Apparent need for multiple power supplies
Does one really need multiple power supplies? If I am reading the AP 1600GTO manual correctly I need a power supply dedicated to the mount. My SBIG camera (with filter wheel and OAG camera) has another power supply. The OTA manual also says that there should be a separate power supply for the heater/fans and one for the controller of the heater/fans. If I add an Intel NUC and a powered USB hub, they also have power needs but no requirement that they be separate.
I am looking for a reason why they need to be separate. They all need 12vdc. I have an Astron Model RS35M linear, regulated power supply set at 13.8vdc. It is rated for 25 amps continuous and 35 amps peak. This is not a switching power supply. I would feed the mount with its own 12 awg wires as well as through the mount with 12 awg wires. There would be no voltage drop even if everything is running full tilt. So, am I missing some electrical engineering design issue that would require more than one power supply? If I were in the field, I would likely only have one battery. I am hoping to simplify the wiring layout and reduce the need of multiple (rf noisy) switching power supplies. Thanks! Kevin Rodeo New Mexico |
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vk3cjk
Hi Kevin, With a linear supply, the input and output are totally isolated via the transformer. This is not so with at least some (if not the majority) of switch mode power supplies. I've lost count of how many times I've felt the 50 Hz current when I've touched a device powered by a SMPS. I would run a separately-fused supply cable to each device from the linear supply. Cheers, Chris Victoria, Australia Does one really need multiple power supplies? If I am reading the AP 1600GTO manual correctly I need a power supply dedicated to the mount. My SBIG camera (with filter wheel and OAG camera) has another power supply. The OTA manual also says that there should be a separate power supply for the heater/fans and one for the controller of the heater/fans. If I add an Intel NUC and a powered USB hub, they also have power needs but no requirement that they be separate. |
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Good point on the fuses. I would use an Anderson power pole distribution strip which would allow me to select the appropriate fuse size for each device. https://powerwerx.com/west-mountain-radio-rigrunner-4005
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Jeffc
I run all 12volt (and usb) stuff off a single GoalZero Yeti 1500x Li-Ion “generator” wired with PowerPoles. This is for camera/filter-wheel, Pegasus UPBV2 , dew heaters , windows computer , WiFi box , focus motor , and MGBox. The mach2 is powered by the AP supplied 24v power brick on 110v AC which is also supplied by the GZ with the built in true sine wave inverter.
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The GZ was mainly my field setup, but I use it at home to simplify things and also keep the field and home setups consistent. During the day the GZ is recharged from 4 portable solar panels putting out about 300 watts. Works fine. (However, at the moment the GZ is operating as a 24/7 UPS for the home networking infrastructure due to the “unprecedented” inclement weather and possible power outages.) Back in the day I’d run the gear off separate 12v batteries - optima yellow tops. Especially separating out the dew heaters which sucked a lot of energy. On Jan 12, 2023, at 10:05 PM, Kevin via groups.io <fourstar4sale@...> wrote:
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Dew heaters are famous for interfering with sensitive cameras. They use a lot of current and switch one and off regularly, which can put spikes on the supply going to other devices. The proper application of inductors, capacitors and power resistors can resolve those spikes. Does one really need multiple power supplies? If I am reading the AP 1600GTO manual correctly I need a power supply dedicated to the mount. My SBIG camera (with filter wheel and OAG camera) has another power supply. The OTA manual also says that there should be a separate power supply for the heater/fans and one for the controller of the heater/fans. If I add an Intel NUC and a powered USB hub, they also have power needs but no requirement that they be separate. |
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Greg McCall
First, battery systems that say 12v are a nominal voltage just to identify the system. (Compared to 24v or 48v etc which are also nominal voltages) Typically 13.8v is used in a 12v system and can go over 14v if charging a battery. The key is not to exceed the equipment voltage specs (which is often more like 16v). Always best to err on slightly higher voltage but under the max voltage to allow for voltage drop and the higher voltage will draw less current anyway as most devices sink the same power) I think a lot of issues are caused by inadequate power supplies or too small a battery and thin cables (supplying other thin cables). Suggestion of multiple supplies is more of a Band-Aid rather than a solution. Using a decent battery (say a 100AH lifepo4) which won’t have its voltage pulled up and down with motors or due straps is another key. (Or the equivalent MAINS supply and always err on over kill ). The problems occur with thin cables and voltage drop. Where possible, keep power cables short and thick. Overkill of 8 gauge is fine up to a distribution point is fine, particularly on longer runs. 12 guage is great to high current and 18 gauge should be minimal unless ist a really low current device. Thicker & shorter cables will control voltage drops, particularly when some high current devices turn on. Only distribute power where you must (eg. on the OTA). Keeping wire distribution as close to a decent power supply (or decent battery) will solve most problems. I use a separate dc-dc adapter to drive a 19v Intel NUC (“12v” to 19v) and another adapter for “12” to 24v to drive the Mach2. Does one really need multiple power supplies? If I am reading the AP 1600GTO manual correctly I need a power supply dedicated to the mount. My SBIG camera (with filter wheel and OAG camera) has another power supply. The OTA manual also says that there should be a separate power supply for the heater/fans and one for the controller of the heater/fans. If I add an Intel NUC and a powered USB hub, they also have power needs but no requirement that they be separate. |
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Hi Kevin
I have been using two of the Powerwerx 25 Amp variable voltage power supplies. One of them feeds my AP 1100 mount and SBIG camera, and the other feeds the dew heaters, laptop, and other peripheral equipment. Each power supply feeds into a separate Rigrunner which I have attached to my 8" portable pier. I sank a 10 ft grounding rod in the ground where I set up my equipment, and I have a grounding strap attached to the pier. With one exception, everything in my setup is powered through one of the Rigrunners, but some of the equipment requires different voltage. The laptop power supply uses 19 Volts DC, and the Icron Ranger uses 24 Volts DC. I use 12V DC - DC inverters to step up the 13.8 V coming from the power supply through the Rigrunner to provide the 19V for the laptop and 24V for the Icron Ranger. There is no question that all of this could be fed off just one of the power supplies. The mount and camera together seldom draw over 3.5 amps. The dew heater with two heating straps only draws about 3 amps at even at 100% output. Unless they are very short lived, I have never seen any voltage or current spikes coming from the dew heaters. I understand that the Kendrick DigiFire controller suppresses these spikes. The only spikes I ever see occur when I plug the laptop power cable in. If the laptop battery is low, I will see a momentary surge in current up to about 3.5 amps when I first plug the laptop in. I have gotten in the habit of plugging the laptop in before I start up anything else. All this is to say that If I ever go mobile with my setup, I have everything set up where I could run it off of a single battery, but to date, I have never done this. Mike |
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Pawel Lancucki
Hi Kevin one for dew control. actually purchased a commercial spectral analyzer and built a special |
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Linwood Ferguson
On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 12:37 AM, vk3cjk wrote:
One thing I always do, and the above illustrates a good reason (the complete isolation in some cases), is make sure multiple supplies' common (ground) are connected together, so there is no floating voltage difference between them. A key reason is that the underlying, separately fed devices are often connected by a USB cable, with a shield, that otherwise becomes a current conductor with associated noise (or in really extreme cases damage). The rigrunners and similar are great for this, just use separate ones but hook one black wire between each. At AP's suggestion I separated my supplies for home use (about 95% or more), but in the field I use one large battery. Despite lots of dew heat I have yet to see any noise difference in the images. I had it wired to be able to use separate batteries, but never found a need. HOWEVER, I found early on that my flats panel (a spike-a-flat which I run at 100%, so not PWM driven) if it is on the same power supply as my NUC, I get pattern noise on the flats. I ended up buying a small 12v battery for it, about playing-card size which I velcro to the panel. This completely isolation for the flats panel solved my issue. I tried all sorts of isolation and filters without success, the separate battery was a cheap and complete solution. I did a lot of experimenting, it was definitely the NUC and not heaters or other devices. A real, genuine Intel NUC running at 12v also, not a knockoff. Linwood |
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>>>I did a lot of experimenting, it was definitely the NUC and not heaters or other devices. A real, genuine Intel NUC running at 12v also, not a knockoff. I agree the NUC has caused issues for me as well. Depending on the CPU load, the power usage varies widely as well. I haven't measured, but I wouldn't be surprised if NUC power varied as much or more than dew heaters On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 7:49 AM ap@... <ap@...> wrote: On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 12:37 AM, vk3cjk wrote: --
Brian Brian Valente astro portfolio https://www.brianvalentephotography.com/astrophotography/ portfolio brianvalentephotography.com |
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Bill Long
Good to know. I just finished prepping a new i7 NUC for a remote scope. I'll have to keep this in mind.
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Valente <bvalente@...>
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2023 7:53 AM To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Apparent need for multiple power supplies >>>I did a lot of experimenting, it was definitely the NUC and not heaters or other devices. A real, genuine Intel NUC running at 12v also, not a knockoff.
I agree the NUC has caused issues for me as well. Depending on the CPU load, the power usage varies widely as well. I haven't measured, but I wouldn't be surprised if NUC power varied as much or more than dew heaters
On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 7:49 AM ap@... <ap@...> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 12:37 AM, vk3cjk wrote: Brian
Brian Valente
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Jeffc
Interesting note on the NUC and power affects on other devices.
I do wonder if the current crop (or even not so recent crop) of i7 or i5 processors is necessary for what we typically use them for. Last year I “upgraded” from an i5 to a 4 core N5105. 12v powered. Less heat.. less power consumption. Anyhow, I found the N5105 totally adequate for image acquisition and occasional PI usage. (I process images on a M1 (apple silicon) laptop, so there is that caveat.) I’m guessing the current crop of beefy “gaming” NUCs (phantom canyon?) are perhaps potentially also problematic. |
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Linwood Ferguson
On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 04:26 PM, Jeffc wrote:
Interesting note on the NUC and power affects on other devices.I think partly this depends on people doing EAA or live stacking activities, and also doing high speed video for planetary (though probably to a lesser degree). I do none of that, and have a several year old I5-8259U, that is more than adequate. I just bought a newer 11th gen I5-1145G7, which is super fast, as a player piano controller which will also be my backup telescope NUC. It's blindly fast compared to the Z83 it replaced, so also way more than I need for the telescope (or the piano) but it was affordable (as Intel NUC's go) and also 12v. It's interesting, there were a whole run of 19v min NUC's out there in one generation, made it look like they were going 19v only, then the next one they have around half that are 12v. So maybe someone is paying attention to embedded use. Interestingly my newest (NUC11TNHV50L) has a case labeled for 19v only (more precisely it only shows 19v), but the specs say 12v is fine, and I tried it and it runs fine on 12v -- but hits pretty high amperage at times, I think the specs say up to 5A or maybe it was 6A). All in all I still feel paying for the real Intel is worth it, no fighting with weird bios settings, half-working wifi, etc. Especially if not running windows (my piano is Linux). The Intel NUC's are rock solid and not flakey. Just expensive. Linwood |
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>>> doing high speed video for planetary (though probably to a lesser degree). I think particularly for planetary! I needed to upgrade to an i5 from a 5105 for high frame rates (around 200fps) Now i can record that fps to disk while pulling the previous file via shared folder and note drop any frames, including some more advanced features like debayer on-the-fly, tracking region-of-interest, etc. The problems I had with nuc power interference were older models that may not have been as power friendly? Lenovo ThinkCentre Brian On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 1:41 PM ap@... <ap@...> wrote: On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 04:26 PM, Jeffc wrote: --
Brian Brian Valente astro portfolio https://www.brianvalentephotography.com/astrophotography/ portfolio brianvalentephotography.com |
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Thank to each and every one who responded, there are gems of wisdom in every posting.
I will have an Optec's Alnitak Flat-Man XL, it will be wall mounted and have its own dedicated power supply. I will be sure to use ferrites on the USB cable from it to suppress common mode noise. I would be using an Intel NUC. While the power supply which come with it is 19VDC, the actual engineering specs are 12-19VDC, Intel has confirmed in one of its forums that 12VDC is perfectly fine. As to dew heaters, they may very well be noisy. Fortunately for me, I will seldom or if ever have the dew heaters on - the benefit of being in a high desert location. My linear power supply weighs about 27 lbs. vs a comparable switching power supply would weigh about 5 lbs. Also, the linear power supply can easily cost twice as much, think CCD vs CMOS. Again, all these responses will be very helpful as I finalize the design of my setup. Kevin |
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Andrew Arai
On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 01:03 AM, Greg McCall wrote:
I use a separate dc-dc adapter to drive a 19v Intel NUC (“12v” to 19v) and another adapter for “12” to 24v to drive the Mach2.Greg, What DC-DC adapters are you using? I'm trying to figure out how to either raise voltage for a NUC or alternatively get a 24 volt battery and decrease it for the computer and my Pegasus box. Are your DC-DC adapters noisy? Is it preferable to decrease voltage over increasing voltages? Andrew |
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Greg McCall
I got mine from I think aliexpress but I think Amazon have them as well. It’s at least a 10A unit as I think conservative is better. I think 12v->19v is better and available of the shelf. Note that my intel NUC has from memory a 2.5mm centre pin and not the normal 2.1mm centre pin. I also have a 12->24 next to it with an inline fuse and powerpole connector. Both units mounted on a bit of wood and a fused 12v powerpole setup. I can plug the mach2 into the 24v or the 12v powerpole. I used a DC-DC converter set at 24v with variable input because the Mach2 is designed for 24v supply and not a 24v (nominal) battery which can get over 27v when being charged and AP suggested not to exceed about 26v I’ve also put a ferrite suppressor around the output cable to help reduce noise in the cable. On Sat, 14 Jan 2023 at 9:41 am, Andrew Arai <andrewarai@...> wrote: On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 01:03 AM, Greg McCall wrote: |
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>>>I got mine from I think aliexpress but I think Amazon have them as well. It’s at least a 10A unit as I think conservative is better. Strangely Amazon stopped selling them within the past few years. it seems like aliexpress or eBay are the only places to get them I think Linwood may have mentioned this earlier but I had a 19v nuc, and i said heck let me just plug in 12v and it worked fine. so I may have a spare 12-19v if you need it ;) On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 6:57 PM Greg McCall <emailgregnow@...> wrote:
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Brian Brian Valente astro portfolio https://www.brianvalentephotography.com/astrophotography/ portfolio brianvalentephotography.com |
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I have purchased the DC - DC converters from Current Logic before. The ones I am currently using are Uxcell converters that I got off Amazon.
Current Logic Online Shop, Pro Power Converters (current-logic.com) Mike |
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Andrew Arai
Thank you for the explanations and the photos. These are exactly the type of devices I have been exploring but I would not have thought about the ferrite chokes.
Andrew |
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