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  2. Interactions Between Keypad and APCC Orthogonality Models?

Interactions Between Keypad and APCC Orthogonality Models? #APCC #Mach2GTO #Keypad

John Upton
 

Hi all,

   I am looking for some clarifications regarding the interactions / interoperability of the Ortho Model performed by the Keypad versus the pointing model created by APCC? The questions I want to understand are:

  1. I assume the APCC model takes precedence when a Keypad Ortho Model has been built. Is that correct?

  2. Does the APCC model erase the results of the Keypad Ortho Model or simply override it?

  3. If the APCC pointing corrections are turned off, does the most recent Keypad Ortho Model once again take effect or does a new one need to be built?
   For some observing and simple single object imaging sessions, I think I would like to just have the orthogonality error corrected without creating / running a normal pointing model. It would simplify / speed up plate solving on both sides of the meridian. Ideally, for a quick portable imaging session, I would prefer not to have to rerun the Keypad Ortho Model at the beginning of each session when I don't want to run APPM. I will be guiding for these sessions and since they involve only a single target, plate solving will suffice for the evening's only target.


John
Ray Gralak
 

Hi John,

I am looking for some clarifications regarding the interactions / interoperability of the Ortho Model
performed by the Keypad versus the pointing model created by APCC? The questions I want to understand
are:
You should not simultaneously use an APCC model with the keypad model, as they do not know about each other!

-Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of John Upton
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2021 7:56 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: [ap-gto] Interactions Between Keypad and APCC Orthogonality Models? #Mach2GTO #APCC
#Keypad

Hi all,

I am looking for some clarifications regarding the interactions / interoperability of the Ortho Model
performed by the Keypad versus the pointing model created by APCC? The questions I want to understand
are:



1. I assume the APCC model takes precedence when a Keypad Ortho Model has been built. Is that
correct?


2. Does the APCC model erase the results of the Keypad Ortho Model or simply override it?


3. If the APCC pointing corrections are turned off, does the most recent Keypad Ortho Model once again
take effect or does a new one need to be built?

For some observing and simple single object imaging sessions, I think I would like to just have the
orthogonality error corrected without creating / running a normal pointing model. It would simplify / speed up
plate solving on both sides of the meridian. Ideally, for a quick portable imaging session, I would prefer not to
have to rerun the Keypad Ortho Model at the beginning of each session when I don't want to run APPM. I will
be guiding for these sessions and since they involve only a single target, plate solving will suffice for the
evening's only target.


John
Roland Christen
 

The CP4/5 controllers are totally independent of anything that APCC does. APCC models are not loaded into the CP controllers.

The way it works is like this:

1) if you do NOT create an Ortho model with the keypad, then APCC models will naturally create their own and compensate automatically for any non-orthogonality.

2) if you first create an Ortho model with the keypad, that model will be loaded into the mount's CP servo controller and will therefore be active at all times. If you then create a pointing model with APCC, it will simply respond to the way the mount now points more accurately and will naturally not have an ortho model built into its own model.

An ortho model that is created using the keypad will reside in the mount's controller at all times and be active from then on, regardless of power cycles. If you change the scope to something different that has a different orthogonality error, then you simply run the ortho routine for that setup.

If you first model a new setup with APCC and then create a new ortho model with the keypad, then you will have two orthos that will negate each other.

Roland


-----Original Message-----
From: John Upton <upton@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Sep 14, 2021 9:56 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Interactions Between Keypad and APCC Orthogonality Models? #Mach2GTO #APCC #Keypad

Hi all,

   I am looking for some clarifications regarding the interactions / interoperability of the Ortho Model performed by the Keypad versus the pointing model created by APCC? The questions I want to understand are:

  1. I assume the APCC model takes precedence when a Keypad Ortho Model has been built. Is that correct?

  2. Does the APCC model erase the results of the Keypad Ortho Model or simply override it?

  3. If the APCC pointing corrections are turned off, does the most recent Keypad Ortho Model once again take effect or does a new one need to be built?
   For some observing and simple single object imaging sessions, I think I would like to just have the orthogonality error corrected without creating / running a normal pointing model. It would simplify / speed up plate solving on both sides of the meridian. Ideally, for a quick portable imaging session, I would prefer not to have to rerun the Keypad Ortho Model at the beginning of each session when I don't want to run APPM. I will be guiding for these sessions and since they involve only a single target, plate solving will suffice for the evening's only target.


John

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics
Roland Christen
 


You should not simultaneously use an APCC model with the keypad model, as they do not know about each other!
You can use them but only if you first create the keypad ortho model and load it into the CP4/5. Once that is done, it will simply make pointing for external models easier.

What you should not do is to create a keypad ortho model after making an APCC model, since that will negate the one in APCC.

Roland


-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Gralak <iogroups@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Sep 14, 2021 10:52 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Interactions Between Keypad and APCC Orthogonality Models? #Mach2GTO #APCC #Keypad

Hi John,

>    I am looking for some clarifications regarding the interactions / interoperability of the Ortho Model
> performed by the Keypad versus the pointing model created by APCC? The questions I want to understand
> are:

You should not simultaneously use an APCC model with the keypad model, as they do not know about each other!

-Ray

> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of John Upton
> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2021 7:56 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: [ap-gto] Interactions Between Keypad and APCC Orthogonality Models? #Mach2GTO #APCC
> #Keypad
>
> Hi all,
>
>    I am looking for some clarifications regarding the interactions / interoperability of the Ortho Model
> performed by the Keypad versus the pointing model created by APCC? The questions I want to understand
> are:
>
>
>
> 1.    I assume the APCC model takes precedence when a Keypad Ortho Model has been built. Is that
> correct?
>
>
> 2.    Does the APCC model erase the results of the Keypad Ortho Model or simply override it?
>
>
> 3.    If the APCC pointing corrections are turned off, does the most recent Keypad Ortho Model once again
> take effect or does a new one need to be built?
>
>    For some observing and simple single object imaging sessions, I think I would like to just have the
> orthogonality error corrected without creating / running a normal pointing model. It would simplify / speed up
> plate solving on both sides of the meridian. Ideally, for a quick portable imaging session, I would prefer not to
> have to rerun the Keypad Ortho Model at the beginning of each session when I don't want to run APPM. I will
> be guiding for these sessions and since they involve only a single target, plate solving will suffice for the
> evening's only target.
>
>
> John
>







--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics
Roland Christen
 


  • Does the APCC model erase the results of the Keypad Ortho Model or simply override it?

  • If the APCC pointing corrections are turned off, does the most recent Keypad Ortho Model once again take effect or does a new one need to be built?
    • APCC does not erase the keypad ortho model. The keypad model resides in the CP controller and is used to compensate for non-orthogonality at all times, whether an external model is used or not. Once created, it does not turn off. External models will actually use it without knowing that it's there. It is as if the scope is now perfectly orthogonal, so any external model would not have any ortho component in their data.

    Rolando


    -----Original Message-----
    From: John Upton <upton@...>
    To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
    Sent: Tue, Sep 14, 2021 9:56 pm
    Subject: [ap-gto] Interactions Between Keypad and APCC Orthogonality Models? #Mach2GTO #APCC #Keypad

    Hi all,

       I am looking for some clarifications regarding the interactions / interoperability of the Ortho Model performed by the Keypad versus the pointing model created by APCC? The questions I want to understand are:

    1. I assume the APCC model takes precedence when a Keypad Ortho Model has been built. Is that correct?

    2. Does the APCC model erase the results of the Keypad Ortho Model or simply override it?

    3. If the APCC pointing corrections are turned off, does the most recent Keypad Ortho Model once again take effect or does a new one need to be built?
       For some observing and simple single object imaging sessions, I think I would like to just have the orthogonality error corrected without creating / running a normal pointing model. It would simplify / speed up plate solving on both sides of the meridian. Ideally, for a quick portable imaging session, I would prefer not to have to rerun the Keypad Ortho Model at the beginning of each session when I don't want to run APPM. I will be guiding for these sessions and since they involve only a single target, plate solving will suffice for the evening's only target.


    John

    --
    Roland Christen
    Astro-Physics
    John Upton
     

    Roland and Ray,

       Thanks so much for the very detailed answers, I have a much clearer picture of how it all works together now. Your answers address all of my confusion. I think I also understand the pitfall situations you can get into.

       I do have one more question prompted by your comment below.

    On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 11:29 AM, Roland Christen wrote:
    The keypad model resides in the CP controller and is used to compensate for non-orthogonality at all times, whether an external model is used or not. Once created, it does not turn off.
       I now understand that the Keypad Ortho Model resides (more or less permanently) in the CP5 controller. Once created, it resides in the CP5 until such time as it is overwritten by doing a new Keypad Ortho Model. My new questions then, are as follows:

    1. Does the Keypad Ortho Model get turned off in the CP5 when you explicitly turn off all Modeling in the Keypad menu? (Main_Menu | 8-Model Status | ModOff)

    2. If the Ortho Model can effectively be turned off (as in question 1), is the same Keypad Ortho Model restored when you enable PntOn (even though I never intend to create a Keypad Pointing Model -- I only plan to use the Keypad Ortho Model). Or, once Keypad Modeling is turned off, I would need to create a new Keypad Ortho Model?


    John
    Roland Christen
     


    Does the Keypad Ortho Model get turned off in the CP5 when you explicitly turn off all Modeling in the Keypad menu? (Main_Menu | 8-Model Status | ModOff)
    No, the Ortho is always on regardless of whether you use or turn off any of the other keypad models. Once you enter ortho data it stays there until you overwrite it by doing a new ortho routine.

    Roland


    -----Original Message-----
    From: John Upton <upton@...>
    To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
    Sent: Wed, Sep 15, 2021 5:04 pm
    Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Interactions Between Keypad and APCC Orthogonality Models? #Mach2GTO #APCC #Keypad

    Roland and Ray,

       Thanks so much for the very detailed answers, I have a much clearer picture of how it all works together now. Your answers address all of my confusion. I think I also understand the pitfall situations you can get into.

       I do have one more question prompted by your comment below.

    On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 11:29 AM, Roland Christen wrote:
    The keypad model resides in the CP controller and is used to compensate for non-orthogonality at all times, whether an external model is used or not. Once created, it does not turn off.
       I now understand that the Keypad Ortho Model resides (more or less permanently) in the CP5 controller. Once created, it resides in the CP5 until such time as it is overwritten by doing a new Keypad Ortho Model. My new questions then, are as follows:

    1. Does the Keypad Ortho Model get turned off in the CP5 when you explicitly turn off all Modeling in the Keypad menu? (Main_Menu | 8-Model Status | ModOff)

    2. If the Ortho Model can effectively be turned off (as in question 1), is the same Keypad Ortho Model restored when you enable PntOn (even though I never intend to create a Keypad Pointing Model -- I only plan to use the Keypad Ortho Model). Or, once Keypad Modeling is turned off, I would need to create a new Keypad Ortho Model?


    John

    --
    Roland Christen
    Astro-Physics
    Konstantin von Poschinger
     

    Hi Roland,

    will the ortho setting also work with the new keypad software and a older not Mach2 Mount with a GTOCP4 box?

    Grüsse

    Konstantin v. Poschinger


    Hammerichstr. 5
    22605 Hamburg
    040/8805747
    0171/1983476

    Am 16.09.2021 um 00:27 schrieb Roland Christen via groups.io <chris1011@...>:

    

    Does the Keypad Ortho Model get turned off in the CP5 when you explicitly turn off all Modeling in the Keypad menu? (Main_Menu | 8-Model Status | ModOff)
    No, the Ortho is always on regardless of whether you use or turn off any of the other keypad models. Once you enter ortho data it stays there until you overwrite it by doing a new ortho routine.

    Roland


    -----Original Message-----
    From: John Upton <upton@...>
    To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
    Sent: Wed, Sep 15, 2021 5:04 pm
    Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Interactions Between Keypad and APCC Orthogonality Models? #Mach2GTO #APCC #Keypad

    Roland and Ray,

       Thanks so much for the very detailed answers, I have a much clearer picture of how it all works together now. Your answers address all of my confusion. I think I also understand the pitfall situations you can get into.

       I do have one more question prompted by your comment below.

    On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 11:29 AM, Roland Christen wrote:
    The keypad model resides in the CP controller and is used to compensate for non-orthogonality at all times, whether an external model is used or not. Once created, it does not turn off.
       I now understand that the Keypad Ortho Model resides (more or less permanently) in the CP5 controller. Once created, it resides in the CP5 until such time as it is overwritten by doing a new Keypad Ortho Model. My new questions then, are as follows:

    1. Does the Keypad Ortho Model get turned off in the CP5 when you explicitly turn off all Modeling in the Keypad menu? (Main_Menu | 8-Model Status | ModOff)

    2. If the Ortho Model can effectively be turned off (as in question 1), is the same Keypad Ortho Model restored when you enable PntOn (even though I never intend to create a Keypad Pointing Model -- I only plan to use the Keypad Ortho Model). Or, once Keypad Modeling is turned off, I would need to create a new Keypad Ortho Model?


    John

    --
    Roland Christen
    Astro-Physics

    Roland Christen
     

    We are working on making all keypad modeling available for the CP4.

    Roland



    -----Original Message-----
    From: Konstantin von Poschinger <KPoschinger@...>
    To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
    Sent: Wed, Sep 15, 2021 5:33 pm
    Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Interactions Between Keypad and APCC Orthogonality Models? #Mach2GTO #APCC #Keypad

    Hi Roland,

    will the ortho setting also work with the new keypad software and a older not Mach2 Mount with a GTOCP4 box?

    Grüsse

    Konstantin v. Poschinger


    Hammerichstr. 5
    22605 Hamburg
    040/8805747
    0171/1983476

    Am 16.09.2021 um 00:27 schrieb Roland Christen via groups.io <chris1011@...>:

    

    Does the Keypad Ortho Model get turned off in the CP5 when you explicitly turn off all Modeling in the Keypad menu? (Main_Menu | 8-Model Status | ModOff)
    No, the Ortho is always on regardless of whether you use or turn off any of the other keypad models. Once you enter ortho data it stays there until you overwrite it by doing a new ortho routine.

    Roland


    -----Original Message-----
    From: John Upton <upton@...>
    To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
    Sent: Wed, Sep 15, 2021 5:04 pm
    Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Interactions Between Keypad and APCC Orthogonality Models? #Mach2GTO #APCC #Keypad

    Roland and Ray,

       Thanks so much for the very detailed answers, I have a much clearer picture of how it all works together now. Your answers address all of my confusion. I think I also understand the pitfall situations you can get into.

       I do have one more question prompted by your comment below.

    On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 11:29 AM, Roland Christen wrote:
    The keypad model resides in the CP controller and is used to compensate for non-orthogonality at all times, whether an external model is used or not. Once created, it does not turn off.
       I now understand that the Keypad Ortho Model resides (more or less permanently) in the CP5 controller. Once created, it resides in the CP5 until such time as it is overwritten by doing a new Keypad Ortho Model. My new questions then, are as follows:

    1. Does the Keypad Ortho Model get turned off in the CP5 when you explicitly turn off all Modeling in the Keypad menu? (Main_Menu | 8-Model Status | ModOff)

    2. If the Ortho Model can effectively be turned off (as in question 1), is the same Keypad Ortho Model restored when you enable PntOn (even though I never intend to create a Keypad Pointing Model -- I only plan to use the Keypad Ortho Model). Or, once Keypad Modeling is turned off, I would need to create a new Keypad Ortho Model?


    John

    --
    Roland Christen
    Astro-Physics

    --
    Roland Christen
    Astro-Physics
    Eric Weiner
     

    Roland,

    Good topic. Does the ortho model also remain in the CP5 if you send the Mach2 to Home? Is there a way to clear it in cases where I want to use different scopes on the mount but aren’t concerned about orthogonality on one of them?

    Thanks,

    Eric
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