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Ap900gto parking issue at end of the session

palamrinder@...
 

I am running my ap900gto through NINA (with ASCOM drivers) and every night after the session is over the mount parks on wrong position even though I set it to park at park 3 position. So when I start the session next day, it is confused about it position and few times have put telescope upside down. So I have to manually park it at 3 and go through the process of telling the mount it is at park 3 before I start the session. The good news is that it always ends in same location (attached picture). Would appreciate help with this issue.

ascom.png

park.png

Dale Ghent
 


Is your mount even slewing to the correct position in the sky at the start of your sequence in NINA? 



On Jan 19, 2023, at 19:08, palamrinder via groups.io <palamrinder@...> wrote:

I am running my ap900gto through NINA (with ASCOM drivers) and every night after the session is over the mount parks on wrong position even though I set it to park at park 3 position. So when I start the session next day, it is confused about it position and few times have put telescope upside down. So I have to manually park it at 3 and go through the process of telling the mount it is at park 3 before I start the session. The good news is that it always ends in same location (attached picture). Would appreciate help with this issue.
<ascom.png>
<park.png>
palamrinder@...
 

If I don’t manually park and tell the position to the mount it doesn’t go to right location. I ended up with telescope upside down few times and had one wire broken so don’t take any more chance without manual  adjustment. In NINA sequencer I have option selected to park. Seems like som disconnect between NINA and ASCOM in deciding where the right parking position is. 
Dale Ghent
 

On Jan 20, 2023, at 00:29, palamrinder via groups.io <palamrinder@...> wrote:

If I don’t manually park and tell the position to the mount it doesn’t go to right location. I ended up with telescope upside down few times and had one wire broken so don’t take any more chance without manual adjustment. In NINA sequencer I have option selected to park. Seems like som disconnect between NINA and ASCOM in deciding where the right parking position is.
I think your hands-on approach, pardon the pun, might be getting in the way of things.

NINA (or any app) has no advanced knowledge of what the park position of any given mount is. When the app tells the mount, via its ASCOM driver, to park, it commands just that - Park! It's up to the mount to figure out what that means and how to get there. In this case, if the mount is configured to park at position 3 and it's not landing there, the mount's notion of how its axes are oriented in relation to the sky and what it knows as the time of day is wrong. This is why I asked if the mount actually points accurately whenever you, via a sequence in NINA, tell it to slew to the target's coordinates.

First, let's make sure you have a sane ASCOM driver configuration. In the ASCOM driver's setup, flip open the Advanced area and make at least the following two items are checked:

* Keep mount time synced to PC time
* Convert SYNCs to RCALs

Second, let's make sure you have a sane NINA configuration:

* Under Options > Equipment > Telescope, ensure that "Do not Sync" is OFF. The language of this option was fixed recently to not be a double negative. We want syncs, not to block them.

* Under Options > General > Astrometry, make sure that your longitude is negative signed. A common mistake for people in the western hemisphere when they enter values by hand here is to not make their longitude a negative number, which then makes NINA think that you're in central Asia or the Indian Ocean rather than North or South America. If you imported your coordinates from the mount, it'll be correct - assuming the mount is configured with the correct lat/long which yours *appears* to be.

Third, let's review your methodologies.

* If a mount - any mount - has pointing problems (which this parking issue essentially is) then the first thing you need to do is true up the mount's notion of how its axes are oriented to the sky and time. First make sure that your computer's clock is accurate. Then, on the next night you set up, manually slew the telescope to somewhere nice in the eastern or western sky and, from NINA, do a manual plate solve using the Imaging > Plate Solve window. Ensure that the Sync slider in that window is On. This will take take an image, solve it, and send the coordinates it finds to the mount. This single action will true up your mount with its orientation with the sky, assuming its notion of time is correct.

* In your sequences, assuming you're using the Simple Sequencer, ensure you have "Slew to Target" and "Center Target" checked in the "Target Optoions" area. Ensure that "Unpark mount" is checked in the "Target Set Start Options" area. When you start the sequence, it NINA will unpark the mount (if needed) and tell the mount to slew to the coordinates you defined for the target, then go through a centering process that involves plate solves. Your mount will be updated via syncs during this process.

Unless you have cables purposefully wrapped around things (they should have free sway on the east, south, and west side of your mount) you should never need to get involved manually to point things. This assumes, that your both your location on earth and the time of day is correct.

/dale
palamrinder@...
 

Hi Dale
Thanks a lot for detailed information. I will try it. Just to confirm that I should leave the mount in the last parked position even if it is wrong one to try these steps? I just manually moved it back to position 3 in order to cover it for the day.
Brian Valente
 

If you loosened the clutches and moved it to park 3, make sure to unpark from park 3 (not last parked), and then make sure you slew to somewhere in the sky, plate solve and recal.



On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 10:17 AM palamrinder via groups.io <palamrinder=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Dale
Thanks a lot for detailed information. I will try it. Just to confirm that I should leave the mount in the last parked position even if it is wrong one to try these steps? I just manually moved it back to position 3 in order to cover it for the day.



--

palamrinder@...
 

Thanks Brian. I follow this sequence on ascom after manually parking at park 3. Park at current location - Unpark from park 3 - Park at Park 3 - Unpark from current location. I slew to my target after this and then plate solve.
Brian Valente
 

I am not sure I follow that at all, it seems like a lot of extra steps

Just to recap what you need to do if you loosened the clutches and move your mount to park 3, and assuming you are disconnected from your mount.
Choose "unpark from park 3"
Connect to mount and unpark (you will get the warning it will return to unpark from last park position)
Slew to target and plate solve

that's it. Not sure why you have those extra parks/unparks



On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 5:37 PM palamrinder via groups.io <palamrinder=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks Brian. I follow this sequence on ascom after manually parking at park 3. Park at current location - Unpark from park 3 - Park at Park 3 - Unpark from current location. I slew to my target after this and then plate solve.



--

palamrinder@...
 

Hi Dale
So I followed your instructions. The first and second item checked out. All settings were as you described. I manually moved the scope towards zenith and tried plate solving. But even though plenty of stars were visible ASTAP failed to plate solve so the backup astrometry option kicked in. It took some time for it to plate solve but right after plate solving the mount starting moving counterclockwise and I had to manually stop it to prevent scope going upside down (see second picture). 

I manually put it back in park 3 position and defined it in ASCOM. Plate solving worked flawlessly after that. Also in the sequencer I selected centering as an option. The scope this morning ended up close to Park 4 position which is different from previous nights. 
Brian Valente
 

>>>I manually moved the scope towards zenith and tried plate solving.

Just to confirm, you manually *slewed* the scope, not loosened the clutches and moved it, correct?



On Sat, Jan 21, 2023 at 1:06 PM palamrinder via groups.io <palamrinder=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi Dale
So I followed your instructions. The first and second item checked out. All settings were as you described. I manually moved the scope towards zenith and tried plate solving. But even though plenty of stars were visible ASTAP failed to plate solve so the backup astrometry option kicked in. It took some time for it to plate solve but right after plate solving the mount starting moving counterclockwise and I had to manually stop it to prevent scope going upside down (see second picture). 

I manually put it back in park 3 position and defined it in ASCOM. Plate solving worked flawlessly after that. Also in the sequencer I selected centering as an option. The scope this morning ended up close to Park 4 position which is different from previous nights. 



--

palamrinder@...
 

Yes. sorry for semantics. I slewed using ASCOM
Dale Ghent
 

On Jan 21, 2023, at 16:06, palamrinder via groups.io <palamrinder@...> wrote:

Hi Dale
So I followed your instructions. The first and second item checked out. All settings were as you described. I manually moved the scope towards zenith and tried plate solving. But even though plenty of stars were visible ASTAP failed to plate solve so the backup astrometry option kicked in. It took some time for it to plate solve but right after plate solving the mount starting moving counterclockwise and I had to manually stop it to prevent scope going upside down (see second picture).
I manually put it back in park 3 position and defined it in ASCOM. Plate solving worked flawlessly after that. Also in the sequencer I selected centering as an option. The scope this morning ended up close to Park 4 position which is different from previous nights.
I suggested plate solving in the eastern or western sky with the intent to imply that plate solving at zenith, on or near the meridian, is not necessary. Because I can't see how you've actually go about doing this, I at least wanted to be sure that you were doing the solve with the counterweights down, below the horizontal axis of the RA.

As for the initial plate solve failure, is this a common occurrence? There is a consideration here, as with your SCT, you'll want to be certain that you're using the correct star database in ASTAP. You'll want to be sure you've downloaded and installed (and set ASTAP to use) the H18 star database, as your SCT's FOV will be in the range where the smaller H17 database may be insufficient. If you are running with the H17 database, uninstall it and install the H18 one. Open up ASTAP and go to the Alignment tab to ensure it is set to either Auto or H18 for the database to use. While you're at it, ensure you've installed the current version of ASTAP itself.

The solve alone should set your mount straight provided it has accurate time and counterwieghts are down. Your earlier screenshot of your coordinates looks fine for someone in North American (N of equator, W of the prime meridian.) So something else is going on here and, since it's the park function which is completely controlled by the mount, it's something either in your settings or in your methodology that is getting things literally turned around.

When you manually drive the mount to the Park 3 position (counterweight bar straight down, scope looking at the celestial pole), you should do the following:

1. Manually drive the mount to Park 3 using the N/E/S/W buttons in the ASCOM driver's UI. Get it close, but it doesn't need to be painfully exact.

2. In the ASCOM driver's UI, hit the Expand button and set the Park Position to Current position, then press the Park button. The mount should park right there without moving anywhere.

3. Then, set the Unpark location to "Park 3" and unpark the mount. The mount should then unpark and start tracking (or not, if you have don't track on unpark turned on)

4. Reset the Park position setting to "Park 3" an the Unpark position setting to "Current Location"

5. Drive the mount around a little bit using the N/E/S/W buttons in the UI. You don't need to drive it far off the Park 3 position, just appreciably so. When you're done, press the Park button. The mount should go back to the Park 3 position and park there. If it doesn't do this and goes off in some wild direction, something is seriously weird.

For extra bonus, ensure that the RA and Dec motor cables are not swapped, and that the N-S switch on the CP3 lower right corner is not set to S ;)

/dale
palamrinder@...
 

Hi Dale. My east side have some light pollution from nearby homes and west side has some trees that's why i went closer to Zenith. But I can try something in the vicinity.

Plate solving is only an issue when mount is not calibrated (manually as I figured out) properly. If It knows it is parked right, plate solving never fails unless there are clouds or other typical issues. So I believe there is conflict happening between mount's location and what NINA calculates which causes the plate solving issue. 

Yesterday before I started the sequence I pressed the "set as park" button on NINA after setting the mount to park 3 position (see the process I follow for manually setting it to park 3). Some clouds showed up and I decided to end the sequence earlier (before meridian flip). So I pressed the park button on NINA and mount came back correctly to Park 3 position. I wonder if it would have done the same on it's own as well. I will try to check that tonight and let you know tomorrow. I'm hoping the mount will park in right location unless it loses the sync post meridian flip.

Thanks for sharing the manual setting process. Since I have to move the mount to park 3 in morning and my batteries are fully discharged so I move it manually after loosening the RA and Dec screws and in the evening follow this process before anything else.
1. Turn on camera, focuser, fw and telescope in NINA. This opens up the mount ASCOM window and automatically unparks the mount.

2. Expand the ASCOM window and select Park at current location

3. Then I select unpark from Park 3 position

4. This is followed by Park to Park 3 (mount does not move)

5. And finally unpark from current position.

This always syncs the mount and everything works flawlessly (slewing to right location, plate solving sequence etc) except for mount not ending up in Park 3 after sequence ends.

I didn't have to follow this process today as NINA correctly parked it at Park 3 last night so will see if it goes to right location tomorrow morning. 
Dale Ghent
 

The ASTAP plate solve is then failing because the RA and Dec that it is being hinted with, which is taken from what the ASCOM driver reports, is outside the search radius of ASTAP when it compares stars in the frame. So then it fails and the blind solver runs, which is an all-sky solve that will take longer because it's searching the entire sky.

So it's obvious that the ASCOM driver thinks it's pointing in different places in the sky than you really are, and I think it comes down to how you're parking and unpoarking the mount, which seems like it can be error-prone if you skip a step.

When you unpark the mount, you are essentially telling the mount that its axes are oriented in the configuration that defines that park position. So if your mount stops working during the night due to drained batteries, then you unclutch the axes and manually move it to the Park 3 position, the mount will move like a drunken sailor if you then power things back on and forget to tell the mount to unpark from Park 3.

The Set As Park button in NINA may be exacerbating this issue and I would advise against using it if you really have no need to. What that does is tell the ASCOM driver: "Whatever position you think you're at now, this is your new park position." If the mount's notion of its orientation is already messed up, or gets messed up later, this can further that problem.

Since it *appears* that you're imaging from the comfortable trappings of a residential backyard, I would suggest that you get a good 12VDC power supply and use that to juice your setup. After all, it's better to use mains power if it's available instead of battery and you'll avoid the battery draining out in the night, especially in the cold season where it'll conk out earlier than you're expecting. This way you don't subject the gear to low voltages and your sequence can properly end and park your mount at the desired position for you. It's just better. Keep the battery for a power outage or if you take your rig to a dark site.

On Jan 22, 2023, at 22:11, palamrinder via groups.io <palamrinder@...> wrote:

Hi Dale. My east side have some light pollution from nearby homes and west side has some trees that's why i went closer to Zenith. But I can try something in the vicinity.

Plate solving is only an issue when mount is not calibrated (manually as I figured out) properly. If It knows it is parked right, plate solving never fails unless there are clouds or other typical issues. So I believe there is conflict happening between mount's location and what NINA calculates which causes the plate solving issue.

Yesterday before I started the sequence I pressed the "set as park" button on NINA after setting the mount to park 3 position (see the process I follow for manually setting it to park 3). Some clouds showed up and I decided to end the sequence earlier (before meridian flip). So I pressed the park button on NINA and mount came back correctly to Park 3 position. I wonder if it would have done the same on it's own as well. I will try to check that tonight and let you know tomorrow. I'm hoping the mount will park in right location unless it loses the sync post meridian flip.

Thanks for sharing the manual setting process. Since I have to move the mount to park 3 in morning and my batteries are fully discharged so I move it manually after loosening the RA and Dec screws and in the evening follow this process before anything else.
1. Turn on camera, focuser, fw and telescope in NINA. This opens up the mount ASCOM window and automatically unparks the mount.

2. Expand the ASCOM window and select Park at current location

3. Then I select unpark from Park 3 position

4. This is followed by Park to Park 3 (mount does not move)

5. And finally unpark from current position.

This always syncs the mount and everything works flawlessly (slewing to right location, plate solving sequence etc) except for mount not ending up in Park 3 after sequence ends.

I didn't have to follow this process today as NINA correctly parked it at Park 3 last night so will see if it goes to right location tomorrow morning.

palamrinder@...
 

Hi Dale
Yes I image from my backyard and at some point might transition to main power. Just to clarify my sessions end well before batteries die due to trees and other obstructions. So I don't believe the battery discharge is causing this issue. I did find voltage issue when I got the mount as I was plugging the PC and mount to same battery but since then I've separate battery for mount (along with camera cooler plugged in) and it hardly uses 50% over the night. The other battery running the PC along with camera, EAF, FW and dew heater is usually the one drained out in morning.

So the night before last the mount correctly parked to park 3 location so for the session last night I didn't have to do any manual intervention but this morning it still ended up in the same wrong location. There is consistency in the location though so I wonder if the mount is loosing sync slowly over night? But I also don't see images shifting either. I wonder if the mount gets confused once it encounters camera obstacles and can't plate solve before parking? The funny thing is mount gets oriented properly with my routine and doesn't give me issues in plate solving or slewing and tracking on right target. It seems to only get confused at the end of the sequence. What can cause latent sync issues in the mount? Is there a preferred way to orient it if I loosen the dec and ra screws to reposition it to right park position? The one I describe above seems to orient it right but still doesn't solve the end of session parking issue.

As for mount unparking, it happens automatically as soon as I select the power on for mount in NINA and the mount doesn't move on its own. Is there a way to do that manually in ASCOM? I couldn't see ASCOM icon on my PC last night. I wonder if it is only possible with APCC?

I'm ok with not touching the set as park in NINA.
Brian Valente
 

>>>unparking, it happens automatically as soon as I select the power on for mount in NINA and the mount doesn't move on its own. Is there a way to do that manually in ASCOM? 

What is it that you want to do manually? Unpark the mount? If so you can unpar/park from ascom here:

image.png


Or you can unpark/park in APCC via the Park tab or by double-clicking the status bar: https://youtu.be/7r2qujy8BkM?t=595
image.png


>>>I couldn't see ASCOM icon on my PC last night. I wonder if it is only possible with APCC?
Assuming you are using the latest APCC and ASCOM, you can find the ASCOM app (icon) here: https://youtu.be/7r2qujy8BkM?t=358


On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 10:40 AM palamrinder via groups.io <palamrinder=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Dale
Yes I image from my backyard and at some point might transition to main power. Just to clarify my sessions end well before batteries die due to trees and other obstructions. So I don't believe the battery discharge is causing this issue. I did find voltage issue when I got the mount as I was plugging the PC and mount to same battery but since then I've separate battery for mount (along with camera cooler plugged in) and it hardly uses 50% over the night. The other battery running the PC along with camera, EAF, FW and dew heater is usually the one drained out in morning.

So the night before last the mount correctly parked to park 3 location so for the session last night I didn't have to do any manual intervention but this morning it still ended up in the same wrong location. There is consistency in the location though so I wonder if the mount is loosing sync slowly over night? But I also don't see images shifting either. I wonder if the mount gets confused once it encounters camera obstacles and can't plate solve before parking? The funny thing is mount gets oriented properly with my routine and doesn't give me issues in plate solving or slewing and tracking on right target. It seems to only get confused at the end of the sequence. What can cause latent sync issues in the mount? Is there a preferred way to orient it if I loosen the dec and ra screws to reposition it to right park position? The one I describe above seems to orient it right but still doesn't solve the end of session parking issue.

As for mount unparking, it happens automatically as soon as I select the power on for mount in NINA and the mount doesn't move on its own. Is there a way to do that manually in ASCOM? I couldn't see ASCOM icon on my PC last night. I wonder if it is only possible with APCC?

I'm ok with not touching the set as park in NINA.



--

palamrinder@...
 

Hi Brian
When I connect/turn on the telescope in NINA it opens up the ASCOM window you showed but the mount is automatically unparks and turns on sidreal tracking. I am trying to find a way to prevent that so I can tell mount where to unpark from.
Brian Valente
 

>>>When I connect/turn on the telescope in NINA it opens up the ASCOM window you showed but the mount is automatically unparks and turns on sidreal tracking. I am trying to find a way to prevent that so I can tell mount where to unpark from.

You are using APCC, correct?

You can set Unpark from in the Park tab of APCC - however be careful here and make sure if you unpark from something other than Last Parked you have confirmed you are in that park position. 

image.png


On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 5:55 PM palamrinder via groups.io <palamrinder=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Brian
When I connect/turn on the telescope in NINA it opens up the ASCOM window you showed but the mount is automatically unparks and turns on sidreal tracking. I am trying to find a way to prevent that so I can tell mount where to unpark from.



--

Roland Christen
 

For a properly set up permanent mount, it is not a good idea for the user to tell the mount to unpark from some position - it is too easy to lie to the mount and cause it to point wrong. It is best to always let the mount determine where to unpark - the mount electronics knows exactly where it is at any time, power or no power. This applies to any permanent setup where the mount's clutches have not been loosened and the axes have not been moved manually via the clutches.

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: palamrinder via groups.io <palamrinder@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Jan 23, 2023 7:55 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Ap900gto parking issue at end of the session

Hi Brian
When I connect/turn on the telescope in NINA it opens up the ASCOM window you showed but the mount is automatically unparks and turns on sidreal tracking. I am trying to find a way to prevent that so I can tell mount where to unpark from.

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics
palamrinder@...
 

Thanks Roland. Dale, Brian I think I found the issue. I woke up at 2:30 AM today and found my PC was shutdown. This means the batter in which the PC is connected discharges before the mount so it never gets the command to park and keeps tracking until it realizes it’s pointing below horizon and stops. I took the picture of mount when PC went offline through my security camera and then another one in the morning. Going to run an extensive cable to power the PC tonight. I believe this should fix the problem. I’ll let you know if it still doesn’t work out. Thanks a lot for your help. Appreciate it. 

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