locked Our blinding blaring world


thefamily90 Phillips
 

The way to work on musk is to invite him to a Dark Sky star party and let him see what a true non-polluted sky looks like. That’s how you change someone’s mind.

Jim P

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Roland Christen via groups.io <chris1011@...>
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 11:42:55 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Our blinding blaring world
 

Elon Musk’s increasing attempts to ruin it for every serious observer, over the entire planet.
Speaking of Elon, did everyone see yesterday's APOD? https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap220614.html

Last night I was showing someone how to image with a scope and astrocamera. He was looking up at the sky and at one point said "hey look, a satellite!". All I could think was GRRRRRR.

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Zeglinski <J.Zeglinski@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jun 15, 2022 10:03 am
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Our blinding blaring world

Fernando,
 
    Just to be clear – pun intended – you are saying ... You wouldn’t do any deep sky VIEWING from your downtown area?   How about deep sky imaging using decent Narrow Band filters?
 
    I do that, but always substitute for the standard Luminance clear filter with a Hutech IDAS- P2,  for Monochrome CCD’s,  preserving the SII line, (which the -D2 version for DSLR/One-shot blocks out). That effectively blocks out city light pollution sources on its own, in tri-colour imaging. Even the best expensive ones pay for themselves in no time, at the cost of gas to drive to a dark site.
 
    I image only from within a major metropolitan city, (population 6.3 million),  with my AP-1200/RC-14.5 often pointed only about 20 degrees DIRECTLY above a row of High Pressure Sodium vapour lamp towers, high up on a nearby elevated highway, with a wall of condo towers as their background. Like your home base, there are also a few highway LED billboards, which are insignificant compared to the other polluters, as shown in my backyard photo.
  – And yet I still get  excellent 5 to 15 minute  “unguided”, unprocessed, single exposure images of The Pelican, Eagle, Horsey Head, and Rosette.
 
    I originally despaired that it would seem impossible, but now I ... “never leave the city” ...   for what is ironically called our club’s  “dark spot”, in a distant provincial forest clearing. Nice to run a session from the comforts of home in any season, away from dew, cold, and mosquitoes,  with good food & fine music, as I “observe” the screen’s captured images.  There is no escape from sky glow – unless you stick with Narrow Band imaging, which surprisingly is still very rewarding, for now, in spite of Elon Musk’s increasing attempts to ruin it for every serious observer, over the entire planet.
 
    So, don’t give up on city based observing.
Joe Z.

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--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Joe Zeglinski
 

Unfortunately,
 
    Showing Elon Musk the twinkle of stars, he would only see shimmering bright dollar signs.
 
Joe
 
From: thefamily90 Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 11:58 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Our blinding blaring world
 
The way to work on musk is to invite him to a Dark Sky star party and let him see what a true non-polluted sky looks like. That’s how you change someone’s mind.
 
Jim P


thefamily90 Phillips
 

Well, my suggestion might not work. I can understand that. But throwing insults definitely won’t work I can assure you of that.

Jim

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Joe Zeglinski <J.Zeglinski@...>
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 12:18:51 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Our blinding blaring world
 
Unfortunately,
 
    Showing Elon Musk the twinkle of stars, he would only see shimmering bright dollar signs.
 
Joe
 
From: thefamily90 Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 11:58 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Our blinding blaring world
 
The way to work on musk is to invite him to a Dark Sky star party and let him see what a true non-polluted sky looks like. That’s how you change someone’s mind.
 
Jim P


turkeybuzzard75
 




On Jun 15, 2022, at 12:33, thefamily90 Phillips <thefamily90@...> wrote:


Well, my suggestion might not work. I can understand that. But throwing insults definitely won’t work I can assure you of that.

Jim

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Joe Zeglinski <J.Zeglinski@...>
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 12:18:51 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Our blinding blaring world
 
Unfortunately,
 
    Showing Elon Musk the twinkle of stars, he would only see shimmering bright dollar signs.
 
Joe
 
From: thefamily90 Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 11:58 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Our blinding blaring world
 
The way to work on musk is to invite him to a Dark Sky star party and let him see what a true non-polluted sky looks like. That’s how you change someone’s mind.
 
Jim P


ap@CaptivePhotons.com
 

On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 12:33 PM, thefamily90 Phillips wrote:
Well, my suggestion might not work. I can understand that. But throwing insults definitely won’t work I can assure you of that.
I doubt he would consider this an insult: Someone needs to figure out how to make it a part of the legacy he desires.  I doubt he really needs or even wants more money, he is building a legacy.  If you can make him think that improving dark skies is an important part of that, he could be a real ally in terrestrial light pollution. Even better if he can somehow leverage his energy sectors to do it (AI driven streetlights maybe, only on when someone is in the area).

I doubt you will ever get him to change his mind on starlink as brining internet to the 3rd world is a big part of his identity.

The problem is that astronomers are no one favorite group to protect, we are not impoverished, downtrodden (other than by lights), neglected, discriminated against or endangered. Figure out how to justify a Nobel Peace Prize for solving light pollution and you will have more than one billionaire competing to get it done. 

Linwood


Roland Christen
 

If we miss an incoming asteroid because there is so much other crap floating around out there, then all will be moot.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: ap@... <ap@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jun 15, 2022 12:00 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Our blinding blaring world

On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 12:33 PM, thefamily90 Phillips wrote:
Well, my suggestion might not work. I can understand that. But throwing insults definitely won’t work I can assure you of that.
I doubt he would consider this an insult: Someone needs to figure out how to make it a part of the legacy he desires.  I doubt he really needs or even wants more money, he is building a legacy.  If you can make him think that improving dark skies is an important part of that, he could be a real ally in terrestrial light pollution. Even better if he can somehow leverage his energy sectors to do it (AI driven streetlights maybe, only on when someone is in the area).

I doubt you will ever get him to change his mind on starlink as brining internet to the 3rd world is a big part of his identity.

The problem is that astronomers are no one favorite group to protect, we are not impoverished, downtrodden (other than by lights), neglected, discriminated against or endangered. Figure out how to justify a Nobel Peace Prize for solving light pollution and you will have more than one billionaire competing to get it done. 

Linwood

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Jim H
 

Not sure if this is appropriate for this group but good to know we can make a difference:

Dark-sky metropolis?
While it is easier to enact changes in 
smaller communities, important work 
is happening in major cities, too. In 
September 2021, Pittsburgh, U.S., 
adopted a dark-sky lighting ordinance 
that will replace 35,000 streetlights 
with IDA-compliant fixtures and 
install around 8,000 new ones. This 
is thanks to the work of IDA advocate 
Diane Turnshek. She tirelessly pursued conversations with politicians 
and city officials and helped draft the 
ordinance, proving that one passionate person can make a significant 
difference in the fight against light 
pollution. 



On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 10:44 AM Roland Christen via groups.io <chris1011=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
If we miss an incoming asteroid because there is so much other crap floating around out there, then all will be moot.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: ap@... <ap@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jun 15, 2022 12:00 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Our blinding blaring world

On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 12:33 PM, thefamily90 Phillips wrote:
Well, my suggestion might not work. I can understand that. But throwing insults definitely won’t work I can assure you of that.
I doubt he would consider this an insult: Someone needs to figure out how to make it a part of the legacy he desires.  I doubt he really needs or even wants more money, he is building a legacy.  If you can make him think that improving dark skies is an important part of that, he could be a real ally in terrestrial light pollution. Even better if he can somehow leverage his energy sectors to do it (AI driven streetlights maybe, only on when someone is in the area).

I doubt you will ever get him to change his mind on starlink as brining internet to the 3rd world is a big part of his identity.

The problem is that astronomers are no one favorite group to protect, we are not impoverished, downtrodden (other than by lights), neglected, discriminated against or endangered. Figure out how to justify a Nobel Peace Prize for solving light pollution and you will have more than one billionaire competing to get it done. 

Linwood

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Roland Christen
 

Hurray for Pittsburgh! Great city for sure.

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim H <jamesnhead@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jun 15, 2022 9:18 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Our blinding blaring world

Not sure if this is appropriate for this group but good to know we can make a difference:

Dark-sky metropolis?
While it is easier to enact changes in 
smaller communities, important work 
is happening in major cities, too. In 
September 2021, Pittsburgh, U.S., 
adopted a dark-sky lighting ordinance 
that will replace 35,000 streetlights 
with IDA-compliant fixtures and 
install around 8,000 new ones. This 
is thanks to the work of IDA advocate 
Diane Turnshek. She tirelessly pursued conversations with politicians 
and city officials and helped draft the 
ordinance, proving that one passionate person can make a significant 
difference in the fight against light 
pollution. 



On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 10:44 AM Roland Christen via groups.io <chris1011=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
If we miss an incoming asteroid because there is so much other crap floating around out there, then all will be moot.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: ap@... <ap@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jun 15, 2022 12:00 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Our blinding blaring world

On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 12:33 PM, thefamily90 Phillips wrote:
Well, my suggestion might not work. I can understand that. But throwing insults definitely won’t work I can assure you of that.
I doubt he would consider this an insult: Someone needs to figure out how to make it a part of the legacy he desires.  I doubt he really needs or even wants more money, he is building a legacy.  If you can make him think that improving dark skies is an important part of that, he could be a real ally in terrestrial light pollution. Even better if he can somehow leverage his energy sectors to do it (AI driven streetlights maybe, only on when someone is in the area).

I doubt you will ever get him to change his mind on starlink as brining internet to the 3rd world is a big part of his identity.

The problem is that astronomers are no one favorite group to protect, we are not impoverished, downtrodden (other than by lights), neglected, discriminated against or endangered. Figure out how to justify a Nobel Peace Prize for solving light pollution and you will have more than one billionaire competing to get it done. 

Linwood

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


M Hambrick
 

As bad as the light pollution is, the images that we as amateurs can produce today compared to just a few decades ago when light pollution was supposedly much lower is absolutely amazing. If you have some old Astronomy or Sky & Telescope magazines around from the mid-1980's, take a look at the images in the reader photos sections and compare them to what you see today on this forum. There is no comparison. The images posted (by others, not me) on this forum are even better than anything that came from the professional observatories back then.

Maybe another opportunity to reduce light pollution will present itself as a result of the push to go to electric cars. There is no way the power grid can support the sudden spike in electricity consumption every night when millions of electric car owners get home from work and plug their car into the charger overnight. One way that we astronomers may be able to take advantage of this is to propose to the local governments that they could save electricity by reducing the nighttime street lighting. In reality, this would not offset the car charger use, but it would give the politicians a chance to say that they are doing something about it. 

Mike

Mike


Roland Christen
 

A few fun facts about electric car energy useage:

Marj and I commute to work between 18 and 20 miles total every day. We drive a Chevy Volt that uses about 4 kwhrs for that distance. We plug it in every night and it costs us about 48 cents to go that distance. We charge at 8 amps, 110 volts overnight (880 watts) for a few hours and it's full and ready to go next morning. Overnight rates can be very low or even minus if you set up a special useage plan with Com Ed (we don't at this point). Most of our local electric power comes from the nearby nuclear plant and from wind power in Northern Illinois and Iowa.

Land usage for solar panels versus biofuels: Ethanol yields 462 gallons per acre from 165 bushels of corn. An acre of sugar cane can produce approximate 35 ton yield or about 560 gallons of ethanol. Here in Wisconsin there is a 20 megawatt solar farm on 140 acres which yields approximately 700 kwhrs per day per acre, enough to provide propulsion to 175 Chevy volts to go 20 miles each day. The 462 gallons produced by corn on that same acre occurs just once per year, so it would amount to 1.28 gallons per day. At 20 mpg and 20 miles of commute, this same acre of corn would power 1.28 Chevy Volts each day.

Most people don't drive more than 30 miles per day per person, so it really won't tax our electric distribution system for the majority of users. Commercial, agricultural and industrial needs of course are different, but even here some electric propulsion can result in cost savings. For the average daily commuter the amount of electric use would amount to less than what a toaster oven consumes.

During the day our Astro-Physics plant is connected to Com Ed thru an 800 amp 3 phase power line. We use a lot of electricity during manufacturing, running all the CNC machines and other plant equipment. At the end of the day when everyone goes home, the power demand drops to a small fraction, but the local nuclear plant is still squirting the current into the lines (they cannot run reduced or no load), so the power is redirected to lights all over the county, including farm fields with mercury vapor lamps. That wasted power could be redirected to charge electric transportation. All it takes is for us to develop a smart grid that can redirect energy to were it is needed. You can already set your electric vehicle to charge at off-peak hours automatically to take advantage of lower rates. We need to do that nationally. Then there would be no need to light up the farm fields in the rural areas here in the Midwest.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: M Hambrick <mhambrick563@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jun 15, 2022 9:56 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Our blinding blaring world

As bad as the light pollution is, the images that we as amateurs can produce today compared to just a few decades ago when light pollution was supposedly much lower is absolutely amazing. If you have some old Astronomy or Sky & Telescope magazines around from the mid-1980's, take a look at the images in the reader photos sections and compare them to what you see today on this forum. There is no comparison. The images posted (by others, not me) on this forum are even better than anything that came from the professional observatories back then.

Maybe another opportunity to reduce light pollution will present itself as a result of the push to go to electric cars. There is no way the power grid can support the sudden spike in electricity consumption every night when millions of electric car owners get home from work and plug their car into the charger overnight. One way that we astronomers may be able to take advantage of this is to propose to the local governments that they could save electricity by reducing the nighttime street lighting. In reality, this would not offset the car charger use, but it would give the politicians a chance to say that they are doing something about it. 

Mike

Mike

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Mike Dodd
 

On 6/16/2022 11:08 AM, Roland Christen via groups.io wrote:
At the end of the day when everyone goes home, the power demand drops to a small fraction, but the local nuclear plant is still squirting the current into the lines (they cannot run reduced or no load) so the power is redirected to lights all over the county, including farm
fields with mercury vapor lamps.


Here in Virginia, Dominion Energy has a pumped storage station: <https://www.dominionenergy.com/projects-and-facilities/hydroelectric-power-facilities-and-projects/bath-county-pumped-storage-station> At night, power from a nuclear station runs the turbines backward to pump water from a lower reservoir to an upper reservoir. During the day, water flows from the upper reservoir to spin turbines and generate electricity.

Not as efficient as primary power generation (and impossible in flat Illinois), but at least it's not lighting up farm fields.

And boy, is the sky dark in Bath County, Virginia! Been there, looked up. :-)
--- Mike


Karen Christen
 

Well, Astronuts, I have to cut off this thread along with the companion thread with subject, "The other side of the story". We've begun to receive complaints that the discussion has veered away from astronomy and enjoying the night skies. Thank you for the lively conversation. No further posts on these 2 threads will be approved.
Karen
AP


--
Karen Christen
Astro-Physics