Using Dec Arc Models in NINA's Astro-Physics Tools plugin


karl.perkins@sbcglobal.net
 

I'm new to creating models in APCC and I have a few questions:

Using NINA's Astro-Physics Tools plugin, can you create a separate Dec Arc Model for two targets on the same night? For example, I create a Dec Arc Model for my first target, NGC 2244, and it runs until its imaging sequence completes around midnight. I then want to switch to M96 to finish the night. Assuming that the tracking and pointing corrections from the NGC 2244 model are still active in APCC, it seems this will cause problems creating the M96 model. Or if I want to continue imaging M96 without a model, is the NGC 2244 model still active, causing pointing and tracking errors for the M96 imaging sequence?

I posted this on the NINA Discord server, but I haven't received any responses yet.


 

Hi Karl

Don't know if you read the page on this plug-in

If I understand what you want to do, you can create a dec arc model for your first target from within NINA sequencer, and then another dec arc model right before you image M96



On Sat, Feb 26, 2022 at 12:19 PM karl.perkins@... <karl.perkins@...> wrote:
I'm new to creating models in APCC and I have a few questions:

Using NINA's Astro-Physics Tools plugin, can you create a separate Dec Arc Model for two targets on the same night? For example, I create a Dec Arc Model for my first target, NGC 2244, and it runs until its imaging sequence completes around midnight. I then want to switch to M96 to finish the night. Assuming that the tracking and pointing corrections from the NGC 2244 model are still active in APCC, it seems this will cause problems creating the M96 model. Or if I want to continue imaging M96 without a model, is the NGC 2244 model still active, causing pointing and tracking errors for the M96 imaging sequence?

I posted this on the NINA Discord server, but I haven't received any responses yet.



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


karl.perkins@sbcglobal.net
 

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I have read Dale's support page on the Dec Arc Model. I have created a NINA Advance Sequence for the two targets and structured it with Dale's work flow suggestions. I am still unclear if a target's model is turned off in APCC after its sequence completes or if it remains in place after it finishes. 

Karl


Dale Ghent
 

Hi Karl. I’ve been traveling the past few days in places where internet access is not reliably available, so sorry for the delay.  I saw your question on Discord  

The plugin does not disable any currently-programmed model in APCC when making a new one. The question of whether this is needed or not when making a new model, in the context of declination arc models, is a fair question. I think Ray might be the right person to opine on this particular topic. There isn’t a way to turn off an active model that I am aware of. If Ray’s advice is that existing models should be deactivated then perhaps we can work out a way to do that. 

On Feb 26, 2022, at 15:19, karl.perkins@... wrote:

I'm new to creating models in APCC and I have a few questions:

Using NINA's Astro-Physics Tools plugin, can you create a separate Dec Arc Model for two targets on the same night? For example, I create a Dec Arc Model for my first target, NGC 2244, and it runs until its imaging sequence completes around midnight. I then want to switch to M96 to finish the night. Assuming that the tracking and pointing corrections from the NGC 2244 model are still active in APCC, it seems this will cause problems creating the M96 model. Or if I want to continue imaging M96 without a model, is the NGC 2244 model still active, causing pointing and tracking errors for the M96 imaging sequence?

I posted this on the NINA Discord server, but I haven't received any responses yet.


karl.perkins@sbcglobal.net
 

Hi Dale,

 

Thank you for the reply and for all your contributions to NINA. The only way I can see to deactivating a model’s corrections is to uncheck “Enable Pointing Correction” and “Enable Tracking Correction” boxes in the Operations area of the Pointing Model in APCC. I will test an imaging sequence to see what happens.

 

Karl

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dale Ghent
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 10:32 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Using Dec Arc Models in NINA's Astro-Physics Tools plugin

 

Hi Karl. I’ve been traveling the past few days in places where internet access is not reliably available, so sorry for the delay.  I saw your question on Discord  

 

The plugin does not disable any currently-programmed model in APCC when making a new one. The question of whether this is needed or not when making a new model, in the context of declination arc models, is a fair question. I think Ray might be the right person to opine on this particular topic. There isn’t a way to turn off an active model that I am aware of. If Ray’s advice is that existing models should be deactivated then perhaps we can work out a way to do that. 



On Feb 26, 2022, at 15:19, karl.perkins@... wrote:

I'm new to creating models in APCC and I have a few questions:

Using NINA's Astro-Physics Tools plugin, can you create a separate Dec Arc Model for two targets on the same night? For example, I create a Dec Arc Model for my first target, NGC 2244, and it runs until its imaging sequence completes around midnight. I then want to switch to M96 to finish the night. Assuming that the tracking and pointing corrections from the NGC 2244 model are still active in APCC, it seems this will cause problems creating the M96 model. Or if I want to continue imaging M96 without a model, is the NGC 2244 model still active, causing pointing and tracking errors for the M96 imaging sequence?

I posted this on the NINA Discord server, but I haven't received any responses yet.


ap@CaptivePhotons.com
 

I used this again last night, partly for curiosity (as I image guided) since my target rose late, and I have some suggestions.

First a slight tangent: with my SCT i had an old dense full sky model.  I loaded it and did a verify, then did a new small model, and compared the verify - it was not substantially better in most points than a new model's offsets, so I think my old models are not very useful (I tear down and set up nightly, plus it's an SCT with the inherent change over time due to mirror movement).   So I figured a DEC Arc model that was fresh would be better. 

There are some issues that arise that I think, if addressed, might make this a lot better.  Or... if I just missed how to address them in the current setup, let me know.

1) Upon completion, my model did not load.  A popup appeared saying something to that effect, and then disappeared.  Nothing is in the NINA log to indicate that, it just finished (I am at info level).  APPM log just shows "Close model file" and then stopping.  APPC showed "File does not exist", except it does.  But it didn't load, I had to load it by hand.   

0775505 2022-03-04 20:26:44.757:       Info, ProcessVPortCommand, RX from VPort 0: :APCC,61560,ZZ03,C:ProgramDataAstro-PhysicsAPCCModelsApPointData-2022-03-04-200748.pnt#
0775506 2022-03-04 20:26:44.757:       Info, ProcessVPortCommand, APCC Seq=   61560, CMD=ZZ03,C:ProgramDataAstro-PhysicsAPCCModelsApPointData-2022-03-04-200748.pnt#
0775507 2022-03-04 20:26:44.758:       Info,              ZZ, ZZ03,C:ProgramDataAstro-PhysicsAPCCModelsApPointData-2022-03-04-200748.pnt#
0775508 2022-03-04 20:26:44.758:       Info,        REST API, (RX: ZZ03,C:ProgramDataAstro-PhysicsAPCCModelsApPointData-2022-03-04-200748.pnt#), TX: 0,File does not exist#
0775509 2022-03-04 20:26:44.904:      Debug,  Command Thread, TX = ':GOS#:GR#:GD#:pS#:GH#:GS#:GM#:HRG#:HDG#:Rr#:Rd#:GC#:GL#:GG#:GP#'
 
Note the slashes and spaces are not present in the debug line in APPC's log, not sure if that is just a logging artifact or part of the issue.  The file is/was present: 



2) I think that there should be a mechanism to unload, or at least turn off models when you shift to another target or another part of the sky.  I think Ray added more sanity checks, but does it actually disable the model if away from the arc?   Even if it does, it is still somewhat confusing that they are left on.  As to mechanism... 

3) I would really like to suggest that models have names, so that DEC Arc models (which have limited re-use even for people with fixed observatories) can be easily distinguished from full sky models which might be reusable over time.  NINA could pass a name in during creation based on the target requiring no additional user intervention.  Then... 

4) If NINA could have a "Unload" and "Reload" model instruction, with name, it could reload the most recent model of that name (portion).  Addition of a profile name or such might be appropriate for people with multiple OTA's.  At the very least, even if no names or targets, an "Unload" or "Turn off model" would be reassuring, it could go at the end of the target sequence to reduce the human's likelihood of mis-using (by continuing to use) a DEC Arc model later thinking it was a full sky model or some such. 

But the most significant aspect of all this, and a single, solitary data point, is that the model didn't load.  Was that something I may have done to cause it?   Running 1.9.4.1 and 5.50.01 NINA 2.0.0.2049. 

Linwood


Ray Gralak
 

0775508 2022-03-04 20:26:44.758: Info, REST API, (RX: ZZ03,C:ProgramDataAstro-PhysicsAPCCModelsApPointData-2022-03-04-200748.pnt#), TX: 0,File does not exist#
It looks like the backslashes in the filename are gone.

-Ray



-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of ap@...
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 9:47 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Using Dec Arc Models in NINA's Astro-Physics Tools plugin

I used this again last night, partly for curiosity (as I image guided) since my target rose late, and I have some
suggestions.

First a slight tangent: with my SCT i had an old dense full sky model. I loaded it and did a verify, then did a new
small model, and compared the verify - it was not substantially better in most points than a new model's offsets, so
I think my old models are not very useful (I tear down and set up nightly, plus it's an SCT with the inherent change
over time due to mirror movement). So I figured a DEC Arc model that was fresh would be better.

There are some issues that arise that I think, if addressed, might make this a lot better. Or... if I just missed how to
address them in the current setup, let me know.

1) Upon completion, my model did not load. A popup appeared saying something to that effect, and then
disappeared. Nothing is in the NINA log to indicate that, it just finished (I am at info level). APPM log just shows
"Close model file" and then stopping. APPC showed "File does not exist", except it does. But it didn't load, I had
to load it by hand.



0775505 2022-03-04 20:26:44.757: Info, ProcessVPortCommand, RX from VPort 0:
:APCC,61560,ZZ03,C:ProgramDataAstro-PhysicsAPCCModelsApPointData-2022-03-04-200748.pnt#
0775506 2022-03-04 20:26:44.757: Info, ProcessVPortCommand, APCC Seq= 61560,
CMD=ZZ03,C:ProgramDataAstro-PhysicsAPCCModelsApPointData-2022-03-04-200748.pnt#
0775507 2022-03-04 20:26:44.758: Info, ZZ, ZZ03,C:ProgramDataAstro-
PhysicsAPCCModelsApPointData-2022-03-04-200748.pnt#
0775508 2022-03-04 20:26:44.758: Info, REST API, (RX: ZZ03,C:ProgramDataAstro-
PhysicsAPCCModelsApPointData-2022-03-04-200748.pnt#), TX: 0,File does not exist#
0775509 2022-03-04 20:26:44.904: Debug, Command Thread, TX =
':GOS#:GR#:GD#:pS#:GH#:GS#:GM#:HRG#:HDG#:Rr#:Rd#:GC#:GL#:GG#:GP#'


Note the slashes and spaces are not present in the debug line in APPC's log, not sure if that is just a logging
artifact or part of the issue. The file is/was present:



2) I think that there should be a mechanism to unload, or at least turn off models when you shift to another target
or another part of the sky. I think Ray added more sanity checks, but does it actually disable the model if away
from the arc? Even if it does, it is still somewhat confusing that they are left on. As to mechanism...

3) I would really like to suggest that models have names, so that DEC Arc models (which have limited re-use even
for people with fixed observatories) can be easily distinguished from full sky models which might be reusable over
time. NINA could pass a name in during creation based on the target requiring no additional user intervention.
Then...

4) If NINA could have a "Unload" and "Reload" model instruction, with name, it could reload the most recent
model of that name (portion). Addition of a profile name or such might be appropriate for people with multiple
OTA's. At the very least, even if no names or targets, an "Unload" or "Turn off model" would be reassuring, it
could go at the end of the target sequence to reduce the human's likelihood of mis-using (by continuing to use) a
DEC Arc model later thinking it was a full sky model or some such.

But the most significant aspect of all this, and a single, solitary data point, is that the model didn't load. Was that
something I may have done to cause it? Running 1.9.4.1 and 5.50.01 NINA 2.0.0.2049.

Linwood


ap@CaptivePhotons.com
 

On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 12:59 PM, Ray Gralak wrote:
It looks like the backslashes in the filename are gone.

Yes, I mentioned that.  I didn't remove them, it was just the normal process of finishing the Dec Arc model as called from NINA.  If they are gone some combination of NINA (doubtful), APPM or APCC removed them.  

if that's actually what caused the issue -- it could also be another cause and this is an artifact of formatting it into the log.   You are welcome to logs, but quite literally the only thing I could see relevant is the section I put above, NINA and APPM just had nothing much at all as it finished. 

Linwood


Ray Gralak
 

if that's actually what caused the issue -- it could also be another cause and this is an artifact of formatting it into
the log. You are welcome to logs, but quite literally the only thing I could see relevant is the section I put above,
NINA and APPM just had nothing much at all as it finished.
Linwood, I'm running tests using APPM's REST API commands now, which is what NINA uses. If I find something broken, I will fix it and include it in the new release I plan to release today. If I don't see anything, it might be something in NINA.

Which build of NINA are you using?

-Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of ap@...
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 10:04 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Using Dec Arc Models in NINA's Astro-Physics Tools plugin

On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 12:59 PM, Ray Gralak wrote:


It looks like the backslashes in the filename are gone.

Yes, I mentioned that. I didn't remove them, it was just the normal process of finishing the Dec Arc model as
called from NINA. If they are gone some combination of NINA (doubtful), APPM or APCC removed them.



if that's actually what caused the issue -- it could also be another cause and this is an artifact of formatting it into
the log. You are welcome to logs, but quite literally the only thing I could see relevant is the section I put above,
NINA and APPM just had nothing much at all as it finished.

Linwood


ap@CaptivePhotons.com
 

On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 02:06 PM, Ray Gralak wrote:
Which build of NINA are you using?
Running 1.9.4.1 and 5.50.01 NINA 2.0.0.2049 (latest as of yesterday).

And to be fair I only did this once.  If it's clear tonight (likely) I can try again as I want the same target.  Let me know if anything I should change to gather more useful data if so. 

Linwood


Ray Gralak
 

Hi Linwood,

The problem was that the HTTP requests to APCC's REST API were stripping the backslashes when sending from the AP V2 ASCOM driver. This is fixed in v5.50.03 of the ASCOM driver, the link to which I just posted.

-Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of ap@...
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 11:11 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Using Dec Arc Models in NINA's Astro-Physics Tools plugin

On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 02:06 PM, Ray Gralak wrote:


Which build of NINA are you using?

Running 1.9.4.1 and 5.50.01 NINA 2.0.0.2049 (latest as of yesterday).

And to be fair I only did this once. If it's clear tonight (likely) I can try again as I want the same target. Let me know
if anything I should change to gather more useful data if so.

Linwood


ap@CaptivePhotons.com
 

Incredibly fast response, thank you!

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Gralak via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 5:25 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Using Dec Arc Models in NINA's Astro-Physics Tools plugin

Hi Linwood,

The problem was that the HTTP requests to APCC's REST API were stripping the backslashes when sending from the AP V2 ASCOM driver. This is fixed in v5.50.03 of the ASCOM driver, the link to which I just posted.

-Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf
Of ap@...
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 11:11 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Using Dec Arc Models in NINA's Astro-Physics
Tools plugin

On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 02:06 PM, Ray Gralak wrote:


Which build of NINA are you using?

Running 1.9.4.1 and 5.50.01 NINA 2.0.0.2049 (latest as of yesterday).

And to be fair I only did this once. If it's clear tonight (likely) I
can try again as I want the same target. Let me know if anything I should change to gather more useful data if so.

Linwood


ap@CaptivePhotons.com
 

On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 05:25 PM, Ray Gralak wrote:
The problem was that the HTTP requests to APCC's REST API were stripping the backslashes when sending from the AP V2 ASCOM driver. This is fixed in v5.50.03 of the ASCOM driver, the link to which I just posted.
I tested it under the sky tonight, and it did load the model.  It did enabled Pointing and Tracking. 

It did NOT enable Dec Arc tracking.  It was a DEC Arc model run from NINA. 


Ray Gralak
 

It did NOT enable Dec Arc tracking. It was a DEC Arc model run from NINA.
NINA never enabled Dec Arc Tracking because there has never been a way to enable it remotely. You need to manually enable Dec Arc tracking.

-Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of ap@...
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 4:53 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Using Dec Arc Models in NINA's Astro-Physics Tools plugin

On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 05:25 PM, Ray Gralak wrote:


The problem was that the HTTP requests to APCC's REST API were stripping the backslashes when
sending from the AP V2 ASCOM driver. This is fixed in v5.50.03 of the ASCOM driver, the link to which I just
posted.

I tested it under the sky tonight, and it did load the model. It did enabled Pointing and Tracking.

It did NOT enable Dec Arc tracking. It was a DEC Arc model run from NINA.


ap@CaptivePhotons.com
 

On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 09:01 PM, Ray Gralak wrote:
NINA never enabled Dec Arc Tracking because there has never been a way to enable it remotely. You need to manually enable Dec Arc tracking.
OK, then it is working as designed.  :) 

Of course, it seems rather less useful to be able to build them unattended in NINA if you can't enable them without waking up to check a box.  

Linwood


Ray Gralak
 

Of course, it seems rather less useful to be able to build them unattended in NINA if you can't enable them
without waking up to check a box.
The Dec Arc checkbox state is saved, even when tracking rate correction is turned off. So, I disagree that you can't build dec arc models unattended.

Just don't manually disable the Dec Arc checkbox. Right? :-)

-Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of ap@...
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 6:13 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Using Dec Arc Models in NINA's Astro-Physics Tools plugin

On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 09:01 PM, Ray Gralak wrote:


NINA never enabled Dec Arc Tracking because there has never been a way to enable it remotely. You
need to manually enable Dec Arc tracking.

OK, then it is working as designed. :)

Of course, it seems rather less useful to be able to build them unattended in NINA if you can't enable them
without waking up to check a box.

Linwood