APPM model how many points portable?


Roger Howard
 

Hello, looking for opinions and guidance for how many points to model.  There are a lot of topics on this but none of them seem to answer my questions.  I set up each time in my backyard in the same place on an ATS portable pier.  I'm using APCC Pro, 1100GTO, Edge 9.25 with OAG and SGP.  My pier is within I would estimate the same few inch square each time its set up. I did a 93 point model last time because I knew I would have several nights to image and it worked great.  The problem is that with a couple failed points that went to all sky solve it took well over an hour and a half using SGP and platesolve 2 as my plate solver.

My question is:  Just use the 93 point model since its almost in the same spot?  If not, how many points to model when I will be guiding?  My problem is that summertime dark isn't until about 8pm, and I get up for work at an early 0345 every day, so if I want to just do a night or two when the sky is clear for just a night or two, what should I do?  Is there a minimum number of points?  Can't dedicate a couple hours to get a pointing model because I have to hit the sack early (ish).  I know an observatory would be the answer, but in my yard that isn't happening.  Thanks for your experience.

Roger


ap@CaptivePhotons.com
 

My 1100 is due this summer so very curious also, as I will set up each night and tear down, often with a C11, sometimes a 4” refractor.

 

Right now with a MyT I do one large model, then a recalibration each night which takes 10 minutes.  I understand that’s not exactly possible with the AP mount.


One thing from the MyT experience and an SCT – unless you have the mirror locked, the point of diminishing returns gets reached fairly quickly in terms of number of model points and increasing accuracy, as with mirror movement there is an inherent lack of repeatability of getting back to any area of the sky.  Getting a model that gets fractional arc second precision with a scope that’s not repeatable except maybe to 5” or more is not very useful.   One day I may get a different focuser and lock my mirror but in the meantime I accept that lack of precision.

 

But spending 90 minutes a night building a model will be a real bummer.   Is it a plate solve issue?   TSX only takes a second per image to solve.  I really do not like TSX in general, and glad to be getting away, but… 90 minutes?  

 

Say it ain’t so!

 

Linwood

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Roger Howard via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2021 5:59 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: [ap-gto] APPM model how many points portable?

 

Hello, looking for opinions and guidance for how many points to model.  There are a lot of topics on this but none of them seem to answer my questions.  I set up each time in my backyard in the same place on an ATS portable pier.  I'm using APCC Pro, 1100GTO, Edge 9.25 with OAG and SGP.  My pier is within I would estimate the same few inch square each time its set up. I did a 93 point model last time because I knew I would have several nights to image and it worked great.  The problem is that with a couple failed points that went to all sky solve it took well over an hour and a half using SGP and platesolve 2 as my plate solver.

My question is:  Just use the 93 point model since its almost in the same spot?  If not, how many points to model when I will be guiding?  My problem is that summertime dark isn't until about 8pm, and I get up for work at an early 0345 every day, so if I want to just do a night or two when the sky is clear for just a night or two, what should I do?  Is there a minimum number of points?  Can't dedicate a couple hours to get a pointing model because I have to hit the sack early (ish).  I know an observatory would be the answer, but in my yard that isn't happening.  Thanks for your experience.

Roger


Roger Howard
 

That was only my second time using the mount. I had 3 fails which went to blind solve with a 5 minute limit on those solves, so that is 15 minutes right there. I’ll probably reduce the blind solve fail time limit and just drop a few points if they fail. So don’t judge anything by me, I’m just starting out. 


KHursh
 

I use SGP and ASTAP. A 90 point model takes about a half hour


ap@CaptivePhotons.com
 

I didn’t think astap was supported in the AP software; or is this coming ASTAP -> SGP -> AP?

 

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of KHursh via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2021 7:24 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APPM model how many points portable?

 

I use SGP and ASTAP. A 90 point model takes about a half hour


Ray Gralak
 

Hi Roger,

Hello, looking for opinions and guidance for how many points to model. There are a lot of topics on this but none of
them seem to answer my questions. I set up each time in my backyard in the same place on an ATS portable pier.
I'm using APCC Pro, 1100GTO, Edge 9.25 with OAG and SGP. My pier is within I would estimate the same few inch
square each time its set up. I did a 93 point model last time because I knew I would have several nights to image and
it worked great. The problem is that with a couple failed points that went to all sky solve it took well over an hour and
a half using SGP and platesolve 2 as my plate solver.
One point per minute seems very slow, even with a few missed all-sky plate solves. You should be able to get 2-3 points per minute.

To answer your question though, your results will depend on your individual setup. If your mirror is not locked down sufficiently you might be wating your time doing too many points.

-Ray



-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Roger Howard
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2021 2:59 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: [ap-gto] APPM model how many points portable?

Hello, looking for opinions and guidance for how many points to model. There are a lot of topics on this but none of
them seem to answer my questions. I set up each time in my backyard in the same place on an ATS portable pier.
I'm using APCC Pro, 1100GTO, Edge 9.25 with OAG and SGP. My pier is within I would estimate the same few inch
square each time its set up. I did a 93 point model last time because I knew I would have several nights to image and
it worked great. The problem is that with a couple failed points that went to all sky solve it took well over an hour and
a half using SGP and platesolve 2 as my plate solver.

My question is: Just use the 93 point model since its almost in the same spot? If not, how many points to model
when I will be guiding? My problem is that summertime dark isn't until about 8pm, and I get up for work at an early
0345 every day, so if I want to just do a night or two when the sky is clear for just a night or two, what should I do?
Is there a minimum number of points? Can't dedicate a couple hours to get a pointing model because I have to hit
the sack early (ish). I know an observatory would be the answer, but in my yard that isn't happening. Thanks for
your experience.

Roger


Worsel
 

My experience is that points that fail are near the edge of my horizon limits anyway...where I am unlikely to image.  I reduced the time limit on plate solves to about 20% greater than the solve time for most points.  This results in less time lost for points that may fail anyway and still produces an overall robust model with 200 points in about one hour.

A variation would be to reduce the the horizons for platesolving in APPM.

Finally, build a model ONLY for that portion of the sky you plan to image.  This has been discussed before.  Ray has improvements for this approach in the future.

Bryan


Jeffc
 


> I use SGP and ASTAP. A 90 point model takes about a half hour

>> I didn’t think astap was supported in the AP software; or is this coming ASTAP -> SGP -> AP?


I have also been thinking about using SGP and ASTAP.

Fwiw: I have been assuming APPM (?) uses SGP to capture and plate solve, and SGP in turn uses ASTAP to do the plate solve.   

... but I'm far from knowledgeable on this, tho I would like to confirm this works or not without burning too many cycles ... But I'll probably just try it sometime soon.


Also fwiw I'm still on the SGP learning curve, along with a new camera.  Was using maxim-dl, but I don't have full pinpoint.   (And I've been avoiding TSX from a bad experience with it in the past, which is likely resolved.)  I am almost 100% open at this point for image acquisition apps as long as they don't break the bank or my brain.   e.g. Voyager has been noted in other forums, however it seems to me SGP is more intuitive, and maybe is more supported... and afaik APPM does not work with Voyager.


Point is:  there seems to be many variations/options for software these days, which might have varying performance and capability levels.   It would be good to know what works well (at this point in time).

I also am realizing "what works well" may depend on the imaging hardware one is using - whether ascom-only or natively supported.

E.g. I'm currently moving to an Ascom-only camera (at least I believe there isn't native QHY driver integration with with Maxim or SGP).

The upside is the new camera seems to have blazing download speed compared to the ST-8300M I was previously using.


thx .. this is a timely thread for me, btw.


-jeff


Roger Howard
 
Edited

My mirror is locked in place and I am using a moonlite focuser. I’ll reduce the failed solve time allowable and run another set tonight. I just don’t want to use my limited time on extra points I won’t really need. I’m not sure how to only do points around my intended target. Once again my goal is a little more speed as with my schedule I need to be in bed by 8, which is sunset.  The good thing is that I put a telefgizmo cover on  and leave the scope in place over multiple days if the weather permits.  This is just for when I’m only going to do a night, or two.


ap@CaptivePhotons.com
 

My hope was to use NINA as a sequencer.   Which I doubt is callable for plate solving from APPM.

 

I hear that ASTAP will be supported, but is not now.  I hope to get mine in June, am I going to need Pinpoint, or show ASTAP work by then (I won’t be offended by the standard answer of most software which is “no promises of future dates” but if one has been announced… ).

 

While I have TSX now I do not plan to use it with the AP1100.

 

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jeffc via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2021 7:55 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APPM model how many points portable?

 

> I use SGP and ASTAP. A 90 point model takes about a half hour

>> I didn’t think astap was supported in the AP software; or is this coming ASTAP -> SGP -> AP?

 

I have also been thinking about using SGP and ASTAP.

Fwiw: I have been assuming APPM (?) uses SGP to capture and plate solve, and SGP in turn uses ASTAP to do the plate solve.   

... but I'm far from knowledgeable on this, tho I would like to confirm this works or not without burning too many cycles ... But I'll probably just try it sometime soon.

 

Also fwiw I'm still on the SGP learning curve, along with a new camera.  Was using maxim-dl, but I don't have full pinpoint.   (And I've been avoiding TSX from a bad experience with it in the past, which is likely resolved.)  I am almost 100% open at this point for image acquisition apps as long as they don't break the bank or my brain.   e.g. Voyager has been noted in other forums, however it seems to me SGP is more intuitive, and maybe is more supported... and afaik APPM does not work with Voyager.

 

Point is:  there seems to be many variations/options for software these days, which might have varying performance and capability levels.   It would be good to know what works well (at this point in time).

I also am realizing "what works well" may depend on the imaging hardware one is using - whether ascom-only or natively supported.

E.g. I'm currently moving to an Ascom-only camera (at least I believe there isn't native QHY driver integration with with Maxim or SGP).

The upside is the new camera seems to have blazing download speed compared to the ST-8300M I was previously using.

 

thx .. this is a timely thread for me, btw.

 

-jeff


Greg Vaughn
 

Hi Roger,

 

I started off with platesolve2 and SGP to support APPM and found it VERY SLOW.   When I switched to ASTAP as my plate solver in SGP, it sped things up tremendously.  Yes you can use ASTAP in SGP in conjunction with APPM.

 

I had some difficulties recently with APPM that turned out to have nothing to do with the software.   When I used APPM on a larger/longer refractor my 12V power cable on the back of the CMOS cooled camera was catching on something when it got to a certain geometry in the mapping sequence and then the camera failed to take an image because the 12V power was interrupted (12V power is no longer used just for cooling on some of the newer CMOS cameras) – I just couldn’t understand what was happening, 35-45 good solves (I tried varying the number of points in the mapping, thinking that would help) and then it hung.   The break was only at a certain cable angle and then the power would return when it was back in the APPM starting position.  I was in the kitchen working remotely and I couldn’t see the problem that reappeared four times.)  It took another night of troubleshooting a couple weeks later to figure the power problem out.  In the meantime I followed the suggestions from forum participants for my full frame, high MP camera of doing only a ‘½ by ½ center’ frame capture to speed the download – this is selectable in APPM under ‘camera setting’ – which would make sure my downloads weren’t falling behind and creating a problem.  I was already doing Bin 2 platesolves which also seemed to speed the process.  (The other recommendation, which I followed, was to download the 64 bit Beta version of SGP.)  My last two times out with my primary optical train and this configuration (and a new 12V power cable), everything went very quickly and successfully.

 

I don’t know your setup, but you may be interested to know that when I first started with APPM, I was using a Nikon DSLR with SGP.   The instructions from Ray are to set the recording in SGP from the DSLR to FITS images.  My initial attempts to try ‘FITS + RAW’ (thinking that was even better) were unsuccessful.  Choosing ‘FITS’ as instructed  was the cure.

 

A final lesson learned.  I went back to my Nikon DSLR to try a different image train and mount last weekend.   I had difficulties with SGP (64bit) downloading images from the Nikon – even though it showed being properly connected and powered on.  In fact I could download JPEG images for the frame and focus module, but couldn’t download or record any FITS files during an otherwise smoothly running SGP sequence or for APPM.  I received an error from SGP that it couldn’t download the frames and a dialog box saying that some files could not be found and might be restored if I re-installed the software.   I incorrectly thought the reinstallation recommendation was for SGP and I reloaded it without any effect and before giving up.   It turned out to be the ASCOM platform that had the files and needed to be reloaded.   So I went ahead and updated from 6.4 to 6.5SP1 and everything worked well after that (although at that point I was troubleshooting in my basement the following day!).  I setup and ran through a sequence (without guiding) and it worked fine and downloaded images without protest.

 

In general, to get things off to a good start and make sure I have all the right settings, I do the following (regardless of which camera or AP mount):

 

-Focus routine in SGP with Lum filter (or OSC/DSLR)

-Run a ‘Solve and Sync’ in SGP with Lum filter (or OSC/DSLR) to confirm all is well on the SGP end (platesolves using Bin2)

-Open APPM, show points, connect ‘scope’ and ‘camera’ (through SGP)

-Run about a 68-85 point model to cover the partial sky that I can image in (2-3 points per minute, depending on mount and slew speed)

-Accept the model and disconnect the ‘scope’ and ‘camera’ (SGP) from APPM

-Start my sequence

 

This results in excellent pointing and good guiding.  (Guiding improves even more with a good polar alignment.)

 

Hope this helps.  One amateur’s approach.

 

Cheers and clear skies.

 

Greg

 

p.s. I know you asked about how many points for a portable setup – I didn’t answer that and I am interested in that answer as well because right now I have the luxury of 120VAC and will want to use APPM at dark sites as well and not unnecessarily deplete my battery. 

 

Greg Vaughn

Alexandria, VA

 


Virus-free. www.avast.com


Dale Ghent
 

Yes, there is currently no direct cooperation between NINA and APPM at this moment, but that can come in the future and I've worked with Ray to get a proof of concept of APPM->NINA working.

One APPM can utilize ASTAP directly as a solver instead of through a surrogate app, things will be much more straight-forward and lightweight. Currently, I do my APPM run during twilight with it utilizing the camera ASCOM driver (QHY in my case) and TSX as the plate solving provider. Once that's done, I shut all that down and then run my standard NINA stack for imaging through the night. While TSX is fine and functionally does the job of solving what APPM throws at it, it's still a bit slow and the ability to use ASTAP would let me uninstall the TSX monster from my imaging mini PC.

On Apr 11, 2021, at 22:04, ap@CaptivePhotons.com wrote:

My hope was to use NINA as a sequencer. Which I doubt is callable for plate solving from APPM.

I hear that ASTAP will be supported, but is not now. I hope to get mine in June, am I going to need Pinpoint, or show ASTAP work by then (I won’t be offended by the standard answer of most software which is “no promises of future dates” but if one has been announced… ).

While I have TSX now I do not plan to use it with the AP1100.


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jeffc via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2021 7:55 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APPM model how many points portable?

I use SGP and ASTAP. A 90 point model takes about a half hour

I didn’t think astap was supported in the AP software; or is this coming ASTAP -> SGP -> AP?
I have also been thinking about using SGP and ASTAP.
Fwiw: I have been assuming APPM (?) uses SGP to capture and plate solve, and SGP in turn uses ASTAP to do the plate solve.
... but I'm far from knowledgeable on this, tho I would like to confirm this works or not without burning too many cycles ... But I'll probably just try it sometime soon.

Also fwiw I'm still on the SGP learning curve, along with a new camera. Was using maxim-dl, but I don't have full pinpoint. (And I've been avoiding TSX from a bad experience with it in the past, which is likely resolved.) I am almost 100% open at this point for image acquisition apps as long as they don't break the bank or my brain. e.g. Voyager has been noted in other forums, however it seems to me SGP is more intuitive, and maybe is more supported... and afaik APPM does not work with Voyager.

Point is: there seems to be many variations/options for software these days, which might have varying performance and capability levels. It would be good to know what works well (at this point in time).
I also am realizing "what works well" may depend on the imaging hardware one is using - whether ascom-only or natively supported.
E.g. I'm currently moving to an Ascom-only camera (at least I believe there isn't native QHY driver integration with with Maxim or SGP).
The upside is the new camera seems to have blazing download speed compared to the ST-8300M I was previously using.

thx .. this is a timely thread for me, btw.

-jeff


ap@CaptivePhotons.com
 

Hi Dale,

I plan to sell my Paramount when the AP 1100 comes in so TSX will go with it.

Pinpoint is not usable with NINA, right? So I should plan on getting Pinpoint for APPM and keep ASTAP for NINA?

Or do you think there may be different answer by June?

Just trying to get installed and familiar with as much stuff as I can ahead of time.

Is Pinpoint the only non-AP software I'll need to make the AP1100 work? Assuming the polar scope is adequate in itself.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dale Ghent via groups.io
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 8:37 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APPM model how many points portable?


Yes, there is currently no direct cooperation between NINA and APPM at this moment, but that can come in the future and I've worked with Ray to get a proof of concept of APPM->NINA working.

One APPM can utilize ASTAP directly as a solver instead of through a surrogate app, things will be much more straight-forward and lightweight. Currently, I do my APPM run during twilight with it utilizing the camera ASCOM driver (QHY in my case) and TSX as the plate solving provider. Once that's done, I shut all that down and then run my standard NINA stack for imaging through the night. While TSX is fine and functionally does the job of solving what APPM throws at it, it's still a bit slow and the ability to use ASTAP would let me uninstall the TSX monster from my imaging mini PC.


On Apr 11, 2021, at 22:04, ap@CaptivePhotons.com wrote:

My hope was to use NINA as a sequencer. Which I doubt is callable for plate solving from APPM.

I hear that ASTAP will be supported, but is not now. I hope to get mine in June, am I going to need Pinpoint, or show ASTAP work by then (I won’t be offended by the standard answer of most software which is “no promises of future dates” but if one has been announced… ).

While I have TSX now I do not plan to use it with the AP1100.


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jeffc via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2021 7:55 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APPM model how many points portable?

I use SGP and ASTAP. A 90 point model takes about a half hour

I didn’t think astap was supported in the AP software; or is this coming ASTAP -> SGP -> AP?
I have also been thinking about using SGP and ASTAP.
Fwiw: I have been assuming APPM (?) uses SGP to capture and plate solve, and SGP in turn uses ASTAP to do the plate solve.
... but I'm far from knowledgeable on this, tho I would like to confirm this works or not without burning too many cycles ... But I'll probably just try it sometime soon.

Also fwiw I'm still on the SGP learning curve, along with a new camera. Was using maxim-dl, but I don't have full pinpoint. (And I've been avoiding TSX from a bad experience with it in the past, which is likely resolved.) I am almost 100% open at this point for image acquisition apps as long as they don't break the bank or my brain. e.g. Voyager has been noted in other forums, however it seems to me SGP is more intuitive, and maybe is more supported... and afaik APPM does not work with Voyager.

Point is: there seems to be many variations/options for software these days, which might have varying performance and capability levels. It would be good to know what works well (at this point in time).
I also am realizing "what works well" may depend on the imaging hardware one is using - whether ascom-only or natively supported.
E.g. I'm currently moving to an Ascom-only camera (at least I believe there isn't native QHY driver integration with with Maxim or SGP).
The upside is the new camera seems to have blazing download speed compared to the ST-8300M I was previously using.

thx .. this is a timely thread for me, btw.

-jeff


Dale Ghent
 

No, there's no PinPoint support in NINA at the moment. I might get the eval copy of PinPoint and put in support for it at some point, but my time is so limited now that such a project would need to get in line with all the other things on the to-do list for me.

As for APCC being able to use ASTAP, I can't comment on when that will be available. Only Ray, Karen, or Marj would have any authority on release date or other such expectations.

As for your workflow, all you'll need is APCC Pro+APPM, your camera's ASCOM driver, and a plate solver that's supported directly by APPM, such as PinPoint or TSX (and I think you might need the camera add-on for TSX to use Image Link? I'm not 100% sure on that. All I know is that it works for me(tm) and I do have the camera add-on)

One APCC supports ASTAP, you can have it use the same installation of ASTAP that NINA uses.

As for polar alignment, the RAPAS is a fine tool for that, however if you have a lot of cables going through the mount, you might run into complications with those cables interfering with the view of the RAPAS. This is my case with my Mach1, so I use SharpCap Pro's PA tool and my guide camera or main camera to do polar alignment.

On Apr 12, 2021, at 13:28, ap@captivephotons.com <ap@CaptivePhotons.com> wrote:

Hi Dale,

I plan to sell my Paramount when the AP 1100 comes in so TSX will go with it.

Pinpoint is not usable with NINA, right? So I should plan on getting Pinpoint for APPM and keep ASTAP for NINA?

Or do you think there may be different answer by June?

Just trying to get installed and familiar with as much stuff as I can ahead of time.

Is Pinpoint the only non-AP software I'll need to make the AP1100 work? Assuming the polar scope is adequate in itself.


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dale Ghent via groups.io
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 8:37 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APPM model how many points portable?


Yes, there is currently no direct cooperation between NINA and APPM at this moment, but that can come in the future and I've worked with Ray to get a proof of concept of APPM->NINA working.

One APPM can utilize ASTAP directly as a solver instead of through a surrogate app, things will be much more straight-forward and lightweight. Currently, I do my APPM run during twilight with it utilizing the camera ASCOM driver (QHY in my case) and TSX as the plate solving provider. Once that's done, I shut all that down and then run my standard NINA stack for imaging through the night. While TSX is fine and functionally does the job of solving what APPM throws at it, it's still a bit slow and the ability to use ASTAP would let me uninstall the TSX monster from my imaging mini PC.


On Apr 11, 2021, at 22:04, ap@CaptivePhotons.com wrote:

My hope was to use NINA as a sequencer. Which I doubt is callable for plate solving from APPM.

I hear that ASTAP will be supported, but is not now. I hope to get mine in June, am I going to need Pinpoint, or show ASTAP work by then (I won’t be offended by the standard answer of most software which is “no promises of future dates” but if one has been announced… ).

While I have TSX now I do not plan to use it with the AP1100.


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jeffc via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2021 7:55 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APPM model how many points portable?

I use SGP and ASTAP. A 90 point model takes about a half hour

I didn’t think astap was supported in the AP software; or is this coming ASTAP -> SGP -> AP?
I have also been thinking about using SGP and ASTAP.
Fwiw: I have been assuming APPM (?) uses SGP to capture and plate solve, and SGP in turn uses ASTAP to do the plate solve.
... but I'm far from knowledgeable on this, tho I would like to confirm this works or not without burning too many cycles ... But I'll probably just try it sometime soon.

Also fwiw I'm still on the SGP learning curve, along with a new camera. Was using maxim-dl, but I don't have full pinpoint. (And I've been avoiding TSX from a bad experience with it in the past, which is likely resolved.) I am almost 100% open at this point for image acquisition apps as long as they don't break the bank or my brain. e.g. Voyager has been noted in other forums, however it seems to me SGP is more intuitive, and maybe is more supported... and afaik APPM does not work with Voyager.

Point is: there seems to be many variations/options for software these days, which might have varying performance and capability levels. It would be good to know what works well (at this point in time).
I also am realizing "what works well" may depend on the imaging hardware one is using - whether ascom-only or natively supported.
E.g. I'm currently moving to an Ascom-only camera (at least I believe there isn't native QHY driver integration with with Maxim or SGP).
The upside is the new camera seems to have blazing download speed compared to the ST-8300M I was previously using.

thx .. this is a timely thread for me, btw.

-jeff










ap@CaptivePhotons.com
 

Yeah, I have no real need for another plate solver in NINA, ASTAP works great.

So I'll wait to see what developers but expect I might need to get Pinpoint going as well; I've got plenty of disk.

As to cables -- I was told there's LOTS of room even with RAPAS, but I guess the definition of "lots" is subjective. I'm hoping to run 4.

Getting anxious too early, still have a lot of waiting to do...

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dale Ghent via groups.io
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 2:27 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APPM model how many points portable?


No, there's no PinPoint support in NINA at the moment. I might get the eval copy of PinPoint and put in support for it at some point, but my time is so limited now that such a project would need to get in line with all the other things on the to-do list for me.

As for APCC being able to use ASTAP, I can't comment on when that will be available. Only Ray, Karen, or Marj would have any authority on release date or other such expectations.

As for your workflow, all you'll need is APCC Pro+APPM, your camera's ASCOM driver, and a plate solver that's supported directly by APPM, such as PinPoint or TSX (and I think you might need the camera add-on for TSX to use Image Link? I'm not 100% sure on that. All I know is that it works for me(tm) and I do have the camera add-on)

One APCC supports ASTAP, you can have it use the same installation of ASTAP that NINA uses.

As for polar alignment, the RAPAS is a fine tool for that, however if you have a lot of cables going through the mount, you might run into complications with those cables interfering with the view of the RAPAS. This is my case with my Mach1, so I use SharpCap Pro's PA tool and my guide camera or main camera to do polar alignment.

On Apr 12, 2021, at 13:28, ap@captivephotons.com <ap@CaptivePhotons.com> wrote:

Hi Dale,

I plan to sell my Paramount when the AP 1100 comes in so TSX will go with it.

Pinpoint is not usable with NINA, right? So I should plan on getting Pinpoint for APPM and keep ASTAP for NINA?

Or do you think there may be different answer by June?

Just trying to get installed and familiar with as much stuff as I can ahead of time.

Is Pinpoint the only non-AP software I'll need to make the AP1100 work? Assuming the polar scope is adequate in itself.


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dale Ghent via groups.io
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 8:37 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APPM model how many points portable?


Yes, there is currently no direct cooperation between NINA and APPM at this moment, but that can come in the future and I've worked with Ray to get a proof of concept of APPM->NINA working.

One APPM can utilize ASTAP directly as a solver instead of through a surrogate app, things will be much more straight-forward and lightweight. Currently, I do my APPM run during twilight with it utilizing the camera ASCOM driver (QHY in my case) and TSX as the plate solving provider. Once that's done, I shut all that down and then run my standard NINA stack for imaging through the night. While TSX is fine and functionally does the job of solving what APPM throws at it, it's still a bit slow and the ability to use ASTAP would let me uninstall the TSX monster from my imaging mini PC.


On Apr 11, 2021, at 22:04, ap@CaptivePhotons.com wrote:

My hope was to use NINA as a sequencer. Which I doubt is callable for plate solving from APPM.

I hear that ASTAP will be supported, but is not now. I hope to get mine in June, am I going to need Pinpoint, or show ASTAP work by then (I won’t be offended by the standard answer of most software which is “no promises of future dates” but if one has been announced… ).

While I have TSX now I do not plan to use it with the AP1100.


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jeffc via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2021 7:55 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APPM model how many points portable?

I use SGP and ASTAP. A 90 point model takes about a half hour

I didn’t think astap was supported in the AP software; or is this coming ASTAP -> SGP -> AP?
I have also been thinking about using SGP and ASTAP.
Fwiw: I have been assuming APPM (?) uses SGP to capture and plate solve, and SGP in turn uses ASTAP to do the plate solve.
... but I'm far from knowledgeable on this, tho I would like to confirm this works or not without burning too many cycles ... But I'll probably just try it sometime soon.

Also fwiw I'm still on the SGP learning curve, along with a new camera. Was using maxim-dl, but I don't have full pinpoint. (And I've been avoiding TSX from a bad experience with it in the past, which is likely resolved.) I am almost 100% open at this point for image acquisition apps as long as they don't break the bank or my brain. e.g. Voyager has been noted in other forums, however it seems to me SGP is more intuitive, and maybe is more supported... and afaik APPM does not work with Voyager.

Point is: there seems to be many variations/options for software these days, which might have varying performance and capability levels. It would be good to know what works well (at this point in time).
I also am realizing "what works well" may depend on the imaging hardware one is using - whether ascom-only or natively supported.
E.g. I'm currently moving to an Ascom-only camera (at least I believe there isn't native QHY driver integration with with Maxim or SGP).
The upside is the new camera seems to have blazing download speed compared to the ST-8300M I was previously using.

thx .. this is a timely thread for me, btw.

-jeff










Roger Howard
 

I ran a 93 point run last night and it was 1 hour and 2 minutes with a single bad platesolve using SGP and Platesolve 2.  You will have plenty of room for 4 cable with RAPAS installed.


ap@CaptivePhotons.com
 

Thanks for that last.   The hour is not great but good to know about cable.  It was thru-the-mount cabling and AE’s that lured me to the AP1100 instead of Mach 2 (or 10Micron!).

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Roger Howard via groups.io
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 4:31 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APPM model how many points portable?

 

I ran a 93 point run last night and it was 1 hour and 2 minutes with a single bad platesolve using SGP and Platesolve 2.  You will have plenty of room for 4 cable with RAPAS installed.


W Hilmo
 

" and I think you might need the camera add-on for TSX to use Image Link? I'm not 100% sure on that."

You do not need the camera add-on to use TSX as the plate solver in APPM. I have MaxIm, TSX, (full) PinPoint, SGP, NINA, PlateSolve2 and ASTAP and have used them all in various combinations. If I remember right, the capture software and solving software seems to be pretty decoupled from each other in APPM. If you supported capture software, you can independently pick supported plate solve software. For what it's worth, I have found TSX to have a really fast and robust plate solve routine. It seems to do better than the others with difficult to solve fields (either in a star-poor area, or because of passing thin clouds).

Since I've switched to NINA for my image capture, I've used MaxIm as my capture software for APPM. I am looking forward to having both ASCOM camera support and ASTAP support in APPM. If you have a camera with ASCOM drivers (I do), that's going to be a nice configuration that can run independent of your normal capture software.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dale Ghent
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 11:27 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APPM model how many points portable?


No, there's no PinPoint support in NINA at the moment. I might get the eval copy of PinPoint and put in support for it at some point, but my time is so limited now that such a project would need to get in line with all the other things on the to-do list for me.

As for APCC being able to use ASTAP, I can't comment on when that will be available. Only Ray, Karen, or Marj would have any authority on release date or other such expectations.

As for your workflow, all you'll need is APCC Pro+APPM, your camera's ASCOM driver, and a plate solver that's supported directly by APPM, such as PinPoint or TSX (and I think you might need the camera add-on for TSX to use Image Link? I'm not 100% sure on that. All I know is that it works for me(tm) and I do have the camera add-on)

One APCC supports ASTAP, you can have it use the same installation of ASTAP that NINA uses.

As for polar alignment, the RAPAS is a fine tool for that, however if you have a lot of cables going through the mount, you might run into complications with those cables interfering with the view of the RAPAS. This is my case with my Mach1, so I use SharpCap Pro's PA tool and my guide camera or main camera to do polar alignment.

On Apr 12, 2021, at 13:28, ap@captivephotons.com <ap@CaptivePhotons.com> wrote:

Hi Dale,

I plan to sell my Paramount when the AP 1100 comes in so TSX will go with it.

Pinpoint is not usable with NINA, right? So I should plan on getting Pinpoint for APPM and keep ASTAP for NINA?

Or do you think there may be different answer by June?

Just trying to get installed and familiar with as much stuff as I can ahead of time.

Is Pinpoint the only non-AP software I'll need to make the AP1100 work? Assuming the polar scope is adequate in itself.


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dale Ghent via groups.io
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 8:37 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APPM model how many points portable?


Yes, there is currently no direct cooperation between NINA and APPM at this moment, but that can come in the future and I've worked with Ray to get a proof of concept of APPM->NINA working.

One APPM can utilize ASTAP directly as a solver instead of through a surrogate app, things will be much more straight-forward and lightweight. Currently, I do my APPM run during twilight with it utilizing the camera ASCOM driver (QHY in my case) and TSX as the plate solving provider. Once that's done, I shut all that down and then run my standard NINA stack for imaging through the night. While TSX is fine and functionally does the job of solving what APPM throws at it, it's still a bit slow and the ability to use ASTAP would let me uninstall the TSX monster from my imaging mini PC.


On Apr 11, 2021, at 22:04, ap@CaptivePhotons.com wrote:

My hope was to use NINA as a sequencer. Which I doubt is callable for plate solving from APPM.

I hear that ASTAP will be supported, but is not now. I hope to get mine in June, am I going to need Pinpoint, or show ASTAP work by then (I won’t be offended by the standard answer of most software which is “no promises of future dates” but if one has been announced… ).

While I have TSX now I do not plan to use it with the AP1100.


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jeffc via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2021 7:55 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APPM model how many points portable?

I use SGP and ASTAP. A 90 point model takes about a half hour

I didn’t think astap was supported in the AP software; or is this coming ASTAP -> SGP -> AP?
I have also been thinking about using SGP and ASTAP.
Fwiw: I have been assuming APPM (?) uses SGP to capture and plate solve, and SGP in turn uses ASTAP to do the plate solve.
... but I'm far from knowledgeable on this, tho I would like to confirm this works or not without burning too many cycles ... But I'll probably just try it sometime soon.

Also fwiw I'm still on the SGP learning curve, along with a new camera. Was using maxim-dl, but I don't have full pinpoint. (And I've been avoiding TSX from a bad experience with it in the past, which is likely resolved.) I am almost 100% open at this point for image acquisition apps as long as they don't break the bank or my brain. e.g. Voyager has been noted in other forums, however it seems to me SGP is more intuitive, and maybe is more supported... and afaik APPM does not work with Voyager.

Point is: there seems to be many variations/options for software these days, which might have varying performance and capability levels. It would be good to know what works well (at this point in time).
I also am realizing "what works well" may depend on the imaging hardware one is using - whether ascom-only or natively supported.
E.g. I'm currently moving to an Ascom-only camera (at least I believe there isn't native QHY driver integration with with Maxim or SGP).
The upside is the new camera seems to have blazing download speed compared to the ST-8300M I was previously using.

thx .. this is a timely thread for me, btw.

-jeff










Dale Ghent
 

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I've always had the camera add-on for TSX, so when I started using Image Link for the first time for APPM, I wasn't sure if it was something that was a part of the base app or the add-on. I just was happy it worked.

I've never used PinPoint as a solver. As a NINA user and in light of ASTAP et al being supported, would supporting PinPoint be desirable at all? I haven't looked into what an integration would look like on the technical side; if it's just a TCP network API or something else.

On Apr 12, 2021, at 17:17, W Hilmo <y.groups@hilmo.net> wrote:

" and I think you might need the camera add-on for TSX to use Image Link? I'm not 100% sure on that."

You do not need the camera add-on to use TSX as the plate solver in APPM. I have MaxIm, TSX, (full) PinPoint, SGP, NINA, PlateSolve2 and ASTAP and have used them all in various combinations. If I remember right, the capture software and solving software seems to be pretty decoupled from each other in APPM. If you supported capture software, you can independently pick supported plate solve software. For what it's worth, I have found TSX to have a really fast and robust plate solve routine. It seems to do better than the others with difficult to solve fields (either in a star-poor area, or because of passing thin clouds).

Since I've switched to NINA for my image capture, I've used MaxIm as my capture software for APPM. I am looking forward to having both ASCOM camera support and ASTAP support in APPM. If you have a camera with ASCOM drivers (I do), that's going to be a nice configuration that can run independent of your normal capture software.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dale Ghent
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 11:27 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APPM model how many points portable?


No, there's no PinPoint support in NINA at the moment. I might get the eval copy of PinPoint and put in support for it at some point, but my time is so limited now that such a project would need to get in line with all the other things on the to-do list for me.

As for APCC being able to use ASTAP, I can't comment on when that will be available. Only Ray, Karen, or Marj would have any authority on release date or other such expectations.

As for your workflow, all you'll need is APCC Pro+APPM, your camera's ASCOM driver, and a plate solver that's supported directly by APPM, such as PinPoint or TSX (and I think you might need the camera add-on for TSX to use Image Link? I'm not 100% sure on that. All I know is that it works for me(tm) and I do have the camera add-on)

One APCC supports ASTAP, you can have it use the same installation of ASTAP that NINA uses.

As for polar alignment, the RAPAS is a fine tool for that, however if you have a lot of cables going through the mount, you might run into complications with those cables interfering with the view of the RAPAS. This is my case with my Mach1, so I use SharpCap Pro's PA tool and my guide camera or main camera to do polar alignment.

On Apr 12, 2021, at 13:28, ap@captivephotons.com <ap@CaptivePhotons.com> wrote:

Hi Dale,

I plan to sell my Paramount when the AP 1100 comes in so TSX will go with it.

Pinpoint is not usable with NINA, right? So I should plan on getting Pinpoint for APPM and keep ASTAP for NINA?

Or do you think there may be different answer by June?

Just trying to get installed and familiar with as much stuff as I can ahead of time.

Is Pinpoint the only non-AP software I'll need to make the AP1100 work? Assuming the polar scope is adequate in itself.


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dale Ghent via groups.io
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 8:37 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APPM model how many points portable?


Yes, there is currently no direct cooperation between NINA and APPM at this moment, but that can come in the future and I've worked with Ray to get a proof of concept of APPM->NINA working.

One APPM can utilize ASTAP directly as a solver instead of through a surrogate app, things will be much more straight-forward and lightweight. Currently, I do my APPM run during twilight with it utilizing the camera ASCOM driver (QHY in my case) and TSX as the plate solving provider. Once that's done, I shut all that down and then run my standard NINA stack for imaging through the night. While TSX is fine and functionally does the job of solving what APPM throws at it, it's still a bit slow and the ability to use ASTAP would let me uninstall the TSX monster from my imaging mini PC.


On Apr 11, 2021, at 22:04, ap@CaptivePhotons.com wrote:

My hope was to use NINA as a sequencer. Which I doubt is callable for plate solving from APPM.

I hear that ASTAP will be supported, but is not now. I hope to get mine in June, am I going to need Pinpoint, or show ASTAP work by then (I won’t be offended by the standard answer of most software which is “no promises of future dates” but if one has been announced… ).

While I have TSX now I do not plan to use it with the AP1100.


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jeffc via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2021 7:55 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APPM model how many points portable?

I use SGP and ASTAP. A 90 point model takes about a half hour

I didn’t think astap was supported in the AP software; or is this coming ASTAP -> SGP -> AP?
I have also been thinking about using SGP and ASTAP.
Fwiw: I have been assuming APPM (?) uses SGP to capture and plate solve, and SGP in turn uses ASTAP to do the plate solve.
... but I'm far from knowledgeable on this, tho I would like to confirm this works or not without burning too many cycles ... But I'll probably just try it sometime soon.

Also fwiw I'm still on the SGP learning curve, along with a new camera. Was using maxim-dl, but I don't have full pinpoint. (And I've been avoiding TSX from a bad experience with it in the past, which is likely resolved.) I am almost 100% open at this point for image acquisition apps as long as they don't break the bank or my brain. e.g. Voyager has been noted in other forums, however it seems to me SGP is more intuitive, and maybe is more supported... and afaik APPM does not work with Voyager.

Point is: there seems to be many variations/options for software these days, which might have varying performance and capability levels. It would be good to know what works well (at this point in time).
I also am realizing "what works well" may depend on the imaging hardware one is using - whether ascom-only or natively supported.
E.g. I'm currently moving to an Ascom-only camera (at least I believe there isn't native QHY driver integration with with Maxim or SGP).
The upside is the new camera seems to have blazing download speed compared to the ST-8300M I was previously using.

thx .. this is a timely thread for me, btw.

-jeff





















Worsel
 

In this thread https://ap-gto.groups.io/g/main/topic/81406546#77145

Ray mentions that Dec-arc modeling is done, but other enhancements, including ASTAP as an integral plate solver to APPM, rather than an add-on via SGP, are in the works but release date is still fluid.  The above thread is only a month old.

Bryan