Topics

A couple of doubts about modeling and about not using guiding. #APCC #Mach2GTO


Marcelo Figueroa
 

Hi,
 
While waiting for the weather to finally allow me to test my Mach2 (it's winter here in the southern hemisphere), I have a couple of doubts about modeling:
 
(my installation is semi-permanent in my backyard)
 
1) How often do I need to redo the modeling, for example, do I need one for the winter and one for the summer?
 
2) If I change the camera, do I also need to redo the modeling?
 
 
One more thing. A small advantage of guiding is that it acts in fact as a weather monitor, if it gets cloudy the guide star is lost and the session is aborted. In the case of going unguided, how do I monitor the weather. Do I need any additional equipment?
 
Thank you,


Roland Christen
 


1) How often do I need to redo the modeling,
Unless you change something on the setup, the model should work any time in any weather. Depends somewhat also on the pixel scale. If you are working at long focal lengths you would need to add an atmospheric pressure detector to add to the model terms.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Marcelo Figueroa via groups.io <marfig1970@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Aug 18, 2020 3:20 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] A couple of doubts about modeling and about not using guiding. #Mach2GTO #APCC

Hi,
 
While waiting for the weather to finally allow me to test my Mach2 (it's winter here in the southern hemisphere), I have a couple of doubts about modeling:
 
(my installation is semi-permanent in my backyard)
 
1) How often do I need to redo the modeling, for example, do I need one for the winter and one for the summer?
 
2) If I change the camera, do I also need to redo the modeling?
 
 
One more thing. A small advantage of guiding is that it acts in fact as a weather monitor, if it gets cloudy the guide star is lost and the session is aborted. In the case of going unguided, how do I monitor the weather. Do I need any additional equipment?
 
Thank you,


Marcelo Figueroa
 

OK, thank you very much. Good to know. :)
 
My telescope is an Esprit 100, so I guess I don't need an atmospheric pressure detector at the moment.


 

HI Marcelo

Temperature does have some impact on the modeling (talking with Ray on this) so you might consider having an environmental sensor in there like an MGBox V2

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 6:17 PM Marcelo Figueroa via groups.io <marfig1970=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
OK, thank you very much. Good to know. :)
 
My telescope is an Esprit 100, so I guess I don't need an atmospheric pressure detector at the moment.



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


Bill Long
 

I would add that modeling is not some strange voodoo. You can model while you are getting ready for a night of imaging well before its even astro dark. The idea that gear needs to be permanently mounted to get good benefits from modeling is wrong. People should install APCC Pro, even if its with the trial, and give a run and see how it works for you.

It will do the following things:
  1. Give you a greater appreciation for Ray. He's kind of the unsung A-P hero behind the scenes. 
  2. Give you much improved guiding over what you had without the model.
  3. Allow you to appreciate further the sounds of an A-P mount slewing around. 
  4. Allow you to try your hand at some unguided imaging with confidence that you aren't naked in the woods with nothing at all correcting the mount.
  5. Bestow upon you a newfound OCD over Polar Alignment quality.
  6. Give you some time to tuck the little ones in bed, read a story, all while the mount just does it all for you.
These are not in any order of importance, just random thoughts. Try it though -- I dare you! I bet you will wonder how you lived (and more importantly imaged) without it.

Bill

PS. Ray is pretty cool. 🙂 


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 1:52 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] A couple of doubts about modeling and about not using guiding. #Mach2GTO #APCC
 

1) How often do I need to redo the modeling,
Unless you change something on the setup, the model should work any time in any weather. Depends somewhat also on the pixel scale. If you are working at long focal lengths you would need to add an atmospheric pressure detector to add to the model terms.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Marcelo Figueroa via groups.io <marfig1970@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Aug 18, 2020 3:20 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] A couple of doubts about modeling and about not using guiding. #Mach2GTO #APCC

Hi,
 
While waiting for the weather to finally allow me to test my Mach2 (it's winter here in the southern hemisphere), I have a couple of doubts about modeling:
 
(my installation is semi-permanent in my backyard)
 
1) How often do I need to redo the modeling, for example, do I need one for the winter and one for the summer?
 
2) If I change the camera, do I also need to redo the modeling?
 
 
One more thing. A small advantage of guiding is that it acts in fact as a weather monitor, if it gets cloudy the guide star is lost and the session is aborted. In the case of going unguided, how do I monitor the weather. Do I need any additional equipment?
 
Thank you,


Bill Long
 

Per my chat with Ray, having accurate temperature data is THE most important thing. 


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Valente <bvalente@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 6:47 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] A couple of doubts about modeling and about not using guiding. #Mach2GTO #APCC
 
HI Marcelo

Temperature does have some impact on the modeling (talking with Ray on this) so you might consider having an environmental sensor in there like an MGBox V2

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 6:17 PM Marcelo Figueroa via groups.io <marfig1970=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
OK, thank you very much. Good to know. :)
 
My telescope is an Esprit 100, so I guess I don't need an atmospheric pressure detector at the moment.



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


Joseph Beyer
 

I don't own an environmental sensor that interfaces directly with my computer but I manually enter current temperature and barometric pressure from my backyard weather station into the APCC-Pro Pointing Model tab when I run a model.  The data is pulled through to APPM and I assume used in the calculation of the pointing and tracking model.  Is this assumption correct?

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 7:16 PM Bill Long <bill@...> wrote:
Per my chat with Ray, having accurate temperature data is THE most important thing. 


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Valente <bvalente@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 6:47 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] A couple of doubts about modeling and about not using guiding. #Mach2GTO #APCC
 
HI Marcelo

Temperature does have some impact on the modeling (talking with Ray on this) so you might consider having an environmental sensor in there like an MGBox V2

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 6:17 PM Marcelo Figueroa via groups.io <marfig1970=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
OK, thank you very much. Good to know. :)
 
My telescope is an Esprit 100, so I guess I don't need an atmospheric pressure detector at the moment.



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


Bill Long
 

Correct. That method should work fine. 


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Joseph Beyer <jcbeyer2001@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 8:55 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] A couple of doubts about modeling and about not using guiding. #Mach2GTO #APCC
 
I don't own an environmental sensor that interfaces directly with my computer but I manually enter current temperature and barometric pressure from my backyard weather station into the APCC-Pro Pointing Model tab when I run a model.  The data is pulled through to APPM and I assume used in the calculation of the pointing and tracking model.  Is this assumption correct?

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 7:16 PM Bill Long <bill@...> wrote:
Per my chat with Ray, having accurate temperature data is THE most important thing. 


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Valente <bvalente@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 6:47 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] A couple of doubts about modeling and about not using guiding. #Mach2GTO #APCC
 
HI Marcelo

Temperature does have some impact on the modeling (talking with Ray on this) so you might consider having an environmental sensor in there like an MGBox V2

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 6:17 PM Marcelo Figueroa via groups.io <marfig1970=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
OK, thank you very much. Good to know. :)
 
My telescope is an Esprit 100, so I guess I don't need an atmospheric pressure detector at the moment.



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


 

That will work for model building, but you need the current temperature as you are imaging, so you really need a way where the temperature is updated on a consistent basis.

the modeling adjusts based on temp at time of modeling and current temp when imaging

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 8:56 PM Joseph Beyer <jcbeyer2001@...> wrote:
I don't own an environmental sensor that interfaces directly with my computer but I manually enter current temperature and barometric pressure from my backyard weather station into the APCC-Pro Pointing Model tab when I run a model.  The data is pulled through to APPM and I assume used in the calculation of the pointing and tracking model.  Is this assumption correct?

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 7:16 PM Bill Long <bill@...> wrote:
Per my chat with Ray, having accurate temperature data is THE most important thing. 


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Valente <bvalente@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 6:47 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] A couple of doubts about modeling and about not using guiding. #Mach2GTO #APCC
 
HI Marcelo

Temperature does have some impact on the modeling (talking with Ray on this) so you might consider having an environmental sensor in there like an MGBox V2

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 6:17 PM Marcelo Figueroa via groups.io <marfig1970=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
OK, thank you very much. Good to know. :)
 
My telescope is an Esprit 100, so I guess I don't need an atmospheric pressure detector at the moment.



--
Brian 



Brian Valente



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


Dean Jacobsen
 

If one were to employ a MGBox does the software adjust or update the model in real time as the temperature changes, and, if so, are these adjustments to the model updated into the tracking rate correction in real time?
--
Dean Jacobsen
http://astrophoto.net/wp/
Image Gallery - http://astrophoto.net/wp/image-gallery/
Astrobin - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/ 


Bill Long
 

Yes there is an environment poll that APCC does. The sensor provided with the Pegasus Ultimate Powerbox v2 and Powerbox Advance (cheaper) works perfectly with APCC. 


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Dean Jacobsen <deanjacobsen@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 9:24 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] A couple of doubts about modeling and about not using guiding. #Mach2GTO #APCC
 
If one were to employ a MGBox does the software adjust or update the model in real time as the temperature changes, and, if so, are these adjustments to the model updated into the tracking rate correction in real time?
--
Dean Jacobsen
http://astrophoto.net/wp/
Image Gallery - http://astrophoto.net/wp/image-gallery/
Astrobin - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/ 


 

Dean

Ray is probably best to answer, but i've had long talks with him on this and yes, MGBox (or something similar) provides updated temperatures, and the APPM modeling takes the temperature into account when adjusting the tracking in real time

When Ray says temperature is important, i'm fairly certain the above is what he is referring to

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 9:24 PM Dean Jacobsen <deanjacobsen@...> wrote:
If one were to employ a MGBox does the software adjust or update the model in real time as the temperature changes, and, if so, are these adjustments to the model updated into the tracking rate correction in real time?
--
Dean Jacobsen
http://astrophoto.net/wp/
Image Gallery - http://astrophoto.net/wp/image-gallery/
Astrobin - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/ 



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


Dean Jacobsen
 
Edited

Thanks Bill and Brian.  This is something that I want to incorporate then.

We get pretty significant temperature changes throughout the night so keeping track of the difference between when the model was made and then during imaging might be something I would want to do.
--
Dean Jacobsen
http://astrophoto.net/wp/
Image Gallery - http://astrophoto.net/wp/image-gallery/
Astrobin - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/ 


Joseph Beyer
 

Thanks for confirming.

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 9:09 PM Brian Valente <bvalente@...> wrote:
That will work for model building, but you need the current temperature as you are imaging, so you really need a way where the temperature is updated on a consistent basis.

the modeling adjusts based on temp at time of modeling and current temp when imaging

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 8:56 PM Joseph Beyer <jcbeyer2001@...> wrote:
I don't own an environmental sensor that interfaces directly with my computer but I manually enter current temperature and barometric pressure from my backyard weather station into the APCC-Pro Pointing Model tab when I run a model.  The data is pulled through to APPM and I assume used in the calculation of the pointing and tracking model.  Is this assumption correct?

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 7:16 PM Bill Long <bill@...> wrote:
Per my chat with Ray, having accurate temperature data is THE most important thing. 


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Valente <bvalente@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 6:47 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] A couple of doubts about modeling and about not using guiding. #Mach2GTO #APCC
 
HI Marcelo

Temperature does have some impact on the modeling (talking with Ray on this) so you might consider having an environmental sensor in there like an MGBox V2

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 6:17 PM Marcelo Figueroa via groups.io <marfig1970=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
OK, thank you very much. Good to know. :)
 
My telescope is an Esprit 100, so I guess I don't need an atmospheric pressure detector at the moment.



--
Brian 



Brian Valente



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


 

FYI if you are at a shared remote obs they often have a boltwood file available from their environmental sensors that is available for use, and that also work for APPM 

this is what we use at Obstech (chile) as our MGBOx is not currently working correctly



On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 9:38 PM Dean Jacobsen <deanjacobsen@...> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Thanks Bill and Brian.  This is something that I want to incorporate then.

We get pretty significant temperature changes throughout the night so keeping track of the difference between when the model was made and then during imaging might be something I would want to do.
--
Dean Jacobsen
http://astrophoto.net/wp/
Image Gallery - http://astrophoto.net/wp/image-gallery/
Astrobin - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/ 



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


Dean Jacobsen
 

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 09:42 PM, Brian Valente wrote:
FYI if you are at a shared remote obs they often have a boltwood file available from their environmental sensors that is available for use, and that also work for APPM
Yes, I put up a Sky Alert box when we installed the roof system.  It is on our network as an Ethernet device. I haven’t been able to test whether I can connect up with it through ASCOM yet because the weather hasn’t been cooperating this cycle.
 
--
Dean Jacobsen
http://astrophoto.net/wp/
Image Gallery - http://astrophoto.net/wp/image-gallery/
Astrobin - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/ 


 

Dean i realize we may have talked about this a few posts ago :)

I do think your skybox can generate a boltwood file, you just need to figure out how to store that to an accessible folder for your computer

Happy to share what we've done here offlist if you like

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 9:50 PM Dean Jacobsen <deanjacobsen@...> wrote:
On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 09:42 PM, Brian Valente wrote:
FYI if you are at a shared remote obs they often have a boltwood file available from their environmental sensors that is available for use, and that also work for APPM
Yes, I put up a Sky Alert box when we installed the roof system.  It is on our network as an Ethernet device. I haven’t been able to test whether I can connect up with it through ASCOM yet because the weather hasn’t been cooperating this cycle.
 
--
Dean Jacobsen
http://astrophoto.net/wp/
Image Gallery - http://astrophoto.net/wp/image-gallery/
Astrobin - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/ 



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


Dean Jacobsen
 

Yes we did.  :-)  And it is on the “to do” list, but haven’t been able to get out to the observatory yet.  I will pester you if I can’t figure it out.
--
Dean Jacobsen
http://astrophoto.net/wp/
Image Gallery - http://astrophoto.net/wp/image-gallery/
Astrobin - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/ 


Tom Blahovici
 

Are focuser temperature probes supported like to Moonlite NightCrawlers?
Tom


Bill Long
 

It doesn't have an ASCOM Observing Conditions driver, so no.


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Tom Blahovici <tom.va2fsq@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 10:04 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] A couple of doubts about modeling and about not using guiding. #Mach2GTO #APCC
 
Are focuser temperature probes supported like to Moonlite NightCrawlers?
Tom