New file uploaded to ap-gto


ap-gto@...
 

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the ap-gto
group.

File : /Mach2 Guide results/Mach2-Roundness-MaximDL-5-4-19.jpg
Uploaded by : uncarollo2 <chris1011@...>
Description : Comparison of Guiding with PHD2 versus MaximDL

You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ap-gto/files/Mach2%20Guide%20results/Mach2-Roundness-MaximDL-5-4-19.jpg

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
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Regards,

uncarollo2 <chris1011@...>


Roland Christen
 

Hello Astrophoto Nuts,

I have uploaded a few results in the Files section showing the results of guiding with PHD2 and MaximDL. Both programs gave good results once all the parameters were dialed in, however MaximDL consistently produced lower RMS guide numbers and lower eccentricities on stars in a 10 minute exposure.

Some thoughts about PHD2: This program has a large amount of variables that can be set, and thus messed up if one is not careful. When I went thru the Wizard, the program set the parameters according to the tests that were automatically run. Turning on the guiding produced huge oscillations in both RA and Dec that could only be tamed by setting the aggressiveness to a very low value. My experience with guider programs led me to believe that i had a bad calibration run, so i did it again, but the result was the same. Dec was consistently worse than RA, which didn't make sense. Eventually the program settled down when i used very low aggressiveness in Dec and higher min-move.

Final setting were: 60% in RA with 0.1 pixel min-move (0.28 arc sec), and 28% in Dec with a slightly larger min-move of 0.15 pixel (0.42 arc sec).

MaximDL: There are only a few settings that you can manipulate, the guider program hasn't changed materially since it was first sold way back in the ST4 era. That said, the program is straight forward as far as settings. Once you calibrate, good guiding is almost a given. You adjust the aggressiveness to prevent overshoot and that's about it. I set both RA and Dec to 0.015 min move, which translates at 1x guide rate to 0.23 arc sec. Right out of the gate the guide graph produced 0.1 to 0.14 arc sec RMS guiding and stars of very low eccentricities in a 10 minute exposure.

Theoretically both programs should produce the same results as far as RMS error, so perhaps I have not developed my expertise yet with PHD2. With all the variables at your disposal it appears that this program can be very effective for mounts that have problems such as high periodic error and large Dec backlash. With the Mach2 these are not an issue, PE is effectively zero, as is backlash. There was no wind and I was aimed near the zenith. Seeing was a 4 out of 5, not perfect but quite good for around here.

It would be interesting to know what settings others have used and why the Dec becomes totally unstable above 40% aggressiveness and RA becomes unstable above 60%. Very low settings of this parameter ends up costing a lot of time during dithering. with MaximDL it takes only one or two guide moves to come back to the zero line. With the 28% Dec in PHD2 it takes 5 to 7 moves.

Rolando





-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto
To: ap-gto
Sent: Mon, May 6, 2019 12:37 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the ap-gto
group.

  File        : /Mach2 Guide results/Mach2-Roundness-MaximDL-5-4-19.jpg
  Uploaded by : uncarollo2 <chris1011@...>
  Description : Comparison of Guiding with PHD2 versus MaximDL

You can access this file at the URL:

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:

Regards,

uncarollo2 <chris1011@...>


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Stephen Winston
 

Hi Roland,

>Turning on the guiding produced huge oscillations in both RA and Dec that could only be 
>tamed by setting the aggressiveness to a very low value. 
...
>Final setting were: 60% in RA with 0.1 pixel min-move (0.28 arc sec), 
>and 28% in Dec with a slightly larger min-move of 0.15 pixel (0.42 arc sec).

I'm not sure how good your seeing was, but triggering a correction on a 0.28 arc sec move of the guide star is pretty aggressive :).  I think you yourself have recommended in the past that the minmove be set to closer to your local seeing limits, to prevent the guider "chasing" the seeing - that is also what the PHD2 devs recommend.

That said, I have successfully guided my Mach-1 with min-moves of 0.45 arc-sec and with aggression set to the PHD2 defaults of 70% for RA and 100% for DEC.

You can find some of my sample guide logs here: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ap-gto/files/Steve_Winston/

But be warned(!), these logs also show the issues I reported last year with oscillations occurring in DEC.  In my case this only happens if the system was not balanced East heavy.  If I maintain an East heavy balance on my Mach-1, I can pretty much guide as aggressively as I want (tiny min-moves + 100% aggression) without causing oscillations, but I am of course just chasing the seeing with those settings and so my final results are no better.

Anyway, it would be interesting to see if using larger min-moves on your set-up would also allow using a larger aggression setting.

It would also be fascinating to compare the corrective guide pulses Maxim sends vs what PHD2 is sending.  From your results Maxim appears to be able to guide very aggressively, get a very impressive overall RMS, and yet not result in oscillations:  Is Maxim sending more frequent or fewer pulses than PHD2?  Is it sending longer or shorter pulses?  Some other reason?

Steve


Roland Christen
 

The seeing was quite good, amounting to less than 0.5 arc sec Pk. PHD2 runs thru a series of tests where it looks at a short unguided run to establish the baseline seeing and then adjusts the min-move accordingly. It was actually smaller than what I eventually used in Dec. Triggering a 0.28 arc sec move is very much routine when I use MaximDL because the action only produces 0.28 arc sec move command.

Aggressiveness of 100% in MaximDL means that a guide pulse of -1 arc sec is sent to the mount for a +1 arc sec error. Therefore a 1 arc sec excursion theoretically results in the star moving exactly back to the zero line. This may not be the case for PHD2. In fact it looked like in Dec that a 1 arc sec error produced approximately a 3 arcsec guide pulse. It wasn't until I dropped the gain (aggressiveness) under 33% that things stabilized.

In MaximDL you set the gain to 100% for a 100% move command. Of course that may result in some small overshoot because the error measurement was done at a short time before and the guide star might be in a different place the next time (but it never causes wild oscillations). So for practical settings I use 70 - 80% depending on seeing. If you go much longer, you will have issues with dithering - it takes longer to recover.

I was using the Lodestar guider in an off-axis configuration for my tests. It may be that using a short scope such as the 130GTX may be a limiting factor in how accurate the measurement is of the guide star position and rms guiding. I plan to test again with my 10" F14.5 Mak-Cass (3683mm FL) on the Mach2. I will be shooting at 0.3 arc sec per pixel and guiding at 0.47 arc sec per pixel at 1x1 binning with the Lodestar. I may bin it to 2x2 if there are no bright guide stars.

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: stephenjwinston@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto
Sent: Mon, May 6, 2019 3:13 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto



Hi Roland,

>Turning on the guiding produced huge oscillations in both RA and Dec that could only be 
>tamed by setting the aggressiveness to a very low value. 
...
>Final setting were: 60% in RA with 0.1 pixel min-move (0.28 arc sec), 
>and 28% in Dec with a slightly larger min-move of 0.15 pixel (0.42 arc sec).

I'm not sure how good your seeing was, but triggering a correction on a 0.28 arc sec move of the guide star is pretty aggressive :).  I think you yourself have recommended in the past that the minmove be set to closer to your local seeing limits, to prevent the guider "chasing" the seeing - that is also what the PHD2 devs recommend.

That said, I have successfully guided my Mach-1 with min-moves of 0.45 arc-sec and with aggression set to the PHD2 defaults of 70% for RA and 100% for DEC.

You can find some of my sample guide logs here: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ap-gto/files/Steve_Winston/

But be warned(!), these logs also show the issues I reported last year with oscillations occurring in DEC.  In my case this only happens if the system was not balanced East heavy.  If I maintain an East heavy balance on my Mach-1, I can pretty much guide as aggressively as I want (tiny min-moves + 100% aggression) without causing oscillations, but I am of course just chasing the seeing with those settings and so my final results are no better.

Anyway, it would be interesting to see if using larger min-moves on your set-up would also allow using a larger aggression setting.

It would also be fascinating to compare the corrective guide pulses Maxim sends vs what PHD2 is sending.  From your results Maxim appears to be able to guide very aggressively, get a very impressive overall RMS, and yet not result in oscillations:  Is Maxim sending more frequent or fewer pulses than PHD2?  Is it sending longer or shorter pulses?  Some other reason?

Steve




Roland Christen
 


So for practical settings I use 70 - 80% depending on seeing. If you go much longer, you will have issues with dithering - it takes longer to recover.
Correction: if you go much lower, you will have issues with dithering - it takes longer to recover.


-----Original Message-----
From: chris1011@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto
Sent: Mon, May 6, 2019 4:03 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto



The seeing was quite good, amounting to less than 0.5 arc sec Pk. PHD2 runs thru a series of tests where it looks at a short unguided run to establish the baseline seeing and then adjusts the min-move accordingly. It was actually smaller than what I eventually used in Dec. Triggering a 0.28 arc sec move is very much routine when I use MaximDL because the action only produces 0.28 arc sec move command.

Aggressiveness of 100% in MaximDL means that a guide pulse of -1 arc sec is sent to the mount for a +1 arc sec error. Therefore a 1 arc sec excursion theoretically results in the star moving exactly back to the zero line. This may not be the case for PHD2. In fact it looked like in Dec that a 1 arc sec error produced approximately a 3 arcsec guide pulse. It wasn't until I dropped the gain (aggressiveness) under 33% that things stabilized.

In MaximDL you set the gain to 100% for a 100% move command. Of course that may result in some small overshoot because the error measurement was done at a short time before and the guide star might be in a different place the next time (but it never causes wild oscillations). So for practical settings I use 70 - 80% depending on seeing. If you go much longer, you will have issues with dithering - it takes longer to recover.

I was using the Lodestar guider in an off-axis configuration for my tests. It may be that using a short scope such as the 130GTX may be a limiting factor in how accurate the measurement is of the guide star position and rms guiding. I plan to test again with my 10" F14.5 Mak-Cass (3683mm FL) on the Mach2. I will be shooting at 0.3 arc sec per pixel and guiding at 0.47 arc sec per pixel at 1x1 binning with the Lodestar. I may bin it to 2x2 if there are no bright guide stars.

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: stephenjwinston@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto
Sent: Mon, May 6, 2019 3:13 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto



Hi Roland,

>Turning on the guiding produced huge oscillations in both RA and Dec that could only be 
>tamed by setting the aggressiveness to a very low value. 
...
>Final setting were: 60% in RA with 0.1 pixel min-move (0.28 arc sec), 
>and 28% in Dec with a slightly larger min-move of 0.15 pixel (0.42 arc sec).

I'm not sure how good your seeing was, but triggering a correction on a 0.28 arc sec move of the guide star is pretty aggressive :).  I think you yourself have recommended in the past that the minmove be set to closer to your local seeing limits, to prevent the guider "chasing" the seeing - that is also what the PHD2 devs recommend.

That said, I have successfully guided my Mach-1 with min-moves of 0.45 arc-sec and with aggression set to the PHD2 defaults of 70% for RA and 100% for DEC.

You can find some of my sample guide logs here: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ap-gto/files/Steve_Winston/

But be warned(!), these logs also show the issues I reported last year with oscillations occurring in DEC.  In my case this only happens if the system was not balanced East heavy.  If I maintain an East heavy balance on my Mach-1, I can pretty much guide as aggressively as I want (tiny min-moves + 100% aggression) without causing oscillations, but I am of course just chasing the seeing with those settings and so my final results are no better.

Anyway, it would be interesting to see if using larger min-moves on your set-up would also allow using a larger aggression setting.

It would also be fascinating to compare the corrective guide pulses Maxim sends vs what PHD2 is sending.  From your results Maxim appears to be able to guide very aggressively, get a very impressive overall RMS, and yet not result in oscillations:  Is Maxim sending more frequent or fewer pulses than PHD2?  Is it sending longer or shorter pulses?  Some other reason?

Steve






Stephen Winston
 

>Aggressiveness of 100% in MaximDL means that a guide pulse of -1 arc sec is sent to the mount for a +1 arc sec error. ... This may not be the case for PHD2. 

My understanding is that it is the same in PHD2:  Setting aggressiveness to 100% means PHD2 will issue a guide correction equal to the detected error.

>In fact it looked like in Dec that a 1 arc sec error produced approximately a 3 arcsec guide pulse. 
>It wasn't until I dropped the gain (aggressiveness) under 33% that things stabilized. 

That shouldn't be the case (assuming no additional backlash compensation was enabled / being applied).  You'd have to look at the guide pulses in the ASCOM log to confirm what was actually issued.



Roland Christen
 


That shouldn't be the case (assuming no additional backlash compensation was enabled / being applied).
There was absolutely no backlash in the mount and no backlash was set in PHD. Part of the Guide assistant routine is to measure backlash, and it came out none and none was therefore set. I just looked at the settings on my laptop and backlash was definitely not set. The arc sec per pixel for the Lodestar is correct, so nothing wrong there. Calibration looked correct also. So, it is a complete mystery for now.

Rolando.


-----Original Message-----
From: stephenjwinston@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto
Sent: Mon, May 6, 2019 5:08 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto



>Aggressiveness of 100% in MaximDL means that a guide pulse of -1 arc sec is sent to the mount for a +1 arc sec error. ... This may not be the case for PHD2. 

My understanding is that it is the same in PHD2:  Setting aggressiveness to 100% means PHD2 will issue a guide correction equal to the detected error.

>In fact it looked like in Dec that a 1 arc sec error produced approximately a 3 arcsec guide pulse. 
>It wasn't until I dropped the gain (aggressiveness) under 33% that things stabilized. 

That shouldn't be the case (assuming no additional backlash compensation was enabled / being applied).  You'd have to look at the guide pulses in the ASCOM log to confirm what was actually issued.





Cheng-Yang Tan
 

Hi Rolando,
   I'm still experimenting with my AP1100AE with PHD2 settings and saw this on Saturday night. I'm glad that you may be seeing what I saw and I can confirm what you saw. Please see:


When I had DEC aggression set to 100%, the DEC behaviour is clearly very odd. Then I turned it off to see whether the seeing was that bad. Clearly not! I then set DEC aggression to 50% and it looked a lot better.

Perhaps its the absolute encoders and PHD2 DEC guiding not playing well together?

cytan


Roland Christen
 

Hi Cytan,

There is no way that the encoders have anything to do with causing Dec aggressiveness to behave this way. The encoders work perfectly with MaximDL at the proper settings of 100% aggressiveness.

And yes, you are getting the same instability as I was getting.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: cytan299@... [ap-gto] To: ap-gto
Sent: Mon, May 6, 2019 7:59 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto



Hi Rolando,
   I'm still experimenting with my AP1100AE with PHD2 settings and saw this on Saturday night. I'm glad that you may be seeing what I saw and I can confirm what you saw. Please see:


When I had DEC aggression set to 100%, the DEC behaviour is clearly very odd. Then I turned it off to see whether the seeing was that bad. Clearly not! I then set DEC aggression to 50% and it looked a lot better.

Perhaps its the absolute encoders and PHD2 DEC guiding not playing well together?

cytan



Bill Long
 

Hey Roland,

Did you try lowering the MxDEC value in PHD? That will allow you to change the maximum size of a correction, without changing the aggression. I use 2000 and have used 1500 in the past with good success. The default is 2500 and at 28% aggressiveness as you mentioned, it would only apply up to a 700 move. Maybe put the aggression back to 100% and set MxDEC to 1500?


From: ap-gto@... on behalf of chris1011@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2019 6:27 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto
 
 

Hi Cytan,

There is no way that the encoders have anything to do with causing Dec aggressiveness to behave this way. The encoders work perfectly with MaximDL at the proper settings of 100% aggressiveness.

And yes, you are getting the same instability as I was getting.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: cytan299@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...>
To: ap-gto
Sent: Mon, May 6, 2019 7:59 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto



Hi Rolando,
   I'm still experimenting with my AP1100AE with PHD2 settings and saw this on Saturday night. I'm glad that you may be seeing what I saw and I can confirm what you saw. Please see:


When I had DEC aggression set to 100%, the DEC behaviour is clearly very odd. Then I turned it off to see whether the seeing was that bad. Clearly not! I then set DEC aggression to 50% and it looked a lot better.

Perhaps its the absolute encoders and PHD2 DEC guiding not playing well together?

cytan



Stephen Winston
 

>The encoders work perfectly with MaximDL at the proper settings of 100% aggressiveness

The question is what size guide pulses is Maxim actually sending when set to 100% aggressiveness?  Is there an upper bound on the pulse it will send?

In PHD2 you can control set and control these variables (e.g. set different max pulse lengths for DEC and RA).

Again, I think the only way to really understand what is going on is to look at the ASCOM log and compare guide pulses sent by Maxim vs guide pulses sent by PHD2.  It's very likely that they are sending very different guide pulse patterns, and maybe Maxim is apply some internal throttling to prevent over corrections?



---In ap-gto@..., <chris1011@...> wrote :

Hi Cytan,

There is no way that the encoders have anything to do with causing Dec aggressiveness to behave this way. The encoders work perfectly with MaximDL at the proper settings of 100% aggressiveness.

And yes, you are getting the same instability as I was getting.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: cytan299@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...>
To: ap-gto <ap-gto@...>
Sent: Mon, May 6, 2019 7:59 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto



Hi Rolando,
   I'm still experimenting with my AP1100AE with PHD2 settings and saw this on Saturday night. I'm glad that you may be seeing what I saw and I can confirm what you saw. Please see:


When I had DEC aggression set to 100%, the DEC behaviour is clearly very odd. Then I turned it off to see whether the seeing was that bad. Clearly not! I then set DEC aggression to 50% and it looked a lot better.

Perhaps its the absolute encoders and PHD2 DEC guiding not playing well together?

cytan



Roland Christen
 

Max move doesn't come into play for small corrections on the order of 1 arc sec.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Long bill@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto@...
Sent: Mon, May 6, 2019 8:41 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto



Hey Roland,

Did you try lowering the MxDEC value in PHD? That will allow you to change the maximum size of a correction, without changing the aggression. I use 2000 and have used 1500 in the past with good success. The default is 2500 and at 28% aggressiveness as you mentioned, it would only apply up to a 700 move. Maybe put the aggression back to 100% and set MxDEC to 1500?


From: ap-gto@... on behalf of chris1011@... [ap-gto] Sent: Monday, May 6, 2019 6:27 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto
 
 
Hi Cytan,

There is no way that the encoders have anything to do with causing Dec aggressiveness to behave this way. The encoders work perfectly with MaximDL at the proper settings of 100% aggressiveness.

And yes, you are getting the same instability as I was getting.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: cytan299@... [ap-gto] To: ap-gto
Sent: Mon, May 6, 2019 7:59 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto



Hi Rolando,
   I'm still experimenting with my AP1100AE with PHD2 settings and saw this on Saturday night. I'm glad that you may be seeing what I saw and I can confirm what you saw. Please see:


When I had DEC aggression set to 100%, the DEC behaviour is clearly very odd. Then I turned it off to see whether the seeing was that bad. Clearly not! I then set DEC aggression to 50% and it looked a lot better.

Perhaps its the absolute encoders and PHD2 DEC guiding not playing well together?

cytan





Roland Christen
 


The question is what size guide pulses is Maxim actually sending when set to 100% aggressiveness?  Is there an upper bound on the pulse it will send?
We are talking about corrections on the order of 1 arc sec. Maxim will send exactly the size pulse equal to the error that it sees. So if the error is 1 arc sec, it will send thru ASCOM a 1 arc sec correction command (in the opposite direction to bring the star back to zero). If the error is 2 arc sec, it will send a 2 arc sec correction command. Max Move has no bearing whatsoever on the guider correction commands. You can set the Max Move to 1000 arc sec, and the action of guiding will NOT change one iota.

My max move settings in MaximDL are usually set at 7.5 arc sec and is amount of movement is never reached during normal guiding. The only time this comes into play is during dithering where you want the guide program to send a large correction on the order of 7.5 arc sec to bring the guide star back to the zero line. That's because during dithering you are actually moving the scope to a new location anywhere from 5 to 20 arc sec randomly, in order to not keep the stars on the same pixel. Then the guider must quickly move the guide star back to the zero line and that will take forever if the gain (aggress) is low and the MoxMove is small.

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: stephenjwinston@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto
Sent: Mon, May 6, 2019 8:57 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto



>The encoders work perfectly with MaximDL at the proper settings of 100% aggressiveness

The question is what size guide pulses is Maxim actually sending when set to 100% aggressiveness?  Is there an upper bound on the pulse it will send?

In PHD2 you can control set and control these variables (e.g. set different max pulse lengths for DEC and RA).

Again, I think the only way to really understand what is going on is to look at the ASCOM log and compare guide pulses sent by Maxim vs guide pulses sent by PHD2.  It's very likely that they are sending very different guide pulse patterns, and maybe Maxim is apply some internal throttling to prevent over corrections?



---In ap-gto@..., wrote :

Hi Cytan,

There is no way that the encoders have anything to do with causing Dec aggressiveness to behave this way. The encoders work perfectly with MaximDL at the proper settings of 100% aggressiveness.

And yes, you are getting the same instability as I was getting.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: cytan299@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto
Sent: Mon, May 6, 2019 7:59 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto



Hi Rolando,
   I'm still experimenting with my AP1100AE with PHD2 settings and saw this on Saturday night. I'm glad that you may be seeing what I saw and I can confirm what you saw. Please see:


When I had DEC aggression set to 100%, the DEC behaviour is clearly very odd. Then I turned it off to see whether the seeing was that bad. Clearly not! I then set DEC aggression to 50% and it looked a lot better.

Perhaps its the absolute encoders and PHD2 DEC guiding not playing well together?

cytan





Bill Long
 

Adding Andy Glasso to the thread here. There has got to be a way to set PHD2 to work similarly to your experience with MaximDL.


From: ap-gto@... on behalf of chris1011@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2019 7:00 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto
 
 

Max move doesn't come into play for small corrections on the order of 1 arc sec.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Long bill@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto@... <ap-gto@...>
Sent: Mon, May 6, 2019 8:41 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto



Hey Roland,

Did you try lowering the MxDEC value in PHD? That will allow you to change the maximum size of a correction, without changing the aggression. I use 2000 and have used 1500 in the past with good success. The default is 2500 and at 28% aggressiveness as you mentioned, it would only apply up to a 700 move. Maybe put the aggression back to 100% and set MxDEC to 1500?


From: ap-gto@... on behalf of chris1011@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2019 6:27 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto
 
 
Hi Cytan,

There is no way that the encoders have anything to do with causing Dec aggressiveness to behave this way. The encoders work perfectly with MaximDL at the proper settings of 100% aggressiveness.

And yes, you are getting the same instability as I was getting.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: cytan299@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto
Sent: Mon, May 6, 2019 7:59 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto



Hi Rolando,
   I'm still experimenting with my AP1100AE with PHD2 settings and saw this on Saturday night. I'm glad that you may be seeing what I saw and I can confirm what you saw. Please see:


When I had DEC aggression set to 100%, the DEC behaviour is clearly very odd. Then I turned it off to see whether the seeing was that bad. Clearly not! I then set DEC aggression to 50% and it looked a lot better.

Perhaps its the absolute encoders and PHD2 DEC guiding not playing well together?

cytan





Ray Gralak
 

What's interesting about this discussion is that "PHD" is supposed to be simple to use, but I think the PHD2 developers lost track
of that by adding too many features and knobs.

Now, MaximDL is the easy tool to use. And, apparently MaximDL works better.

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2019 8:34 PM
To: ap-gto@...; andy.galasso@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto



Adding Andy Glasso to the thread here. There has got to be a way to set PHD2 to work similarly to your experience
with MaximDL.

________________________________

From: ap-gto@... <ap-gto@...> on behalf of chris1011@... [ap-gto] <ap-
gto@...>
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2019 7:00 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto



Max move doesn't come into play for small corrections on the order of 1 arc sec.


Rolando




-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Long bill@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...>
To: ap-gto@... <ap-gto@...>
Sent: Mon, May 6, 2019 8:41 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto




Hey Roland,

Did you try lowering the MxDEC value in PHD? That will allow you to change the maximum size of a correction,
without changing the aggression. I use 2000 and have used 1500 in the past with good success. The default is 2500
and at 28% aggressiveness as you mentioned, it would only apply up to a 700 move. Maybe put the aggression
back to 100% and set MxDEC to 1500?

________________________________

From: ap-gto@... <ap-gto@...> on behalf of chris1011@... [ap-gto] <ap-
gto@...>
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2019 6:27 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto


Hi Cytan,


There is no way that the encoders have anything to do with causing Dec aggressiveness to behave this way. The
encoders work perfectly with MaximDL at the proper settings of 100% aggressiveness.


And yes, you are getting the same instability as I was getting.



Rolando




-----Original Message-----
From: cytan299@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...>
To: ap-gto <ap-gto@...>
Sent: Mon, May 6, 2019 7:59 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto




Hi Rolando,
I'm still experimenting with my AP1100AE with PHD2 settings and saw this on Saturday night. I'm glad that you
may be seeing what I saw and I can confirm what you saw. Please see:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ap-
gto/files/AP1100AE%20and%20PHD2%20DEC%20settings%20%28weird%20behavior%29/
<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.yahoo.com%2Fneo%2Fgroups%2F
ap-
gto%2Ffiles%2FAP1100AE%2520and%2520PHD2%2520DEC%2520settings%2520%2528weird%2520behavior%
2529%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf4ceac89efaf44e58d0d08d6d2901818%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaa
a%7C1%7C0%7C636927913648814470&sdata=wxgXrSHNJhXmMmp2cw3E77gpgZE34mu8DF%2BVoqf5%2BH
Y%3D&reserved=0>


When I had DEC aggression set to 100%, the DEC behaviour is clearly very odd. Then I turned it off to see whether
the seeing was that bad. Clearly not! I then set DEC aggression to 50% and it looked a lot better.

Perhaps its the absolute encoders and PHD2 DEC guiding not playing well together?

cytan






Stephen Winston
 

Well, you do need to spend $499 on Maxim DL Pro to get guiding + dithering, which you get for free in PHD2, so there is that...



Bill Long
 

If only SkyX guiding wasnt a puzzle to figure out with non-Paramounts.... 


From: ap-gto@... on behalf of 'Ray Gralak (Groups)' groups3@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2019 8:48 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: RE: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto
 
 

What's interesting about this discussion is that "PHD" is supposed to be simple to use, but I think the PHD2 developers lost track
of that by adding too many features and knobs.

Now, MaximDL is the easy tool to use. And, apparently MaximDL works better.

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
> Sent: Monday, May 6, 2019 8:34 PM
> To: ap-gto@...; andy.galasso@...
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto
>
>
>
> Adding Andy Glasso to the thread here. There has got to be a way to set PHD2 to work similarly to your experience
> with MaximDL.
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: ap-gto@... > gto@...>
> Sent: Monday, May 6, 2019 7:00 PM
> To: ap-gto@...
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto
>
>
>
> Max move doesn't come into play for small corrections on the order of 1 arc sec.
>
>
> Rolando
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Long bill@... [ap-gto]
> To: ap-gto@...
> Sent: Mon, May 6, 2019 8:41 pm
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto
>
>
>
>
> Hey Roland,
>
> Did you try lowering the MxDEC value in PHD? That will allow you to change the maximum size of a correction,
> without changing the aggression. I use 2000 and have used 1500 in the past with good success. The default is 2500
> and at 28% aggressiveness as you mentioned, it would only apply up to a 700 move. Maybe put the aggression
> back to 100% and set MxDEC to 1500?
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: ap-gto@... on behalf of chris1011@... [ap-gto] > gto@...>
> Sent: Monday, May 6, 2019 6:27 PM
> To: ap-gto@...
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto
>
>
> Hi Cytan,
>
>
> There is no way that the encoders have anything to do with causing Dec aggressiveness to behave this way. The
> encoders work perfectly with MaximDL at the proper settings of 100% aggressiveness.
>
>
> And yes, you are getting the same instability as I was getting.
>
>
>
> Rolando
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cytan299@... [ap-gto]
> To: ap-gto
> Sent: Mon, May 6, 2019 7:59 pm
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto
>
>
>
>
> Hi Rolando,
> I'm still experimenting with my AP1100AE with PHD2 settings and saw this on Saturday night. I'm glad that you
> may be seeing what I saw and I can confirm what you saw. Please see:
>
> https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ap-
> gto/files/AP1100AE%20and%20PHD2%20DEC%20settings%20%28weird%20behavior%29/
> > ap-
> gto%2Ffiles%2FAP1100AE%2520and%2520PHD2%2520DEC%2520settings%2520%2528weird%2520behavior%
> 2529%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf4ceac89efaf44e58d0d08d6d2901818%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaa
> a%7C1%7C0%7C636927913648814470&sdata=wxgXrSHNJhXmMmp2cw3E77gpgZE34mu8DF%2BVoqf5%2BH
> Y%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
> When I had DEC aggression set to 100%, the DEC behaviour is clearly very odd. Then I turned it off to see whether
> the seeing was that bad. Clearly not! I then set DEC aggression to 50% and it looked a lot better.
>
> Perhaps its the absolute encoders and PHD2 DEC guiding not playing well together?
>
> cytan
>
>
>
>
>
>


Ray Gralak
 

Well, you do need to spend $499 on Maxim DL Pro to get guiding + dithering, which you get
for free in PHD2, so there is that...
That's not even close to all that Maxim does. But if we're talking about autoguiding, then the goal of that kind of software is to create the sharpest images possible with our equipment. MaximDL may be the winner there... easier to use out of the box and better results.

However, I am sure some people are willing to compromise image quality for $500.

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2019 8:56 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: RE: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto



Well, you do need to spend $499 on Maxim DL Pro to get guiding + dithering, which you get for free in PHD2, so
there is that...




Cheng-Yang Tan
 

Let's try something that is not way off left field about PHD2: there may be a bug.

I looked at the source code:


The member function that does the dirty work is 

double GuideAlgorithmResistSwitch::result(double input)

Unfortunately, I don't see anything obviously wrong with the ResistSwitch algorithm right now. It looks like the ResistSwitch algorithm just takes the input (which I assume is the error) and multiplies it by the aggression setting and returns it back to the caller.

cytan


On Monday, May 6, 2019, 10:48:12 PM CDT, 'Ray Gralak (Groups)' groups3@... [ap-gto] wrote:


 

What's interesting about this discussion is that "PHD" is supposed to be simple to use, but I think the PHD2 developers lost track
of that by adding too many features and knobs.

Now, MaximDL is the easy tool to use. And, apparently MaximDL works better.

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
> Sent: Monday, May 6, 2019 8:34 PM
> To: ap-gto@...; andy.galasso@...
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto
>
>
>
> Adding Andy Glasso to the thread here. There has got to be a way to set PHD2 to work similarly to your experience
> with MaximDL.
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: ap-gto@... <ap-gto@...> on behalf of chris1011@... [ap-gto] > gto@...>
> Sent: Monday, May 6, 2019 7:00 PM
> To: ap-gto@...
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto
>
>
>
> Max move doesn't come into play for small corrections on the order of 1 arc sec.
>
>
> Rolando
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Long bill@... [ap-gto]
> To: ap-gto@...
> Sent: Mon, May 6, 2019 8:41 pm
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto
>
>
>
>
> Hey Roland,
>
> Did you try lowering the MxDEC value in PHD? That will allow you to change the maximum size of a correction,
> without changing the aggression. I use 2000 and have used 1500 in the past with good success. The default is 2500
> and at 28% aggressiveness as you mentioned, it would only apply up to a 700 move. Maybe put the aggression
> back to 100% and set MxDEC to 1500?
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: ap-gto@... on behalf of chris1011@... [ap-gto] > gto@...>
> Sent: Monday, May 6, 2019 6:27 PM
> To: ap-gto@...
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto
>
>
> Hi Cytan,
>
>
> There is no way that the encoders have anything to do with causing Dec aggressiveness to behave this way. The
> encoders work perfectly with MaximDL at the proper settings of 100% aggressiveness.
>
>
> And yes, you are getting the same instability as I was getting.
>
>
>
> Rolando
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cytan299@... [ap-gto]
> To: ap-gto
> Sent: Mon, May 6, 2019 7:59 pm
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto
>
>
>
>
> Hi Rolando,
> I'm still experimenting with my AP1100AE with PHD2 settings and saw this on Saturday night. I'm glad that you
> may be seeing what I saw and I can confirm what you saw. Please see:
>
> https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ap-
> gto/files/AP1100AE%20and%20PHD2%20DEC%20settings%20%28weird%20behavior%29/
> > ap-
> gto%2Ffiles%2FAP1100AE%2520and%2520PHD2%2520DEC%2520settings%2520%2528weird%2520behavior%
> 2529%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf4ceac89efaf44e58d0d08d6d2901818%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaa
> a%7C1%7C0%7C636927913648814470&sdata=wxgXrSHNJhXmMmp2cw3E77gpgZE34mu8DF%2BVoqf5%2BH
> Y%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
> When I had DEC aggression set to 100%, the DEC behaviour is clearly very odd. Then I turned it off to see whether
> the seeing was that bad. Clearly not! I then set DEC aggression to 50% and it looked a lot better.
>
> Perhaps its the absolute encoders and PHD2 DEC guiding not playing well together?
>
> cytan
>
>
>
>
>
>


Ray Gralak
 

Hi Cytan,

Let's try something that is not way off left field about PHD2: there may be a bug.
I'm pretty sure there are bugs in both MaximDL and PHD2. Almost every non-trivial program has bugs.

But, even if there is a bug and if PHD2 guided better than MaximDL, my point was that I think PHD2 has stepped away from its roots. The goal of the initial version was to be simple to operate... and the original version was. I think PHD2 has become more complicated than it needs to be, maybe because it's open source and many of the people making the changes each had their own ideas on how autoguiding *should* work.

The developers behind MaximDL have been doing this for 25+ years. They have gathered experience using numerous mount types and operating under a wide range of field conditions. Because the product is commercial they had resources to buy test equipment like cameras and mounts and hire people to test/develop.

But, as I said previously, I am sure many (most?) are willing to save $500 for software even if it compromises ease of use and performance.

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2019 4:14 AM
To: 'Ray Gralak (Groups)' groups3@... [ap-gto]
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto



Let's try something that is not way off left field about PHD2: there may be a bug.

I looked at the source code:

https://github.com/OpenPHDGuiding/phd2/blob/master/guide_algorithm_resistswitch.cpp


The member function that does the dirty work is


double GuideAlgorithmResistSwitch::result(double input)


Unfortunately, I don't see anything obviously wrong with the ResistSwitch algorithm right now. It looks like the
ResistSwitch algorithm just takes the input (which I assume is the error) and multiplies it by the aggression setting
and returns it back to the caller.

cytan


On Monday, May 6, 2019, 10:48:12 PM CDT, 'Ray Gralak (Groups)' groups3@... [ap-gto] <ap-
gto@...> wrote:




What's interesting about this discussion is that "PHD" is supposed to be simple to use, but I think the PHD2
developers lost track
of that by adding too many features and knobs.

Now, MaximDL is the easy tool to use. And, apparently MaximDL works better.

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): http://www.astro-
physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2019 8:34 PM
To: ap-gto@...; andy.galasso@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto



Adding Andy Glasso to the thread here. There has got to be a way to set PHD2 to work similarly to your
experience
with MaximDL.

________________________________

From: ap-gto@... <ap-gto@...> on behalf of chris1011@... [ap-gto] <ap-
gto@...>
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2019 7:00 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto



Max move doesn't come into play for small corrections on the order of 1 arc sec.


Rolando




-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Long bill@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...>
To: ap-gto@... <ap-gto@...>
Sent: Mon, May 6, 2019 8:41 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto




Hey Roland,

Did you try lowering the MxDEC value in PHD? That will allow you to change the maximum size of a correction,
without changing the aggression. I use 2000 and have used 1500 in the past with good success. The default is
2500
and at 28% aggressiveness as you mentioned, it would only apply up to a 700 move. Maybe put the aggression
back to 100% and set MxDEC to 1500?

________________________________

From: ap-gto@... <ap-gto@...> on behalf of chris1011@... [ap-gto] <ap-
gto@...>
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2019 6:27 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto


Hi Cytan,


There is no way that the encoders have anything to do with causing Dec aggressiveness to behave this way. The
encoders work perfectly with MaximDL at the proper settings of 100% aggressiveness.


And yes, you are getting the same instability as I was getting.



Rolando




-----Original Message-----
From: cytan299@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...>
To: ap-gto <ap-gto@...>
Sent: Mon, May 6, 2019 7:59 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New file uploaded to ap-gto




Hi Rolando,
I'm still experimenting with my AP1100AE with PHD2 settings and saw this on Saturday night. I'm glad that you
may be seeing what I saw and I can confirm what you saw. Please see:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ap-
gto/files/AP1100AE%20and%20PHD2%20DEC%20settings%20%28weird%20behavior%29/
<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.yahoo.com%2Fneo%2Fgroups%2F
ap-
gto%2Ffiles%2FAP1100AE%2520and%2520PHD2%2520DEC%2520settings%2520%2528weird%2520behavior%
2529%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf4ceac89efaf44e58d0d08d6d2901818%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaa
a%7C1%7C0%7C636927913648814470&sdata=wxgXrSHNJhXmMmp2cw3E77gpgZE34mu8DF%2BVoqf5%2BH
Y%3D&reserved=0>


When I had DEC aggression set to 100%, the DEC behaviour is clearly very odd. Then I turned it off to see
whether
the seeing was that bad. Clearly not! I then set DEC aggression to 50% and it looked a lot better.

Perhaps its the absolute encoders and PHD2 DEC guiding not playing well together?

cytan