Topics

AP 1100 - 2 minutes unguided


Bruce Donzanti
 
Edited

I can go up to almost 60' without guiding.  Is it possible to get the mount to go up to 2 minutes unguided?  If yes, I am assuming it would be by getting the PE down as best as possible given all other variables are at peak performance (perfect balance, no cable drag, excellent seeing, excellent pool alignment, etc).  Or is this not possible? Note: I am guiding now with PHD2 and it works fine.  Just asking but would be good to do this when using the hyperstar on the C11".


bob
 

To many factors to consider. FL, alignment, seeing, all play a part in just how long you can go. I can confirm that a few years ago using my 140 f/7 and an ST-10 on a 900 mount, I could get 5-6 minutes. With a C11, that may not be possible. Just do 2 minutes then 3 minutes and so on tell you find the max point.   



From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Bruce Donzanti <donza2735@...>
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 5:42 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: [ap-gto] AP 1100 - 2 minutes unguided
 

[Edited Message Follows]

I can go up to almost 60' without guiding.  Is it possible to get the mount to go up to 2 minutes unguided?  If yes, I am assuming it would be by getting the PE down as best as possible given all other variables are at peak performance (perfect balance, no cable drag, excellent seeing, excellent pool alignment, etc).  Or is this not possible? Note: I am guiding now with PHD2 and it works fine.  Just asking but would be good to do this when using the hyperstar on the C11".


Bruce Donzanti
 

ok- thanks for your input


Frost David
 

Bruce,

I always shot my RASA unguided on my 1100.  That’s basically what you’re hyperstar is.  You’re probably only shooting 60-90 second images with that.  I just aligned with my RAPAS and started shooting.  

For longer shots unguided, just do a big pointing model with APCC Pro and do a very good polar alignment and it should be no problem going 5-10 minutes unguided at that short focal length.  Roland has done some 15 minute ones with a very long focal length scope and the shots look great.

David



On Jan 31, 2020, at 11:18 AM, Bruce Donzanti <donza2735@...> wrote:

ok- thanks for your input


Joe Renzetti <axnyslie@...>
 

I usually do 90 seconds with my C14 Hyperstar & 1100 unguided for narrowband if it's a particularly faint DSO then 120 seconds. But there will be a few subs discarded usually due to mirror flop. I don't guide because of the differential flexure it would actually make it worse. Good polar alignment helps a lot I once did a drift alignment with a 72ED refactor and PHD2 and when that was accurate I aligned the RAPAS to where the app said it should be so now it's always a quick easy alignment. Where the object is in the sky is also a factor I find it's better in the north sky and due East & West because the mirror is more stable there.

Joe


On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 12:25 PM Frost David <frosty5@...> wrote:
Bruce,

I always shot my RASA unguided on my 1100.  That’s basically what you’re hyperstar is.  You’re probably only shooting 60-90 second images with that.  I just aligned with my RAPAS and started shooting.  

For longer shots unguided, just do a big pointing model with APCC Pro and do a very good polar alignment and it should be no problem going 5-10 minutes unguided at that short focal length.  Roland has done some 15 minute ones with a very long focal length scope and the shots look great.

David



On Jan 31, 2020, at 11:18 AM, Bruce Donzanti <donza2735@...> wrote:

ok- thanks for your input


Mike Shade
 

I can do 5 minutes unguided with my 1600GTO and Planewave 17 at 2935mm fl and .63"/pixel.  Permanent setup, very good drift polar alignment. Depends on other factors than the mount.

 

Mike J. Shade: mshade@q.com

Mike J. Shade Photography:

mshadephotography.com

 

In War: Resolution

In Defeat: Defiance

In Victory: Magnanimity

In Peace: Goodwill

Sir Winston Churchill

Already, in the gathering dusk, a few of the stars are turning on their lights.

Vega, the brightest one, is now dropping towards the west.  Can it be half

a year since I watched her April rising in the east?  Low in the southwest

Antares blinks a sad farwell to fall...

Leslie Peltier, Starlight Nights

 

International Dark Sky Association: www.darksky.org

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bruce Donzanti
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 6:42 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: [ap-gto] AP 1100 - 2 minutes unguided

 

I can go up to almost 60' without guiding.  Is it possible to get the mount to go up to 2 minutes unguided?  If yes, I am assuming it would be by getting the PE down as best as possible given all other variables are at peak performance (perfect balance, no cable drag, excellent seeing, excellent pool alignment, etc).  Or is this not possible? Note: I am guiding now with PHD2 and it works fine.  Just asking.


 

mike do you have the absolute encoders on that mount?

and just curious if you're using APPC/APPM on that unguided


Brian

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 12:37 PM Mike Shade <mshade@q.com> wrote:

I can do 5 minutes unguided with my 1600GTO and Planewave 17 at 2935mm fl and .63"/pixel.  Permanent setup, very good drift polar alignment. Depends on other factors than the mount.

 

Mike J. Shade: mshade@q.com

Mike J. Shade Photography:

mshadephotography.com

 

In War: Resolution

In Defeat: Defiance

In Victory: Magnanimity

In Peace: Goodwill

Sir Winston Churchill

Already, in the gathering dusk, a few of the stars are turning on their lights.

Vega, the brightest one, is now dropping towards the west.  Can it be half

a year since I watched her April rising in the east?  Low in the southwest

Antares blinks a sad farwell to fall...

Leslie Peltier, Starlight Nights

 

International Dark Sky Association: www.darksky.org

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bruce Donzanti
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 6:42 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: [ap-gto] AP 1100 - 2 minutes unguided

 

I can go up to almost 60' without guiding.  Is it possible to get the mount to go up to 2 minutes unguided?  If yes, I am assuming it would be by getting the PE down as best as possible given all other variables are at peak performance (perfect balance, no cable drag, excellent seeing, excellent pool alignment, etc).  Or is this not possible? Note: I am guiding now with PHD2 and it works fine.  Just asking.



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


Bruce Donzanti
 

Thanks, Joe.  I have excellent polar alignment in my permanent observatory.  I'll give it a go and see how far I can push the exposure time.
  

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 1:36 PM Joe Renzetti <axnyslie@...> wrote:
I usually do 90 seconds with my C14 Hyperstar & 1100 unguided for narrowband if it's a particularly faint DSO then 120 seconds. But there will be a few subs discarded usually due to mirror flop. I don't guide because of the differential flexure it would actually make it worse. Good polar alignment helps a lot I once did a drift alignment with a 72ED refactor and PHD2 and when that was accurate I aligned the RAPAS to where the app said it should be so now it's always a quick easy alignment. Where the object is in the sky is also a factor I find it's better in the north sky and due East & West because the mirror is more stable there.

Joe

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 12:25 PM Frost David <frosty5@...> wrote:
Bruce,

I always shot my RASA unguided on my 1100.  That’s basically what you’re hyperstar is.  You’re probably only shooting 60-90 second images with that.  I just aligned with my RAPAS and started shooting.  

For longer shots unguided, just do a big pointing model with APCC Pro and do a very good polar alignment and it should be no problem going 5-10 minutes unguided at that short focal length.  Roland has done some 15 minute ones with a very long focal length scope and the shots look great.

David



On Jan 31, 2020, at 11:18 AM, Bruce Donzanti <donza2735@...> wrote:

ok- thanks for your input


Bruce Donzanti
 

Thanks all for the additional feedback.  I'll see how far I can go next time I put the hyperstar on.  I have excellent polar alignment in my permanent observatory and other than sky conditions, I think I have the rest as best as I can get it.  I'll just keep guiding at f/7 on the C11" EdgeHD since it works despite it being finicky at times.


 

Bruce - how do you polar align?

i ask because i used to think i had excellent polar alignment via polemaster, until i realized how "accurate" it was (and i use that term loosely).

Now that i polar align via another method (sharpcap) i am doing 5 min unguided exposures. It's on a different mount, but i wanted to emphasize the point you made, excellent PA is critical for unguided

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 1:24 PM Bruce Donzanti <donza2735@...> wrote:
Thanks all for the additional feedback.  I'll see how far I can go next time I put the hyperstar on.  I have excellent polar alignment in my permanent observatory and other than sky conditions, I think I have the rest as best as I can get it.  I'll just keep guiding at f/7 on the C11" EdgeHD since it works despite it being finicky at times.



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


Bruce Donzanti
 

Actually, the same as you just described.  I started out using Polemaster and now use SharpCap.  So, "excellent" per the definition and limits set by SharpCap.

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 4:27 PM Brian Valente <bvalente@...> wrote:
Bruce - how do you polar align?

i ask because i used to think i had excellent polar alignment via polemaster, until i realized how "accurate" it was (and i use that term loosely).

Now that i polar align via another method (sharpcap) i am doing 5 min unguided exposures. It's on a different mount, but i wanted to emphasize the point you made, excellent PA is critical for unguided

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 1:24 PM Bruce Donzanti <donza2735@...> wrote:
Thanks all for the additional feedback.  I'll see how far I can go next time I put the hyperstar on.  I have excellent polar alignment in my permanent observatory and other than sky conditions, I think I have the rest as best as I can get it.  I'll just keep guiding at f/7 on the C11" EdgeHD since it works despite it being finicky at times.



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


 

good to hear great minds think alike, or at least, my feeble mind thinks like other great minds!

Brian

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 1:29 PM Bruce Donzanti <donza2735@...> wrote:
Actually, the same as you just described.  I started out using Polemaster and now use SharpCap.  So, "excellent" per the definition and limits set by SharpCap.

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 4:27 PM Brian Valente <bvalente@...> wrote:
Bruce - how do you polar align?

i ask because i used to think i had excellent polar alignment via polemaster, until i realized how "accurate" it was (and i use that term loosely).

Now that i polar align via another method (sharpcap) i am doing 5 min unguided exposures. It's on a different mount, but i wanted to emphasize the point you made, excellent PA is critical for unguided

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 1:24 PM Bruce Donzanti <donza2735@...> wrote:
Thanks all for the additional feedback.  I'll see how far I can go next time I put the hyperstar on.  I have excellent polar alignment in my permanent observatory and other than sky conditions, I think I have the rest as best as I can get it.  I'll just keep guiding at f/7 on the C11" EdgeHD since it works despite it being finicky at times.



--
Brian 



Brian Valente



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


Bruce Donzanti
 

well, let's just stick that we think alike and hold-off on the great part....at least for a few more years :-)


On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 4:30 PM Brian Valente <bvalente@...> wrote:
good to hear great minds think alike, or at least, my feeble mind thinks like other great minds!

Brian

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 1:29 PM Bruce Donzanti <donza2735@...> wrote:
Actually, the same as you just described.  I started out using Polemaster and now use SharpCap.  So, "excellent" per the definition and limits set by SharpCap.

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 4:27 PM Brian Valente <bvalente@...> wrote:
Bruce - how do you polar align?

i ask because i used to think i had excellent polar alignment via polemaster, until i realized how "accurate" it was (and i use that term loosely).

Now that i polar align via another method (sharpcap) i am doing 5 min unguided exposures. It's on a different mount, but i wanted to emphasize the point you made, excellent PA is critical for unguided

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 1:24 PM Bruce Donzanti <donza2735@...> wrote:
Thanks all for the additional feedback.  I'll see how far I can go next time I put the hyperstar on.  I have excellent polar alignment in my permanent observatory and other than sky conditions, I think I have the rest as best as I can get it.  I'll just keep guiding at f/7 on the C11" EdgeHD since it works despite it being finicky at times.



--
Brian 



Brian Valente



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


uncarollo2 <chris1011@aol.com>
 

Check and update your Periodic error with PEMPro. The 1100 mount can easily do 5 minutes unguided to sub-arc sec accuracy. You will need a model of course, since the stars in various parts of the sky are going to drift in RA and Dec regardless of how well you polar align. Without a model and without PE correction you cannot hope to do unguided imaging with any high resolution scope/camera combination.

What i wrote above is fundamental and should be known to all imagers.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Valente <bvalente@...>
To: main <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Jan 31, 2020 3:27 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] AP 1100 - 2 minutes unguided

Bruce - how do you polar align?

i ask because i used to think i had excellent polar alignment via polemaster, until i realized how "accurate" it was (and i use that term loosely).

Now that i polar align via another method (sharpcap) i am doing 5 min unguided exposures. It's on a different mount, but i wanted to emphasize the point you made, excellent PA is critical for unguided

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 1:24 PM Bruce Donzanti <donza2735@...> wrote:
Thanks all for the additional feedback.  I'll see how far I can go next time I put the hyperstar on.  I have excellent polar alignment in my permanent observatory and other than sky conditions, I think I have the rest as best as I can get it.  I'll just keep guiding at f/7 on the C11" EdgeHD since it works despite it being finicky at times.


--
Brian 



Brian Valente


Bruce Donzanti
 

yes- I mention/ask about PE correction in my opening email on the topic.  It was the modeling part I was missing.  Thanks for confirming and the additional information. 


George
 

Brian,

 

If you want to take accuracy up a notch, try the RA Corrective Method.   It will improve your imaging in the area from 45 degrees to the zenith…where we usually image.   See:

https://astro-physics.info/tech_support/mounts/drift-alignment-ra-correction-method.pdf

 

Regards,

 

George

 

George Whitney

Astro-Physics, Inc.

Phone:  815-282-1513

Email:  george@...

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bruce Donzanti
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 3:29 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] AP 1100 - 2 minutes unguided

 

Actually, the same as you just described.  I started out using Polemaster and now use SharpCap.  So, "excellent" per the definition and limits set by SharpCap.

 

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 4:27 PM Brian Valente <bvalente@...> wrote:

Bruce - how do you polar align?

 

i ask because i used to think i had excellent polar alignment via polemaster, until i realized how "accurate" it was (and i use that term loosely).

 

Now that i polar align via another method (sharpcap) i am doing 5 min unguided exposures. It's on a different mount, but i wanted to emphasize the point you made, excellent PA is critical for unguided

 

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 1:24 PM Bruce Donzanti <donza2735@...> wrote:

Thanks all for the additional feedback.  I'll see how far I can go next time I put the hyperstar on.  I have excellent polar alignment in my permanent observatory and other than sky conditions, I think I have the rest as best as I can get it.  I'll just keep guiding at f/7 on the C11" EdgeHD since it works despite it being finicky at times.


 

--

Brian 

 

 

 

Brian Valente


 

George - you are consistent! 

That is what your proposed (and we are planning to do) with the 1600 at obstech :)


Brian


On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 1:49 PM George <george@...> wrote:

Brian,

 

If you want to take accuracy up a notch, try the RA Corrective Method.   It will improve your imaging in the area from 45 degrees to the zenith…where we usually image.   See:

https://astro-physics.info/tech_support/mounts/drift-alignment-ra-correction-method.pdf

 

Regards,

 

George

 

George Whitney

Astro-Physics, Inc.

Phone:  815-282-1513

Email:  george@...

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bruce Donzanti
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 3:29 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] AP 1100 - 2 minutes unguided

 

Actually, the same as you just described.  I started out using Polemaster and now use SharpCap.  So, "excellent" per the definition and limits set by SharpCap.

 

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 4:27 PM Brian Valente <bvalente@...> wrote:

Bruce - how do you polar align?

 

i ask because i used to think i had excellent polar alignment via polemaster, until i realized how "accurate" it was (and i use that term loosely).

 

Now that i polar align via another method (sharpcap) i am doing 5 min unguided exposures. It's on a different mount, but i wanted to emphasize the point you made, excellent PA is critical for unguided

 

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 1:24 PM Bruce Donzanti <donza2735@...> wrote:

Thanks all for the additional feedback.  I'll see how far I can go next time I put the hyperstar on.  I have excellent polar alignment in my permanent observatory and other than sky conditions, I think I have the rest as best as I can get it.  I'll just keep guiding at f/7 on the C11" EdgeHD since it works despite it being finicky at times.


 

--

Brian 

 

 

 

Brian Valente



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


Mike Shade
 

No, I do not have encoders nor do I use APCC.  It is a permanent setup with a very accurate PEC curve and polar alignment.  Everything on the OTA is tight, camera and focuser are screw together interface.  I do not generally go unguided though, my sub exposures are 10 minutes.

 

Mike J. Shade: mshade@q.com

Mike J. Shade Photography:

mshadephotography.com

 

In War: Resolution

In Defeat: Defiance

In Victory: Magnanimity

In Peace: Goodwill

Sir Winston Churchill

Already, in the gathering dusk, a few of the stars are turning on their lights.

Vega, the brightest one, is now dropping towards the west.  Can it be half

a year since I watched her April rising in the east?  Low in the southwest

Antares blinks a sad farwell to fall...

Leslie Peltier, Starlight Nights

 

International Dark Sky Association: www.darksky.org

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Valente
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 1:39 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] AP 1100 - 2 minutes unguided

 

mike do you have the absolute encoders on that mount?

 

and just curious if you're using APPC/APPM on that unguided

 

 

Brian

 

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 12:37 PM Mike Shade <mshade@q.com> wrote:

I can do 5 minutes unguided with my 1600GTO and Planewave 17 at 2935mm fl and .63"/pixel.  Permanent setup, very good drift polar alignment. Depends on other factors than the mount.

 

Mike J. Shade: mshade@q.com

Mike J. Shade Photography:

mshadephotography.com

 

In War: Resolution

In Defeat: Defiance

In Victory: Magnanimity

In Peace: Goodwill

Sir Winston Churchill

Already, in the gathering dusk, a few of the stars are turning on their lights.

Vega, the brightest one, is now dropping towards the west.  Can it be half

a year since I watched her April rising in the east?  Low in the southwest

Antares blinks a sad farwell to fall...

Leslie Peltier, Starlight Nights

 

International Dark Sky Association: www.darksky.org

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bruce Donzanti
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 6:42 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: [ap-gto] AP 1100 - 2 minutes unguided

 

I can go up to almost 60' without guiding.  Is it possible to get the mount to go up to 2 minutes unguided?  If yes, I am assuming it would be by getting the PE down as best as possible given all other variables are at peak performance (perfect balance, no cable drag, excellent seeing, excellent pool alignment, etc).  Or is this not possible? Note: I am guiding now with PHD2 and it works fine.  Just asking.


 

--

Brian 

 

 

 

Brian Valente


uncarollo2 <chris1011@aol.com>
 

For some reason I'm not getting some of the posts, so I did not see your opening e-mail. Many are ending up in the spam folder. Don't know why but will check.

Roland



-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Donzanti <donza2735@...>
To: main <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Jan 31, 2020 3:47 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] AP 1100 - 2 minutes unguided

yes- I mention/ask about PE correction in my opening email on the topic.  It was the modeling part I was missing.  Thanks for confirming and the additional information. 


John A. Sillasen
 

George,  are you the author of that document? It doesn't have an author credit.  I suppose part of me asking is how far can it be shared without asking permission?

Thank you, 

John A. Sillasen