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Thor's Helmet Unguided

Terri Zittritsch
 
Edited

I previously posted some questions about unguided imaging, or DEC arc modeling and finally had some chances to try it out at the Winter Star Party.  I typically don't post images here, but after seeing Roland's Helmet I thought I'd throw this out.

This image was taken unguided in Chroma 3nm HA, OIII with 900s and 600s exposures respectively.   I also took shorter exposures for R G and B.    My DEC ARC models for the 3 nights I imaged this object were all less than 60 points and after some tuning of parameters I was getting down to around 20 minutes for the model generation.   I was still using SGP in this case so maybe I'll get faster when I get my arms fully around N.I.N.A.    In any case an example of unguided imaging with the MACH2.    I was hoping to bring my 1100 and 180 to the WSP but my portable pier didn't arrive on time, so this is with the Mach2 and TEC140 at prime focal length with the 3.5" AP 130GTX flattener.   I cropped the corners due to sensor tilt.

https://www.astrobin.com/9gpbbp/


Terri
Brian Valente
 

Hi Terri

You are doing 10-15 minute unguided exposures at 0.75"/pixel? wow that is impressive. Very clean shot,congrats

Brian

On Mon, Mar 27, 2023 at 8:57 AM Terri Zittritsch <theresamarie11@...> wrote:
I previously posted some questions about unguided imaging, or DEC arc modeling and finally had some chances to try it out at the Winter Star Party.  I typically don't post images here, but after seeing Roland's Helmet I thought I'd throw this out.

This image was taken unguided in Chroma 3nm HA, OIII with 900s and 600s exposures respectively.   I also took shorter exposures for R G and B.    My DEC ARC model the the 3 nights I imaged this object were all less than 60 points and after some tuning of parameters I was getting down to around 20 minutes for the model.   I was still using SGP in this case so maybe I'll get faster when I get my arms fully around N.I.N.A.    In any case an example of unguided imaging with the MACH2.    I was hoping to bring my 1100 and 180 to the WSP but my portable pier didn't arrive on time, so I this is with the Mach2 and TEC140 and prime focal length and AP 130GTX flattener.   I cropped the corners due to sensor tilt.

https://www.astrobin.com/9gpbbp/


Terri



--

Stuart
 

Terri, that is a gorgeous shot! I have yet to try the dec-arc model approach on my new Mach2. 

Stuart 

On Mon, Mar 27, 2023 at 12:01 PM Brian Valente <bvalente@...> wrote:
Hi Terri

You are doing 10-15 minute unguided exposures at 0.75"/pixel? wow that is impressive. Very clean shot,congrats

Brian

On Mon, Mar 27, 2023 at 8:57 AM Terri Zittritsch <theresamarie11@...> wrote:
I previously posted some questions about unguided imaging, or DEC arc modeling and finally had some chances to try it out at the Winter Star Party.  I typically don't post images here, but after seeing Roland's Helmet I thought I'd throw this out.

This image was taken unguided in Chroma 3nm HA, OIII with 900s and 600s exposures respectively.   I also took shorter exposures for R G and B.    My DEC ARC model the the 3 nights I imaged this object were all less than 60 points and after some tuning of parameters I was getting down to around 20 minutes for the model.   I was still using SGP in this case so maybe I'll get faster when I get my arms fully around N.I.N.A.    In any case an example of unguided imaging with the MACH2.    I was hoping to bring my 1100 and 180 to the WSP but my portable pier didn't arrive on time, so I this is with the Mach2 and TEC140 and prime focal length and AP 130GTX flattener.   I cropped the corners due to sensor tilt.

https://www.astrobin.com/9gpbbp/


Terri



--

--

Dean Jacobsen
 

Awesome Terri.  Glad to see that your plan for unguided imaging is working well. 

As a nomad imager who sets up his Mach2 new for most every session, going unguided by creating abbreviated models bracketing the declination of the object to be imaged that night has really been a great way to go.  Its been almost three years since i got the Mach2 and I still think that the AP absolute encoder mounts combined with their modeling and control software {APCC & APPM] is the best thing since sliced bread.
--
Dean Jacobsen
Astrobin Image Gallery - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/

Karen Christen
 

Terrific result, Terri!  So glad to hear you’re getting Dec Arc Modeling to work for you.

Karen

AP

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Terri Zittritsch
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 11:36 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: [ap-gto] Thor's Helmet Unguided

 

[Edited Message Follows]

I previously posted some questions about unguided imaging, or DEC arc modeling and finally had some chances to try it out at the Winter Star Party.  I typically don't post images here, but after seeing Roland's Helmet I thought I'd throw this out.

This image was taken unguided in Chroma 3nm HA, OIII with 900s and 600s exposures respectively.   I also took shorter exposures for R G and B.    My DEC ARC models for the 3 nights I imaged this object were all less than 60 points and after some tuning of parameters I was getting down to around 20 minutes for the model generation.   I was still using SGP in this case so maybe I'll get faster when I get my arms fully around N.I.N.A.    In any case an example of unguided imaging with the MACH2.    I was hoping to bring my 1100 and 180 to the WSP but my portable pier didn't arrive on time, so this is with the Mach2 and TEC140 at prime focal length with the 3.5" AP 130GTX flattener.   I cropped the corners due to sensor tilt.

https://www.astrobin.com/9gpbbp/


Terri


--
Karen Christen
Astro-Physics
Roland Christen
 

You got some good resolution on that bubble mass. 

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Terri Zittritsch <theresamarie11@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Mar 27, 2023 5:57 am
Subject: [ap-gto] Thor's Helmet Unguided

I previously posted some questions about unguided imaging, or DEC arc modeling and finally had some chances to try it out at the Winter Star Party.  I typically don't post images here, but after seeing Roland's Helmet I thought I'd throw this out.

This image was taken unguided in Chroma 3nm HA, OIII with 900s and 600s exposures respectively.   I also took shorter exposures for R G and B.    My DEC ARC model the the 3 nights I imaged this object were all less than 60 points and after some tuning of parameters I was getting down to around 20 minutes for the model.   I was still using SGP in this case so maybe I'll get faster when I get my arms fully around N.I.N.A.    In any case an example of unguided imaging with the MACH2.    I was hoping to bring my 1100 and 180 to the WSP but my portable pier didn't arrive on time, so I this is with the Mach2 and TEC140 and prime focal length and AP 130GTX flattener.   I cropped the corners due to sensor tilt.

https://www.astrobin.com/9gpbbp/


Terri

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics
Terri Zittritsch
 

Thank you all for the kind words.    I love technology, having spent the better part of my life developing it, and for me the journey is probably more than 1/2 of the fun in this hobby.    Learning how to do, and then execute, Dec arc modeling was satisfying.    The beautiful sights are an added benefit.  

best,
Terri
Roland Christen
 

Hi Terri,

I know you had trouble originally with the internal USB 3 extension inside the Mach2, for downloading images from your ZWO 6200MM camera. Is that issue resolved for you? I have used both 12 volt power and USB3 thru the mount myself and have not had any problem with images downloading. I even have a 10 ft extension to my computer from the back of the mount and it works fine. Up at the camera I use the USB hub inside the camera for attaching the filter wheel and the Lodestar guide camera, so only one signal wire goes to the mount and then out the bottom to the computer. It works very well, no problem ever.

Roland


-----Original Message-----
From: Terri Zittritsch <theresamarie11@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Mar 27, 2023 1:41 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Thor's Helmet Unguided

Thank you all for the kind words.    I love technology, having spent the better part of my life developing it, and for me the journey is probably more than 1/2 of the fun in this hobby.    Learning how to do, and then execute, Dec arc modeling was satisfying.    The beautiful sights are an added benefit.  

best,
Terri

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics
ROBERT WYNNE
 

This image is just plain excellent. -Best, Robert

On 03/27/2023 9:35 AM Terri Zittritsch <theresamarie11@...> wrote:


[Edited Message Follows]

I previously posted some questions about unguided imaging, or DEC arc modeling and finally had some chances to try it out at the Winter Star Party.  I typically don't post images here, but after seeing Roland's Helmet I thought I'd throw this out.

This image was taken unguided in Chroma 3nm HA, OIII with 900s and 600s exposures respectively.   I also took shorter exposures for R G and B.    My DEC ARC models for the 3 nights I imaged this object were all less than 60 points and after some tuning of parameters I was getting down to around 20 minutes for the model generation.   I was still using SGP in this case so maybe I'll get faster when I get my arms fully around N.I.N.A.    In any case an example of unguided imaging with the MACH2.    I was hoping to bring my 1100 and 180 to the WSP but my portable pier didn't arrive on time, so this is with the Mach2 and TEC140 at prime focal length with the 3.5" AP 130GTX flattener.   I cropped the corners due to sensor tilt.

https://www.astrobin.com/9gpbbp/


Terri

Terri Zittritsch
 

On Mon, Mar 27, 2023 at 09:03 PM, Roland Christen wrote:
Hi Terri,
 
I know you had trouble originally with the internal USB 3 extension inside the Mach2, for downloading images from your ZWO 6200MM camera. Is that issue resolved for you? I have used both 12 volt power and USB3 thru the mount myself and have not had any problem with images downloading. I even have a 10 ft extension to my computer from the back of the mount and it works fine. Up at the camera I use the USB hub inside the camera for attaching the filter wheel and the Lodestar guide camera, so only one signal wire goes to the mount and then out the bottom to the computer. It works very well, no problem ever.
 
Roland
Hi Roland, no troubles at all with the 6200MM lately.    I am using the active USB3 cable that Marge sent me and this goes to a 6" jumper, also from Marge, and into the mount RA axis.   It must be 10 or 15' long from the repeater electronics.  It's longer than you can normally drive USB3 reliably and it's longer than I need, but I haven't found a need to replace it.   It also must drive in both directions from that repeater and on the mount side it only drives that 6" jumper to the mount.    At the top side I have a short 18" USB3 cable going to my powered USB3 hub.    I run my camera and focuser from the hub.    I can do this all night long at any temp and no download issues (both Florida and Vt).    Now that I'm not guiding, I could get rid of the hub and use the 2nd USB2 on the camera for the focuser.     Without the USB3 active cable, it would not run at USB3 speeds at all.   As I recall, the early mounts also had a crossed signal in USB3 that caused an issue which you fixed.     I do think my testing of USB3 was after the crossed signal fix, because I don't think it would work at all before that.   
Are you saying you're running a non-active USB3 cable now?    I could not do that.  In fact even a 3' non-active standard USB3 cable would fail.   When I did all of this testing back in 2020 it was with an ASI1600MM pro camera.    I tested it 6 ways to Sunday, so to speak, with many different types (brands and lengths) of USB3 cable and configurations on the top side.   I did always use a Lenovo laptop which was my astro-device and for the testing it was plugged in (not battery).  Not super fast but long battery life, although at home it's always plugged in.   I do use a mini-PC out at the setup now, I can try that driving the setup without an active cable. 

The only time I see a USB3 limitation in speed is when I do planetary imaging now.     I think the planetary imaging, with the high frame rate, might be stressing out things a bit more.   I haven't actually calculated the bandwidth but I can try to figure it out if you like.    I use both an ASI290 mono and ASI224 color camera at USB3 speeds.    I had some issues initially with signaling through the mount so I just run a cable off the camera directly to my computer.     I didn't spend a lot of time on this to try and debug it but can take a look at it as we have plenty of cloudy nights this time of year.    

Last night we had some rare clear skies and I was working on de-tilting my sensor with the ASI tilt plate using shims instead of the screws.  So far so good.  I have it dialed in pretty well, at least according to the aberration inspector in hocus focus.    I can run the mount and camera around the sky in different orientations and get similar results in the inspector.   But I've noted that rotating the camera by loosening the FF dovetail I get different results. So don't think I have sag, I think I have a small tilt on my receiver to the draw tube or the whole draw tube/focuser has a small amount of tilt.    This probably means once I get that error out, I'll have to go back and adjust tilt on the camera again.      

best,
Terri
Roland Christen
 


Are you saying you're running a non-active USB3 cable now?
Yes, I use a non-active USB3. I have also used a USB2 cable and it works well also. No problem downloading the full frame camera, just a second or two slower.

Roland


-----Original Message-----
From: Terri Zittritsch <theresamarie11@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Mar 29, 2023 3:49 am
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Thor's Helmet Unguided

On Mon, Mar 27, 2023 at 09:03 PM, Roland Christen wrote:
Hi Terri,
 
I know you had trouble originally with the internal USB 3 extension inside the Mach2, for downloading images from your ZWO 6200MM camera. Is that issue resolved for you? I have used both 12 volt power and USB3 thru the mount myself and have not had any problem with images downloading. I even have a 10 ft extension to my computer from the back of the mount and it works fine. Up at the camera I use the USB hub inside the camera for attaching the filter wheel and the Lodestar guide camera, so only one signal wire goes to the mount and then out the bottom to the computer. It works very well, no problem ever.
 
Roland
Hi Roland, no troubles at all with the 6200MM lately.    I am using the active USB3 cable that Marge sent me and this goes to a 6" jumper, also from Marge, and into the mount RA axis.   It must be 10 or 15' long from the repeater electronics.  It's longer than you can normally drive USB3 reliably and it's longer than I need, but I haven't found a need to replace it.   It also must drive in both directions from that repeater and on the mount side it only drives that 6" jumper to the mount.    At the top side I have a short 18" USB3 cable going to my powered USB3 hub.    I run my camera and focuser from the hub.    I can do this all night long at any temp and no download issues (both Florida and Vt).    Now that I'm not guiding, I could get rid of the hub and use the 2nd USB2 on the camera for the focuser.     Without the USB3 active cable, it would not run at USB3 speeds at all.   As I recall, the early mounts also had a crossed signal in USB3 that caused an issue which you fixed.     I do think my testing of USB3 was after the crossed signal fix, because I don't think it would work at all before that.   
Are you saying you're running a non-active USB3 cable now?    I could not do that.  In fact even a 3' non-active standard USB3 cable would fail.   When I did all of this testing back in 2020 it was with an ASI1600MM pro camera.    I tested it 6 ways to Sunday, so to speak, with many different types (brands and lengths) of USB3 cable and configurations on the top side.   I did always use a Lenovo laptop which was my astro-device and for the testing it was plugged in (not battery).  Not super fast but long battery life, although at home it's always plugged in.   I do use a mini-PC out at the setup now, I can try that driving the setup without an active cable. 

The only time I see a USB3 limitation in speed is when I do planetary imaging now.     I think the planetary imaging, with the high frame rate, might be stressing out things a bit more.   I haven't actually calculated the bandwidth but I can try to figure it out if you like.    I use both an ASI290 mono and ASI224 color camera at USB3 speeds.    I had some issues initially with signaling through the mount so I just run a cable off the camera directly to my computer.     I didn't spend a lot of time on this to try and debug it but can take a look at it as we have plenty of cloudy nights this time of year.    

Last night we had some rare clear skies and I was working on de-tilting my sensor with the ASI tilt plate using shims instead of the screws.  So far so good.  I have it dialed in pretty well, at least according to the aberration inspector in hocus focus.    I can run the mount and camera around the sky in different orientations and get similar results in the inspector.   But I've noted that rotating the camera by loosening the FF dovetail I get different results. So don't think I have sag, I think I have a small tilt on my receiver to the draw tube or the whole draw tube/focuser has a small amount of tilt.    This probably means once I get that error out, I'll have to go back and adjust tilt on the camera again.      

best,
Terri






--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics
Greg McCall
 

Re non active usb3, what is the cable length between the usb port and the device?
Is it just a computer one end and a camera the other end?

I found that it needed to be short taking into account of the Mach2 internal cable. So a very short cable down to an intel NUC at the tripod and very short cable upto the powered hub on the OTA. 

On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 at 7:51 am, Roland Christen via groups.io <chris1011=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

Are you saying you're running a non-active USB3 cable now?
Yes, I use a non-active USB3. I have also used a USB2 cable and it works well also. No problem downloading the full frame camera, just a second or two slower.

Roland


-----Original Message-----
From: Terri Zittritsch <theresamarie11@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Mar 29, 2023 3:49 am
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Thor's Helmet Unguided

On Mon, Mar 27, 2023 at 09:03 PM, Roland Christen wrote:
Hi Terri,
 
I know you had trouble originally with the internal USB 3 extension inside the Mach2, for downloading images from your ZWO 6200MM camera. Is that issue resolved for you? I have used both 12 volt power and USB3 thru the mount myself and have not had any problem with images downloading. I even have a 10 ft extension to my computer from the back of the mount and it works fine. Up at the camera I use the USB hub inside the camera for attaching the filter wheel and the Lodestar guide camera, so only one signal wire goes to the mount and then out the bottom to the computer. It works very well, no problem ever.
 
Roland
Hi Roland, no troubles at all with the 6200MM lately.    I am using the active USB3 cable that Marge sent me and this goes to a 6" jumper, also from Marge, and into the mount RA axis.   It must be 10 or 15' long from the repeater electronics.  It's longer than you can normally drive USB3 reliably and it's longer than I need, but I haven't found a need to replace it.   It also must drive in both directions from that repeater and on the mount side it only drives that 6" jumper to the mount.    At the top side I have a short 18" USB3 cable going to my powered USB3 hub.    I run my camera and focuser from the hub.    I can do this all night long at any temp and no download issues (both Florida and Vt).    Now that I'm not guiding, I could get rid of the hub and use the 2nd USB2 on the camera for the focuser.     Without the USB3 active cable, it would not run at USB3 speeds at all.   As I recall, the early mounts also had a crossed signal in USB3 that caused an issue which you fixed.     I do think my testing of USB3 was after the crossed signal fix, because I don't think it would work at all before that.   
Are you saying you're running a non-active USB3 cable now?    I could not do that.  In fact even a 3' non-active standard USB3 cable would fail.   When I did all of this testing back in 2020 it was with an ASI1600MM pro camera.    I tested it 6 ways to Sunday, so to speak, with many different types (brands and lengths) of USB3 cable and configurations on the top side.   I did always use a Lenovo laptop which was my astro-device and for the testing it was plugged in (not battery).  Not super fast but long battery life, although at home it's always plugged in.   I do use a mini-PC out at the setup now, I can try that driving the setup without an active cable. 

The only time I see a USB3 limitation in speed is when I do planetary imaging now.     I think the planetary imaging, with the high frame rate, might be stressing out things a bit more.   I haven't actually calculated the bandwidth but I can try to figure it out if you like.    I use both an ASI290 mono and ASI224 color camera at USB3 speeds.    I had some issues initially with signaling through the mount so I just run a cable off the camera directly to my computer.     I didn't spend a lot of time on this to try and debug it but can take a look at it as we have plenty of cloudy nights this time of year.    

Last night we had some rare clear skies and I was working on de-tilting my sensor with the ASI tilt plate using shims instead of the screws.  So far so good.  I have it dialed in pretty well, at least according to the aberration inspector in hocus focus.    I can run the mount and camera around the sky in different orientations and get similar results in the inspector.   But I've noted that rotating the camera by loosening the FF dovetail I get different results. So don't think I have sag, I think I have a small tilt on my receiver to the draw tube or the whole draw tube/focuser has a small amount of tilt.    This probably means once I get that error out, I'll have to go back and adjust tilt on the camera again.      

best,
Terri







--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics

Chris White
 

Excellent Terri!  Stars look great, I'm glad to hear you are making so much progress on getting your system where you want it. 
Terri Zittritsch
 

Thanks Chris!! 

Roland,
On the internal cabling as I mentioned in an e-mail, with a newer mini computer (Mele quieter 3) the USB3 is working with a 6' non-active cable to the mount.   All else was the same in the setup and I used the highest USB throughput setting on the ASI6200!   This is good news and I'll be putting the active cable away.   Thanks for suggesting I take another look!   I think USB2 uses different signals in the cable unless you're saying the USB3 signal downgrades to USB2 speeds for you.  All of my USB2 gear worked.    With the ASI1600 that would not work for me, I'd just get failures and lockups as I recall and today can't test it further because I've sold the 1600 and replaced it with the 6200.   I suspect it may just be related to how much drive, or which USB3 chipset, a computer uses or who's IP is used to design the chipset.    Some may work well and others like the T460 might be tighter to the spec with little wiggle room.   


Terri
Roland Christen
 


unless you're saying the USB3 signal downgrades to USB2 speeds for you.
No, I don't downgrade the USB3 signal.

Roland


-----Original Message-----
From: Terri Zittritsch <theresamarie11@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Thu, Mar 30, 2023 3:28 am
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Thor's Helmet Unguided

Thanks Chris!! 

Roland,
On the internal cabling as I mentioned in an e-mail, with a newer mini computer (Mele quieter 3) the USB3 is working with a 6' non-active cable to the mount.   All else was the same in the setup and I used the highest USB throughput setting on the ASI6200!   This is good news and I'll be putting the active cable away.   Thanks for suggesting I take another look!   I think USB2 uses different signals in the cable unless you're saying the USB3 signal downgrades to USB2 speeds for you.  All of my USB2 gear worked.    With the ASI1600 that would not work for me, I'd just get failures and lockups as I recall and today can't test it further because I've sold the 1600 and replaced it with the 6200.   I suspect it may just be related to how much drive, or which USB3 chipset, a computer uses or who's IP is used to design the chipset.    Some may work well and others like the T460 might be tighter to the spec with little wiggle room.   


Terri

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics

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