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Hardware needs for APCC #APCC
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midnightsnacks
Hello,
I am hoping for guidance from some fellow Astro lovers. I recently acquired a used mach1 with CP4 control and keypad. I would like to start my APCC journey but first, require the appropriate hardware. I am looking for input on what hardware setup I should use. I am looking for input on what other software I should incorporate. I am a mac user and haven't so much as looked at windows in 20 years. I currently do remote setup about 200 yards from my house. I usually sit in an auxiliary building and control via wifi. It gets very cold where I live. I do have ethernet running from my house to the building. I could remote from the comforts of home, this is likely something I will tackle in the future. Long term, I plan to build a small observatory. My equipment is as follows. Zwo cameras 183 mc-pro & 6200mm-pro. Zwo EAF. Zwo EFW. Zwo 120mm min guide camera. 2 x dew heater straps powered through DC output of Asiair+ Nikon Z6ii I have an iPad mini and M1 Macbook. Any words of wisdom to get the most out of my mount would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance, Kevin. |
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Hi Kevin you might consider a small mini PC like a Beelink, Intel NUC etc. at the telescope that runs your imaging sessions You can use windows remote desktop to access it (yes, you can access it even with your Mac and iPad via the microsoft RD apps) for imaging automation you might consider NINA or sequence generator pro. Many DSLR/mirrorless users start with APT as software automation (astro photography tool, i think that's what it stands for) Brian On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 9:19 AM midnightsnacks <kevin.333.wood@...> wrote: Hello, --
Brian Brian Valente astro portfolio https://www.brianvalentephotography.com/astrophotography/ portfolio brianvalentephotography.com |
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PS I should mention the computing requirements for APCC and imaging are fairly basic. You don't need a supercharged PC, tons of ram, or even a GPU for APCC and image acquisition Now image processing, that's a different ball of wax ;)
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Brian Brian Valente astro portfolio https://www.brianvalentephotography.com/astrophotography/ portfolio brianvalentephotography.com |
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midnightsnacks
Hi Brian,
Thank you for the information, it helps a lot. I am happy to hear I can use my Ipad as a remote desktop, It's nice to be able to control the rig inside out from the cold. The NUC I have been looking at is the mele quieter3q, where I'm a little stuck is how to control and power the dew heaters from a NUC or what the best practice to do so is. I would also like to be able to do things like updating Pempro, which I assume I can do from the NUC but wanted to double-check. Currently set up is, AA+ outputs 1. USB 3.0 -> ZWO camera 2. USB 2.0 -> EAF 3. USB 2.0-> CP4 4. 2 x 12 V DC -> 2x dew heater ZWO Camera outputs 1.USB 2.0 -> Guide Camera 2. USB 2.0 -> EWF The camera and AA+ each have a dedicated 12 V power supply. Currently, everything rides on the OTA. I can easily pop that off the mount, then pop the mount off the eagle pier. So I can move the setup in 3 trips, It would be nice to keep it so. I don't often use the Nikon Mirrorless, so that would be my least concern. I have a good setup for processing. My acquisition needs updating, the air was fine for introducing me to this world, but I have begun to feel how limiting it can be. All the best, Kevin |
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Hi Kevin if you like the AA+ and want to create something kind of similar but more capable in the Windows world, i would pair the NUC with something like the pegasus astro powerbox ultimate. That gives you all the ports, power, dew controllers, and control over them. fantastic combo on the mele quieter3q, i'm personally not a huge fan of that one, although i've seen it make the rounds on youtube, etc. I like Beelink which has fans, but not sure of your requirements there. Black Friday has tons of great deals on mini computers right now, esp. Beelink. On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 10:35 AM midnightsnacks <kevin.333.wood@...> wrote: Hi Brian, --
Brian Brian Valente astro portfolio https://www.brianvalentephotography.com/astrophotography/ portfolio brianvalentephotography.com |
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Bill Long
I run my system on the MeLE Quieter 3C. Works wonderfully. Very portable device as well with a USB C power option. It runs Windows 11 Pro, and all of my Astro programs work without issue on it.
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Valente <bvalente@...>
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2022 11:43 AM To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Hardware needs for APCC Hi Kevin
if you like the AA+ and want to create something kind of similar but more capable in the Windows world, i would pair the NUC with something like the pegasus astro powerbox ultimate. That gives you all the ports, power, dew controllers, and control over
them. fantastic combo
on the mele quieter3q, i'm personally not a huge fan of that one, although i've seen it make the rounds on youtube, etc.
I like Beelink which has fans, but not sure of your requirements there. Black Friday has tons of great deals on mini computers right now, esp. Beelink.
On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 10:35 AM midnightsnacks <kevin.333.wood@...> wrote:
Hi Brian, Brian
Brian Valente
astro portfolio https://www.brianvalentephotography.com/astrophotography/
portfolio
brianvalentephotography.com
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THanks BIll I have no direct experience with that, i should have qualified. But i have run similarly spec'd mini PCs for planetary, and they tend to bottleneck for that application On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 11:47 AM Bill Long <bill@...> wrote:
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Brian Brian Valente astro portfolio https://www.brianvalentephotography.com/astrophotography/ portfolio brianvalentephotography.com |
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Bill Long
For Astro data I installed a Samsung 1TB nVME SSD drive into the open m2 port it comes with. Performance has been great.
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Valente <bvalente@...>
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2022 11:50 AM To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Hardware needs for APCC THanks BIll
I have no direct experience with that, i should have qualified. But i have run similarly spec'd mini PCs for planetary, and they tend to bottleneck for that application
On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 11:47 AM Bill Long <bill@...> wrote:
Brian
Brian Valente
astro portfolio https://www.brianvalentephotography.com/astrophotography/
portfolio
brianvalentephotography.com
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There is a thread on CN right now about this same topic. Lots of people use the MeLe. However, I have to say I just purchased a Dell Latitude refurb laptop with a fairly fast processor, 14" screen, 512 GB SSD, 16G of ram, Windows 10 pro and all sorts of ports for my 88 year old mom for $256 delivered to her door. They usually have coupons and now the coupons are 35% and 38% off. I really don't think you can beat that for cost effectiveness. Yes, the NUC is nice, but you need another way to get to it, like RDP and that needs another device and a screen, so I fail to see the advantage of a NUC over a cheap new laptop. Plug in the laptop in the field and rdp into it. I think you need to set up a local hotspot with it or take a small router out in the field along with a dongle for cell service as needed. Certainly my mom's new dell will exceed the capacity of the NUC.
I now run two tandem rigs, one for the field and one for the observatory. I have never run into any problems with Dell refurbs and have purchased dozens of them for my company over the years. So, I have a lot of experience with them. I never buy new. |
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i'm a huge fan of refurb! But looking at the deals on new mini PCs like this one. Intel i5, 16gb ram, 500gb solid state storage, win 11 pro - totally worth it to me. + current $50 off is around $300 On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 11:57 AM Emilio J. Robau, P.E. <ejr@...> wrote: There is a thread on CN right now about this same topic. Lots of people use the MeLe. However, I have to say I just purchased a Dell Latitude refurb laptop with a fairly fast processor, 14" screen, 512 GB SSD, 16G of ram, Windows 10 pro and all sorts of ports for my 88 year old mom for $256 delivered to her door. They usually have coupons and now the coupons are 35% and 38% off. I really don't think you can beat that for cost effectiveness. Yes, the NUC is nice, but you need another way to get to it, like RDP and that needs another device and a screen, so I fail to see the advantage of a NUC over a cheap new laptop. Plug in the laptop in the field and rdp into it. I think you need to set up a local hotspot with it or take a small router out in the field along with a dongle for cell service as needed. Certainly my mom's new dell will exceed the capacity of the NUC. --
Brian Brian Valente astro portfolio https://www.brianvalentephotography.com/astrophotography/ portfolio brianvalentephotography.com |
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I agree it is enticing. I also like the novelty of just having a box on the mount run the show. However, you still have to power something else for the night to control it. I have been seriously thinking of one for the observatory to reduce clutter. For me this is the best option for the observatory as long as it can run two instances of NINA and associated connections for both scopes and camera combinations. In the field, which I am just transitioning to since obtaining my new 1100, a laptop is best for me. This year I plan to go out into the everglades for some dark sky observing. Looking forward to meet Lynwood out there with his new Stellarvue. I am anxious to see the difference between light pollution imaging and dark sky imaging.
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Hi Kevin, my 5c as a Mac user. I ended up getting an industrial win pc for the observatory and connecting through Chrome Remote Desktop from my Mac and iPad. Chrome has shown to be simple and reliable, but I do keep TeamViewer as a backup. I second the Pegasus Ultimate Powerbox suggestion, a simple and reliable way to tame power and data connections if you have observatory plans I also suggest checking out Voyager. Similar to Nina, it’s a wonderful automation tool to bring everything together. |
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Linwood Ferguson
On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 03:33 PM, Emilio J. Robau, P.E. wrote:
I also like the novelty of just having a box on the mount run the show. However, you still have to power something else for the night to control it.A lot depends on what you need to do. I tend to set up, hit go, and let it run until morning then just do flats. I take a laptop with me to the dark site, but most of what I do (like polar alignment, and frequently checking in to makes sure all is well) I just do with my cell phone and RDP. If I have to do a lot of typing I get out a chair and the laptop, as being over 30 I find it easier to type on a keyboard than on a cell phone. But while I take a charger with me (that I could plug to the car's 110v) I have never actually had to charge the laptop. I spend cumulatively maybe 30 minutes on it between evening and morning; if that. Not this would be different camped for days of course, but for a night out at a dark site, all I use in terms of power supplies is a 12v LiFePO4 battery for the mount, nuc, and stuff on the tripod. I want to see the new scope out there as well.... just need clear skies and I need to get my photon cage tuned up. But I've never regretted switching from a laptop to a NUC, did it a couple years ago, never looked back. Linwood |
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Arvind
In the obs, I have NINA on a desktop with a monitor/keyboard/mouse, and use Pocket Powerbox Advance Gen2 for power & dew (I don't really need the dew heater inside the obs in my case, but it's there if I end up needing it). I don't see the allure for mini pc in an obs except for space & power saving -- personally not a criteria for me inside the obs. As much as I want to go from ASIAIR to NINA for portable use (I use NINA regularly in my permanent setup -- as mentioned in my prev sentence), (a) the clutter of more cables and devices instead of just the AIR, and (b) more importantly the non-predictability of being able to login to the PC, has been keeping me away. Let me elaborate on 'b': For my portable use I'm trying to get a workflow that does not require a monitor attached. I have no issues with my PC in my obs -- it has a monitor -- and I can reliably get in over TeamView/AnyDesk/remote desktop etc. For portable use though, the remote clients seem to work X nights, but then out of nowhere one night they wouldn't.. until I plug in a $20 tiny monitor I have just for this purpose and then restart and then everything is ok after that. I have all kinds of updates disabled in the portable setup to improve availability of the overall system as well. Question for those that setup/teardown each time.. especially remotely: do you carry a portable monitor just in case? Or do you have a setup that reliably works no matter what, without a monitor? On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 1:20 PM ap@... <ap@...> wrote: On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 03:33 PM, Emilio J. Robau, P.E. wrote: |
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Greg McCall
Hi, re iPad, I suggest also using a pen to click on small boxes. Re Dew, power and USB hub, I suggest the celestron 4x dew controller. It uses dew point to determine correct temperature and individual sensor to measure temperature under each dew strap. USB3 hub and power control On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 at 5:35 am, midnightsnacks <kevin.333.wood@...> wrote: Hi Brian, |
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Bill Long
Observatory use is going to vary from use case to use case, if the observatory is a 12-hour flight away - the robustness of the control system dramatically increases over a backyard setup. Not to mention the reliability of the control software from an uptime,
memory management, and stability perspective as well.
In terms of the
Mini PC I am using, it gives me flexibility to use it powered via AC or powered via the
battery box I use using USB-C in a remote configuration. Same PC, no need to have multiple devices for different use cases. It is slightly larger than a deck of cards, runs Windows 11 Pro, has plenty of memory, and has a free M2 port on it for a nice fast
SSD (1TB in my case). Plenty of space for extended imaging needs. My current project, which has been going for about a week, currently has 74GB of data (lights, calibration, flats) so even with the big IMX455 bin1 files, this thing covers it easily.
For me, having a system that runs Windows 11 Pro was important. Microsoft Remote Desktop services is very robust and reliable, and without going to deep into that -- is used widely at the Enterprise level for management of systems and data far more valuable
than my pretty pictures. 🙂 I connect over my local WiFi to the PC via Windows Remote Desktop, and have full control of the system with no problems. In a remote scenario, one would have a few options (and should have a plan a and plan b). In
my case, plan A is for the PC to automatically connect to my cell phone hotspot, which allows me to use the Remote Desktop Mobile client to connect. I have used this successfully in Eastern WA to image with no issues. Plan B Is to take with me a small, easily
powered WiFi Hotpot which my phone and PC can connect to. For those that do not want to use a phone, just use a tablet instead. Bonus for either is that you have entertainment on hand. The battery box I linked earlier has plenty of ports free to provide power
for your phone or tablet (or a laptop if needed). Plan C, is my Surface Pro Laptop with car charger. I have an ethernet adapter for that with a crossover cable that allows for completely worst case scenario logon to the Mini PC -- although this has never been
needed.
One last thing about my setup that some folks may overlook, is that Voyager has a Web Dashboard with all the control options needed. So once I am up and running on the Mini PC, I can just swap over to the Web UI via my phone browser and monitor the system
rather easily.
On the Quiter MiniPC I have run APCC Pro, APv2 Driver, Voyager, Voyager FITS Viewer, PHD2 (in some cases), NINA (for camera control during modeling in APPM), CDC, Pegasus Unity, MGBox V2 App, all at the same time - and the system is barely taxed at all
- running at about 30% CPU and less than 50% memory. This usage includes an active full-screen (4k) Remote Desktop connection to the system.
In terms of cabling, the Mini PC has one USB cable running to it, and one ethernet cable running to the mount, and of course its power cable. Thats it. Everything is managed by the through mount cabling of the Mach 2 (or my 1100 if I am using that) up
to the Ultimate Powerbox V2. It is a very clean setup.
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Arvind <base16@...>
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2022 3:32 PM To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Hardware needs for APCC In the obs, I have NINA on a desktop with a monitor/keyboard/mouse, and use Pocket Powerbox Advance Gen2 for power & dew (I don't really need the dew heater inside the obs in my case, but it's there if I end up needing it). I don't see the allure
for mini pc in an obs except for space & power saving -- personally not a criteria for me inside the obs.
As much as I want to go from ASIAIR to NINA for portable use (I use NINA regularly in my permanent setup -- as mentioned in my prev sentence), (a) the clutter of more cables and devices instead of just the AIR, and (b) more importantly the non-predictability
of being able to login to the PC, has been keeping me away.
Let me elaborate on 'b': For my portable use I'm trying to get a workflow that does not require a monitor attached. I have no issues with my PC in my obs -- it has a monitor -- and I can reliably get in over TeamView/AnyDesk/remote desktop etc. For portable
use though, the remote clients seem to work X nights, but then out of nowhere one night they wouldn't.. until I plug in a $20 tiny monitor I have just for this purpose and then restart and then everything is ok after that. I have all kinds of updates disabled
in the portable setup to improve availability of the overall system as well.
Question for those that setup/teardown each time.. especially remotely: do you carry a portable monitor just in case? Or do you have a setup that reliably works no matter what, without a monitor?
On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 1:20 PM ap@... <ap@...> wrote:
On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 03:33 PM, Emilio J. Robau, P.E. wrote: |
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Linwood Ferguson
On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 06:32 PM, Arvind wrote:
Question for those that setup/teardown each time.. especially remotely: do you carry a portable monitor just in case? Or do you have a setup that reliably works no matter what, without a monitor?I do, whether at home or remotely, and I have never had an issue. I use RDP. RDP operates a bit differently from most of the remote viewers, it creates a virtual monitor itself, it is not attempting to mirror the real one. I think most people who have trouble and find they need a fake HDMI device or some such either have a misconfigured network, or are using one of the other tools. Emphasis on "think", but I've never needed to intervene. You do need to make sure that the bios is set to not stop during boot for most errors, like not seeing a keyboard, or really any thing you can turn off. Not in the telescope world, but I have had headless systems I could not remote into because bios never finished booting, waiting for you to hit some key to continue. Having a good, configurable bios is one reason I paid more for a real Intel NUC instead of a china knockoff. Many of those have exceptionally limited bios'. I had one once, from "mini forums", that would only boot on power up if you pushed the power button, you could not set it to auto-start. It's home was to be physically inside a player piano, so that wasn't going to fly. No options related in the bios. Had to send it back. Linwood |
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Bill Long
One more thing about Windows Remote Desktop -- you need to ensure remote connections are allowed:
 From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of ap@... <ap@...>
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2022 7:07 PM To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Hardware needs for APCC On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 06:32 PM, Arvind wrote:
Question for those that setup/teardown each time.. especially remotely: do you carry a portable monitor just in case? Or do you have a setup that reliably works no matter what, without a monitor?I do, whether at home or remotely, and I have never had an issue. I use RDP. RDP operates a bit differently from most of the remote viewers, it creates a virtual monitor itself, it is not attempting to mirror the real one. I think most people who have trouble and find they need a fake HDMI device or some such either have a misconfigured network, or are using one of the other tools. Emphasis on "think", but I've never needed to intervene. You do need to make sure that the bios is set to not stop during boot for most errors, like not seeing a keyboard, or really any thing you can turn off. Not in the telescope world, but I have had headless systems I could not remote into because bios never finished booting, waiting for you to hit some key to continue. Having a good, configurable bios is one reason I paid more for a real Intel NUC instead of a china knockoff. Many of those have exceptionally limited bios'. I had one once, from "mini forums", that would only boot on power up if you pushed the power button, you could not set it to auto-start. It's home was to be physically inside a player piano, so that wasn't going to fly. No options related in the bios. Had to send it back. Linwood |
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Jeffc
I recently picked a BeeLink U59.
For me 12v source was key. I didn’t want to fiddle with an inverter as I run mostly on a 12v supply. https://a.co/4G0BRzm I also use : - a Pegasus Ultimate Power Box v2 for power distribution , focus motor control, environment sensor, dew heater control, and USB hub. - a small usb powered WiFi router The three items above sit on top of the OTA. The other device I have is an Astromi.ch MGBoxV2 for GPS and environment sensor. I’ve been using Mac laptops running Remote Desktop (to access the windows box) for quite a while now. Works great. I sit inside the house. And when in the field, there’s no wires to trip over. |
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All right. I am thinking of breaking down and getting a NUC for the field unit. Sitting in the vehicle while remoting into the mount with my laptop is sounding pretty good. It also provides for an emergency backup scenario with all the software and mount scopes and stuff installed and ready to depoly on either the observatory or field units. There have been a couple of times lately as I dropped my laptop that gave me some big scares that would not be as scary. If I had a backup unit on hand it may relieve some anxiety.
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