More basic mount questions


michael mccann
 

Hi again
Getting a feel for AP1600 clutch methods. It seems like the AP clutch system is more like the Losmandy G11 than the iOptron iEq30 Pro ( which in reality is how the iEq30 mount engages the worm gear).
So when achieving balance on the G11 I would loosen the clutches to balance RA and Dec. Your manual says to keep the clutches hand tight on both axis. Disengage the gear mesh as one balances.
My question is even though you disengage the gear mesh, wouldn’t you still want to disengage the clutch on the axis your balancing? So you know your design better, what am I missing?

Cheers
Mike


Roland Christen
 

I-Optrons don't have clutches, they only have gear release.

The 1600 has clutches which allow basic balancing. For fine balance you can use the gear release knob, but this should be done only in Park3 position for both axes precision balancing!
Please read the manual to keep from damaging your worm wheels

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: michael mccann via groups.io <mmccawsprojects@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Sep 29, 2021 11:22 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] More basic mount questions

Hi again
Getting a feel for AP1600 clutch methods. It seems like the AP clutch system is more like the Losmandy G11 than the iOptron iEq30 Pro ( which in reality is how the iEq30 mount engages the worm gear). 
So when achieving balance on the G11 I would loosen the clutches to balance RA and Dec.  Your manual says to keep the clutches hand tight on both axis. Disengage the gear mesh as one balances.
My question is even though you disengage the gear mesh, wouldn’t you still want to disengage the clutch on the axis your balancing? So you know your design better, what am I missing?

Cheers
Mike






--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Thomas Giannaccini
 

I’m a new owner of a used AP 1200 GTO mount but I will do my best to tell you my experience. 

So park 3 is where you start. Weights on an off in that position with clutches tight. In my case tight means finger tight plus a little more. So snug but not wrenched down. Loose to me means just loose. So from tight where it’s finger tight plus some to loose is probably 1-2 full turns. Maybe less.

So weights on then just barely loose to get a feel for the weight and how it will act. My AP 1100 has a fair amount of natural friction in it even with the clutches loose. So in my case this can make it difficult to determine what is exactly balanced. So this is what I did. I intentionally changed the weighting enough so I could tell what out of balance felt like. But I kept a tight grip on my OTA so there were no mishaps.

My OTA says 32 pounds but then there is the diagonal plus eyepiece, a GLP and whatever else. I ended up with 48# of weight and it feels balanced enough. With the friction that’s natural to the system it can only be tuned so much. The book says err on the side of more weight so that’s how I handled it. Once you think you’re close you can try loosening the clutches a little more to see if that will help you feel the balance point.

You have a different mount but I hope this will give you some idea.

Hope that helps.


Tom




On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 10:22 PM michael mccann via groups.io <mmccawsprojects=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi again
Getting a feel for AP1600 clutch methods. It seems like the AP clutch system is more like the Losmandy G11 than the iOptron iEq30 Pro ( which in reality is how the iEq30 mount engages the worm gear). 
So when achieving balance on the G11 I would loosen the clutches to balance RA and Dec.  Your manual says to keep the clutches hand tight on both axis. Disengage the gear mesh as one balances.
My question is even though you disengage the gear mesh, wouldn’t you still want to disengage the clutch on the axis your balancing? So you know your design better, what am I missing?

Cheers
Mike






--
CN: HasAnyoneSeenMyNeblua


michael mccann
 

Thanks Rolando
I see I skipped the preliminary balancing section.

Cheers 


On Sep 29, 2021, at 10:43 PM, Roland Christen via groups.io <chris1011@...> wrote:


I-Optrons don't have clutches, they only have gear release.

The 1600 has clutches which allow basic balancing. For fine balance you can use the gear release knob, but this should be done only in Park3 position for both axes precision balancing!
Please read the manual to keep from damaging your worm wheels

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: michael mccann via groups.io <mmccawsprojects@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Sep 29, 2021 11:22 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] More basic mount questions

Hi again
Getting a feel for AP1600 clutch methods. It seems like the AP clutch system is more like the Losmandy G11 than the iOptron iEq30 Pro ( which in reality is how the iEq30 mount engages the worm gear). 
So when achieving balance on the G11 I would loosen the clutches to balance RA and Dec.  Your manual says to keep the clutches hand tight on both axis. Disengage the gear mesh as one balances.
My question is even though you disengage the gear mesh, wouldn’t you still want to disengage the clutch on the axis your balancing? So you know your design better, what am I missing?

Cheers
Mike






--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Thomas Giannaccini
 

My mount is an AP 1100GTO. Spell check changed it.

To


On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 10:50 PM Thomas Giannaccini via groups.io <tgiann3=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
I’m a new owner of a used AP 1200 GTO mount but I will do my best to tell you my experience. 

So park 3 is where you start. Weights on an off in that position with clutches tight. In my case tight means finger tight plus a little more. So snug but not wrenched down. Loose to me means just loose. So from tight where it’s finger tight plus some to loose is probably 1-2 full turns. Maybe less.

So weights on then just barely loose to get a feel for the weight and how it will act. My AP 1100 has a fair amount of natural friction in it even with the clutches loose. So in my case this can make it difficult to determine what is exactly balanced. So this is what I did. I intentionally changed the weighting enough so I could tell what out of balance felt like. But I kept a tight grip on my OTA so there were no mishaps.

My OTA says 32 pounds but then there is the diagonal plus eyepiece, a GLP and whatever else. I ended up with 48# of weight and it feels balanced enough. With the friction that’s natural to the system it can only be tuned so much. The book says err on the side of more weight so that’s how I handled it. Once you think you’re close you can try loosening the clutches a little more to see if that will help you feel the balance point.

You have a different mount but I hope this will give you some idea.

Hope that helps.


Tom




On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 10:22 PM michael mccann via groups.io <mmccawsprojects=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi again
Getting a feel for AP1600 clutch methods. It seems like the AP clutch system is more like the Losmandy G11 than the iOptron iEq30 Pro ( which in reality is how the iEq30 mount engages the worm gear). 
So when achieving balance on the G11 I would loosen the clutches to balance RA and Dec.  Your manual says to keep the clutches hand tight on both axis. Disengage the gear mesh as one balances.
My question is even though you disengage the gear mesh, wouldn’t you still want to disengage the clutch on the axis your balancing? So you know your design better, what am I missing?

Cheers
Mike






--
CN: HasAnyoneSeenMyNeblua


--
CN: HasAnyoneSeenMyNeblua


michael mccann
 

Thanks Tom
These AP are definitely a different animal than the Losmandy and iOptron, more options, higher quality. I appreciate you going over your approach. It’s curious that they start in position #3. When I get to the point of comfort that I’ll load my RC (OTA about 65lbs) , I’ll be probably loading it from park position #1 or #4. But I see that I’ll have to park at #3 and disengage clutches.
So When you load your scope , do you have it in park #3, release the clutches, move RA and Dec to a easy loading position, load telescope into the saddle , then reposition to park #3, tighten clutches. Then balance process starts at park position #3.
I guess with nearly 100lbs of weights I’m figuring out what’s the process I need to do this safely.
But I’ll start with some small setup first.

Cheers


Thomas Giannaccini
 

Yes that’s a lot of weight to think about. Maybe put some weight on first before you load the OTA? I’ll defer to the board here but off the cuff yes I personally loaded the OTA from the Side as you state.

Best,

Tom

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:28 PM michael mccann via groups.io <mmccawsprojects=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks Tom
These AP are definitely a different animal than the Losmandy and iOptron, more options, higher quality. I appreciate you going over your approach.  It’s curious that they start in position #3. When I get to the point of comfort that I’ll load my RC (OTA about 65lbs) , I’ll be probably loading it from park position #1 or #4. But I see that I’ll have to park at #3 and disengage clutches.
So When you load your scope , do you have it in park #3, release the clutches, move RA and Dec to a easy loading position, load telescope into the saddle , then reposition to park #3, tighten clutches. Then balance process starts at park position #3.
I guess with nearly 100lbs of weights I’m figuring out what’s the process I need to do this safely.
But I’ll start with some small setup first.

Cheers






--
CN: HasAnyoneSeenMyNeblua


fernandorivera3
 

Michael, ownership of your new AP mount means your Losmandy & iOptron mounts will now become doorstops or paperweights 😃

Fernando


michael mccann
 

Well , more like delegated to the light work:)


Nick Iversen
 

No need to go "some more" beyond finger tight. I have actually forgotten to tighten the clutches at all and not noticed - slewing and guiding still worked.


Worsel
 

Michael

There was a thread a while back on loading a heavy OTA on a tall pier/mount.

https://ap-gto.groups.io/g/main/topic/82488870#78246

Useful approaches from several people, including Roland stating

"Park2 is usually recommended for easy loading. Open the rings, lift the scope up into the rings and close them.
 
Trying to load a scope that has the dovetail already attached to the scope is a nightmare. Put the dovetail into the cradle instead of trying to slide the scope with dovetail into the cradle.
 
Hint: I have never recommended using Park3 for loading a scope."


Bryan


michael mccann
 

Lots of ideas. I’m liking the hydraulic table from harbor freight because I’m loading a truss tube RC, 14”, about 65lbs without focuser and the rest. So no tube rings just dovetail. I’m out in the country, listening to some roosters crowing now, and my neighbors are more than a mile away. So most of my Astro-buddies are 20 plus miles away.
I think if the scope is positioned face down and the dovetail could align with the saddle if dec clutches allow saddle to point vertical.

The tricky part is adding gear (camera, focuser guide camera, etc.) and CW . I can predetermine the center of gravity on the OTA and gear.

Still working on that. I plan to get help from my friends, but I also trying to make it easier for all of us.

Cheers


Worsel
 

Michael

I think if the scope is positioned face down and the dovetail could align with the saddle if dec clutches allow saddle to point vertical.

This is how I load a 14.5" OTA; although I did not need the elevating table, because I have an elevating pier.  I just built a table that is the right height for the front of the OTA when pointed down.  Once the clutches are released, the Dec axis can rotate through a full 360 degrees.
 
Bryan