Mach1 Unable to Find Home Position Suddenly


Roland Christen
 


Rolando I don't have SkyX, nor do I have APCC or any planetary programs. As said, SG Pro does everything for me and if you think I can do the same with the SGP, I can try that.
I have a feeling that you think the mount is doing something wrong. I told you a way that you can verify that the mount is working exactly as it should. Until you can verify that the mount is not where the problem lies, we are unfortunately at an impasse.
Your software combination is sending commands to the mount that changes the alignment. Unfortunately I don't know enough about SGP to be of help. Perhaps someone else on our group has the knowledge needed to solve your issue.

Roland


-----Original Message-----
From: Mikko Viljamaa <mikko.viljamaa@...>
To: main <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Apr 3, 2020 7:42 am
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach1 Unable to Find Home Position Suddenly

Rolando I don't have SkyX, nor do I have APCC or any planetary programs. As said, SG Pro does everything for me and if you think I can do the same with the SGP, I can try that.

But what you describe below is kind of what I have been doing, I have tried to realign the mount by loosen the clutches and manually rotating the Ra axes so the small alignment lines match. Both with the power on (mount connected) and without power. Based on my experience this makes things worse. The only way I can get the mount to return to the correct (park3) position is to manually turn the Ra axes with the clutches intact so the small lines match. And by doing this a few times.

This is what I had to do again yesterday evening, several times before the mount finally returned correctly to park3. After that I knew that I have a fighting change to get the sequence started. It all took about 30 min and the first slews were horribly off as the scope was already past the flip so I knew the solve would not work. The two photos attached show the incorrect and correct slews, telling how badly the mount is off (the one on the left obviously being the correct slew).




Thanks,

Mikko


Roland Christen
 


Next you send it to Park 4. It should go there and be close. Now you loosen the clutches a second time and using a levelling device of some kind, ensure that the CW shaft and the scope are level.
Actually this is wrong. After sending it to Park4 DO NOT loosen the clutches, rather use the altitude adjuster to level the scope.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart <stuart.j.heggie@...>
To: main <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Apr 3, 2020 9:03 am
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach1 Unable to Find Home Position Suddenly

Mikko, I've tried to follow this thread. In your description just posted, you did not mention SENDING the mount to Park 3 with the clutches loose. You do that first and just hold the scope with your hand while the motors run. When the mount stops, it "thinks" it is at Park 3. THEN you move it manually to Park 3 THEN tighten the clutches. 

Next you send it to Park 4. It should go there and be close. Now you loosen the clutches a second time and using a levelling device of some kind, ensure that the CW shaft and the scope are level. Then re-tighten the clutches. At this point you should be very close. Send the scope to a bright star, centre it and then hit RCAL.


On Fri, 3 Apr 2020 at 08:42, Mikko Viljamaa <mikko.viljamaa@...> wrote:
Rolando I don't have SkyX, nor do I have APCC or any planetary programs. As said, SG Pro does everything for me and if you think I can do the same with the SGP, I can try that.

But what you describe below is kind of what I have been doing, I have tried to realign the mount by loosen the clutches and manually rotating the Ra axes so the small alignment lines match. Both with the power on (mount connected) and without power. Based on my experience this makes things worse. The only way I can get the mount to return to the correct (park3) position is to manually turn the Ra axes with the clutches intact so the small lines match. And by doing this a few times.

This is what I had to do again yesterday evening, several times before the mount finally returned correctly to park3. After that I knew that I have a fighting change to get the sequence started. It all took about 30 min and the first slews were horribly off as the scope was already past the flip so I knew the solve would not work. The two photos attached show the incorrect and correct slews, telling how badly the mount is off (the one on the left obviously being the correct slew).




Thanks,

Mikko

--

Stuart
http://www.astrofoto.ca/stuartheggie/


Roland Christen
 


First a correction, when I have said clutches I actually meant levers. So if I disengage the lever and then rotate the mount to align it, things go worse.
What levers are you loosening? Do not loosen the motor gearbox lever to rotate the mount. Those are not to be used to move the axes around. They are only for critical balancing!

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Mikko Viljamaa <mikko.viljamaa@...>
To: main <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Apr 3, 2020 9:04 am
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach1 Unable to Find Home Position Suddenly

OK, so a couple of observations and a correction, hope these helps.

First a correction, when I have said clutches I actually meant levers. So if I disengage the lever and then rotate the mount to align it, things go worse. That's why I have not done that other than tried a few times to see if it helps. So when I have now tried to rotate the mount, I have done it as Rolando describes below, just without loosing the clutches first as the axes seem to move OK otherwise. The knobs are as tight as I can tight them without any tools and the axes are by no means loose, I need both hands to turn the axes. 

Then the observations. I was assuming that when Rolando said that I can to the test during the daytime that he meant just slewing the mount to different directions and see how it returns. That's what I did and the mount never returned correctly after it started from the "last parked" position. BTW the mount had returned spot on after last nights session. I did what Rolando asked below and the mount comes always short about the same amount. And what I noticed was that the mount always came short to the same side the slew was!  So if I slew to NE, the mount fell short of correct position below the fixed line and if I slew to NW, the mount was short of correct park above the line. 

The second observation was that if I didn't correct the mount as Rolando describes below (manually correct, disconnect from SGP and power off), the error multiplies about the same amount in the following slews (see photos below).



So what I can tell is that;

  1. it seems that the error shows now only on Ra axes
  2. Error seems to be consistent, about the same amount every time and regardless where you slew
  3. Error shows always on the same side of the mount where the slew started

Hope these helps,

Mikko


Roland Christen
 


I did what Rolando asked below and the mount comes always short about the same amount.
Can you please tell what exactly you did, how you commanded the mount to move without a planetarium program?

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Mikko Viljamaa <mikko.viljamaa@...>
To: main <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Apr 3, 2020 9:04 am
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach1 Unable to Find Home Position Suddenly

OK, so a couple of observations and a correction, hope these helps.

First a correction, when I have said clutches I actually meant levers. So if I disengage the lever and then rotate the mount to align it, things go worse. That's why I have not done that other than tried a few times to see if it helps. So when I have now tried to rotate the mount, I have done it as Rolando describes below, just without loosing the clutches first as the axes seem to move OK otherwise. The knobs are as tight as I can tight them without any tools and the axes are by no means loose, I need both hands to turn the axes. 

Then the observations. I was assuming that when Rolando said that I can to the test during the daytime that he meant just slewing the mount to different directions and see how it returns. That's what I did and the mount never returned correctly after it started from the "last parked" position. BTW the mount had returned spot on after last nights session. I did what Rolando asked below and the mount comes always short about the same amount. And what I noticed was that the mount always came short to the same side the slew was!  So if I slew to NE, the mount fell short of correct position below the fixed line and if I slew to NW, the mount was short of correct park above the line. 

The second observation was that if I didn't correct the mount as Rolando describes below (manually correct, disconnect from SGP and power off), the error multiplies about the same amount in the following slews (see photos below).



So what I can tell is that;

  1. it seems that the error shows now only on Ra axes
  2. Error seems to be consistent, about the same amount every time and regardless where you slew
  3. Error shows always on the same side of the mount where the slew started

Hope these helps,

Mikko


Mikko Viljamaa
 

On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 11:17 AM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> wrote:
What levers are you loosening? Do not loosen the motor gearbox lever to rotate the mount. Those are not to be used to move the axes around. They are only for critical balancing!
 
Rolando
 
Correct, but I wanted to try those also and see if that would help.


- Mikko


Cheng-Yang Tan
 

Hi Mikko,
   I've been following this thread and I would suggest that you make a movie of exactly what you're doing and then send the link to Rolando. There's always confusion of putting into words your exact actions. IMO, doing this will make the troubleshooting go a lot faster.

cytan


On Friday, April 3, 2020, 10:26:57 AM CDT, Mikko Viljamaa <mikko.viljamaa@...> wrote:


On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 11:17 AM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> wrote:
What levers are you loosening? Do not loosen the motor gearbox lever to rotate the mount. Those are not to be used to move the axes around. They are only for critical balancing!
 
Rolando
 
Correct, but I wanted to try those also and see if that would help.


- Mikko


Roland Christen
 


Correct, but I wanted to try those also and see if that would help.
The mount is not where your problem lies.

Please list the steps that you are doing that you say is causing the mount to not park properly.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Mikko Viljamaa <mikko.viljamaa@...>
To: main <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Apr 3, 2020 10:26 am
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach1 Unable to Find Home Position Suddenly

On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 11:17 AM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> wrote:
What levers are you loosening? Do not loosen the motor gearbox lever to rotate the mount. Those are not to be used to move the axes around. They are only for critical balancing!
 
Rolando
 
Correct, but I wanted to try those also and see if that would help.


- Mikko


Mikko Viljamaa
 

On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 11:20 AM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> wrote:
Can you please tell what exactly you did, how you commanded the mount to move without a planetarium program?
 
Rolando
  1. Power on
  2. Start SG Pro
  3. In SG Pro connect mount
  4. This brings up the AP V2
  5. in AP V2 unpark, from last selected (as this was from the last night, the mount was correctly parked with alignment lines nicely matching)
  6. Slew the mount using the AP V2's driver to a random NW or NE direction until the Ra axes was almost parallel
  7. Asked AP V2 to park the mount, park #3
  8. Watched the mount miss the Ra line by about 1/4"
  9. Loose the clutches (sometimes didn't do that) and manually moved the Ra axes so that the alignment lines match
  10. Unconnected the mount in SG Pro
  11. Unhooked the power cord from Mach1
  12. Hooked the power back on to Mach1
  13. In SG Pro reconnect the mount again
  14. Started from #4 again with the same result every time, the mount misses the mark by about 1/4" (missed side depending on which way the slew was as said in the previous post)

- Mikko


Roland Christen
 

Ok, try one more thing if you can.

Start from park3, then go to park4
Unpark the mount from present position and go back to park3.

Do this a couple of times without loosening anything. Does the mount park properly in those two positions?

If not:
open the left side cover of the gearbox and examine the geartrain. It is possible that the last spur gear (the one on the worm shaft) is slipping. This can happen if the setscrew is loose. It may be difficult for you to see this screw until you remove the large gear that covers up the smaller final gear in the geartrain.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Mikko Viljamaa <mikko.viljamaa@...>
To: main <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Apr 3, 2020 10:40 am
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach1 Unable to Find Home Position Suddenly

On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 11:20 AM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> wrote:
Can you please tell what exactly you did, how you commanded the mount to move without a planetarium program?
 
Rolando
  1. Power on
  2. Start SG Pro
  3. In SG Pro connect mount
  4. This brings up the AP V2
  5. in AP V2 unpark, from last selected (as this was from the last night, the mount was correctly parked with alignment lines nicely matching)
  6. Slew the mount using the AP V2's driver to a random NW or NE direction until the Ra axes was almost parallel
  7. Asked AP V2 to park the mount, park #3
  8. Watched the mount miss the Ra line by about 1/4"
  9. Loose the clutches (sometimes didn't do that) and manually moved the Ra axes so that the alignment lines match
  10. Unconnected the mount in SG Pro
  11. Unhooked the power cord from Mach1
  12. Hooked the power back on to Mach1
  13. In SG Pro reconnect the mount again
  14. Started from #4 again with the same result every time, the mount misses the mark by about 1/4" (missed side depending on which way the slew was as said in the previous post)

- Mikko


Dale Ghent
 

Can you screenshot the AP ASCOM driver window with it fully-expanded, right after SGP launches it and it connects to the mount, and post it here?

Also make a screenshot of the Telescope tab in SGP's Equipment Manager.

On Apr 3, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Mikko Viljamaa <mikko.viljamaa@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 11:20 AM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@aol.com> wrote:
Can you please tell what exactly you did, how you commanded the mount to move without a planetarium program?

Rolando
• Power on
• Start SG Pro
• In SG Pro connect mount
• This brings up the AP V2
• in AP V2 unpark, from last selected (as this was from the last night, the mount was correctly parked with alignment lines nicely matching)
• Slew the mount using the AP V2's driver to a random NW or NE direction until the Ra axes was almost parallel
• Asked AP V2 to park the mount, park #3
• Watched the mount miss the Ra line by about 1/4"
• Loose the clutches (sometimes didn't do that) and manually moved the Ra axes so that the alignment lines match
• Unconnected the mount in SG Pro
• Unhooked the power cord from Mach1
• Hooked the power back on to Mach1
• In SG Pro reconnect the mount again
• Started from #4 again with the same result every time, the mount misses the mark by about 1/4" (missed side depending on which way the slew was as said in the previous post)

- Mikko


Mikko Viljamaa
 

  • Unparked from last position
  • Without doing / slewing anywhere else, immediately park #4
  • Mount misses the horizontal line
  • Repeat a couple of times and the error - both parks 3 & 4 multiplies every time as before
I opened the gear cover and don't see anything slipping. Everything looks and sounds good. I did tighten all the screws but this didn't change the outcome after I tired the park 3/4 again. I doubt this is a mechanical issue rather than something else.

I'm trying upload a video on my Google drive showing the gears running but the Internet is so bad nowadays when everyone is working form home.

In case it wasn't clear yet, I'm willing to try what ever to fix this.

- Mikko


Mikko Viljamaa
 

Here...


Dale Ghent
 

These screenshots are all coming in illegibly because they are likely being resized.

Try posting them to imgur and replying with the link to them: https://imgur.com/upload?beta

On Apr 3, 2020, at 1:42 PM, Mikko Viljamaa <mikko.viljamaa@gmail.com> wrote:

Here...

<Full Screen.png>

<Full Screen.png>


Roland Christen
 


I opened the gear cover and don't see anything slipping.
You may not see anything slipping because you really can't see a gear slipping on a shaft. Use an Allen wrench to tighten the small set screws on the last gear in the geartrain, the one attached to the worm shaft. Also check the ones on the motor shaft.

Remove the two cluster gears (the large one on top and the white Delrin gear beneath and check to see if the cluster is tight or if the two parts might not be fully and solidly connected to each other. That is most probably where you are getting your slewing error.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Mikko Viljamaa <mikko.viljamaa@...>
To: main <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Apr 3, 2020 12:21 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach1 Unable to Find Home Position Suddenly

Unparked from last position
  • Without doing / slewing anywhere else, immediately park #4
  • Mount misses the horizontal line
  • Repeat a couple of times and the error - both parks 3 & 4 multiplies every time as before
I opened the gear cover and don't see anything slipping. Everything looks and sounds good. I did tighten all the screws but this didn't change the outcome after I tired the park 3/4 again. I doubt this is a mechanical issue rather than something else.

I'm trying upload a video on my Google drive showing the gears running but the Internet is so bad nowadays when everyone is working form home.

In case it wasn't clear yet, I'm willing to try what ever to fix this.

- Mikko


Donald Rudny
 

Hi Mikko,

I still think it would be wise to try using your Luminous program to initialize, then slew to a couple of things and see if it returns to the original park position.  Don’t align or recal.  You can do this in daylight.  If it works ok, then there is something amiss in you control software.  If it does the same thing, then there is a problem in the mount or CP unit.  Everything is a kind of guess right now.  This would help narrow it down, and it’s simple to do.

Don

Don Rudny


On Apr 3, 2020, at 7:21 AM, Mikko Viljamaa <mikko.viljamaa@...> wrote:


  • Unparked from last position
  • Without doing / slewing anywhere else, immediately park #4
  • Mount misses the horizontal line
  • Repeat a couple of times and the error - both parks 3 & 4 multiplies every time as before
I opened the gear cover and don't see anything slipping. Everything looks and sounds good. I did tighten all the screws but this didn't change the outcome after I tired the park 3/4 again. I doubt this is a mechanical issue rather than something else.

I'm trying upload a video on my Google drive showing the gears running but the Internet is so bad nowadays when everyone is working form home.

In case it wasn't clear yet, I'm willing to try what ever to fix this.

- Mikko


Steve Reilly
 

Not sure I asked before but have you posted to SGP?

 

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mikko Viljamaa
Sent: Friday, April 3, 2020 1:33 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach1 Unable to Find Home Position Suddenly

 

This might be easier to read...


Mikko Viljamaa
 

Dale click the lower one as it's a file. You should be able to read it...


Mikko Viljamaa
 

Yup, SGP forum has been pretty quiet lately...


Mikko Viljamaa
 

Nothing probably to do with this but previously (older versions of AP V2) when you launched the driver, it asked if you want to unpark the mount. The current one does not do that and I notice that even though I have not initialized the mount, the screen shot I attached says that the mount is unparked.


- Mikko


Roland Christen
 

Any time any app opens the AP ASCOM driver it will initialize the mount, whether it unparks or not. Apparently your app (SGP) opens and unparks the mount automatically.

A mount is NOT initialized when the ASCOM driver shows RA=+12hrs and Dec = +90*00:00deg.
A mount is initialized, Dec will show any angle other than 90*00:00 deg.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Mikko Viljamaa <mikko.viljamaa@...>
To: main <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Apr 3, 2020 1:56 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach1 Unable to Find Home Position Suddenly

Nothing probably to do with this but previously (older versions of AP V2) when you launched the driver, it asked if you want to unpark the mount. The current one does not do that and I notice that even though I have not initialized the mount, the screen shot I attached says that the mount is unparked.


- Mikko