Guiding on my plate again - NEED TO IMPROVE


Ron Kramer
 

Have you found multistar to be better? I tried it and didn't see any improvement.  My guiding has been poor for months then GREAT for months then back to poor since I got the Mach1
I've solved my other issues and guiding is back on my plate. 

My guiding went from .79 to 1.8 during the night. .  = (    I just can get it to settle down.  DEC goes WILD for seemingly no reason.  I went out and redid PA... and really got it close but no help.

My history - Mach1 came... - lousy guiding at about 1.2 - after months to trials - it just turned to great. YEAH like  0.23  -0.28 great for months.

Then turned to crap again and It now fluctuates at .8 to 1.8 mostly hovering around 1.05I had other issues with the RASA to solve. I'm good now on it... so the final thing to tune... guiding again

I do drive by shootings where I stop click one frame and move to the next. This one was of those last night. more often I have elongated stars = (

 

300 seconds - ASI094, RASA 11, Mach1 and NINA @ 100 gain.

just stretched no calibration frames.  I don't play that.


Ron Kramer
 

more info... I'm in a dome. (no wind typically). My mount it normally not moved. I check PA usually once a year.

conditions seemed okay on the weather stations but when I went out and looked I saw fog...  

I did a long  GUIDING OFF run - and then guiding assist.  It sais PA was off a little, I went out and tweaked PA and did guiding assistant again.

Said PA was nailed.  No improvement. I'll try to attach the log.  I don't mine it a little high, but when it's higher than my image scale and my stars are elongated over 300 sec exposures - It's frustrating.

80mm guide scope, Lodestar SX. XS?  

imaging with 620mm 


Ron Kramer
 

Looking at the log - turned off the dec and went Ohhhhhhhhhhhh  I see a PATTERN like PEC pattern?  shoot... that reminds me. Once I move the mount / clutches - I need to record a new PEC curve? 

I'll try that next clear night.   Concur? 


Roland Christen
 


Once I move the mount / clutches - I need to record a new PEC curve? 
No.
PEC has no effect on Dec.
PEC does not change if you move the mount or loosen the clutches.

You need to show a guide graph (screenshot) and settings in your guider program before I could make heads or tails of your issue. I'm not going to dig thru reams of guide logs looking for a needle in a haystack. That's your job Smile

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Kramer <ronkramer1957@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Fri, Dec 11, 2020 7:17 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Guiding on my plate again - NEED TO IMPROVE

Looking at the log - turned off the dec and went Ohhhhhhhhhhhh  I see a PATTERN like PEC pattern?  shoot... that reminds me. Once I move the mount / clutches - I need to record a new PEC curve? 
I'll try that next clear night.   Concur? 

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


 

Ron do you happen to have a guidelog with your calibration run in it that you can post?



On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 5:08 PM Ron Kramer <ronkramer1957@...> wrote:

more info... I'm in a dome. (no wind typically). My mount it normally not moved. I check PA usually once a year.

conditions seemed okay on the weather stations but when I went out and looked I saw fog...  

I did a long  GUIDING OFF run - and then guiding assist.  It sais PA was off a little, I went out and tweaked PA and did guiding assistant again.

Said PA was nailed.  No improvement. I'll try to attach the log.  I don't mine it a little high, but when it's higher than my image scale and my stars are elongated over 300 sec exposures - It's frustrating.

80mm guide scope, Lodestar SX. XS?  

imaging with 620mm 



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


Ron Kramer
 

right (PEC not on dec) but that's why I turned off DEC to see the RA pattern posted above? 

But lets do it. I have PEM pro and have never properly used it. Maybe I can get step by steps over several nights.

QUESTION:  if I am guiding (on a star) and I click RECORD PEC in APCC pro... Will it record a decent PEC that I can then enable and use?

If yes, I have to be on a star? or can I just let it run?   I have pem pro V3 

Disengaging the worm gears and moving the mount doesn't chance PEC?

 

settings... 

 

last calibration

 

CLEARER

CALIBRATION report

It seems to downsize these into oblivion. if I ATTACH will it leave them alone?

My PA after guiding assistant was at 0.0 to 0.3 arc sec then back to 0.0

 


Ron Kramer
 

Yes I attached it. I'll attach again

Should be attached. In PHD log viewer it's easy to flip through. I calibrated 3 times. I did a couple  "GUIDING OFF"  runs. I noticed DEC was off so I went out and did PA.

Did guiding assistant again and Dec was better.  Still it swings wildly up and down and didn't use to. It use to do a smooth sexy line.  WELL HERES A OLD CAPTURE.

And this is  .39.     Average use to be .28  Now I'd be happy if I could get it under 1.0 and keep it there. 

 


 

Hi Ron

Here are some observations:

1. your calibration steps look about 2x the size i calculated. you might try creating a new profile via the profile wizard and make sure you leave everything at defaults.

2. you don't have any features to improve guide star recognition. I suggest you do a darkframe library, enable star mass detection, and set minimum HFD to at least 2 pixels (avoid hot pixels)

3. on your algorithms, set DEC resist switch aggressiveness to 100%, there's no reason to have it lower. if you have an encoder mount, use lowpass2 as the algorithm

4. RA is your constraint on guiding, and it looks like for this you are dealing with a couple of periodic errors, your primary 385.8 seconds is about 4"
image.png

It's not huge, but you can use PPEC algorithm to more effectively tame this. Switch your RA guide algorithm to Predictive PEC (PPEC), use period length value of 385.8 and uncheck auto adjust period. I would bump up both the reactive and predictive weights by 10 each, i think the defaults are a little conservative

5. last thing i'll mention is some very curious things happening with your guide star details. normally guide star SNR and mass are a relatively flat, like this example (this is not your data, and ignore the RA/DEC. pay attention to the yellow line at the top):

image.png

However, your star SNR is relatively low and exhibits a fade/jump behavior
image.png

Combined with some of your other settings above, it seems like it could be locking on to clumps of bad pixels or other things. I'm not ready to call it on that result since the guiding otherwise looks pretty normal, but it seems to me your guiding challenges are really these occasional 5" jumps.  

they also get larger as the night goes on, this is the big picture from your 2h45m last run 
image.png
  
I find with these kinds of things it's a chicken and egg problem - is the guidestar causing this, or is some sort of mechanical instability the source and causes the guidestar to jump. you'll need to figure that out. hopefully the suggested improvements above will help sniff that out

I suspect it may be a guidestar problem, since i observe the corresponding RA/DEC jumps actually are steady or decrease as the guidestar jumps in SNR increase

image.png

hope that gives you some places to start

Brian

On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 6:25 PM Ron Kramer <ronkramer1957@...> wrote:

Yes I attached it. I'll attach again

Should be attached. In PHD log viewer it's easy to flip through. I calibrated 3 times. I did a couple  "GUIDING OFF"  runs. I noticed DEC was off so I went out and did PA.

Did guiding assistant again and Dec was better.  Still it swings wildly up and down and didn't use to. It use to do a smooth sexy line.  WELL HERES A OLD CAPTURE.

And this is  .39.     Average use to be .28  Now I'd be happy if I could get it under 1.0 and keep it there. 

 



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


 

PS that period between the jumps averages about 565 seconds. I don't know if that period means anything for your mount but it does seem rather regular

532
561
576
594

On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 8:26 PM Brian Valente via groups.io <bvalente=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Ron

Here are some observations:

1. your calibration steps look about 2x the size i calculated. you might try creating a new profile via the profile wizard and make sure you leave everything at defaults.

2. you don't have any features to improve guide star recognition. I suggest you do a darkframe library, enable star mass detection, and set minimum HFD to at least 2 pixels (avoid hot pixels)

3. on your algorithms, set DEC resist switch aggressiveness to 100%, there's no reason to have it lower. if you have an encoder mount, use lowpass2 as the algorithm

4. RA is your constraint on guiding, and it looks like for this you are dealing with a couple of periodic errors, your primary 385.8 seconds is about 4"
image.png

It's not huge, but you can use PPEC algorithm to more effectively tame this. Switch your RA guide algorithm to Predictive PEC (PPEC), use period length value of 385.8 and uncheck auto adjust period. I would bump up both the reactive and predictive weights by 10 each, i think the defaults are a little conservative

5. last thing i'll mention is some very curious things happening with your guide star details. normally guide star SNR and mass are a relatively flat, like this example (this is not your data, and ignore the RA/DEC. pay attention to the yellow line at the top):

image.png

However, your star SNR is relatively low and exhibits a fade/jump behavior
image.png

Combined with some of your other settings above, it seems like it could be locking on to clumps of bad pixels or other things. I'm not ready to call it on that result since the guiding otherwise looks pretty normal, but it seems to me your guiding challenges are really these occasional 5" jumps.  

they also get larger as the night goes on, this is the big picture from your 2h45m last run 
image.png
  
I find with these kinds of things it's a chicken and egg problem - is the guidestar causing this, or is some sort of mechanical instability the source and causes the guidestar to jump. you'll need to figure that out. hopefully the suggested improvements above will help sniff that out

I suspect it may be a guidestar problem, since i observe the corresponding RA/DEC jumps actually are steady or decrease as the guidestar jumps in SNR increase

image.png

hope that gives you some places to start

Brian

On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 6:25 PM Ron Kramer <ronkramer1957@...> wrote:

Yes I attached it. I'll attach again

Should be attached. In PHD log viewer it's easy to flip through. I calibrated 3 times. I did a couple  "GUIDING OFF"  runs. I noticed DEC was off so I went out and did PA.

Did guiding assistant again and Dec was better.  Still it swings wildly up and down and didn't use to. It use to do a smooth sexy line.  WELL HERES A OLD CAPTURE.

And this is  .39.     Average use to be .28  Now I'd be happy if I could get it under 1.0 and keep it there. 

 



--
Brian 



Brian Valente



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


Ron Kramer
 

Brian - wow thanks for the analysis.  Better than yelling at me that Pec won't change dec (When I am showing my RA only?  Happy pills?  Vacation?).  
massive info.  Really WEIRD the pattern in guide star mass.  I'll see about the tweaks.

(I've never ever had it accidentally select a hot pixel). I'll go see about the tweaks and wait for a clear night. 
THANK YOU!.


On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 11:40 PM Brian Valente <bvalente@...> wrote:
PS that period between the jumps averages about 565 seconds. I don't know if that period means anything for your mount but it does seem rather regular

532
561
576
594

On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 8:26 PM Brian Valente via groups.io <bvalente=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Ron

Here are some observations:

1. your calibration steps look about 2x the size i calculated. you might try creating a new profile via the profile wizard and make sure you leave everything at defaults.

2. you don't have any features to improve guide star recognition. I suggest you do a darkframe library, enable star mass detection, and set minimum HFD to at least 2 pixels (avoid hot pixels)

3. on your algorithms, set DEC resist switch aggressiveness to 100%, there's no reason to have it lower. if you have an encoder mount, use lowpass2 as the algorithm

4. RA is your constraint on guiding, and it looks like for this you are dealing with a couple of periodic errors, your primary 385.8 seconds is about 4"
image.png

It's not huge, but you can use PPEC algorithm to more effectively tame this. Switch your RA guide algorithm to Predictive PEC (PPEC), use period length value of 385.8 and uncheck auto adjust period. I would bump up both the reactive and predictive weights by 10 each, i think the defaults are a little conservative

5. last thing i'll mention is some very curious things happening with your guide star details. normally guide star SNR and mass are a relatively flat, like this example (this is not your data, and ignore the RA/DEC. pay attention to the yellow line at the top):

image.png

However, your star SNR is relatively low and exhibits a fade/jump behavior
image.png

Combined with some of your other settings above, it seems like it could be locking on to clumps of bad pixels or other things. I'm not ready to call it on that result since the guiding otherwise looks pretty normal, but it seems to me your guiding challenges are really these occasional 5" jumps.  

they also get larger as the night goes on, this is the big picture from your 2h45m last run 
image.png
  
I find with these kinds of things it's a chicken and egg problem - is the guidestar causing this, or is some sort of mechanical instability the source and causes the guidestar to jump. you'll need to figure that out. hopefully the suggested improvements above will help sniff that out

I suspect it may be a guidestar problem, since i observe the corresponding RA/DEC jumps actually are steady or decrease as the guidestar jumps in SNR increase

image.png

hope that gives you some places to start

Brian

On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 6:25 PM Ron Kramer <ronkramer1957@...> wrote:

Yes I attached it. I'll attach again

Should be attached. In PHD log viewer it's easy to flip through. I calibrated 3 times. I did a couple  "GUIDING OFF"  runs. I noticed DEC was off so I went out and did PA.

Did guiding assistant again and Dec was better.  Still it swings wildly up and down and didn't use to. It use to do a smooth sexy line.  WELL HERES A OLD CAPTURE.

And this is  .39.     Average use to be .28  Now I'd be happy if I could get it under 1.0 and keep it there. 

 



--
Brian 



Brian Valente



--
Brian 



Brian Valente




Ron Kramer
 

All changes made (I had a dark lib?) but recreated profile and lib and made other changes. 
I'll see if that helps track down any issue. Rainy/snowy weekend so may be a month before I can try it. = (

https://www.flickr.com/photos/158199519@N08/?

PS I was a 30 year photography studio owner myself.  retired at 50 as was the plan.  13 years of retirement so far.  = )

On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 9:15 AM Ron Kramer <ronkramer1957@...> wrote:
Brian - wow thanks for the analysis.  Better than yelling at me that Pec won't change dec (When I am showing my RA only?  Happy pills?  Vacation?).  
massive info.  Really WEIRD the pattern in guide star mass.  I'll see about the tweaks.

(I've never ever had it accidentally select a hot pixel). I'll go see about the tweaks and wait for a clear night. 
THANK YOU!.


On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 11:40 PM Brian Valente <bvalente@...> wrote:
PS that period between the jumps averages about 565 seconds. I don't know if that period means anything for your mount but it does seem rather regular

532
561
576
594

On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 8:26 PM Brian Valente via groups.io <bvalente=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Ron

Here are some observations:

1. your calibration steps look about 2x the size i calculated. you might try creating a new profile via the profile wizard and make sure you leave everything at defaults.

2. you don't have any features to improve guide star recognition. I suggest you do a darkframe library, enable star mass detection, and set minimum HFD to at least 2 pixels (avoid hot pixels)

3. on your algorithms, set DEC resist switch aggressiveness to 100%, there's no reason to have it lower. if you have an encoder mount, use lowpass2 as the algorithm

4. RA is your constraint on guiding, and it looks like for this you are dealing with a couple of periodic errors, your primary 385.8 seconds is about 4"
image.png

It's not huge, but you can use PPEC algorithm to more effectively tame this. Switch your RA guide algorithm to Predictive PEC (PPEC), use period length value of 385.8 and uncheck auto adjust period. I would bump up both the reactive and predictive weights by 10 each, i think the defaults are a little conservative

5. last thing i'll mention is some very curious things happening with your guide star details. normally guide star SNR and mass are a relatively flat, like this example (this is not your data, and ignore the RA/DEC. pay attention to the yellow line at the top):

image.png

However, your star SNR is relatively low and exhibits a fade/jump behavior
image.png

Combined with some of your other settings above, it seems like it could be locking on to clumps of bad pixels or other things. I'm not ready to call it on that result since the guiding otherwise looks pretty normal, but it seems to me your guiding challenges are really these occasional 5" jumps.  

they also get larger as the night goes on, this is the big picture from your 2h45m last run 
image.png
  
I find with these kinds of things it's a chicken and egg problem - is the guidestar causing this, or is some sort of mechanical instability the source and causes the guidestar to jump. you'll need to figure that out. hopefully the suggested improvements above will help sniff that out

I suspect it may be a guidestar problem, since i observe the corresponding RA/DEC jumps actually are steady or decrease as the guidestar jumps in SNR increase

image.png

hope that gives you some places to start

Brian

On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 6:25 PM Ron Kramer <ronkramer1957@...> wrote:

Yes I attached it. I'll attach again

Should be attached. In PHD log viewer it's easy to flip through. I calibrated 3 times. I did a couple  "GUIDING OFF"  runs. I noticed DEC was off so I went out and did PA.

Did guiding assistant again and Dec was better.  Still it swings wildly up and down and didn't use to. It use to do a smooth sexy line.  WELL HERES A OLD CAPTURE.

And this is  .39.     Average use to be .28  Now I'd be happy if I could get it under 1.0 and keep it there. 

 



--
Brian 



Brian Valente



--
Brian 



Brian Valente



--



Roland Christen
 

Sorry, you lost me completely.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Kramer <ronkramer1957@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Fri, Dec 11, 2020 8:19 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Guiding on my plate again - NEED TO IMPROVE

right (PEC not on dec) but that's why I turned off DEC to see the RA pattern posted above? 
But lets do it. I have PEM pro and have never properly used it. Maybe I can get step by steps over several nights.
QUESTION:  if I am guiding (on a star) and I click RECORD PEC in APCC pro... Will it record a decent PEC that I can then enable and use?
If yes, I have to be on a star? or can I just let it run?   I have pem pro V3 
Disengaging the worm gears and moving the mount doesn't chance PEC?
 
settings... 
 
last calibration
 
CLEARER
CALIBRATION report
It seems to downsize these into oblivion. if I ATTACH will it leave them alone?
My PA after guiding assistant was at 0.0 to 0.3 arc sec then back to 0.0
 

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Manusfisch
 

i sure dont see where any "yelling' was done. that analysis is a bit harsh.  I too was confused by your typo DEC/PEC and that set the stage for some confusion in an already tricky and complex problem.  Brian's analysis is however quite complete and educational for all to see.  Thanks Brian.  This is a great problem solving thread. 


Roland Christen
 

I'm not well versed in PHD2, so I can't really analyze and recommend different setting. I can, however, see if the mount itself has a mechanical issue by looking at the guider graph showing both axes response to the guide pulses and directions.

So, if the issue is a bad setting in the guider program, i don't have the expertise. If the issue is that one of the axes is not responding, then I know how to fix it. The fact that there is periodic error on the order of 5 to 7 arc seconds is a red herring. It has absolutely no effect on guide accuracy and it isn't worth pursuing if the problem is in the Dec axis.

I can help, but only if people are willing to provide information such as guide graph screen shots showing the problem.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Manusfisch via groups.io <tjfischer653@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Dec 12, 2020 5:28 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Guiding on my plate again - NEED TO IMPROVE

i sure dont see where any "yelling' was done. that analysis is a bit harsh.  I too was confused by your typo DEC/PEC and that set the stage for some confusion in an already tricky and complex problem.  Brian's analysis is however quite complete and educational for all to see.  Thanks Brian.  This is a great problem solving thread. 

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Pete Mumbower
 

Ron are you using a guidescope? I though I read that somewhere, especially since you are using a RASA. Could be good old fashioned differential flexure.

Pete


steve.winston@...
 

Here's a section of the graph showing some of the large excursions in RA and DEC.


Roland Christen
 

Can't read any of the text or numbers - resolution has been cut way down.

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: steve.winston@...
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Dec 12, 2020 10:29 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Guiding on my plate again - NEED TO IMPROVE

Here's a section of the graph showing some of the large excursions in RA and DEC.


--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Robert Sinitiere
 

Well, Roland.  It doesn’t look that bad to me.  It’s better than my EKG!  Bob☃️🎄🔭


On Dec 13, 2020, at 10:50 AM, Roland Christen via groups.io <chris1011@...> wrote:


Can't read any of the text or numbers - resolution has been cut way down.

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: steve.winston@...
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Dec 12, 2020 10:29 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Guiding on my plate again - NEED TO IMPROVE

Here's a section of the graph showing some of the large excursions in RA and DEC.

<Ron_guide_errors.jpg>

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics
<Ron_guide_errors.jpg>


Worsel
 

Ron

If you attach the original screenshot, rather than insert, it will be more readable.  Yahoo reduces the resolution of inserted images.

Bryan


Roland Christen
 

To everyone out there:

Here's the kind of screenshots I need to be able to analyze a mount's actions/health and to begin to separate out the guide software issues from the mount issues. It's easy enough to take and store screenshots by doing Shift-Print Screen, opening them up in Paint or other programs, storing them for future reference. That way you can go back to see what settings you had, what the seeing was like, etc. You need to do this for both Guided and Unguided for at least 1 worm cycle of 6.4 minutes (2 or 3 would be better). The more info data the better. Saying that the mount doesn't track is essentially zero information.

Screen shot 1:


Screenshot 2:



Screenshot 3:


--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics