Date
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Locked Our blinding blaring world
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Well, Astronuts, I have to cut off this thread along with the companion thread with subject, "The other side of the story". We've begun to receive complaints that the discussion has veered away from astronomy and enjoying the night skies. Thank you for the lively conversation. No further posts on these 2 threads will be approved.
Karen AP -- Karen Christen Astro-Physics |
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On 6/16/2022 11:08 AM, Roland Christen via groups.io wrote:
At the end of the day when everyone goes home, the power demand drops to a small fraction, but the local nuclear plant is still squirting the current into the lines (they cannot run reduced or no load) so the power is redirected to lights all over the county, including farmfields with mercury vapor lamps. Here in Virginia, Dominion Energy has a pumped storage station: <https://www.dominionenergy.com/projects-and-facilities/hydroelectric-power-facilities-and-projects/bath-county-pumped-storage-station> At night, power from a nuclear station runs the turbines backward to pump water from a lower reservoir to an upper reservoir. During the day, water flows from the upper reservoir to spin turbines and generate electricity. Not as efficient as primary power generation (and impossible in flat Illinois), but at least it's not lighting up farm fields. And boy, is the sky dark in Bath County, Virginia! Been there, looked up. :-) --- Mike |
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Roland Christen
A few fun facts about electric car energy useage:
Marj and I commute to work between 18 and 20 miles total every day. We drive a Chevy Volt that uses about 4 kwhrs for that distance. We plug it in every night and it costs us about 48 cents to go that distance. We charge at 8 amps, 110 volts overnight (880 watts) for a few hours and it's full and ready to go next morning. Overnight rates can be very low or even minus if you set up a special useage plan with Com Ed (we don't at this point). Most of our local electric power comes from the nearby nuclear plant and from wind power in Northern Illinois and Iowa.
Land usage for solar panels versus biofuels: Ethanol yields 462 gallons per acre from 165 bushels of corn. An acre of sugar cane can produce approximate 35 ton yield or about 560 gallons of ethanol. Here in Wisconsin there is a 20 megawatt solar farm on 140 acres which yields approximately 700 kwhrs per day per acre, enough to provide propulsion to 175 Chevy volts to go 20 miles each day. The 462 gallons produced by corn on that same acre occurs just once per year, so it would amount to 1.28 gallons per day. At 20 mpg and 20 miles of commute, this same acre of corn would power 1.28 Chevy Volts each day.
Most people don't drive more than 30 miles per day per
person, so it really won't tax our electric distribution system for the
majority of users. Commercial, agricultural and industrial needs of
course are different, but even here some electric propulsion can result
in cost savings. For the average daily commuter the amount of electric use would amount to less than what a toaster oven consumes.
During the day our Astro-Physics plant is connected to Com Ed thru an 800 amp 3 phase power line. We use a lot of electricity during manufacturing, running all the CNC machines and other plant equipment. At the end of the day when everyone goes home, the power demand drops to a small fraction, but the local nuclear plant is still squirting the current into the lines (they cannot run reduced or no load), so the power is redirected to lights all over the county, including farm fields with mercury vapor lamps. That wasted power could be redirected to charge electric transportation. All it takes is for us to develop a smart grid that can redirect energy to were it is needed. You can already set your electric vehicle to charge at off-peak hours automatically to take advantage of lower rates. We need to do that nationally. Then there would be no need to light up the farm fields in the rural areas here in the Midwest.
Rolando
-----Original Message-----
From: M Hambrick <mhambrick563@...> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io Sent: Wed, Jun 15, 2022 9:56 pm Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Our blinding blaring world As bad as the light pollution is, the images that we as amateurs can produce today compared to just a few decades ago when light pollution was supposedly much lower is absolutely amazing. If you have some old Astronomy or Sky & Telescope magazines around from the mid-1980's, take a look at the images in the reader photos sections and compare them to what you see today on this forum. There is no comparison. The images posted (by others, not me) on this forum are even better than anything that came from the professional observatories back then.
Maybe another opportunity to reduce light pollution will present itself as a result of the push to go to electric cars. There is no way the power grid can support the sudden spike in electricity consumption every night when millions of electric car owners get home from work and plug their car into the charger overnight. One way that we astronomers may be able to take advantage of this is to propose to the local governments that they could save electricity by reducing the nighttime street lighting. In reality, this would not offset the car charger use, but it would give the politicians a chance to say that they are doing something about it. Mike Mike -- Roland Christen Astro-Physics |
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As bad as the light pollution is, the images that we as amateurs can produce today compared to just a few decades ago when light pollution was supposedly much lower is absolutely amazing. If you have some old Astronomy or Sky & Telescope magazines around from the mid-1980's, take a look at the images in the reader photos sections and compare them to what you see today on this forum. There is no comparison. The images posted (by others, not me) on this forum are even better than anything that came from the professional observatories back then.
Maybe another opportunity to reduce light pollution will present itself as a result of the push to go to electric cars. There is no way the power grid can support the sudden spike in electricity consumption every night when millions of electric car owners get home from work and plug their car into the charger overnight. One way that we astronomers may be able to take advantage of this is to propose to the local governments that they could save electricity by reducing the nighttime street lighting. In reality, this would not offset the car charger use, but it would give the politicians a chance to say that they are doing something about it. Mike Mike |
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Roland Christen
Hurray for Pittsburgh! Great city for sure.
Rolando
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim H <jamesnhead@...> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io Sent: Wed, Jun 15, 2022 9:18 pm Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Our blinding blaring world Not sure if this is appropriate for this group but good to know we can make a difference:
Dark-sky metropolis?
While it is easier to enact changes in
smaller communities, important work
is happening in major cities, too. In
September 2021, Pittsburgh, U.S.,
adopted a dark-sky lighting ordinance
that will replace 35,000 streetlights
with IDA-compliant fixtures and
install around 8,000 new ones. This
is thanks to the work of IDA advocate
Diane Turnshek. She tirelessly pursued conversations with politicians
and city officials and helped draft the
ordinance, proving that one passionate person can make a significant
difference in the fight against light
pollution.
-- Roland Christen Astro-Physics |
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Jim H
Not sure if this is appropriate for this group but good to know we can make a difference: Dark-sky metropolis? While it is easier to enact changes in smaller communities, important work is happening in major cities, too. In September 2021, Pittsburgh, U.S., adopted a dark-sky lighting ordinance that will replace 35,000 streetlights with IDA-compliant fixtures and install around 8,000 new ones. This is thanks to the work of IDA advocate Diane Turnshek. She tirelessly pursued conversations with politicians and city officials and helped draft the ordinance, proving that one passionate person can make a significant difference in the fight against light pollution.
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Roland Christen
If we miss an incoming asteroid because there is so much other crap floating around out there, then all will be moot.
Rolando
-----Original Message-----
From: ap@... <ap@...> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io Sent: Wed, Jun 15, 2022 12:00 pm Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Our blinding blaring world On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 12:33 PM, thefamily90 Phillips wrote:
Well, my suggestion might not work. I can understand that. But throwing insults definitely won’t work I can assure you of that.I doubt he would consider this an insult: Someone needs to figure out how to make it a part of the legacy he desires. I doubt he really needs or even wants more money, he is building a legacy. If you can make him think that improving dark skies is an important part of that, he could be a real ally in terrestrial light pollution. Even better if he can somehow leverage his energy sectors to do it (AI driven streetlights maybe, only on when someone is in the area). I doubt you will ever get him to change his mind on starlink as brining internet to the 3rd world is a big part of his identity. The problem is that astronomers are no one favorite group to protect, we are not impoverished, downtrodden (other than by lights), neglected, discriminated against or endangered. Figure out how to justify a Nobel Peace Prize for solving light pollution and you will have more than one billionaire competing to get it done. Linwood -- Roland Christen Astro-Physics |
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Linwood Ferguson
On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 12:33 PM, thefamily90 Phillips wrote:
Well, my suggestion might not work. I can understand that. But throwing insults definitely won’t work I can assure you of that.I doubt he would consider this an insult: Someone needs to figure out how to make it a part of the legacy he desires. I doubt he really needs or even wants more money, he is building a legacy. If you can make him think that improving dark skies is an important part of that, he could be a real ally in terrestrial light pollution. Even better if he can somehow leverage his energy sectors to do it (AI driven streetlights maybe, only on when someone is in the area). I doubt you will ever get him to change his mind on starlink as brining internet to the 3rd world is a big part of his identity. The problem is that astronomers are no one favorite group to protect, we are not impoverished, downtrodden (other than by lights), neglected, discriminated against or endangered. Figure out how to justify a Nobel Peace Prize for solving light pollution and you will have more than one billionaire competing to get it done. Linwood |
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turkeybuzzard75
On Jun 15, 2022, at 12:33, thefamily90 Phillips <thefamily90@...> wrote:
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thefamily90 Phillips
Well, my suggestion might not work. I can understand that. But throwing insults definitely won’t work I can assure you of that.
Jim
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Joe Zeglinski <J.Zeglinski@...>
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 12:18:51 PM To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Our blinding blaring world Unfortunately,
Showing Elon Musk the twinkle of stars, he would only see shimmering bright dollar signs.
Joe
From: thefamily90 Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 11:58 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Our blinding blaring world
The way to work on musk is to invite him to a Dark Sky star party and let him see what a true non-polluted sky looks like. That’s how you change someone’s mind.
Jim P
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Joe Zeglinski
Unfortunately,
Showing Elon Musk the twinkle of stars, he
would only see shimmering bright dollar signs.
Joe
From: thefamily90 Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 11:58 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Our blinding blaring world The way to work on musk is to invite him to a Dark Sky star party
and let him see what a true non-polluted sky looks like. That’s how you change
someone’s mind.
Jim P |
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thefamily90 Phillips
The way to work on musk is to invite him to a Dark Sky star party and let him see what a true non-polluted sky looks like. That’s how you change someone’s mind.
Jim P
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Roland Christen via groups.io <chris1011@...>
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 11:42:55 AM To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Our blinding blaring world Elon Musk’s increasing attempts to ruin it for every serious observer, over the entire planet. Speaking of Elon, did everyone see yesterday's APOD? https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap220614.html
Last night I was showing someone how to image with a scope and astrocamera. He was looking up at the sky and at one point said "hey look, a satellite!". All I could think was GRRRRRR.
Rolando
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Zeglinski <J.Zeglinski@...> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io Sent: Wed, Jun 15, 2022 10:03 am Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Our blinding blaring world Fernando,
Just to be clear – pun intended – you are saying ... You wouldn’t do any deep sky VIEWING from your downtown area? How about deep sky imaging using decent Narrow Band filters?
I do that, but always substitute for the standard Luminance clear filter with a Hutech IDAS- P2, for Monochrome CCD’s, preserving the SII line, (which the -D2 version for DSLR/One-shot blocks out). That effectively blocks out city
light pollution sources on its own, in tri-colour imaging. Even the best expensive ones pay for themselves in no time, at the cost of gas to drive to a dark site.
I image only from within a major metropolitan city, (population 6.3 million), with my AP-1200/RC-14.5 often pointed only about 20 degrees DIRECTLY above a row of
High Pressure Sodium vapour lamp towers, high up on a nearby elevated highway, with a wall of condo towers as their background. Like your home base, there are also a few highway LED billboards, which are insignificant compared to the other
polluters, as shown in my backyard photo.
– And yet I still get excellent 5 to 15 minute “unguided”, unprocessed, single exposure images of The Pelican, Eagle, Horsey Head, and Rosette.
I originally despaired that it would seem impossible, but now I ... “never leave the city” ... for what is ironically called our club’s “dark spot”, in a distant provincial forest clearing. Nice to run a session from the comforts
of home in any season, away from dew, cold, and mosquitoes, with good food & fine music, as I “observe” the screen’s captured images. There is no escape from sky glow – unless you stick with Narrow Band imaging, which surprisingly is still very rewarding,
for now, in spite of Elon Musk’s increasing attempts to ruin it for every serious observer, over the entire planet.
So, don’t give up on city based observing.
Joe Z.
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Roland Christen
Elon Musk’s increasing attempts to ruin it for every serious observer, over the entire planet. Speaking of Elon, did everyone see yesterday's APOD? https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap220614.html
Last night I was showing someone how to image with a scope and astrocamera. He was looking up at the sky and at one point said "hey look, a satellite!". All I could think was GRRRRRR.
Rolando
-----Original Message----- From: Joe Zeglinski <J.Zeglinski@...> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io Sent: Wed, Jun 15, 2022 10:03 am Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Our blinding blaring world Fernando,
Just to be clear – pun intended – you are
saying ... You wouldn’t do any deep sky VIEWING from your downtown
area? How about deep sky imaging using decent
Narrow Band filters?
I do that, but always substitute for the
standard Luminance clear filter with a Hutech IDAS- P2, for Monochrome
CCD’s, preserving the SII line, (which the -D2 version for DSLR/One-shot
blocks out). That effectively blocks out city light pollution sources on its
own, in tri-colour imaging. Even the best expensive ones pay for themselves in
no time, at the cost of gas to drive to a dark site.
I image only from within a major
metropolitan city, (population 6.3 million), with my AP-1200/RC-14.5 often
pointed only about 20 degrees DIRECTLY above a row of High Pressure Sodium vapour lamp towers, high up on a
nearby elevated highway, with a wall of condo towers as their background. Like
your home base, there are also a few highway LED billboards, which are
insignificant compared to the other polluters, as shown in my backyard
photo.
– And yet I still get excellent 5 to 15
minute “unguided”, unprocessed, single exposure images of The Pelican,
Eagle, Horsey Head, and Rosette.
I originally despaired that it
would seem impossible, but now I ... “never leave the city” ... for
what is ironically called our club’s “dark spot”, in a distant provincial
forest clearing. Nice to run a session from the comforts of home in any season,
away from dew, cold, and mosquitoes, with good food & fine music, as I
“observe” the screen’s captured images. There is no escape from sky glow –
unless you stick with Narrow Band imaging, which surprisingly is still very
rewarding, for now, in spite of Elon Musk’s increasing attempts to ruin it for
every serious observer, over the entire planet.
So, don’t give up on city based
observing.
Joe Z.
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Joe Zeglinski
Fernando,
Just to be clear – pun intended – you are
saying ... You wouldn’t do any deep sky VIEWING from your downtown
area? How about deep sky imaging using decent
Narrow Band filters?
I do that, but always substitute for the
standard Luminance clear filter with a Hutech IDAS- P2, for Monochrome
CCD’s, preserving the SII line, (which the -D2 version for DSLR/One-shot
blocks out). That effectively blocks out city light pollution sources on its
own, in tri-colour imaging. Even the best expensive ones pay for themselves in
no time, at the cost of gas to drive to a dark site.
I image only from within a major
metropolitan city, (population 6.3 million), with my AP-1200/RC-14.5 often
pointed only about 20 degrees DIRECTLY above a row of High Pressure Sodium vapour lamp towers, high up on a
nearby elevated highway, with a wall of condo towers as their background. Like
your home base, there are also a few highway LED billboards, which are
insignificant compared to the other polluters, as shown in my backyard
photo.
– And yet I still get excellent 5 to 15
minute “unguided”, unprocessed, single exposure images of The Pelican,
Eagle, Horsey Head, and Rosette.
I originally despaired that it
would seem impossible, but now I ... “never leave the city” ... for
what is ironically called our club’s “dark spot”, in a distant provincial
forest clearing. Nice to run a session from the comforts of home in any season,
away from dew, cold, and mosquitoes, with good food & fine music, as I
“observe” the screen’s captured images. There is no escape from sky glow –
unless you stick with Narrow Band imaging, which surprisingly is still very
rewarding, for now, in spite of Elon Musk’s increasing attempts to ruin it for
every serious observer, over the entire planet.
So, don’t give up on city based
observing.
Joe Z.
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fernandorivera3
On those VERY RARE OCCASIONS when my vacation time from work, clear transparent skies & New Moon week actually coincide- I travel to either of 2 favorite dark sky sites of mine, both here in Texas. Unfortunately for either place it is 7 hours or 11 hours on the road EACH WAY (not round trip) 😳
Absolutely no way would I do serious deep sky viewing from my DOWNTOWN location! The LED billboards, gas station convenience stores, strip malls etc light pollution at night is so EGREGIOUS that it is probably seen easily from the International Space Station during its orbit. Shielded light fixtures are not in place anywhere for perhaps hundreds of miles in ANY DIRECTION 😡 Fernando |
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One persuasive angle might be focusing on the profound waste of valuable energy every night, blasting billions of watts of energy up and away into the night sky, where it benefits nothing and no one. On Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 4:14 PM Sébastien Doré <sebastiendore1@...> wrote:
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Sébastien Doré
On a more positive note, there are some good initiatives around the globe from simple people asking mayors of their locality to promote dark skies special events in which they shutdown (almost) all public lighting downtown for several hours
on a predetermined night.
All citizens are invited to get together to benefit from the incredible views they have access to right above their home town / backyard on that very special night. It’s also a good opportunity to shot some great urban wide field photos
featuring the wonders above and of course it is perfect time to educate people about light pollution, its harmful effects on astronomy/human life/wildlife and how they can mitigate it with careful lighting planning/usage.
Those are isolated initiatives for the most part I think (but getting more and more popular especially in some regions of Europe) and so imagine if every big city/state would have one of those on the same night... or, let’s dream for an entire
week (like the annual international dark sky week: https://idsw.darksky.org/ ) or during the NEAF/AIC weekends, etc. Darkness for hundreds of kilometers around available to everybody for a few hours on a well chosen
cloudless, Moonless night...🤩
I bet you it would make those who have never seen a truly dark sky realize what they are missing and help our cause somehow...
I’m thinking, any AstroNuts ready to jump in and ask their mayor for such a coordinated event ?
Sébastien
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thefamily90 Phillips
I am lucky in that our beach house is located close enough to the ocean that if you look towards England there’s not a whole lot of light pollution in that direction. Bortle 4. If you turn around and look toward the city lights are blazing away.
Jim
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of M Hambrick <mhambrick563@...>
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2022 7:39:17 PM To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Our blinding blaring world Of all the things that can be advocated, the one with the highest probability of success would be to try to encourage communities to use shielded light fixtures. This might not reverse the damage that has already been done, but it might be able to stop
it from getting worse.
A good example of this is Wimberley Texas. The Texas Hill Country is famous for having some very dark skies, and that is still true in some areas. Wimberley is a wonderful town to visit, and as you drive into town you will see signs posted on the roads claiming that Wimberley is recognized by the International Dark Sky Association as being very dark sky friendly. The city has enacted some pretty strict measures to minimize or reduce light pollution, but it may be too little, too late in their case. If you look at a Bortle map of this part of the state. Wimberley is barely better than a suburban location. Now, Roland's and Marj's vacation home in Hawaii (in the upper left quadrant in the bottom screen shot), They have still got some pretty dark skies. Mike  
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Of all the things that can be advocated, the one with the highest probability of success would be to try to encourage communities to use shielded light fixtures. This might not reverse the damage that has already been done, but it might be able to stop it from getting worse.
A good example of this is Wimberley Texas. The Texas Hill Country is famous for having some very dark skies, and that is still true in some areas. Wimberley is a wonderful town to visit, and as you drive into town you will see signs posted on the roads claiming that Wimberley is recognized by the International Dark Sky Association as being very dark sky friendly. The city has enacted some pretty strict measures to minimize or reduce light pollution, but it may be too little, too late in their case. If you look at a Bortle map of this part of the state. Wimberley is barely better than a suburban location. Now, Roland's and Marj's vacation home in Hawaii (in the upper left quadrant in the bottom screen shot), They have still got some pretty dark skies. Mike  
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Frank Widmann
One useful tool in combating light pollution is the concept of light trespass. The county I live in has a requirement that all lights be shielded to prevent intrusion beyond the property line. Why should somebody else’s questionable taste and silly phobias be allowed to interfere with my enjoyment of my property? If there is one thing even light polluters can understand, it is property rights.
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Frank On Jun 14, 2022, at 6:18 AM, ap@... wrote:
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