Slow Response through APCC


Jack Huerkamp
 

I have an AP1600 mount that I purchased in February of 2015.  Initially it had the CP3 controller and I purchased the GTOCP4 when it became available.  

I purchased APCC (Standard V1.6.0.4 currently installed) and I control the mount via SkyTools using the top RS232 port on the CP4 unit.

I am using the APV2 Driver v5.10.0.2.

Last night I was using the mount and scope and had no issues with controlling them via SkyTools.

Today I decided to do some solar, started the mount and APCC, connected to SkyTools and started my astronomical camera.  I was observing the Sun on the monitor, but noted that there was a 5 to 7 second delay between depressing a direction button in APCC and seeing the Sun move on the monitor.  The same delay occurred if I pressed one of the direction buttons on the AP handbox.

I took the camera out and installed the eyepiece in the solar scope.  Using the AP handbox direction buttons resulted in instantaneous movement of the Sun in the eyepiece.

BTW the computer is a Dell XPS Tower running W10PRO.  It has 32GB of RAM and an i7 processor.

What would cause the delay as seen via computer control - a delay that did not exist last night?

Should I look at an alternative method of connecting the mount to the computer that will provide better response?

Yours truly,

Jack Huerkamp



Ray Gralak
 

Hi Jack,

It sounds like something related to the camera because when you tried moving the mount with the keypad it appeared slow on the monitor but not actually slow through the eyepiece.

If you can be near the telescope while pressing the move buttons try changing the move speed to something faster so you can see/hear the mount move. Then, try pressing the buttons with the camera on to see what kind of delay there is.

If this is a video camera it could be maxing the bandwidth of the cable connection to your computer, or the computer software application is not able to process the video fast enough.

What is the resolution of the camera?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 1:37 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: [ap-gto] Slow Response through APCC



I have an AP1600 mount that I purchased in February of 2015. Initially it had the CP3 controller and I purchased
the GTOCP4 when it became available.

I purchased APCC (Standard V1.6.0.4 currently installed) and I control the mount via SkyTools using the top
RS232 port on the CP4 unit.

I am using the APV2 Driver v5.10.0.2.

Last night I was using the mount and scope and had no issues with controlling them via SkyTools.

Today I decided to do some solar, started the mount and APCC, connected to SkyTools and started my
astronomical camera. I was observing the Sun on the monitor, but noted that there was a 5 to 7 second delay
between depressing a direction button in APCC and seeing the Sun move on the monitor. The same delay
occurred if I pressed one of the direction buttons on the AP handbox.

I took the camera out and installed the eyepiece in the solar scope. Using the AP handbox direction buttons
resulted in instantaneous movement of the Sun in the eyepiece.

BTW the computer is a Dell XPS Tower running W10PRO. It has 32GB of RAM and an i7 processor.

What would cause the delay as seen via computer control - a delay that did not exist last night?

Should I look at an alternative method of connecting the mount to the computer that will provide better response?

Yours truly,

Jack Huerkamp






Joe Zeglinski
 

Jack,
 
    Perhaps you got caught in a Win-10 Update, which can take a tremendous amount of time,  especially with small sized memory.
 
    You may already know about this, but let me repeat anyway. To determine what is going on – if the system is still currently running slow – right click on the task bar (or,  enter CTRL-ALT-DEL), and choose TASK MANAGER. You may need to click on “More Details” option box, to get a tabs oriented display. Then click the “Performance” tab, to see exactly WHAT is tied up – most likely DISK. but may be MEMORY.
 
    You can then click on the “Processes” tab and on one of the columns headings (like DISK) to sort it high-to low, and see which process/program is causing the most overhead. Check if it happens to be a locked-up APCC, though I doubt that.
If it is not a Win-10 related Update, Search update, or virus scan, etc. you can try to right click the suspected “locked”  process and choose to “End Task”, to see if APCC then returns to normal.
 
HTH,
Joe


Jack Huerkamp
 

Ray,

 

It is a 10.7MP MallinCam DS10c (4096 X 2160 resolution).

 

I have used this camera on the mount for months without issue.  Like I said I did a broadcast last night using the camera and a different camera with a 16MP sensor (4640 X 3506 resolution) - swapping from one to the other without issue.  It was only today when I started up the system to do some solar observing did I notice the delay.  I will go back out to the observatory and try what you suggest.

 

Yours truly,

 

Jack

 

Jack Huerkamp

Jack's Astro Accessories, LLC.

38388 Pine Street

Pearl River, LA 70452

985-445-5063 (Mobile)

mallincamusa@...

www.mallincamusa.com

 

 

From: ap-gto@...
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 4:04 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: RE: [ap-gto] Slow Response through APCC

 

 

Hi Jack,

It sounds like something related to the camera because when you tried moving the mount with the keypad it appeared slow on the monitor but not actually slow through the eyepiece.

If you can be near the telescope while pressing the move buttons try changing the move speed to something faster so you can see/hear the mount move. Then, try pressing the buttons with the camera on to see what kind of delay there is.

If this is a video camera it could be maxing the bandwidth of the cable connection to your computer, or the computer software application is not able to process the video fast enough.

What is the resolution of the camera?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
> Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 1:37 PM
> To: ap-gto@...
> Subject: [ap-gto] Slow Response through APCC
>
>
>
> I have an AP1600 mount that I purchased in February of 2015. Initially it had the CP3 controller and I purchased
> the GTOCP4 when it became available.
>
> I purchased APCC (Standard V1.6.0.4 currently installed) and I control the mount via SkyTools using the top
> RS232 port on the CP4 unit.
>
> I am using the APV2 Driver v5.10.0.2.
>
> Last night I was using the mount and scope and had no issues with controlling them via SkyTools.
>
> Today I decided to do some solar, started the mount and APCC, connected to SkyTools and started my
> astronomical camera. I was observing the Sun on the monitor, but noted that there was a 5 to 7 second delay
> between depressing a direction button in APCC and seeing the Sun move on the monitor. The same delay
> occurred if I pressed one of the direction buttons on the AP handbox.
>
> I took the camera out and installed the eyepiece in the solar scope. Using the AP handbox direction buttons
> resulted in instantaneous movement of the Sun in the eyepiece.
>
> BTW the computer is a Dell XPS Tower running W10PRO. It has 32GB of RAM and an i7 processor.
>
> What would cause the delay as seen via computer control - a delay that did not exist last night?
>
> Should I look at an alternative method of connecting the mount to the computer that will provide better response?
>
> Yours truly,
>
> Jack Huerkamp
>
>
>
>
>
>




AVG logo

This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com



Jack Huerkamp
 

Joe,

 

Going back to the observatory to try what you suggest.

 

Thanks.

 

Jack

 

Jack Huerkamp

Jack's Astro Accessories, LLC.

38388 Pine Street

Pearl River, LA 70452

985-445-5063 (Mobile)

mallincamusa@...

www.mallincamusa.com

 

 

 

From: ap-gto@...
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 4:05 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Slow Response through APCC

 

 

Jack,

 

    Perhaps you got caught in a Win-10 Update, which can take a tremendous amount of time,  especially with small sized memory.

 

    You may already know about this, but let me repeat anyway. To determine what is going on – if the system is still currently running slow – right click on the task bar (or,  enter CTRL-ALT-DEL), and choose TASK MANAGER. You may need to click on “More Details” option box, to get a tabs oriented display. Then click the “Performance” tab, to see exactly WHAT is tied up – most likely DISK. but may be MEMORY.

 

    You can then click on the “Processes” tab and on one of the columns headings (like DISK) to sort it high-to low, and see which process/program is causing the most overhead. Check if it happens to be a locked-up APCC, though I doubt that.

If it is not a Win-10 related Update, Search update, or virus scan, etc. you can try to right click the suspected “locked”  process and choose to “End Task”, to see if APCC then returns to normal.

 

HTH,

Joe




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This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com



Jack Huerkamp
 

Ray,

 

It is most definitely the 10.7MP camera that is causing the problem.  When I hit the direction buttons in APCC, I hear the mount move and after 5+ seconds, the display catches up.  I changed to the 16MP camera and the movement on the screen was instantaneous.  There is something in the memory management in the 10.7 MP camera that is causing the lag.

 

The programmers for the camera software issued an update on the 18th.  Obviously there is an issue with the coding for this camera.

 

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

Jack

 

Jack Huerkamp

Jack's Astro Accessories, LLC.

38388 Pine Street

Pearl River, LA 70452

985-445-5063 (Mobile)

mallincamusa@...

www.mallincamusa.com

 

 

 

From: ap-gto@...
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 4:04 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: RE: [ap-gto] Slow Response through APCC

 

 

Hi Jack,

It sounds like something related to the camera because when you tried moving the mount with the keypad it appeared slow on the monitor but not actually slow through the eyepiece.

If you can be near the telescope while pressing the move buttons try changing the move speed to something faster so you can see/hear the mount move. Then, try pressing the buttons with the camera on to see what kind of delay there is.

If this is a video camera it could be maxing the bandwidth of the cable connection to your computer, or the computer software application is not able to process the video fast enough.

What is the resolution of the camera?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
> Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 1:37 PM
> To: ap-gto@...
> Subject: [ap-gto] Slow Response through APCC
>
>
>
> I have an AP1600 mount that I purchased in February of 2015. Initially it had the CP3 controller and I purchased
> the GTOCP4 when it became available.
>
> I purchased APCC (Standard V1.6.0.4 currently installed) and I control the mount via SkyTools using the top
> RS232 port on the CP4 unit.
>
> I am using the APV2 Driver v5.10.0.2.
>
> Last night I was using the mount and scope and had no issues with controlling them via SkyTools.
>
> Today I decided to do some solar, started the mount and APCC, connected to SkyTools and started my
> astronomical camera. I was observing the Sun on the monitor, but noted that there was a 5 to 7 second delay
> between depressing a direction button in APCC and seeing the Sun move on the monitor. The same delay
> occurred if I pressed one of the direction buttons on the AP handbox.
>
> I took the camera out and installed the eyepiece in the solar scope. Using the AP handbox direction buttons
> resulted in instantaneous movement of the Sun in the eyepiece.
>
> BTW the computer is a Dell XPS Tower running W10PRO. It has 32GB of RAM and an i7 processor.
>
> What would cause the delay as seen via computer control - a delay that did not exist last night?
>
> Should I look at an alternative method of connecting the mount to the computer that will provide better response?
>
> Yours truly,
>
> Jack Huerkamp
>
>
>
>
>
>




AVG logo

This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com



Jack Huerkamp
 

Joe,

 

It is not a W10 related fiasco.  It has to do with the recently updated software for the cameras.  The 10.7MP is causing the lag in the display.  When I changed to a higher resolution 16MP camera there was no lag.  I will have to alert the camera software programmers of the issue.

 

BTW, MallinCamSky, the camera control program was utilizing 14.6% of the 16% CPU usage with the 10.7MP camera running.  CPU usage was very low with the 16MP camera using the same camera control software. 

 

The camera programmers will have to address the memory management issues with the 10.7MP camera.

 

Thank you for your quick response.

 

Yours truly,

 

Jack

 

Jack Huerkamp

Jack's Astro Accessories, LLC.

38388 Pine Street

Pearl River, LA 70452

985-445-5063 (Mobile)

mallincamusa@...

www.mallincamusa.com

 

 

 

From: ap-gto@...
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 4:05 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Slow Response through APCC

 

 

Jack,

 

    Perhaps you got caught in a Win-10 Update, which can take a tremendous amount of time,  especially with small sized memory.

 

    You may already know about this, but let me repeat anyway. To determine what is going on – if the system is still currently running slow – right click on the task bar (or,  enter CTRL-ALT-DEL), and choose TASK MANAGER. You may need to click on “More Details” option box, to get a tabs oriented display. Then click the “Performance” tab, to see exactly WHAT is tied up – most likely DISK. but may be MEMORY.

 

    You can then click on the “Processes” tab and on one of the columns headings (like DISK) to sort it high-to low, and see which process/program is causing the most overhead. Check if it happens to be a locked-up APCC, though I doubt that.

If it is not a Win-10 related Update, Search update, or virus scan, etc. you can try to right click the suspected “locked”  process and choose to “End Task”, to see if APCC then returns to normal.

 

HTH,

Joe




AVG logo

This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com



Joe Zeglinski
 

Jack,
 
    Glad you found the source of the problem.
 
    However, I am curious about the USB channels used with each camera. Are both cameras USB-2 or is the higher res camera a USB-3. Perhaps there is  a data transmission  bottleneck. Please confirm whether their USB level, and whether they share a common USB stream to the PC. Also, if your PC has a USB-3 port, ALL of the attached accessories sharing a USB-3 hub, and USB-3 the PC host port,  would work much better with far less data contention on such a link, especially if there is a mix of USB-2 and USB-3 devices in that loop. That’s because a USB-3 camera wouldn’t have to wait for the common port to the PC to become free of any “concurrent” or pending USB-2 traffic, since USB-3 channels are “bi-directional”, unlike two-way alternate USB-2 hogging the common line. Its also the same reason that Ethernet connections are faster than WiFi.
 
   In the long term - even if you have mostly USB-2 accessories sharing a hub – assuming you don’t have the camera on its own dedicated USB-2 channel – it would be wise to change any USB-2 loop to a USB-3 which does a far better job of coexisting with slower accessories.
 
    USB-3 speed owes a lot to its ability to timeshare the data line to the PC.
 
Joe


Dale Ghent
 

USB 3.0 SuperSpeed (up to 5Gb/s) uses its own set of physical wires for full-duplex tx+rx. These are completely separate from the single pair used by USB 1.1 and 2.0 devices, which are limited to half-duplex communication as a result. Thus, USB 3.0 SS data doesn't timeshare _at all_ with devices on the same bus which adhere to earlier standards.

There are, however, *hub controller* contention issues regarding USB 1.1 devices being plugged into USB 2.0 ports. With USB 1.1 operating at 12Mb/s, and USB 2.0 up to 480Mb/s, the hub controller needs to be able to take the 1.1 signaling and integrate it into the 2.0 signaling before sending it upstream. Logically, this is done by what's called a Transaction Translator (TT). TTs are allocated to the downstream ports, and the most simplistic of hub controllers implement a *single* TT. This single TT is shared amongst all downstream devices, and as you might predict, this creates a processing bottleneck. More performant hub controller implement multiple TTs, usually with one per downstream port. This means that bottlenecks created by a mix of downstream 1.1 and 2.0 devices are completely minimized. As explained above, USB 3.0 devices don't see any of this - they have their own data signaling wires to start with.

So, in summary, USB 3.0+ hubs can be thought of two USB hubs in one, although it looks like one physical unit. The controller chips which comprise a USB 3 hub can be broken into two main logic areas, or PHYs: one servicing USB 1.1 and 2.0 devices using one or more TTs, and the other servicing USB 3.0+ devices. This is possible because USB 3.0 devices which are connected to the hub use their own separate wires. USB 1.1/2.0 devices are on their own, with any bottlenecks governed by how many TTs are available as explained above. This also explains why you can generally use a USB 3.0 hub on a system which only has USB 2.0 ports - the USB 3.0 portion just goes unused as unrecognized by the host.

On my setups and because astronomy gear tends to be a menagerie of USB 1.1, 2.0, and 3.0 devices, I make sure to use USB hubs which incorporate controllers which feature multi-TTs. One example of these is the StarTech ST7300U3M hub, which uses the ASMedia ASM1074 controller.

/dale

On Oct 28, 2018, at 9:40 PM, 'Joseph Zeglinski' J.Zeglinski@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...> wrote:



Jack,

Glad you found the source of the problem.

However, I am curious about the USB channels used with each camera. Are both cameras USB-2 or is the higher res camera a USB-3. Perhaps there is a data transmission bottleneck. Please confirm whether their USB level, and whether they share a common USB stream to the PC. Also, if your PC has a USB-3 port, ALL of the attached accessories sharing a USB-3 hub, and USB-3 the PC host port, would work much better with far less data contention on such a link, especially if there is a mix of USB-2 and USB-3 devices in that loop. That’s because a USB-3 camera wouldn’t have to wait for the common port to the PC to become free of any “concurrent” or pending USB-2 traffic, since USB-3 channels are “bi-directional”, unlike two-way alternate USB-2 hogging the common line. Its also the same reason that Ethernet connections are faster than WiFi.

In the long term - even if you have mostly USB-2 accessories sharing a hub – assuming you don’t have the camera on its own dedicated USB-2 channel – it would be wise to change any USB-2 loop to a USB-3 which does a far better job of coexisting with slower accessories.

USB-3 speed owes a lot to its ability to timeshare the data line to the PC.

Joe



Christopher Erickson
 

Excellent information.

It could also possibly be related to having a mixture of admin/normal &
64/32 bit programs running and how Windoze locks/unlocks memory and storage
devices when old and new programs with different privileges are sharing
resources.


-Christopher Erickson
Observatory engineer
Summit Kinetics
Waikoloa, HI 96738
www.summitkinetics.com

-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 9:01 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Slow Response through APCC


USB 3.0 SuperSpeed (up to 5Gb/s) uses its own set of physical wires for
full-duplex tx+rx. These are completely separate from the single pair used
by USB 1.1 and 2.0 devices, which are limited to half-duplex communication
as a result. Thus, USB 3.0 SS data doesn't timeshare _at all_ with devices
on the same bus which adhere to earlier standards.

There are, however, *hub controller* contention issues regarding USB 1.1
devices being plugged into USB 2.0 ports. With USB 1.1 operating at 12Mb/s,
and USB 2.0 up to 480Mb/s, the hub controller needs to be able to take the
1..1 signaling and integrate it into the 2.0 signaling before sending it
upstream. Logically, this is done by what's called a Transaction Translator
(TT). TTs are allocated to the downstream ports, and the most simplistic of
hub controllers implement a *single* TT. This single TT is shared amongst
all downstream devices, and as you might predict, this creates a processing
bottleneck. More performant hub controller implement multiple TTs, usually
with one per downstream port. This means that bottlenecks created by a mix
of downstream 1.1 and 2.0 devices are completely minimized. As explained
above, USB 3.0 devices don't see any of this - they have their own data
signaling wires to start with.

So, in summary, USB 3.0+ hubs can be thought of two USB hubs in one,
although it looks like one physical unit. The controller chips which
comprise a USB 3 hub can be broken into two main logic areas, or PHYs: one
servicing USB 1.1 and 2.0 devices using one or more TTs, and the other
servicing USB 3.0+ devices. This is possible because USB 3.0 devices which
are connected to the hub use their own separate wires. USB 1.1/2.0 devices
are on their own, with any bottlenecks governed by how many TTs are
available as explained above. This also explains why you can generally use a
USB 3.0 hub on a system which only has USB 2.0 ports - the USB 3.0 portion
just goes unused as unrecognized by the host.

On my setups and because astronomy gear tends to be a menagerie of USB 1.1,
2.0, and 3.0 devices, I make sure to use USB hubs which incorporate
controllers which feature multi-TTs. One example of these is the StarTech
ST7300U3M hub, which uses the ASMedia ASM1074 controller.

/dale

On Oct 28, 2018, at 9:40 PM, 'Joseph Zeglinski' J.Zeglinski@...
[ap-gto] <ap-gto@...> wrote:



Jack,

Glad you found the source of the problem.

However, I am curious about the USB channels used with each camera.
Are both cameras USB-2 or is the higher res camera a USB-3. Perhaps there is
a data transmission bottleneck. Please confirm whether their USB level, and
whether they share a common USB stream to the PC. Also, if your PC has a
USB-3 port, ALL of the attached accessories sharing a USB-3 hub, and USB-3
the PC host port, would work much better with far less data contention on
such a link, especially if there is a mix of USB-2 and USB-3 devices in that
loop. That's because a USB-3 camera wouldn't have to wait for the common
port to the PC to become free of any "concurrent" or pending USB-2 traffic,
since USB-3 channels are "bi-directional", unlike two-way alternate USB-2
hogging the common line. Its also the same reason that Ethernet connections
are faster than WiFi.

In the long term - even if you have mostly USB-2 accessories sharing a
hub - assuming you don't have the camera on its own dedicated USB-2 channel
- it would be wise to change any USB-2 loop to a USB-3 which does a far
better job of coexisting with slower accessories.

USB-3 speed owes a lot to its ability to timeshare the data line to
the PC.

Joe




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Jack Huerkamp
 

Joe,

 

Both cameras are USB3.0 and I connect them one at a time to a USB3.0 port on the Dell tower.

 

I am using some USB2.0 accessories on some of the USB ports and switches.  The computer has 5 USB 3.0 ports and I have a few USB3.0 switches attached to them to support other devices.

 

Yours truly,

 

Jack

 

Jack Huerkamp

Jack's Astro Accessories, LLC.

38388 Pine Street

Pearl River, LA 70452

985-445-5063 (Mobile)

mallincamusa@...

www.mallincamusa.com

 

 

 

From: ap-gto@...
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 8:40 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Slow Response through APCC

 

 

Jack,

 

    Glad you found the source of the problem.

 

    However, I am curious about the USB channels used with each camera. Are both cameras USB-2 or is the higher res camera a USB-3. Perhaps there is  a data transmission  bottleneck. Please confirm whether their USB level, and whether they share a common USB stream to the PC. Also, if your PC has a USB-3 port, ALL of the attached accessories sharing a USB-3 hub, and USB-3 the PC host port,  would work much better with far less data contention on such a link, especially if there is a mix of USB-2 and USB-3 devices in that loop. That’s because a USB-3 camera wouldn’t have to wait for the common port to the PC to become free of any “concurrent” or pending USB-2 traffic, since USB-3 channels are “bi-directional”, unlike two-way alternate USB-2 hogging the common line. Its also the same reason that Ethernet connections are faster than WiFi.

 

   In the long term - even if you have mostly USB-2 accessories sharing a hub – assuming you don’t have the camera on its own dedicated USB-2 channel – it would be wise to change any USB-2 loop to a USB-3 which does a far better job of coexisting with slower accessories.

 

    USB-3 speed owes a lot to its ability to timeshare the data line to the PC.

 

Joe




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www.avg.com