Dec-Arc Tracking in APCC Pro v1.9 - an explainer please?


Dean Jacobsen
 

Hi All,

I am interested in hearing how the new Dec-Arc feature in v1.9 works.

I set up my mount for each session.  I always know my object in advance of setup so I then run an abbreviated model which contains about 3 or 4 lines which bracket the declination of my object for the night.

This has been working great for me for about a year now at focal lengths of 380mm and 540mm.

The image below is an example of how I would set up a modeling run for an object at +60 degrees decination:



I have looked in the on line help file for APCC Pro and APPM and only see mention of the Dec-Arc feature in the "New Features" section.

So, my question is:  How do I implement this new feature other than setting the check box?  Does the Dec-Arc feature still require a "standard" APPM modeling run such as what I have been doing above?  Lastly, if I have already performed a APPM mapping run, then how will the Dec-Arc feature benefit me?

Thanks in advance for the help.

--
Dean Jacobsen
Astrobin Image Gallery - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/


Ray Gralak
 

Hi Dean,

 

In a nutshell:

 

The all-sky models produce a tracking rate derived from the best-fit pointing terms across all its data points. However, it is possible that the equipment has some un-modeled pointing characteristics. If so, then the tracking rate will not account for those un-modeled characteristics.

 

The declination-arc model is designed specifically for calculating tracking rates inclusive of any un-modeled characteristics. It does this by measuring the changes in pointing error along the declination arcs like in your screenshot. The more values in each arc the better the tracking rate modeling will be. Tracking rates are interpolated between declination arcs so the entire region encompassed by the sky data points is covered.

 

Some notes about this:

1)    Dec-Arc Tracking is only used for tracking rate calculations. The all-sky model, which is also calculated by APCC, still handles pointing.

2)    Tracking rate correction only works within the area in which sky points are measured. When outside that area APCC uses the all-sky tracking rate model. The All-Sky model will also extrapolate outside of the sky data points that were collected.

 

BTW, when I mention “All-Sky” model above, I mean one of the four model combinations: East/West, Counterweight Up/Down.

 

-Ray

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dean Jacobsen
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 10:06 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: [ap-gto] Dec-Arc Tracking in APCC Pro v1.9 - an explainer please?

 

Hi All,

I am interested in hearing how the new Dec-Arc feature in v1.9 works.

I set up my mount for each session.  I always know my object in advance of setup so I then run an abbreviated model which contains about 3 or 4 lines which bracket the declination of my object for the night.

This has been working great for me for about a year now at focal lengths of 380mm and 540mm.

The image below is an example of how I would set up a modeling run for an object at +60 degrees decination:



I have looked in the on line help file for APCC Pro and APPM and only see mention of the Dec-Arc feature in the "New Features" section.

So, my question is:  How do I implement this new feature other than setting the check box?  Does the Dec-Arc feature still require a "standard" APPM modeling run such as what I have been doing above?  Lastly, if I have already performed a APPM mapping run, then how will the Dec-Arc feature benefit me?

Thanks in advance for the help.

--
Dean Jacobsen
Astrobin Image Gallery - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/


Dean Jacobsen
 

Thanks Ray. 

So, there needs to be a APPM data acquisition and then APCC applies the data as is usual for a tracking rate model.  The Dec-Arc Tracking is another layer of precision on top of the APCC tracking model that I have been using... right?

In the example that I have provided above, are the APPM settings - 3 degree declination spacing and 9 degree RA spacing - good enough for a good Dec-Arc Tracking result for a target at +60 degrees declination?  ... or should I tighten up the spacing up a little?

I suspect I am going to hear "it depends".  :-)  Perhaps longer focal lengths will require closer spacing. The spacing I am using now works great for unguided images of up to 240 sec. at 380mm and 540mm.

--
Dean Jacobsen
Astrobin Image Gallery - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/


 

Dean just to answer your question here:

>>>How do I implement this new feature other than setting the check box?

After making your model you just check the box. you don't need to do anything else 

On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 1:09 PM Ray Gralak <iogroups@...> wrote:

Hi Dean,

 

In a nutshell:

 

The all-sky models produce a tracking rate derived from the best-fit pointing terms across all its data points. However, it is possible that the equipment has some un-modeled pointing characteristics. If so, then the tracking rate will not account for those un-modeled characteristics.

 

The declination-arc model is designed specifically for calculating tracking rates inclusive of any un-modeled characteristics. It does this by measuring the changes in pointing error along the declination arcs like in your screenshot. The more values in each arc the better the tracking rate modeling will be. Tracking rates are interpolated between declination arcs so the entire region encompassed by the sky data points is covered.

 

Some notes about this:

1)    Dec-Arc Tracking is only used for tracking rate calculations. The all-sky model, which is also calculated by APCC, still handles pointing.

2)    Tracking rate correction only works within the area in which sky points are measured. When outside that area APCC uses the all-sky tracking rate model. The All-Sky model will also extrapolate outside of the sky data points that were collected.

 

BTW, when I mention “All-Sky” model above, I mean one of the four model combinations: East/West, Counterweight Up/Down.

 

-Ray

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dean Jacobsen
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 10:06 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: [ap-gto] Dec-Arc Tracking in APCC Pro v1.9 - an explainer please?

 

Hi All,

I am interested in hearing how the new Dec-Arc feature in v1.9 works.

I set up my mount for each session.  I always know my object in advance of setup so I then run an abbreviated model which contains about 3 or 4 lines which bracket the declination of my object for the night.

This has been working great for me for about a year now at focal lengths of 380mm and 540mm.

The image below is an example of how I would set up a modeling run for an object at +60 degrees decination:



I have looked in the on line help file for APCC Pro and APPM and only see mention of the Dec-Arc feature in the "New Features" section.

So, my question is:  How do I implement this new feature other than setting the check box?  Does the Dec-Arc feature still require a "standard" APPM modeling run such as what I have been doing above?  Lastly, if I have already performed a APPM mapping run, then how will the Dec-Arc feature benefit me?

Thanks in advance for the help.

--
Dean Jacobsen
Astrobin Image Gallery - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


Dean Jacobsen
 

Yes, it appears that that is all it takes.  Couldn't be any simpler.

I was initially wondering if there was another set or type of APPM data that needed to be acquired to implement the feature.
--
Dean Jacobsen
Astrobin Image Gallery - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/


Dominique
 

Hi,
Seeking to know if the option of the 4 new functionalities is worth it for me and more particularly this one, the question that you ask Dean interests me too. I have a little trouble understanding why, while using an AllSky model, checking the option on APCC would be more effective in a given sector than elsewhere, without being told what to do with it. acts.
I think that some clarification on this operation would not harm, because for me it is witchcraft.

Dominique


 

Dominique

I believe Astro Physics offers a trial period, why not try it out and see if it benefits you?



On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 2:14 PM Dominique <d.h.durand@...> wrote:
Hi,
Seeking to know if the option of the 4 new functionalities is worth it for me and more particularly this one, the question that you ask Dean interests me too. I have a little trouble understanding why, while using an AllSky model, checking the option on APCC would be more effective in a given sector than elsewhere, without being told what to do with it. acts.
I think that some clarification on this operation would not harm, because for me it is witchcraft.

Dominique



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


Roland Christen
 

Hi Dean,

With Dec-Arc tracking you can model just the Dec arc of the object that you are imaging. You don't need the entire sky model for this to work.

Roland



-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Jacobsen <deanjacobsen@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2021 3:54 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Dec-Arc Tracking in APCC Pro v1.9 - an explainer please?

Thanks Ray. 

So, there needs to be a APPM data acquisition and then APCC applies the data as is usual for a tracking rate model.  The Dec-Arc Tracking is another layer of precision on top of the APCC tracking model that I have been using... right?

In the example that I have provided above, are the APPM settings - 3 degree declination spacing and 9 degree RA spacing - good enough for a good Dec-Arc Tracking result for a target at +60 degrees declination?  ... or should I tighten up the spacing up a little?

I suspect I am going to hear "it depends".  :-)  Perhaps longer focal lengths will require closer spacing. The spacing I am using now works great for unguided images of up to 240 sec. at 380mm and 540mm.

--
Dean Jacobsen
Astrobin Image Gallery - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Dominique
 

Hi Brian,
Now that I have understood the license renewal mode, I don't mind paying $ 100 to participate in the evolution of the functionalities, but even if I am sure that it is interesting for me to have this option I I would like to know more about the method used and therefore why on the sector where we want to image it works and not on another. There is something to be done to say that it is on this sector that we are imaging. Perhaps by checking the option just before imaging and therefore by being on the object to be imaged.

Dominique


Dean Jacobsen
 

On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 03:25 PM, Roland Christen wrote:
Hi Dean,
 
With Dec-Arc tracking you can model just the Dec arc of the object that you are imaging. You don't need the entire sky model for this to work.
Thanks Roland.  What if there is going to be a pier flip during the night?  How do I set that up?  Do I just set up a one line APPM run with a meridian flip?  Something just isn’t clicking in my mind on how to set this feature up.  I guess I will just wait for an example on setting it up to be posted.
 
--
Dean Jacobsen
Astrobin Image Gallery - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/


David Johnson
 

So, for example, if I wanted to do a target all night with a 53 degree N declination, I could do the below APPM mapping, enable the Dec-Arc tracking, and it would work fine?  If so, what if the target is actually at 53 deg, 15 minutes?  Is it a problem if the mapped arc is slightly off from the target declination?  If I wanted to do two separate targets, could I do just two dec arcs?  Sorry for all the questions, but this is not clear to many of us.


Roland Christen
 

I have used Dec arc tracking where the object is off by +- 5 degrees from my Dec line and had good, smooth and accurate results. The scope flex doesn't change much over a 5 degree Dec change, and the actual path won't be meaningfully different in the typical time it takes to take an image.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: David Johnson <dajohns37@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2021 7:40 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Dec-Arc Tracking in APCC Pro v1.9 - an explainer please?

So, for example, if I wanted to do a target all night with a 53 degree N declination, I could do the below APPM mapping, enable the Dec-Arc tracking, and it would work fine?  If so, what if the target is actually at 53 deg, 15 minutes?  Is it a problem if the mapped arc is slightly off from the target declination?  If I wanted to do two separate targets, could I do just two dec arcs?  Sorry for all the questions, but this is not clear to many of us.


--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Chris White
 

After upgrading does a new model need to be created to best take advantage of dec arc tracking, or will the old model be sufficient?  (Obsy mounted).

Also when uninstalling the previous version (I assume through windows control panel) do any steps need to be taken to ensure setting are not lost?  Should Profile and model be saved outside of their native folders prior to uninstall?

Thanks!


Roland Christen
 

Dec arc tracking is an independent model, not relying on the all-sky model. neither relies on the other to work.

By the way, for those who are keypad users, we also have similar model building in the latest keypad version. It does not use APCC, but can also create an accurate Dec arc model as well as an all-sky pointing/tracking model. It's more labor intensive, of course.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Chris White <chris.white@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2021 9:33 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Dec-Arc Tracking in APCC Pro v1.9 - an explainer please?

After upgrading does a new model need to be created to best take advantage of dec arc tracking, or will the old model be sufficient?  (Obsy mounted).

Also when uninstalling the previous version (I assume through windows control panel) do any steps need to be taken to ensure setting are not lost?  Should Profile and model be saved outside of their native folders prior to uninstall?

Thanks!

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Worsel
 

Chris

Using Windows Un-install without any embellishments worked for me.  The new version installed cleanly and all my previous parameters / data was there, i.e. models, PEM, Site.

Bryan


Dean Jacobsen
 

On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 07:53 PM, Roland Christen wrote:
Dec arc tracking is an independent model, not relying on the all-sky model. neither relies on the other to work.
Now I am confused.  How is the model created?  How do we obtain the data?

I am going to have to wait for the manual.
 
--
Dean Jacobsen
Astrobin Image Gallery - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/


Roland Christen
 


Now I am confused.  How is the model created?  How do we obtain the data?
You map one Dec arc that the object is on. You already know that. Why is it confusing? You don't need an all sky model for that to work.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Jacobsen <deanjacobsen@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2021 10:25 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Dec-Arc Tracking in APCC Pro v1.9 - an explainer please?

On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 07:53 PM, Roland Christen wrote:
Dec arc tracking is an independent model, not relying on the all-sky model. neither relies on the other to work.
Now I am confused.  How is the model created?  How do we obtain the data?

I am going to have to wait for the manual.
 
--
Dean Jacobsen
Astrobin Image Gallery - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


 

Dean


As an example I do 900sec subs unguided with just Dec Arc tracking @ 480mm on the ASI6200

https://www.brianvalentephotography.com/astrophotography/i-DwvmwzK/A

The tracking is so good that when i'm pixel peeping all i see is the slight backfocus issue that elongates my stars in the corners. 

Brian



Dean Jacobsen
 

OK, I’m convinced it will work good.  But are you using the keypad or are you using it via APCC?  And if you are using via APCC, then what is involved in getting everything set up?  Do you need to collect data points via APPM?  Roland said the feature does not use the all sky model.  What data does the feature rely upon?
--
Dean Jacobsen
Astrobin Image Gallery - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/


John Chakel
 

Use APPM to collect the data for your dec arc.