Date
1 - 20 of 22
CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding
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Joe Zeglinski
Hi,
At long last, this is a heads-up ... “PRECAUTIONS to
take” and easy FIXES for CP4 owners – after my TWO water-logged disasters.
At the very least, check the (white) CP4 backside
lower edge, for presence of two drain holes, or (unwisely)
“rubber-stoppered” by default, on the (black) Mach-1 style case.
Back in April, I had mentioned in a post
here, the demise of my “first” Replacement CP4 - about which Marj asked me
– (quite understandably):
I am glad comply and to state that indeed the ...
electronics failure was entirely caused by “Dew, from CP4 case panel
leakage”.
In spite of this “initial design” oversight, in my opinion and of many
others, AP makes the finest mounts and scopes on the market. Support and
response to user problems is very good, perhaps exceptional. I would never
choose to own any other brands.
Certainly, the first TWO dew drownings of my CP4
stock units were NOT “electronically” defective, until damaged by dew water
forming on clear nights ... and as such – ONLY the (original, white) CASE design
was defective, the black MACH-1 version is corrected, but drains-plugged
at the factory!
This made the original CP4’s far too
susceptible to dew infiltration, shorting out of the electronics, under
“reasonable observing conditions”, and which could have been easily remedied,
and prevented a lot sooner.
With heated dew-free optics, imaging was always fine, and there was
never a warning that my CP4 were slowly drowning – over a short time – until
disaster and eventual burn out.
But, as with any new product, there are “growing
pains”, and lessons to be learned from problems discovered only through vast
user experience. My own circumstance is having the CP4 UPGRADE ... specifically,
being “attached to the RA axis” to replace the CP3 on my old AP-1200 ...
permanently set up in the backyard. My scope and in particular its new CP4
Upgrade, are exceptionally well protected when not in use, in a
temperature and humidity tightly controlled climate year round, under a well
secured top-to-ground level waterproofed nylon tarp. It has NEVER been exposed
to rain showers, nor been hit by a sprinkler system while uncovered during
observations.
My first CP4 was purchased on the product’s ...
“introductory first ship date” ... and lasted less than 11 months of VERY
occasional use of maybe a dozen nights, before it drowned from dew. Its
(identical) replacement lasted a mere 5 nights of observing, through
winter, for about 4 months – when it too drowned. The first unit’s actual
failure was mis-identified by AP as “Non-water related” ... in spite of an
obvious solid white, inch high, swath of dried water residue along the CP4
circuit board backside bottom, in an AP photo.
Had I known otherwise, I would have taken the
counter-measures, I outline below – and certainly will implement on the ..
“replacement, of the previous replacement, CP4” – now that we discovered
how a large volume of dew managed to leak inside, and had absolutely NO safe and
rapid means of draining right back out as water entered. The two CP4’s
nearly caused permanent scope damage by an uncontrolled runaway mount - both
times.
Therefore, I offer the following
suggestions, to help other users who have not yet experienced this
problem.
Dew entry into the CP4 case, does NOT seem to have
yet been reported, as I was told, by either “Domed, or by Roll-off
Roof” observatory owners.
I suggest that is because the large amount of retained daytime HEAT
radiated by such building’s thick concrete floor, elevates the ambient indoor
temperature directly around the scope, more than that of a mount planted on just
“bare ground” surrounded by cold ambient. This extra, slowly dissipating
observatory heat, may be enough to WIDEN the difference between ambient
temperature and the local DEW point inside the observatory, over a longer
time. A dome would trap more of this “helpful”, though optically undesired
heat, longer than for a mount inside a roll-off’s, fully retracted roof,
building. Ideally, users in both types of observatories try to cool down their
building to ambient, as quickly as possible, before starting an observing
session. This rapid cool down could cause CP4 dew problems to start
sooner. Meanwhile, the gap between ambient and dew point temperatures out
in an “open field” can be much narrower, drop quicker, even though typical
observatories eventually cool down, and then soon, they too become susceptible
to this very same “dew flood” problem. But for those buildings, the “remaining
observing hours” after equilibrium, before exposure to normal dewing, might be
far fewer before the end of session, or none at all. Therefor less, if any, dew
penetrates their CP4 case, or accumulates inside, over months or years.
Open field conditions are worse, but still,
observatories nevertheless remain somewhat susceptible to ... one significant
CP4 “case design fault”. Also, as with dew formation in humid climates, in
temperate regions such as Arizona, there is similar risk for desert sand
particles dropping into the case, through the same openings, forming
electrically conductive “mini-dunes” between component pins. I have seen that on
a different type controller.
My “Easy Fixes” should eliminate the risk of dew (and dust) exposure for
the CP4 electronics – until AP gets around to finally sealing the Ethernet
connector panel leaks, or using rugged leak proof RJ-type connectors, in future
runs.
Joe Z. – Continued below ...
**************************************************************
From the “original” - CP4 release webpage description:
From: “ASTRO-PHYSICS GTOCP4 Control Box for
Servo Drive “
Mechanical Features:
***************
I feel that last claim -
“dust-tight and water
resistant” - was overly optimistic, without
NEMA Industrial Level IP-65 or even a minimal IP-63 water penetration testing
and corresponding certification.
The recent Sept.
2018, considerably expanded second revision of the product document,
updated right after the “replacement of my original CP4” was ALSO declared to be
yet another drowning fatality - now has an added ENVIRONMENTAL
(legal) escape section on page-6, emphasizing the following:
(Extracted):
That is fair warning, but
I assume that even the former claim of EVEN being “water RESISTANT” in the
initial document version, is no longer true (???)
– especially if considering exposure to acts
of God or the Devil - (i.e. Rain, and Sprinkler Systems,
respectively). There is a distinction between “water resistant and water proof”,
the latter implying full immersion. However, excessive dew condensation,
(short of actual falling rain) during a night in perfectly clear skies, is
unavoidable, and a natural part of our hobby. Observatory rain detectors do
fail, domes and roofs do not always close fast enough, or can even jamb when
closing, while those of us who “take a snooze”, while doing hours of
unattended imaging, should all be able to better rely on more robust expensive
electronics.
That latest document
doesn’t commit to defining what AP considers “excessive” condensation, never
mind a reasonable one – not even a “safe dew point temperature difference” from
ambient – one we could continually check the weather office and compare our
ambient during a session. The worst night, that of my second CP4 washout, my
TEMP & RH% logs indicated the ambient was safely still about 6F to 8 F above
dew point, measured right on the mount. But then, breezes can cause momentary
variations, as automatically logged during my 5 minute interval sampling cycles,
so dew still forms on the OTA and slides down, off its slick surface, DIRECTLY
onto the CP4 panel beneath it.
Likewise, these same
problems exist using AP’s “Mounting to Pier Bracket (CBAPT)” as when
attaching the CP4 to the RA axis position in a CP3 Upgrade.
The CBAPT adapter has an (optional) bolt-on
eyelet which if chosen, conveniently angles the bracket outward at 45 degrees
from the pier. Then likewise, for an attached CP4, dew can and very
likely will seep in along the SIDES of the ETHERNET connector, flooding the case
and its electronics with “rust contaminated” water produced from the connector’s
steel “centering brace”. Rust, just as copper, is a near perfect shorting
conductor between the circuit board’s soaked pins.
Something to
Verify on the Ethernet RJ-45 connector
When I looked for causes
on my second drowned CP4, I noticed there were different width open gaps,
on all 4 sides, between the RJ-45 connector and its “oversized” panel
cutout. Every CP4 unit will likely have different gap sizes, depending how it
was soldered in. In my second unit, I could insert the corner of 3 standard business cards into the
widest gaps (left and bottom) – the other sides took one or two. Using a feeler
gauge, the two widest gaps were 0.030” wide, enough for water to easily drip
into.
This became even more obvious after I removed the
circuit board from its CP4 case, holding it up to the sun – the huge gaps just
lit up below the panel !
******************************
Points of DEW Water entry:
In fact there are 3 ways
for dew, either from direct external condensation on the CP4 connector
panel surface itself, or possibly in far greater volume – spilling down off the
surface of the OTA, directly onto the CP4 from the saddle plate. Once this
begins, water will seep inside the case.
In order of decreasing amount,
from:
On the other hand, there
should be no leaks through all the remaining “round connectors” which are
either industrial or military grade, with (likely) hermetically sealed
signal pins. These may eventually corrode, providing problems for future
“Accessories (AUX) or ENCODER” add-ons. There is a “Plug Kit” to cover them,
only recently available for purchase.
Things get worse for those
using “portable” mounts. If you remove the CP4 during transport, or lay the
mount with its CP4 still axis-attached, into its travel luggage, then any
“accumulated” dew water that leaked in over time, will then SLOSH around inside,
covering not only that one inch high swath of the circuit board’s
bottom edge, but far worse, drench every component right to the antenna at
top edge, especially the microprocessor. This wash will not be just “pure dew”
water, but also floating rust particles from the Ethernet Connector’s steel
panel-brace clip, which is just nickel plated metal of some kind. I have
spotted orange rust dots on my last drowned CP4.
CP4
Mounting positions – in order of decreasing risk of
flooding:
SIMPLE quick 2-Minute DIY-FIX for CP4 Dew
Leaks:
There are actually
two things we can do ourselves, to make the CP4 very nearly
“Waterproof”.
If you perform the above
preventative “countermeasures”, then CP3 UPGRADES “might” still be safe,
even if attached to the original position on top of the RA axis. However,
when I offered to Beta test for a “dew leak” using my most recent (second)
CP4 replacement, management graciously declined my generous offer, thus
avoiding possible replacement with yet a fourth unit.
That would be too many “trips to the well” – pun
intended :-)
Extra
protection step – ADD DRAIN HOLES - but may take over an
hour:
If
you have already taken the above quick remedies offered above,
there is still one other essential thing that can be done, to almost guarantee
water won’t short out the electronics inside the case, if dew SOMEHOW still
finds a way in.
Unlike the old reliable CP3,
without Ethernet & USB panel gaps – there was a case design “oversight” (...
Hej ... stuff happens).
The new (WHITE) CP4 case, shipped during the first few years, lacks the TWO “water DRAIN” holes, that the CP3 has along its case bottom, backside edge. The holes on my old CP3 backside were about 3/32” (call it 1/8”), based on measuring by poking a drill bit into the hole. This still might be too tight for “water bubble cohesion” to break through the opening fast enough, without the added weight of more dew and thus a heavier weight, volume of water. A slightly larger diameter hole might be better, depending on the size of bugs you expect to enter the CP4 case - (Really ??? I never found one dead bug inside, in all my years of CPx use) So, if you don’t perform the quick & simple DYI “Sealing” suggestions, above, then at the very least opening up DRAIN holes will prevent upto about TWO “shot-glasses” of water accumulating inside, (over time, perhaps months) - covering the circuit board right upto the bottom edge Ethernet connector panel opening, where it will finally flow back out, when the case’s bottom water capacity is full. There is little likelihood that it would otherwise easily evaporate from inside the case. For RA attached CP4’s lying flatter - at lower Latitudes, the amount of retained case flood water can be even deeper, and spread out covering more IC’s at the upper circuit board. Worst case: observatories nearer to the Equator using old model mounts – where the RA axis attached CP4 lies nearly horizontal, completely inundated with rusty water. **** PROCEDURE – nicely demonstrated in Tony’s Video **** This ADDED SAFETY measure requires first unbolting the top case cover, flipping it up, backside onto a table above the case - to avoid the risk of unplugging the ultra thin WiFi antenna (pull-up) coax cable plug with its delicate miniscule (possibly bendable) gold center pin. Next, unbolt the 4 bolts of the panel section, and the 3 power IC screws from the case sides - (do NOT lose their lock washers, next to the panel surface) ... holding the power IC’s thermal sink tabs to the aluminum case upper sides. Lift out the connector panel with its circuit board as a unit, as you “pull aside” the now empty aluminum case, leaving the electronics safely resting flat on the table and its upper top cover with antenna, positioned above it. NOW ... you can easily DRILL at least two holes on the backside, one at each bottom edge end, in the milled, rounded-out corners – perhaps a third one at upper right and/or upper left, if you think you might need to attach the CP4 rotated by 90 degrees, such as on an AP-900 RA axis, or likewise on an AP-1200 at sites below 37 deg. Latitude, (using a CBAPT adapter). The extra pair of unused (upper) rear DRAIN hole(s) can be covered, with black electrical tape, unseen from the front – or with a special rubber plug, as done on recent (Black) CP4’s. The new ones come with “Drains plugged” by default, looking like “case flat rubber feet” – so, it is far wiser to remove the plugs and store them away. N.B. Tony’s (video) additional Mach-1 CP4 case two holes may be
unnecessary – at least pull out the existing rubber stoppers.
Certainly need to drill a pair in the original
white CP4 case, since there were none at all.
In fact, most of the water ... assuming any still gets in after making the above simple fixes – will drip out MAINLY from “ONLY one” DRAIN hole, not likely both, since the pier/tripod attached mount and its CP4 will likely never stand “perfectly” vertical, especially in the field, so the drops will gradually drift toward just one end drain hole. ---- With this longer, more
difficult task completed, re-assemble the CP4, (carefully) reversing the
disassembly steps taken above – do NOT forget those three lock
washers.
******** END *****
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Joe Zeglinski
Hi, One further note of observation, on my
original post on CP4 dew water entry.
I should emphasize that the CP4’s “Achilles
Heel” – the CP4 Ethernet RJ-45 connector – is most prevalent for those who
“Upgrade their CP3 on one of their OLD AP mounts” and choose to continue
using the new CP4 still attached, angled upward on top of their RA axle.
This leaves the gaps in the panel around the RJ-45 fully exposed to its
own dew condensation as well as the excess dripping down off the OTA
surface. There would still remain a slight risk of water going straight down the
center plug’s hole, to the circuits inside.
The best avoidance is to attach it vertically to the
AP-900 or AP-1200 pier or tripod, rather than on the RA
axle. This will make the CP4 as well protected as on the current
model mounts – (AP-MACH-1, AP-1100 and AP-1600, etc.) ... in their vertically
oriented position.
You should still “RTV or Silicone rubber seal” around
the Ethernet (and possibly a bit around the Guider) panel connector gaps, and
either unplug the corner rubber stoppers from the new CP4 (black) models, or
drill the two missing corner DRAIN holes in the first few years released CP4
(white) model versions, case bottom edge,
backsides.
Upon closer examination, I notice that WHEN the CP4
is mounted “vertically”, there is an... additional BONUS in dew
protection. The “upper front cover” (the one with the antenna stick),
sticks out in front of the connector panel by 3/4 inch, compared to the old CP3
which stuck out slightly less, (1/2 inch). Although not likely intended, this acts
as an “OVERHANGING ROOF”, protecting the panel of connectors below it, from
being hit directly by dripping dew from above, such as dew streaming off the far
greater OTA surface. Thus, the Ethernet connector’s oversized hole’s gaps
(approx. 0.030 inch), would not endure a direct
splash, in this configuration. Furthermore, if you still wanted a bit
more protection, you could even glue a square dowel or piece of
wood/plastic, 6-1/4 inches long by whatever extra thickness you like,
along the upper cover’s bottom edge, to provide an even further outward
diversion of the dew, away from the connector panel. Ideally, you could even
locate a triangular prism cross section dowel, or just use a small piece of
plastic or metal strip, to angle outward from just slightly above the CP4 top
cover’s lower edge, which would divert the water drips even further away,
with a smoother run-off – while presumably still not interfering with the
mount’s cabling.
All of the remaining panel connectors, (except for
the Ethernet and the Guider), are seen to be bolted VERY securely from beneath
their panel surface, making those connectors very likely “water
tight”, to begin with. Along with the YOUR now properly
sealing the Ethernet connector, and “opened” DRAIN holes (for insurance),
the CP4 should then be truly “water resistant” ... if not finally
... “WATER PROOFED” - ready in its vertical attachment
position, to challenge dew, unexpected rain showers, and errant
sprinkler blasts. Joe Z.
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If you have a condensation problem with your CP4, simply put a
plastic, paper or cloth bag over it. Or put a dew heater patch on the
back of the CP4.
More importantly, if you are getting this kind of
profound volumes of dew inside of your observatory or around and on the
rest of your observing site and equipment while observing, you have other
problems that urgently need to be dealt with. Serious problems. All of the rest
of your electronics will be much-more vulnerable to corrosion than the CP4
electronics. Not to mention OTA parts and delicate optical
surfaces.
The circuit board in the CP4 is dip-sealed and dew is, by
definition, non-corrosive, distilled-water. However if your observing
location atmosphere has potentially-corrosive gasses or particulates in it, like
car/truck/furnace/propane/butane exhaust, that could be, when mixed with
water, the source of your corrosion issues.
My suggestion is to stop fixating on the CP4 and start
evaluating your entire setup location and see what-all is vulnerable and what
can be done about the condensation and corrosive gasses and particulates. Your
cameras, optics, computers and everything else are at serious risk, not just the
CP4.
I have seen people use a big binder clip to wrap a beach towel
around the lower half of their mounts and all of the electronics. Not high-tech
and it doesn't involve new holes and machine tools, but is very
effective.
I hope this helps.
-Christopher Erickson
Observatory engineer Summit Kinetics From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...] Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2018 4:50 PM To: ap-gto@... Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding Hi, One further note of observation, on my
original post on CP4 dew water entry.
I should emphasize that the CP4’s “Achilles
Heel” – the CP4 Ethernet RJ-45 connector – is most prevalent for those who
“Upgrade their CP3 on one of their OLD AP mounts” and choose to continue
using the new CP4 still attached, angled upward on top of their RA axle.
This leaves the gaps in the panel around the RJ-45 fully exposed to its
own dew condensation as well as the excess dripping down off the OTA
surface. There would still remain a slight risk of water going straight down the
center plug’s hole, to the circuits inside.
The best avoidance is to attach it vertically to the
AP-900 or AP-1200 pier or tripod, rather than on the RA
axle. This will make the CP4 as well protected as on the current
model mounts – (AP-MACH-1, AP-1100 and AP-1600, etc.) ... in their vertically
oriented position.
You should still “RTV or Silicone rubber seal” around
the Ethernet (and possibly a bit around the Guider) panel connector gaps, and
either unplug the corner rubber stoppers from the new CP4 (black) models, or
drill the two missing corner DRAIN holes in the first few years released CP4
(white) model versions, case bottom edge,
backsides.
Upon closer examination, I notice that WHEN the CP4
is mounted “vertically”, there is an... additional BONUS in dew
protection. The “upper front cover” (the one with the antenna stick),
sticks out in front of the connector panel by 3/4 inch, compared to the old CP3
which stuck out slightly less, (1/2 inch). Although not likely intended, this acts
as an “OVERHANGING ROOF”, protecting the panel of connectors below it, from
being hit directly by dripping dew from above, such as dew streaming off the far
greater OTA surface. Thus, the Ethernet connector’s oversized hole’s gaps
(approx. 0.030 inch), would not endure a direct
splash, in this configuration. Furthermore, if you still wanted a bit
more protection, you could even glue a square dowel or piece of
wood/plastic, 6-1/4 inches long by whatever extra thickness you like,
along the upper cover’s bottom edge, to provide an even further outward
diversion of the dew, away from the connector panel. Ideally, you could even
locate a triangular prism cross section dowel, or just use a small piece of
plastic or metal strip, to angle outward from just slightly above the CP4 top
cover’s lower edge, which would divert the water drips even further away,
with a smoother run-off – while presumably still not interfering with the
mount’s cabling.
All of the remaining panel connectors, (except for
the Ethernet and the Guider), are seen to be bolted VERY securely from beneath
their panel surface, making those connectors very likely “water
tight”, to begin with. Along with the YOUR now properly
sealing the Ethernet connector, and “opened” DRAIN holes (for insurance),
the CP4 should then be truly “water resistant” ... if not finally
.... “WATER PROOFED” - ready in its vertical attachment
position, to challenge dew, unexpected rain showers, and errant
sprinkler blasts. Joe Z.
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Steven
Hi Chris,
Good advice.
Question: Do you have any concerns about the salty corrosive atmosphere on the mountain? Trade winds blow right up the hill, eh?
Steve E NZ From: ap-gto@... on behalf of 'Christopher Erickson' christopher.k.erickson@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Sunday, 7 October 2018 7:00 PM To: ap-gto@... Subject: RE: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding If you have a condensation problem with your CP4, simply put a plastic, paper or cloth bag over it. Or put a dew heater patch on the back of the CP4.
More importantly, if you are getting this kind of profound volumes of dew inside of your observatory or around and on the rest of your observing site
and equipment while observing, you have other problems that urgently need to be dealt with. Serious problems. All of the rest of your electronics will be much-more vulnerable to corrosion than the CP4 electronics. Not to mention OTA parts and delicate optical
surfaces.
The circuit board in the CP4 is dip-sealed and dew is, by definition, non-corrosive, distilled-water. However if your observing location atmosphere has
potentially-corrosive gasses or particulates in it, like car/truck/furnace/propane/butane exhaust, that could be, when mixed with water, the source of your corrosion issues.
My suggestion is to stop fixating on the CP4 and start evaluating your entire setup location and see what-all is vulnerable and what can be done about
the condensation and corrosive gasses and particulates. Your cameras, optics, computers and everything else are at serious risk, not just the CP4.
I have seen people use a big binder clip to wrap a beach towel around the lower half of their mounts and all of the electronics. Not high-tech and it
doesn't involve new holes and machine tools, but is very effective.
I hope this helps.
-Christopher Erickson
Observatory engineer Summit Kinetics From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...] Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2018 4:50 PM To: ap-gto@... Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding
Hi,
One further note of observation, on my original post on CP4 dew water entry.
I should emphasize that the CP4’s “Achilles Heel” – the CP4 Ethernet RJ-45 connector – is most prevalent for those who “Upgrade their CP3 on one of their OLD AP mounts” and choose to continue using the new CP4 still attached,
angled upward on top of their RA axle. This leaves the gaps in the panel around the RJ-45 fully exposed to its own dew condensation as well as the excess dripping down off the OTA surface. There would still remain a slight risk of water going straight down
the center plug’s hole, to the circuits inside.
The best avoidance is to attach it vertically to the AP-900 or AP-1200
pier or tripod, rather than on the RA axle. This will make the CP4 as well protected as on the current model mounts – (AP-MACH-1, AP-1100 and AP-1600, etc.) ... in their vertically oriented position.
You should still “RTV or Silicone rubber seal” around the Ethernet (and possibly a bit around the Guider) panel connector gaps, and either unplug the corner rubber stoppers from the new CP4 (black) models, or drill the two missing
corner DRAIN holes in the first few years released CP4 (white) model versions, case bottom edge, backsides.
Upon closer examination, I notice that WHEN the CP4 is mounted “vertically”, there is an...
additional BONUS in dew protection.
The “upper front cover” (the one with the antenna stick), sticks out in front of the connector panel by 3/4 inch, compared to the old CP3 which stuck out slightly less, (1/2 inch).
Although not likely intended, this acts as an “OVERHANGING ROOF”, protecting the panel of connectors below it, from being hit directly by dripping dew from above, such as dew streaming off the far greater OTA surface. Thus, the
Ethernet connector’s oversized hole’s gaps (approx. 0.030 inch), would not endure a direct splash, in this configuration.
Furthermore, if you still wanted a bit more protection, you could even glue a square dowel or piece of wood/plastic, 6-1/4 inches long by whatever extra thickness you like, along the upper cover’s bottom edge, to provide an even
further outward diversion of the dew, away from the connector panel. Ideally, you could even locate a triangular prism cross section dowel, or just use a small piece of plastic or metal strip, to angle outward from just slightly above the CP4 top cover’s lower
edge, which would divert the water drips even further away, with a smoother run-off – while presumably still not interfering with the mount’s cabling.
All of the remaining panel connectors, (except for the Ethernet and the Guider), are seen to be bolted VERY securely from beneath their panel surface, making those connectors very likely “water tight”, to begin with.
Along with the YOUR now properly sealing the Ethernet connector, and “opened” DRAIN holes (for insurance), the CP4 should then be truly “water resistant” ... if not finally ..... “WATER PROOFED” - ready in its vertical attachment
position, to challenge dew, unexpected rain showers, and errant sprinkler blasts.
Joe Z.
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There aren't any corrosive gasses or particulates on the top
of Mauna Kea. It is way above the inversion layer. And the humidity at 14,000'
is usually around 20-30%.
Mauna Loa does get "gassed" by sulfur dioxide blown up from
Kilauea from time to time. And when mixed with water becomes sulfuric
acid.
My home is in Waikoloa, on the dry side of the island. Once in
a great while we get a visible cloud of vog (volcanic fog) rolling through,
which is corrosive. Most of the time it is the East side of the island that
suffers from constant humidity, rain and corrosion.
Although I live in Hawaii and regularly have 60-80% humidity
outside, I have NEVER had corrosion problems with my CP4's. And about every
other month I am setting up my scopes within a stone's throw of the
ocean.
-Christopher Erickson
Observatory engineer Summit Kinetics From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...] Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2018 6:05 PM To: ap-gto@... Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding Hi Chris, Good advice. Question: Do you have any concerns about the salty corrosive atmosphere on the mountain? Trade winds blow right up the hill, eh? Steve E NZ From: ap-gto@...
on behalf of 'Christopher Erickson'
christopher.k.erickson@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Sunday, 7 October 2018 7:00 PM To: ap-gto@... Subject: RE: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding If you have a condensation problem with your CP4, simply put a
plastic, paper or cloth bag over it. Or put a dew heater patch on the
back of the CP4.
More importantly, if you are getting this kind of
profound volumes of dew inside of your observatory or around and on the
rest of your observing site and equipment while observing, you have other
problems that urgently need to be dealt with. Serious problems. All of the rest
of your electronics will be much-more vulnerable to corrosion than the CP4
electronics. Not to mention OTA parts and delicate optical
surfaces.
The circuit board in the CP4 is dip-sealed and dew is, by
definition, non-corrosive, distilled-water. However if your observing
location atmosphere has potentially-corrosive gasses or particulates in it, like
car/truck/furnace/propane/butane exhaust, that could be, when mixed with
water, the source of your corrosion issues.
My suggestion is to stop fixating on the CP4 and start
evaluating your entire setup location and see what-all is vulnerable and what
can be done about the condensation and corrosive gasses and particulates. Your
cameras, optics, computers and everything else are at serious risk, not just the
CP4.
I have seen people use a big binder clip to wrap a beach towel
around the lower half of their mounts and all of the electronics. Not high-tech
and it doesn't involve new holes and machine tools, but is very
effective.
I hope this helps.
-Christopher Erickson
Observatory engineer Summit Kinetics From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...] Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2018 4:50 PM To: ap-gto@... Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding Hi, One further note of observation, on my
original post on CP4 dew water entry.
I should emphasize that the CP4’s “Achilles
Heel” – the CP4 Ethernet RJ-45 connector – is most prevalent for those who
“Upgrade their CP3 on one of their OLD AP mounts” and choose to continue
using the new CP4 still attached, angled upward on top of their RA axle.
This leaves the gaps in the panel around the RJ-45 fully exposed to its
own dew condensation as well as the excess dripping down off the OTA
surface. There would still remain a slight risk of water going straight down the
center plug’s hole, to the circuits inside.
The best avoidance is to attach it vertically to the
AP-900 or AP-1200 pier or tripod, rather than on the RA
axle. This will make the CP4 as well protected as on the current
model mounts – (AP-MACH-1, AP-1100 and AP-1600, etc.) ... in their vertically
oriented position.
You should still “RTV or Silicone rubber seal” around
the Ethernet (and possibly a bit around the Guider) panel connector gaps, and
either unplug the corner rubber stoppers from the new CP4 (black) models, or
drill the two missing corner DRAIN holes in the first few years released CP4
(white) model versions, case bottom edge,
backsides.
Upon closer examination, I notice that WHEN the CP4
is mounted “vertically”, there is an... additional BONUS in dew
protection. The “upper front cover” (the one with the antenna stick),
sticks out in front of the connector panel by 3/4 inch, compared to the old CP3
which stuck out slightly less, (1/2 inch). Although not likely intended, this acts
as an “OVERHANGING ROOF”, protecting the panel of connectors below it, from
being hit directly by dripping dew from above, such as dew streaming off the far
greater OTA surface. Thus, the Ethernet connector’s oversized hole’s gaps
(approx. 0.030 inch), would not endure a direct
splash, in this configuration. Furthermore, if you still wanted a bit
more protection, you could even glue a square dowel or piece of
wood/plastic, 6-1/4 inches long by whatever extra thickness you like,
along the upper cover’s bottom edge, to provide an even further outward
diversion of the dew, away from the connector panel. Ideally, you could even
locate a triangular prism cross section dowel, or just use a small piece of
plastic or metal strip, to angle outward from just slightly above the CP4 top
cover’s lower edge, which would divert the water drips even further away,
with a smoother run-off – while presumably still not interfering with the
mount’s cabling.
All of the remaining panel connectors, (except for
the Ethernet and the Guider), are seen to be bolted VERY securely from beneath
their panel surface, making those connectors very likely “water
tight”, to begin with. Along with the YOUR now properly
sealing the Ethernet connector, and “opened” DRAIN holes (for insurance),
the CP4 should then be truly “water resistant” ... if not finally
..... “WATER PROOFED” - ready in its vertical attachment
position, to challenge dew, unexpected rain showers, and errant
sprinkler blasts. Joe Z.
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Joe Zeglinski
Chris,
We are both professional electrical engineers, and your
points here, are so waaaaay off.
An expensive and professional level electronics product
like the CP4 ... should NOT require a paper or plastic bag on it, to
operate properly.
Putting a bag over the CP4 – while that would be an appropriate look for
its present state – would be difficult with all the attached cables in the
way. A “dew heater patch” under it, if there actually were enough space between
its backside and its cradle to still lock it down, might work – I doubt there
is. There is probably enough heat given off by the enclosed electronics, to be
equivalent to using a dew heater patch.
However, I was thinking about integrating a “Liquid
level sensor” inside the CP4, based on its present case design status.
All that AP had to do was simply to put some RTV around
just that ONE leaky RJ-45 connector, or use a proper water proof Ethernet
connector, similar to ALL the others on the panel, or even just stipulate that
it NOT be attached on top of the RA axle of old model mounts, and
the CP4 would be “water proofed” – but they DID NOT, couldn’t be bothered to
make the effort, and AP’s “legal disclaimer” on water resistance was an
easier out, for the company.
Don’t know why you assumed my CP4 and telescope is
installed inside an “observatory” – I thought I made it perfectly clear,
it was NOT. You must be skim-reading, or confusing the post with some
other case.
The site is a backyard, 20 feet from the house, in the
middle of a major city of 4 million people on Lake Ontario – not out in the deep
woods or farmer’s field. We don’t have “corrosive air pollution” like many
places in the US or China. People in the US, and most of the world consider
Toronto as one of the cleanest cities, air, streets, etc. on the planet,
and we don’t wear medical face masks when walking outdoors. – Ever been
here? – Try again, Chris.
The only way it would be corrosion, from
(distilled) water “dew”, is if the circuit board wasn’t PROPERLY RINSED during
manufacture, to neutralize solder paste acid, etc. and THAT acidic
water solution would definitely make the incoming dew water, corrosive.
So, perhaps it is a case of poor AP manufacturing practices? But, I wouldn’t
expect that.
Mainly, it is simply a case of plain
drowning, and the circuits were blowing from a string of “orange rust”, obvious
in the photo, between several pins along the bottom of the PCB. That is also
evidenced by a huge wide swath of “rust stain” along the case inside
bottom ledge, at the base of the circuit board, about 2 inches long – that’s
REALLY significant rusting. Would you care to see Marj’s photo of the first
damaged board, and mine of the second drowning?
It was just normal average city dew, perhaps a bit heavier on
one night, than average. Good grief Chris, it “wasn’t raining”
from dew at the time – the skies were pristine, since I was imaging
without problems. It also happened to TWO CP4 boards – and by the way,
NEVER happened to my original two CP3 boards, after over a decade of use, in the
exact same spot. But then ... CP3’s don’t leak – CP4’s can easily leak, if
facing skyward, rather than being vertical.
And yes, the 14.5 inch primary mirror is doing just
fine, no corrosion or dulling, nice and shiny, even after more than 7 years
since re-coating, and the ASUS laptop sitting right beside it, exposed to
the same environmental dew conditions, (covered by a LAPDOME, but not closed
up) didn’t short out ... so please don’t go spinning cobwebs about
corrosive air around here.
Don’t know why you think the circuit board is “dip
sealed”, it certainly isn’t “Potted” which would be overkill.
Perhaps you actually mean “Conformal Coated PCB Traces” - but obviously
the solder joints are NOT – they, and all IC’ pins are bare solder,
fully exposed to water and being short circuited by water and the iron in the
rust, even if the PCB circuit traces themselves, are (green) conformal
coated.
The CP4 needs proper water proofing, more than your
suggestion of just relying on its “PCB conformal coating”, since
Astronomical Telescope electronics are ACTUALLY MEANT to be exposed and used
outdoors, at night, even in winter conditions of wind blown snow dusting. Even
some lowly porch and garage lamps are especially required to be UL/CSA
rated for water penetration, before allowed to be sold to the public.
What makes “astronomy accessories like the CP4” ... UL/CSA
exempt?
I would surprised if the CP4 could have passed UL or CSA
certification – didn’t find it stated in the documentation – only the FCC
radio emission standards.
Joe
From: 'Christopher Erickson'
christopher.k.erickson@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2018 7:00 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: RE: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY
suseptible to DEW flooding If you have a condensation problem with your CP4, simply put a
plastic, paper or cloth bag over it. Or put a dew heater patch on the back of
the CP4.
More importantly, if you are getting this kind of profound
volumes of dew inside of your observatory or around and on the rest of your
observing site and equipment while observing, you have other problems that
urgently need to be dealt with. Serious problems. All of the rest of your
electronics will be much-more vulnerable to corrosion than the CP4 electronics.
Not to mention OTA parts and delicate optical surfaces.
The circuit board in the CP4 is dip-sealed and dew is, by
definition, non-corrosive, distilled-water. However if your observing location
atmosphere has potentially-corrosive gasses or particulates in it, like
car/truck/furnace/propane/butane exhaust, that could be, when mixed with water,
the source of your corrosion issues.
My suggestion is to stop fixating on the CP4 and start
evaluating your entire setup location and see what-all is vulnerable and what
can be done about the condensation and corrosive gasses and particulates. Your
cameras, optics, computers and everything else are at serious risk, not just the
CP4.
I have seen people use a big binder clip to wrap a beach towel
around the lower half of their mounts and all of the electronics. Not high-tech
and it doesn't involve new holes and machine tools, but is very
effective.
I hope this helps.
-Christopher Erickson
Observatory engineer Summit Kinetics From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...] Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2018 4:50 PM To: ap-gto@... Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding Hi, One further note of observation, on my
original post on CP4 dew water entry.
I should emphasize that the CP4’s “Achilles
Heel” – the CP4 Ethernet RJ-45 connector – is most prevalent for those who
“Upgrade their CP3 on one of their OLD AP mounts” and choose to continue
using the new CP4 still attached, angled upward on top of their RA axle.
This leaves the gaps in the panel around the RJ-45 fully exposed to its
own dew condensation as well as the excess dripping down off the OTA
surface. There would still remain a slight risk of water going straight down the
center plug’s hole, to the circuits inside.
The best avoidance is to attach it vertically to the
AP-900 or AP-1200 pier or tripod, rather than on the RA
axle. This will make the CP4 as well protected as on the current
model mounts – (AP-MACH-1, AP-1100 and AP-1600, etc.) ... in their vertically
oriented position.
You should still “RTV or Silicone rubber seal” around
the Ethernet (and possibly a bit around the Guider) panel connector gaps, and
either unplug the corner rubber stoppers from the new CP4 (black) models, or
drill the two missing corner DRAIN holes in the first few years released CP4
(white) model versions, case bottom edge,
backsides.
Upon closer examination, I notice that WHEN the CP4
is mounted “vertically”, there is an... additional BONUS in dew
protection. The “upper front cover” (the one with the antenna stick),
sticks out in front of the connector panel by 3/4 inch, compared to the old CP3
which stuck out slightly less, (1/2 inch). Although not likely intended, this acts
as an “OVERHANGING ROOF”, protecting the panel of connectors below it, from
being hit directly by dripping dew from above, such as dew streaming off the far
greater OTA surface. Thus, the Ethernet connector’s oversized hole’s gaps
(approx. 0.030 inch), would not endure a direct
splash, in this configuration. Furthermore, if you still wanted a bit
more protection, you could even glue a square dowel or piece of
wood/plastic, 6-1/4 inches long by whatever extra thickness you like,
along the upper cover’s bottom edge, to provide an even further outward
diversion of the dew, away from the connector panel. Ideally, you could even
locate a triangular prism cross section dowel, or just use a small piece of
plastic or metal strip, to angle outward from just slightly above the CP4 top
cover’s lower edge, which would divert the water drips even further away,
with a smoother run-off – while presumably still not interfering with the
mount’s cabling.
All of the remaining panel connectors, (except for
the Ethernet and the Guider), are seen to be bolted VERY securely from beneath
their panel surface, making those connectors very likely “water
tight”, to begin with. Along with the YOUR now properly
sealing the Ethernet connector, and “opened” DRAIN holes (for insurance),
the CP4 should then be truly “water resistant” ... if not finally
.... “WATER PROOFED” - ready in its vertical attachment
position, to challenge dew, unexpected rain showers, and errant
sprinkler blasts. Joe Z.
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Dale Ghent
On page 6 of the CP4 documentation[1], under the heading of Environmental Considerations, the tolerance to liquids is rather explicitly stated:
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
"We strive to make our control boxes moisture and dew resistant; however, they are not waterproof! Please be responsible to shield them from excessive dew and condensation." And further: "The GTOCP4 control box and optional Keypad are not waterproof and should be protected from rain and excessive condensation." I suppose it's up to the reader to determine what excessive condensation means to them within the context of their own operations and take any appropriate actions. But that's the extent to any claims of water resistance that are made for the CP4. There are certainly no stated adherence to an industry standard regarding contaminant resistance, such as DSM&T's IP (Ingress Protection) rating system. The root cause you described is basically water splashing onto the unit, almost the equivalent of someone spilling their drink onto it. Per the instructions, it would follow that you'd want to devise a way - appropriate for your setup and operations - to prevent that. Yeah, it would be nice if A-P could both have a better-sealed design and maybe even assign an IP rating, but those things cost money to do. To boot, waterproof RJ45F sockets require a male mate with the appropriate housing around it in order to screw together and make a sealed connection. You just can't solder a female waterproof RJ45 jack to the pcb and call it a day. To do it proper, it's an actual system. As for RTV? I'd expect that answer from my roofer. [1] http://www.astro-physics.com/tech_support/mounts/servo/GTOCP4-Servo-Control-System-manual2.pdf
On Oct 8, 2018, at 12:31 AM, 'Joseph Zeglinski' J.Zeglinski@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...> wrote:
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Joe Zeglinski
Chris,
I don’t know who at AP has been “talking you up”
on this “CP4 corrosion myth”, since I only had Marj posit that theory to me, and
she not being technical, probably heard it from someone else on staff, tossing
it around the table – likely, the so-called “servo engineer” who declared the
first drowned CP4 was definitely not “caused by water corrosion”. Marj then
countermanded his errant opinion – actually, she is way smarter than most. So,
it was definitely just “plain drowning”. The high water mark, an inch-wide
white scum mark, rubs off easily, like chalk, the copper traces were unaffected,
thus the PCB surface was NOT corroded. I just took it for granted that Marj uses
the term “corrosion” someone loosely, as offhand non-technical
parlance, signifying nothing other than there was a swath,
demarcating the depth of dew built up inside the CP4 case, over a few nights of
viewing time – but neither of which had bottom corner DRAIN holes, for the CP4
... to “relieve itself”.
Now, as you reported in another post’s reply below, as a
professional engineer you are quite familiar with and have regularly experienced
“acid rain corrosion”, such as at your observatory near the Hawaiian volcanoes.
Although you attempted to apply your own circumstance to my pristine site here
in Canada, you should realize that if there had actually been ANY outward sign
of “acid rain corrosion” causing the CP4’s to burn out, then the same
“acidic dew” would have been raining down on my “nylon tarp”, covering the
scope over the past 6 years, (from May 2012). The nylon tarp would be a very
delicate “lace cloth” by now.
You remember, Chris --- my nylon “HINDENBURG
Tarp”, as you recently referred to - covering my AP-1200, with its 900 WATT
automatic dew heater underneath the tarp, keeping it at 60% relative humidity,
24/7/365, when it is not open for a few short hours during a session. Yes ...
the tarp is still quite intact, didn’t burn up as you expected, doing well, with
not even a single pin-prick hole in its large nylon surface – from anything like
acid rain. Besides, Chris, if there were a molecule of sulphuric acid in the dew
downpour entering my leaky CP4 – actually BOTH of them - then the AP-1200
paint job would have yellowed or burned off in spots by now, as would the
primary mirror coating, my backyard lawn wouldn’t be the rich green colour
it has been all summer as in every year, the beautiful flowers bloomed in my
garden a few feet away, fruit trees nearby didn’t prematurely shed their leaves
even until now in the fall, and there wasn’t one single dead bird in the yard –
i.e. no equivalent sure-tell “Coalmine Canary”, if you please.
Is that enough evidence to contradict AP’s cockamamie
assumption your contact is espousing, about “corrosion from acid rain”
causing my CP4’s to fail – BOTH of them – rather than ending up as a one inch
deep baptismal font? I can’t see it being your own professional,
well-considered, engineering conclusion – without evidence.
I assume your own CP4, at the occasionally volcano
gassed, “Waikoloa Hawaii, is on a “new AP model” mount, rather than being
attached at your site’s local Latitude angle on top of the RA axle. So I find
your claim quite interesting ... that with all the “sulphuric acid rain”
occasionally hitting YOUR own CP4, it still has not corroded (inside or
outside), and yet you presume that MY far cleaner Canadian skies have an
even stronger sulphuric acid content than your VOG in Hawaii. This is
Canada ... not VENUS !
You really should check out the pretense your friends at
AP may been trying to foist on you – if that really was the case. Unlike the
“vog” (volcanic fog, as you called it) near your site, the only “smell of
sulphur” here on the North American mainland, might be emanating from
someone’s oval-like office, or more recently coming from under ... “a Bench”
;-)
Clear non-VOG skies, Chris -
Joe Z.
From: 'Christopher Erickson'
christopher.k.erickson@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2018 7:21 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: RE: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY
suseptible to DEW flooding There aren't any corrosive gasses or particulates on the top
of Mauna Kea. It is way above the inversion layer. And the humidity at 14,000'
is usually around 20-30%.
Mauna Loa does get "gassed" by sulfur dioxide blown up from
Kilauea from time to time. And when mixed with water becomes sulfuric
acid.
My home is in Waikoloa, on the dry side of the island. Once in
a great while we get a visible cloud of vog (volcanic fog) rolling through,
which is corrosive. Most of the time it is the East side of the island that
suffers from constant humidity, rain and corrosion.
Although I live in Hawaii and regularly have 60-80% humidity
outside, I have NEVER had corrosion problems with my CP4's. And about every
other month I am setting up my scopes within a stone's throw of the
ocean.
-Christopher Erickson
Observatory engineer Summit Kinetics From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...] Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2018 6:05 PM To: ap-gto@... Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding Hi Chris,
Good advice.
Question: Do you have any concerns about the salty corrosive atmosphere on the mountain? Trade winds blow right up the hill, eh?
Steve E NZ
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Steven
Hi Joe,
You are a very funny man, my friend, now I truly appreciated your post, and I'm saving it! Thank You for the enjoyment.
Steve
(PS, you probably realize that vog is a legit met term nowadays? Doesn't matter if you don't know, I still LOVE your reply, it made my day) From: ap-gto@... on behalf of 'Joseph Zeglinski' J.Zeglinski@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2018 1:47 AM To: ap-gto@... Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding Chris,
I don’t know who at AP has been “talking you up” on this “CP4 corrosion myth”, since I only had Marj posit that theory to me, and she not being technical, probably heard it from someone else on staff, tossing it around the table – likely, the so-called
“servo engineer” who declared the first drowned CP4 was definitely not “caused by water corrosion”. Marj then countermanded his errant opinion – actually, she is way smarter than most. So, it was definitely just “plain drowning”. The high water mark, an inch-wide
white scum mark, rubs off easily, like chalk, the copper traces were unaffected, thus the PCB surface was NOT corroded. I just took it for granted that Marj uses the term “corrosion” someone loosely, as offhand non-technical parlance, signifying nothing
other than there was a swath, demarcating the depth of dew built up inside the CP4 case, over a few nights of viewing time – but neither of which had bottom corner DRAIN holes, for the CP4 .... to “relieve itself”.
Now, as you reported in another post’s reply below, as a professional engineer you are quite familiar with and have regularly experienced “acid rain corrosion”, such as at your observatory near the Hawaiian volcanoes. Although you attempted to apply
your own circumstance to my pristine site here in Canada, you should realize that if there had actually been ANY outward sign of “acid rain corrosion” causing the CP4’s to burn out, then the same “acidic dew” would have been raining down on my “nylon tarp”,
covering the scope over the past 6 years, (from May 2012). The nylon tarp would be a very delicate “lace cloth” by now.
You remember, Chris --- my nylon “HINDENBURG Tarp”, as you recently referred to - covering my AP-1200, with its 900 WATT automatic dew heater underneath the tarp, keeping it at 60% relative humidity, 24/7/365, when it is not open for a few short
hours during a session. Yes .... the tarp is still quite intact, didn’t burn up as you expected, doing well, with not even a single pin-prick hole in its large nylon surface – from anything like acid rain. Besides, Chris, if there were a molecule of sulphuric
acid in the dew downpour entering my leaky CP4 – actually BOTH of them - then the AP-1200 paint job would have yellowed or burned off in spots by now, as would the primary mirror coating, my backyard lawn wouldn’t be the rich green colour it has been all
summer as in every year, the beautiful flowers bloomed in my garden a few feet away, fruit trees nearby didn’t prematurely shed their leaves even until now in the fall, and there wasn’t one single dead bird in the yard – i.e. no equivalent sure-tell “Coalmine
Canary”, if you please.
Is that enough evidence to contradict AP’s cockamamie assumption your contact is espousing, about “corrosion from acid rain” causing my CP4’s to fail – BOTH of them – rather than ending up as a one inch deep baptismal font? I can’t see it being your
own professional, well-considered, engineering conclusion – without evidence.
I assume your own CP4, at the occasionally volcano gassed, “Waikoloa Hawaii, is on a “new AP model” mount, rather than being attached at your site’s local Latitude angle on top of the RA axle. So I find your claim quite interesting ... that with
all the “sulphuric acid rain” occasionally hitting YOUR own CP4, it still has not corroded (inside or outside), and yet you presume that MY far cleaner Canadian skies have an even stronger sulphuric acid content than your VOG in Hawaii. This is Canada ...
not VENUS !
You really should check out the pretense your friends at AP may been trying to foist on you – if that really was the case. Unlike the “vog” (volcanic fog, as you called it) near your site, the only “smell of sulphur” here on the North American mainland,
might be emanating from someone’s oval-like office, or more recently coming from under ... “a Bench” ;-)
Clear non-VOG skies, Chris -
Joe Z.
From: 'Christopher Erickson' christopher.k.erickson@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2018 7:21 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: RE: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding
There aren't any corrosive gasses or particulates on the top of Mauna Kea. It is way above the inversion layer. And the humidity at 14,000' is usually
around 20-30%.
Mauna Loa does get "gassed" by sulfur dioxide blown up from Kilauea from time to time. And when mixed with water becomes sulfuric acid.
My home is in Waikoloa, on the dry side of the island. Once in a great while we get a visible cloud of vog (volcanic fog) rolling through, which is corrosive.
Most of the time it is the East side of the island that suffers from constant humidity, rain and corrosion.
Although I live in Hawaii and regularly have 60-80% humidity outside, I have NEVER had corrosion problems with my CP4's. And about every other month I
am setting up my scopes within a stone's throw of the ocean.
-Christopher Erickson
Observatory engineer Summit Kinetics From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...] Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2018 6:05 PM To: ap-gto@... Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding Hi Chris,
Good advice.
Question: Do you have any concerns about the salty corrosive atmosphere on the mountain? Trade winds blow right up the hill, eh?
Steve E NZ
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Hi Joe,
The site is a backyard, 20 feet from the house, in the middle of a major city of 4 million people on Lake Ontario –I don't know what caused the problems with your two CP4's, but in all fairness almost all cities have major pollutants. Even Toronto it seems: https://www.torontoenvironment.org/smog_facts Best regards, -Ray Gralak Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver -----Original Message-----
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wow - of course I didn't real 98% of it. Past government employee?
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Joe Zeglinski
You’re welcome Elliot. Glad you enjoyed some of the tongue-in-cheeky
commentary.
The post came out of a lot of frustration over the past
three years of using the new CP4 , but in any narrative, one can always add
sugar to the vinegar.
I have always had a very high regard for Chris, and continue to value his
opinion, but some conjectures can be misguided. Then again, wouldn’t surprise me
if there is regular contractual or personal exchange with AP on engineering
matters, for a second opinion.
I will continue to trust that there wasn’t “acidic
corrosion” – being produced from infiltrated “humid” outdoor air, and certainly
dew water, entering the case. Nor should there be very much dried acid,
remaining from the board manufacturing process and latent acidic manufacturing
chemicals not having been washed away properly upon completion of board
assembly. Otherwise, my washing down of the milky residue with “PCB cleaner” –
on the second drowned CP4 circuit board, (with Marj’s permission and guidance) –
would have exposed obviously corroded fiberglass strands on the board’s
substrate, leading to further damaged components. My belief is that it was
mostly the result of major short circuiting from the visibly obvious
“rust” from the RJ-45, dissolved in the water, even though
“distilled dew water” could have done almost as much.
To quote the great American - Ben Franklin:
Likewise with CP4 “Waterproofing” or lack thereof, and
AP’s production – for want of a toothpick-sized dab of RTV or similar rubber
calk around the leak prone Ethernet RJ-45 connector ... a CP4, or two, actually
so far at least four now known ... to be lost. Hopefully such laggard disregard
won’t damage AP’s “competitive kingdom” in the marketplace. But really, as long as everyone has their CP4
vertically positioned, with all dew respect there shouldn’t be many more repeats
of such disasters.
Of course, that excludes being struck by mild showers from open domes or
direct hits from sprinklers ... on any CP4.
Joe
From: Steven Elliott steven447@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2018 4:55 AM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY
suseptible to DEW flooding Hi Joe,
You are a very funny man, my friend, now I truly appreciated your post, and I'm saving it! Thank You for the enjoyment.
Steve
(PS, you probably realize that vog is a legit met term nowadays? Doesn't matter if you don't know, I still LOVE your reply, it made my day) From: ap-gto@...
on behalf of 'Joseph Zeglinski'
J.Zeglinski@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2018 1:47 AM To: ap-gto@... Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding Chris,
I don’t know who at AP has been “talking you up”
on this “CP4 corrosion myth”, since I only had Marj posit that theory to me, and
she not being technical, probably heard it from someone else on staff, tossing
it around the table – likely, the so-called “servo engineer” who declared the
first drowned CP4 was definitely not “caused by water corrosion”. Marj then
countermanded his errant opinion – actually, she is way smarter than most. So,
it was definitely just “plain drowning”. The high water mark, an inch-wide
white scum mark, rubs off easily, like chalk, the copper traces were unaffected,
thus the PCB surface was NOT corroded. I just took it for granted that Marj uses
the term “corrosion” someone loosely, as offhand non-technical
parlance, signifying nothing other than there was a swath,
demarcating the depth of dew built up inside the CP4 case, over a few nights of
viewing time – but neither of which had bottom corner DRAIN holes, for the CP4
.... to “relieve itself”.
Now, as you reported in another post’s reply below, as a
professional engineer you are quite familiar with and have regularly experienced
“acid rain corrosion”, such as at your observatory near the Hawaiian volcanoes.
Although you attempted to apply your own circumstance to my pristine site here
in Canada, you should realize that if there had actually been ANY outward sign
of “acid rain corrosion” causing the CP4’s to burn out, then the same
“acidic dew” would have been raining down on my “nylon tarp”, covering the
scope over the past 6 years, (from May 2012). The nylon tarp would be a very
delicate “lace cloth” by now.
You remember, Chris --- my nylon “HINDENBURG
Tarp”, as you recently referred to - covering my AP-1200, with its 900 WATT
automatic dew heater underneath the tarp, keeping it at 60% relative humidity,
24/7/365, when it is not open for a few short hours during a session. Yes ....
the tarp is still quite intact, didn’t burn up as you expected, doing well, with
not even a single pin-prick hole in its large nylon surface – from anything like
acid rain. Besides, Chris, if there were a molecule of sulphuric acid in the dew
downpour entering my leaky CP4 – actually BOTH of them - then the AP-1200
paint job would have yellowed or burned off in spots by now, as would the
primary mirror coating, my backyard lawn wouldn’t be the rich green colour
it has been all summer as in every year, the beautiful flowers bloomed in my
garden a few feet away, fruit trees nearby didn’t prematurely shed their leaves
even until now in the fall, and there wasn’t one single dead bird in the yard –
i.e. no equivalent sure-tell “Coalmine Canary”, if you please.
Is that enough evidence to contradict AP’s cockamamie
assumption your contact is espousing, about “corrosion from acid rain”
causing my CP4’s to fail – BOTH of them – rather than ending up as a one inch
deep baptismal font? I can’t see it being your own professional,
well-considered, engineering conclusion – without evidence.
I assume your own CP4, at the occasionally volcano
gassed, “Waikoloa Hawaii, is on a “new AP model” mount, rather than being
attached at your site’s local Latitude angle on top of the RA axle. So I find
your claim quite interesting ... that with all the “sulphuric acid rain”
occasionally hitting YOUR own CP4, it still has not corroded (inside or
outside), and yet you presume that MY far cleaner Canadian skies have an
even stronger sulphuric acid content than your VOG in Hawaii. This is
Canada ... not VENUS !
You really should check out the pretense your friends at
AP may been trying to foist on you – if that really was the case. Unlike the
“vog” (volcanic fog, as you called it) near your site, the only “smell of
sulphur” here on the North American mainland, might be emanating from
someone’s oval-like office, or more recently coming from under ... “a Bench”
;-)
Clear non-VOG skies, Chris -
Joe Z.
From: 'Christopher Erickson'
christopher.k.erickson@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2018 7:21 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: RE: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY
suseptible to DEW flooding There aren't any corrosive gasses or particulates on the top
of Mauna Kea. It is way above the inversion layer. And the humidity at 14,000'
is usually around 20-30%.
Mauna Loa does get "gassed" by sulfur dioxide blown up from
Kilauea from time to time. And when mixed with water becomes sulfuric
acid.
My home is in Waikoloa, on the dry side of the island. Once in
a great while we get a visible cloud of vog (volcanic fog) rolling through,
which is corrosive. Most of the time it is the East side of the island that
suffers from constant humidity, rain and corrosion.
Although I live in Hawaii and regularly have 60-80% humidity
outside, I have NEVER had corrosion problems with my CP4's. And about every
other month I am setting up my scopes within a stone's throw of the
ocean.
-Christopher Erickson
Observatory engineer Summit Kinetics From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...] Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2018 6:05 PM To: ap-gto@... Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding Hi Chris,
Good advice.
Question: Do you have any concerns about the salty corrosive atmosphere on the mountain? Trade winds blow right up the hill, eh?
Steve E NZ
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Roland Christen
Just so there's no confusion, the CP4 in question had a deposit of low ohmic value surrounding the pins of the Auxiliary input. This Aux input is used to stop mount motion in the 2 axes when the appropriate pins are shorted to common. If enough water accumulates inside and enough stuff gets deposited between the pins, then the stop motion is triggered. There was no corrosion of any kind on the board itself or any of the electronic components. A simple cleaning of the pins restored the normal operation of the CP4.
There is no Aux input on the CP3, so we never saw any of this in the older servo controller.
Normally the CP4 is mounted on the side of the mount where rain cannot enter the connectors. If it's left face up and it rains, then you probably will get water inside. We get a lot of heavy dew conditions here just about every clear night. I have had my own scope and mount so covered with water from dew that it literally runs off the tube like a spigot. Never ever had the CP4 accumulate any moisture inside.
Rolando
-----Original Message----- From: 'Joseph Zeglinski' J.Zeglinski@... [ap-gto] To: ap-gto Sent: Tue, Oct 9, 2018 10:25 am Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding You’re welcome Elliot. Glad you enjoyed some of the tongue-in-cheeky
commentary.
The post came out of a lot of frustration over the past
three years of using the new CP4 , but in any narrative, one can always add
sugar to the vinegar.
I have always had a very high regard for Chris, and continue to value his
opinion, but some conjectures can be misguided. Then again, wouldn’t surprise me
if there is regular contractual or personal exchange with AP on engineering
matters, for a second opinion.
I will continue to trust that there wasn’t “acidic
corrosion” – being produced from infiltrated “humid” outdoor air, and certainly
dew water, entering the case. Nor should there be very much dried acid,
remaining from the board manufacturing process and latent acidic manufacturing
chemicals not having been washed away properly upon completion of board
assembly. Otherwise, my washing down of the milky residue with “PCB cleaner” –
on the second drowned CP4 circuit board, (with Marj’s permission and guidance) –
would have exposed obviously corroded fiberglass strands on the board’s
substrate, leading to further damaged components. My belief is that it was
mostly the result of major short circuiting from the visibly obvious
“rust” from the RJ-45, dissolved in the water, even though
“distilled dew water” could have done almost as much.
To quote the great American - Ben Franklin:
Likewise with CP4 “Waterproofing” or lack thereof, and
AP’s production – for want of a toothpick-sized dab of RTV or similar rubber
calk around the leak prone Ethernet RJ-45 connector ... a CP4, or two, actually
so far at least four now known ... to be lost. Hopefully such laggard disregard
won’t damage AP’s “competitive kingdom” in the marketplace.
But really, as long as everyone has their CP4
vertically positioned, with all dew respect there shouldn’t be many more repeats
of such disasters.
Of course, that excludes being struck by mild showers from open domes or
direct hits from sprinklers ... on any CP4.
Joe
From: Steven Elliott steven447@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2018 4:55 AM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY
suseptible to DEW flooding
Hi Joe,
You are a very funny man, my
friend, now I truly appreciated your post, and I'm saving it! Thank You for the
enjoyment.
Steve
(PS, you probably realize that
vog is a legit met term nowadays? Doesn't matter if you don't know, I still LOVE
your reply, it made my day)
From: ap-gto@...
gto@...> on behalf of 'Joseph Zeglinski'
J.Zeglinski@... [ap-gto] gto@...>
Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2018 1:47 AM To: ap-gto@... Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding Chris,
I don’t know who at AP has been “talking you up”
on this “CP4 corrosion myth”, since I only had Marj posit that theory to me, and
she not being technical, probably heard it from someone else on staff, tossing
it around the table – likely, the so-called “servo engineer” who declared the
first drowned CP4 was definitely not “caused by water corrosion”. Marj then
countermanded his errant opinion – actually, she is way smarter than most. So,
it was definitely just “plain drowning”. The high water mark, an inch-wide
white scum mark, rubs off easily, like chalk, the copper traces were unaffected,
thus the PCB surface was NOT corroded. I just took it for granted that Marj uses
the term “corrosion” someone loosely, as offhand non-technical
parlance, signifying nothing other than there was a swath,
demarcating the depth of dew built up inside the CP4 case, over a few nights of
viewing time – but neither of which had bottom corner DRAIN holes, for the CP4
..... to “relieve itself”.
Now, as you reported in another post’s reply below, as a
professional engineer you are quite familiar with and have regularly experienced
“acid rain corrosion”, such as at your observatory near the Hawaiian volcanoes.
Although you attempted to apply your own circumstance to my pristine site here
in Canada, you should realize that if there had actually been ANY outward sign
of “acid rain corrosion” causing the CP4’s to burn out, then the same
“acidic dew” would have been raining down on my “nylon tarp”, covering the
scope over the past 6 years, (from May 2012). The nylon tarp would be a very
delicate “lace cloth” by now.
You remember, Chris --- my nylon “HINDENBURG
Tarp”, as you recently referred to - covering my AP-1200, with its 900 WATT
automatic dew heater underneath the tarp, keeping it at 60% relative humidity,
24/7/365, when it is not open for a few short hours during a session. Yes .....
the tarp is still quite intact, didn’t burn up as you expected, doing well, with
not even a single pin-prick hole in its large nylon surface – from anything like
acid rain. Besides, Chris, if there were a molecule of sulphuric acid in the dew
downpour entering my leaky CP4 – actually BOTH of them - then the AP-1200
paint job would have yellowed or burned off in spots by now, as would the
primary mirror coating, my backyard lawn wouldn’t be the rich green colour
it has been all summer as in every year, the beautiful flowers bloomed in my
garden a few feet away, fruit trees nearby didn’t prematurely shed their leaves
even until now in the fall, and there wasn’t one single dead bird in the yard –
i.e. no equivalent sure-tell “Coalmine Canary”, if you please.
Is that enough evidence to contradict AP’s cockamamie
assumption your contact is espousing, about “corrosion from acid rain”
causing my CP4’s to fail – BOTH of them – rather than ending up as a one inch
deep baptismal font? I can’t see it being your own professional,
well-considered, engineering conclusion – without evidence.
I assume your own CP4, at the occasionally volcano
gassed, “Waikoloa Hawaii, is on a “new AP model” mount, rather than being
attached at your site’s local Latitude angle on top of the RA axle. So I find
your claim quite interesting ... that with all the “sulphuric acid rain”
occasionally hitting YOUR own CP4, it still has not corroded (inside or
outside), and yet you presume that MY far cleaner Canadian skies have an
even stronger sulphuric acid content than your VOG in Hawaii. This is
Canada ... not VENUS !
You really should check out the pretense your friends at
AP may been trying to foist on you – if that really was the case. Unlike the
“vog” (volcanic fog, as you called it) near your site, the only “smell of
sulphur” here on the North American mainland, might be emanating from
someone’s oval-like office, or more recently coming from under ... “a Bench”
;-)
Clear non-VOG skies, Chris -
Joe Z.
From: 'Christopher Erickson'
christopher.k.erickson@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2018 7:21 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: RE: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY
suseptible to DEW flooding
There aren't any corrosive gasses or particulates on the top
of Mauna Kea. It is way above the inversion layer. And the humidity at 14,000'
is usually around 20-30%.
Mauna Loa does get "gassed" by sulfur dioxide blown up from
Kilauea from time to time. And when mixed with water becomes sulfuric
acid.
My home is in Waikoloa, on the dry side of the island.. Once in
a great while we get a visible cloud of vog (volcanic fog) rolling through,
which is corrosive. Most of the time it is the East side of the island that
suffers from constant humidity, rain and corrosion.
Although I live in Hawaii and regularly have 60-80% humidity
outside, I have NEVER had corrosion problems with my CP4's. And about every
other month I am setting up my scopes within a stone's throw of the
ocean.
-Christopher Erickson
Observatory engineer Summit Kinetics From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...] Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2018 6:05 PM To: ap-gto@... Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding Hi Chris,
Good advice.
Question: Do you have any
concerns about the salty corrosive atmosphere on the mountain? Trade winds blow
right up the hill, eh?
Steve E
NZ
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Steven
Your respect for Chris is well-and-truly obvious - mine should be too, in every way.
I'm still ROF laughing, Thanks Joe, I look fwd to more. We all surely know the high quality of the AP gear, and one thing I like about AP in general is that Rolando and his staff actually listen to their customers. That's the main thing - and we know it!
Mind the vog,
Steve From: ap-gto@... on behalf of 'Joseph Zeglinski' J.Zeglinski@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2018 11:21 AM To: ap-gto@... Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding You’re welcome Elliot. Glad you enjoyed some of the tongue-in-cheeky commentary.
The post came out of a lot of frustration over the past three years of using the new CP4 , but in any narrative, one can always add sugar to the vinegar.
I have always had a very high regard for Chris, and continue to value his opinion, but some conjectures can be misguided. Then again, wouldn’t surprise me if there is regular contractual or personal exchange with AP on engineering matters, for a second
opinion.
I will continue to trust that there wasn’t “acidic corrosion” – being produced from infiltrated “humid” outdoor air, and certainly dew water, entering the case. Nor should there be very much dried acid, remaining from the board manufacturing process
and latent acidic manufacturing chemicals not having been washed away properly upon completion of board assembly. Otherwise, my washing down of the milky residue with “PCB cleaner” – on the second drowned CP4 circuit board, (with Marj’s permission and guidance)
– would have exposed obviously corroded fiberglass strands on the board’s substrate, leading to further damaged components. My belief is that it was mostly the result of major short circuiting from the visibly obvious “rust” from the RJ-45, dissolved in
the water, even though “distilled dew water” could have done almost as much.
To quote the great American - Ben Franklin:
Likewise with CP4 “Waterproofing” or lack thereof, and AP’s production – for want of a toothpick-sized dab of RTV or similar rubber calk around the leak prone Ethernet RJ-45 connector ... a CP4, or two, actually so far at least four now known ... to
be lost. Hopefully such laggard disregard won’t damage AP’s “competitive kingdom” in the marketplace.
But really, as long as everyone has their CP4 vertically positioned, with all dew respect there shouldn’t be many more repeats of such disasters.
Of course, that excludes being struck by mild showers from open domes or direct hits from sprinklers ... on any CP4.
Joe
From: Steven Elliott steven447@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2018 4:55 AM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding
Hi Joe,
You are a very funny man, my friend, now I truly appreciated your post, and I'm saving it! Thank You for the enjoyment.
Steve
(PS, you probably realize that vog is a legit met term nowadays? Doesn't matter if you don't know, I still LOVE your reply, it made my day) From: ap-gto@...
Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2018 1:47 AM To: ap-gto@... Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding Chris,
I don’t know who at AP has been “talking you up” on this “CP4 corrosion myth”, since I only had Marj posit that theory to me, and she not being technical, probably heard it from someone else on staff, tossing it around the table – likely, the so-called
“servo engineer” who declared the first drowned CP4 was definitely not “caused by water corrosion”. Marj then countermanded his errant opinion – actually, she is way smarter than most. So, it was definitely just “plain drowning”. The high water mark, an inch-wide
white scum mark, rubs off easily, like chalk, the copper traces were unaffected, thus the PCB surface was NOT corroded. I just took it for granted that Marj uses the term “corrosion” someone loosely, as offhand non-technical parlance, signifying nothing
other than there was a swath, demarcating the depth of dew built up inside the CP4 case, over a few nights of viewing time – but neither of which had bottom corner DRAIN holes, for the CP4 ..... to “relieve itself”.
Now, as you reported in another post’s reply below, as a professional engineer you are quite familiar with and have regularly experienced “acid rain corrosion”, such as at your observatory near the Hawaiian volcanoes. Although you attempted to apply
your own circumstance to my pristine site here in Canada, you should realize that if there had actually been ANY outward sign of “acid rain corrosion” causing the CP4’s to burn out, then the same “acidic dew” would have been raining down on my “nylon tarp”,
covering the scope over the past 6 years, (from May 2012). The nylon tarp would be a very delicate “lace cloth” by now.
You remember, Chris --- my nylon “HINDENBURG Tarp”, as you recently referred to - covering my AP-1200, with its 900 WATT automatic dew heater underneath the tarp, keeping it at 60% relative humidity, 24/7/365, when it is not open for a few short
hours during a session. Yes ..... the tarp is still quite intact, didn’t burn up as you expected, doing well, with not even a single pin-prick hole in its large nylon surface – from anything like acid rain. Besides, Chris, if there were a molecule of sulphuric
acid in the dew downpour entering my leaky CP4 – actually BOTH of them - then the AP-1200 paint job would have yellowed or burned off in spots by now, as would the primary mirror coating, my backyard lawn wouldn’t be the rich green colour it has been all
summer as in every year, the beautiful flowers bloomed in my garden a few feet away, fruit trees nearby didn’t prematurely shed their leaves even until now in the fall, and there wasn’t one single dead bird in the yard – i.e. no equivalent sure-tell “Coalmine
Canary”, if you please.
Is that enough evidence to contradict AP’s cockamamie assumption your contact is espousing, about “corrosion from acid rain” causing my CP4’s to fail – BOTH of them – rather than ending up as a one inch deep baptismal font? I can’t see it being your
own professional, well-considered, engineering conclusion – without evidence.
I assume your own CP4, at the occasionally volcano gassed, “Waikoloa Hawaii, is on a “new AP model” mount, rather than being attached at your site’s local Latitude angle on top of the RA axle. So I find your claim quite interesting ... that with
all the “sulphuric acid rain” occasionally hitting YOUR own CP4, it still has not corroded (inside or outside), and yet you presume that MY far cleaner Canadian skies have an even stronger sulphuric acid content than your VOG in Hawaii. This is Canada ...
not VENUS !
You really should check out the pretense your friends at AP may been trying to foist on you – if that really was the case. Unlike the “vog” (volcanic fog, as you called it) near your site, the only “smell of sulphur” here on the North American mainland,
might be emanating from someone’s oval-like office, or more recently coming from under ... “a Bench” ;-)
Clear non-VOG skies, Chris -
Joe Z.
From: 'Christopher Erickson' christopher.k.erickson@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2018 7:21 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: RE: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding
There aren't any corrosive gasses or particulates on the top of Mauna Kea. It is way above the inversion layer. And the humidity at 14,000' is usually
around 20-30%.
Mauna Loa does get "gassed" by sulfur dioxide blown up from Kilauea from time to time. And when mixed with water becomes sulfuric acid.
My home is in Waikoloa, on the dry side of the island. Once in a great while we get a visible cloud of vog (volcanic fog) rolling through, which is
corrosive. Most of the time it is the East side of the island that suffers from constant humidity, rain and corrosion.
Although I live in Hawaii and regularly have 60-80% humidity outside, I have NEVER had corrosion problems with my CP4's. And about every other month
I am setting up my scopes within a stone's throw of the ocean.
-Christopher Erickson
Observatory engineer Summit Kinetics From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...] Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2018 6:05 PM To: ap-gto@... Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding Hi Chris,
Good advice.
Question: Do you have any concerns about the salty corrosive atmosphere on the mountain? Trade winds blow right up the hill, eh?
Steve E NZ
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Joe Zeglinski
Hi Dale,
Everything you wrote is quite true, and I agree
with “most” of your statements, on this ONE waterproofing issue.
That said, the ONLY way to avoid the CP4 getting soaked
on a heavier than normal dew nights, for me - is to avoid uncovering the scope –
even if the skies look perfect and imaging is normal. A closed circuit TV can’t
spot occasional dew dripping off the OTA in the darkness of night, onto a
CP4 pointing face-up to the sky. The observatory Cloud and weather sensors,
won’t pick up enough dew drops to trigger a rain event alarm, if we were forced
into paying for such extra expense protection, rather than a better seal on the
CP4 panel to begin with.
In short, there are no “viable counter measures” during
observing – we are just left to the risks that a CP4, especially on an older
mount, present us with.
As to your comment on truly waterproof RJ-45 panel
connectors, they aren’t much more expensive than the regular “indoor use only”
version installed on the CP4’s panel. Considering that the CP4 cost me about
$1500, a couple of dollars more for a better water resistant OUTDOOR Ethernet
connector should have been well-buried in AP’s penny pinching bottom line.
See for example: LTE/AMPHENOL waterproof connector product line, with
a very high IP66 to IP68 ingress rating,
or the linked version of an IP67 rated connector, below:
As for REQUIRING a similar waterproof RJ-45 “mating
cable PLUG”, that would only be true in far more harsher wet environments, such
as if I wanted to operate an Ethernet Access Point in an undersea research
environment – or inside a “Car Wash”.
In fact, ANY standard household RJ-45 Ethernet cable, easily plugs into the
bulk panel waterproof socket without extra cable end waterproofing. In our
outdoor telescope environment, even in pouring rain – water would NOT get past
the RJ-45 panel connector to do harm to CP4 electronics inside the box, with
such a panel connector.
For example, for over a decade now, I have been using
a --- HAWKING TECHNOLOGIES model HOWABN1 -
“Hi-Gain
OUTDOOR Wireless 300N AccessPoint/Bridge/Repeater”
... which has an AMPHENOL/LTE waterproof RJ-45 panel connector on its top
panel – obviously for mounting it to a building’s wall or roof. It accepts my
regular indoor CAT5 cable, but if I wanted to use it in a really stormy
environment, I could simply slip on the mating lock shield housing onto
the regular CAT5 cable and insert its (provided) water blocking rubber gland
inside the plug housing, before mating and screwing both halves together.
But, such extreme measures are not
required, just to block simple dew – possibly added to by the OTA’s
surface dew - from entering the CP4 – even if it suddenly rains very hard
for a while. In fact, upon closer examination of the access point’s LTW
socket, the center hole with its gold data pins has a solidly sealed
internal bottom, so that if any water manages to slip down the cable, past
its CAT5 rubber plug cable hood, it would still could not leak inside to the
electronics box via that socket’s internal route.
But Dale, based on your impressive bio of past
experience, specifically as a Cloud Building Engineer, you would already
be aware of such details.
Compare that IP-67 waterproof socket to the “el-cheap”
household RJ-type connectors AP used in assembling the CP4, definitely NOT meant
for the outdoors, with its straight in path data pins base open to leakage at
the internal bottom, never mind the open gaps around the Ethernet panel
connector’s outer edge. While AP’s (minor) competition like Software Bisque,
Takahashi, Meade and Celestron are not much different, I would have expected
better of AP, considering how far the CP4 design has already gone.
Really !!! AP couldn’t afford a waterproof RJ connector,
considering how far they already went with the other (excellent, well sealed),
AMPHENOL round connectors?
AP couldn’t even afford just one dab of silicone sealer, or the few seconds
to apply it on the assembly line to protect all mounts - both new and old?
What were they thinking? Perhaps they just need to try harder to ... strive to make our control boxes
moisture and dew resistant;
... Incredible !
Nuff’ said.
Joe
From: Dale
Ghent daleg@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Monday, October 8, 2018 2:21 AM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY
suseptible to DEW flooding On page 6 of the CP4 documentation[1], under the heading of Environmental Considerations, the tolerance to liquids is rather explicitly stated: "We strive to make our control boxes moisture and dew resistant; however, they are not waterproof! Please be responsible to shield them from excessive dew and condensation." And further: "The GTOCP4 control box and optional Keypad are not waterproof and should be protected from rain and excessive condensation." I suppose it's up to the reader to determine what excessive condensation means to them within the context of their own operations and take any appropriate actions. But that's the extent to any claims of water resistance that are made for the CP4. There are certainly no stated adherence to an industry standard regarding contaminant resistance, such as DSM&T's IP (Ingress Protection) rating system. The root cause you described is basically water splashing onto the unit, almost the equivalent of someone spilling their drink onto it. Per the instructions, it would follow that you'd want to devise a way - appropriate for your setup and operations - to prevent that. Yeah, it would be nice if A-P could both have a better-sealed design and maybe even assign an IP rating, but those things cost money to do. To boot, waterproof RJ45F sockets require a male mate with the appropriate housing around it in order to screw together and make a sealed connection. You just can't solder a female waterproof RJ45 jack to the pcb and call it a day. To do it proper, it's an actual system. As for RTV? I'd expect that answer from my roofer. [1] http://www.astro-physics.com/tech_support/mounts/servo/GTOCP4-Servo-Control-System-manual2.pdf
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Worsel
That proverb is much older, but your point is taken
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Bryan ---In ap-gto@..., <J.Zeglinski@...> wrote : To quote the great American - Ben Franklin:
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Dale Ghent
Have you ever seen or used a CP3? You can actually see the pcboard through the 4-pin modular jack ST-4 port on it - ie, the innards are quite exposed through that jack. In fact, if the pins weren't there, a person with a slender pinky could probably jam it through and touch the pcb. Roland explained what the issue was with the unit in question and it had nothing to do with water ingestion of the unit, but it seems like you've convinced yourself otherwise.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
You are understandably upset about a problem that isn't a problem for most people, and is expressly warned about in opening pages of the documentation. I have no idea about how A-P schedules CP4 production, but I presume they make them/get them made in large batches which are stockpiled until they need to make another production order - ie, any component changes aren't going to happen overnight, and since it's probably not a huge issue, it's a cost that can be avoided because the mitigations are largely site-specific and, well, generally cheap to do. Aslo, two things: 1) Your mail is coming through in the Comic Sans font, which makes it distracting and visually disfluent to read. 2) Please use quotation marks in a more correct manner. The copious and largely spurious use of them makes it hard to understand the points you are attempting to make, and are likely to confuse non-native English speakers.
On Oct 9, 2018, at 2:41 PM, 'Joseph Zeglinski' J.Zeglinski@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...> wrote:
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Joe Zeglinski
Thanks Dale,
That is good advice, on all counts. Appreciate your
feedback.
Yes, I have two AP mounts (AP-900 & AP-1200), so I
am familiar with the CP3. The RJ-11 and RJ-12 sockets are indeed open and as you
wrote, you can actually see the writing on the circuit board below. But somehow,
I have not had water destroy either one of my CP3’s over all the years – maybe
because they have drain holes, while the first 3 years of the (white) model CP4
had none. This has been corrected in new models and in later CP4 production
units, so even when water gets inside, it supposedly and hopefully gets out
right away.
I’m sorry – don’t see Roland’s explanation about my unit
– just Marj’s personal email declaring that it definitely was destroyed by
flooding. So, should I believe Rolando, or his wife? There are a lot of
contradictions.
When the first CP4 died, Howard emailed AP’s findings, after considerable,
time consuming investigation.
When the second CP4 drowned, Marj reminded me that my
previous (first) CP4 was damaged by water ingress – but I was never informed
about the change in the cause – so naturally couldn’t investigate and take my
own counter-measures – it too drowned :
The second CP4 was also decreed a drowning victim,
after the above messages were received.
Internal rust stains proved Marj absolutely right, as did the other reports
where user’s CP4’s got drenched. under different circumstances. I don’t
think the staff at AP can find a consensus – maybe it would be a good company
lunch table topic, or as pillow talk between the principals - Just kidding.
Almost seems that there is an unfortunate lack of communications all around.
I can appreciate that the problem can’t be quickly fixed
in production, but home made fixes, and work a round's like CP4 repositioning
and calking, are easy and take far less time than relying on the small,
very over-worked staff at AP. It took 4 months to turn around the repaired
shipment BOTH times. Heck it took 2 months starting on July 4th, just to travel
from Marj’s desk to Daleen’s shipping desk, at light speed ... Very light speed
:-)
At least we can drill our own holes in CP4 cases where
they have been overlooked in previous production shipments. Silicone sealing
takes a few minutes of effort. All those CP4’s in the field will never get
corrected, no recalls – but future customers may benefit from my findings and
ordeals –trials and tribulations, and may save a lot of money in unwarranted
repair costs.
I’m glad to finally put this string of disasters to
rest, with my only hope to help others on this group not to fall into the same
situation as I did.
**********
Dale – many thanks for your heads-up on the
font. Which font is best?
I see that your email is written with CALIBRI 12 point, which is
coincidentally the Microsoft LIVE MAIL default. Did you specifically choose this
style, or just took the default given to you? I have heard that TIMES ROMAN
style is supposed to be the best for reading text, but it looks cold, isn’t as
pretty as Comic Sans MS.
I started using Comic Sans MS font at Joe Mize’s
suggestion, saying it was easier for him to read my emails, especially for our
older eyes – and I agreed with his observation. But now you claim the opposite
is true. I would gladly use the font style and size most people would prefer.
So, please advise.
I wonder if the COMIC SANS font style is perhaps
being converted in some user’s Windows, or by their PC video card character
tables, and thus maybe appears differently on your screen than mine. Or perhaps,
the font style changes are based on the “mail program” used to display messages
– I read emails using Windows LIVE MAIL, rather than on YAHOO, if that
makes any difference.
I like that font – but would prefer to use whatever is easier for everyone
else to read on screen.
So please, everyone – chime in on your font preference
to help me out here. Do you prefer the CALIBRI-12 point which Dale is
using?
*********
As for my unfortunately obvious, over-use of quotes –
GUILTY and embarrassing.
I like to highlight important points, and they can get to be far too
copious, in the heat of my editorial over-exuberance. Really, that is poor
writing practice. I had a boss once who sent me a document with an exclamation
mark at the end of almost every sentence, because he too got himself hyped up
about the company products and benefitting customers. So, I just told him that
the document was fine, but for Pete’s sake, stop SHOUTING at me :-)
Seems I am equally guilty here, and really should review the proper
grammatical use of quotation marks, outside of an actual person’s quoted
statement.
I think I erased all of them here.
Appreciate your correcting me, Dale.
Joe
From: Dale
Ghent daleg@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2018 9:16 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY
suseptible to DEW flooding Have you ever seen or used a CP3? You can actually see the pcboard through the 4-pin modular jack ST-4 port on it - ie, the innards are quite exposed through that jack. In fact, if the pins weren't there, a person with a slender pinky could probably jam it through and touch the pcb. Roland explained what the issue was with the unit in question and it had nothing to do with water ingestion of the unit, but it seems like you've convinced yourself otherwise. You are understandably upset about a problem that isn't a problem for most people, and is expressly warned about in opening pages of the documentation. I have no idea about how A-P schedules CP4 production, but I presume they make them/get them made in large batches which are stockpiled until they need to make another production order - ie, any component changes aren't going to happen overnight, and since it's probably not a huge issue, it's a cost that can be avoided because the mitigations are largely site-specific and, well, generally cheap to do. Aslo, two things: 1) Your mail is coming through in the Comic Sans font, which makes it distracting and visually disfluent to read. 2) Please use quotation marks in a more correct manner. The copious and largely spurious use of them makes it hard to understand the points you are attempting to make, and are likely to confuse non-native English speakers. > On Oct 9, 2018, at 2:41 PM, 'Joseph Zeglinski' J.Zeglinski@... [ap-gto] wrote: > > > > Hi Dale, > > Everything you wrote is quite true, and I agree with “most” of your statements, on this ONE waterproofing issue. > > That said, the ONLY way to avoid the CP4 getting soaked on a heavier than normal dew nights, for me - is to avoid uncovering the scope – even if the skies look perfect and imaging is normal. A closed circuit TV can’t spot occasional dew dripping off the OTA in the darkness of night, onto a CP4 pointing face-up to the sky. The observatory Cloud and weather sensors, won’t pick up enough dew drops to trigger a rain event alarm, if we were forced into paying for such extra expense protection, rather than a better seal on the CP4 panel to begin with. > > In short, there are no “viable counter measures” during observing – we are just left to the risks that a CP4, especially on an older mount, present us with. > > As to your comment on truly waterproof RJ-45 panel connectors, they aren’t much more expensive than the regular “indoor use only” version installed on the CP4’s panel. Considering that the CP4 cost me about $1500, a couple of dollars more for a better water resistant OUTDOOR Ethernet connector should have been well-buried in AP’s penny pinching bottom line. > > See for example: LTE/AMPHENOL waterproof connector product line, with a very high IP66 to IP68 ingress rating, > or the linked version of an IP67 rated connector, below: >> Waterproof Case Side CAT5e RJ45 Connector, with Shielded Jack 13/16" – 28 UN threading >> >> IP67 rated weatherproof ... RJ45 feed-thru shielded coupler >> > https://www.vpi.us/waterproof-rj45-28un/waterproof-rj45-28un-shielded-jack-320 > > As for REQUIRING a similar waterproof RJ-45 “mating cable PLUG”, that would only be true in far more harsher wet environments, such as if I wanted to operate an Ethernet Access Point in an undersea research environment – or inside a “Car Wash”. > In fact, ANY standard household RJ-45 Ethernet cable, easily plugs into the bulk panel waterproof socket without extra cable end waterproofing. In our outdoor telescope environment, even in pouring rain – water would NOT get past the RJ-45 panel connector to do harm to CP4 electronics inside the box, with such a panel connector. > > For example, for over a decade now, I have been using a --- HAWKING TECHNOLOGIES model HOWABN1 - > “Hi-Gain OUTDOOR Wireless 300N AccessPoint/Bridge/Repeater” > > ... which has an AMPHENOL/LTE waterproof RJ-45 panel connector on its top panel – obviously for mounting it to a building’s wall or roof. It accepts my regular indoor CAT5 cable, but if I wanted to use it in a really stormy environment, I could simply slip on the mating lock shield housing onto the regular CAT5 cable and insert its (provided) water blocking rubber gland inside the plug housing, before mating and screwing both halves together. > > But, such extreme measures are not required, just to block simple dew – possibly added to by the OTA’s surface dew - from entering the CP4 – even if it suddenly rains very hard for a while. In fact, upon closer examination of the access point’s LTW socket, the center hole with its gold data pins has a solidly sealed internal bottom, so that if any water manages to slip down the cable, past its CAT5 rubber plug cable hood, it would still could not leak inside to the electronics box via that socket’s internal route. > > But Dale, based on your impressive bio of past experience, specifically as a Cloud Building Engineer, you would already be aware of such details. > > Compare that IP-67 waterproof socket to the “el-cheap” household RJ-type connectors AP used in assembling the CP4, definitely NOT meant for the outdoors, with its straight in path data pins base open to leakage at the internal bottom, never mind the open gaps around the Ethernet panel connector’s outer edge. While AP’s (minor) competition like Software Bisque, Takahashi, Meade and Celestron are not much different, I would have expected better of AP, considering how far the CP4 design has already gone. > > Really !!! AP couldn’t afford a waterproof RJ connector, considering how far they already went with the other (excellent, well sealed), AMPHENOL round connectors? > AP couldn’t even afford just one dab of silicone sealer, or the few seconds to apply it on the assembly line to protect all mounts - both new and old? > What were they thinking? Perhaps they just need to try harder to ... strive to make our control boxes moisture and dew resistant; > ... Incredible ! > > Nuff’ said. > Joe > > > From: Dale Ghent daleg@... [ap-gto] > Sent: Monday, October 8, 2018 2:21 AM > To: ap-gto@... > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY suseptible to DEW flooding > > > > On page 6 of the CP4 documentation[1], under the heading of Environmental Considerations, the tolerance to liquids is rather explicitly stated: > > "We strive to make our control boxes moisture and dew resistant; however, they are not waterproof! Please be responsible to shield them from excessive dew and condensation." > > And further: > > "The GTOCP4 control box and optional Keypad are not waterproof and should be protected from rain and excessive condensation." > > I suppose it's up to the reader to determine what excessive condensation means to them within the context of their own operations and take any appropriate actions. But that's the extent to any claims of water resistance that are made for the CP4. There are certainly no stated adherence to an industry standard regarding contaminant resistance, such as DSM&T's IP (Ingress Protection) rating system. > > The root cause you described is basically water splashing onto the unit, almost the equivalent of someone spilling their drink onto it. Per the instructions, it would follow that you'd want to devise a way - appropriate for your setup and operations - to prevent that. Yeah, it would be nice if A-P could both have a better-sealed design and maybe even assign an IP rating, but those things cost money to do. > > To boot, waterproof RJ45F sockets require a male mate with the appropriate housing around it in order to screw together and make a sealed connection. You just can't solder a female waterproof RJ45 jack to the pcb and call it a day. To do it proper, it's an actual system. As for RTV? I'd expect that answer from my roofer. > > [1] http://www.astro-physics.com/tech_support/mounts/servo/GTOCP4-Servo-Control-System-manual2.pdf > > > > ------------------------------------ Posted by: Dale Ghent ------------------------------------ To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-gto list see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-gto ------------------------------------ Yahoo Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-gto/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-gto/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: ap-gto-digest@... ap-gto-fullfeatured@... <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ap-gto-unsubscribe@... <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to: https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
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Joe Zeglinski
Rolando,
Just to get your stated facts quite straight – you write
that AP tech support ONLY had to “simply” clean the the AUX connector pins
to restore normal operation of my second drowned CP4. Why wasn’t I informed of
this huge success at the time – was it on a need to know basis only, and
customers don’t?
Well, why did it take tech support all of TWO months,
after receiving my returned unit in May, to get to that simple point of
the CP4’s mystic resurrection?
Check with your wife – at the time, in April, I asked her for permission
to take the circuit board out of the case, to check for any remaining
water, or for the same residue/corrosion, as with the first CP4 board she
photographed. Upon inspection, there was no water left inside, probably because
I had already left the CP4 on the window sill for it to dry out all day, in the
hot summer sun, before another test run. Then, after that retest also
failed to bring the CP4 to life, upon disassembly I saw only a smidge of
water scum around some pins (Marj has my photo of it) – in comparison to much
more on the first drowned CP4, and the same, but much lighter, high water scum
mark, as on the first board. I asked her if it would be permissible to wash off
the residue, with alcohol and professional circuit board cleaner on the
backside of the board, for yet another attempted revival.
So, I not only wire brushed off that
one inch high water section, especially where there was more white
residue caked around the pins, but also sprayed it completely with “PCB
cleaner”, then a final rinse with 99% pure Isopropyl alcohol. I
reassembled it following the CP4 assembly instructions Marj emailed me – and
retested the CP4 yet again.
It was still just as dead as before I cleaned it up
using the brush and chemicals. With no options left, I followed Marj’s
instructions, sending it in for possible component repair.
So, you had it for a total of 4 very long months, blew
away my entire summer’s observing, May to September – about as long as the
first CP4 took last year, just to do a simple “pin clean-up” around
the AUX connector, got it working ... and it still took THAT long to
return a replacement. Perhaps tech support was too busy wresting other product
alligators, to get this customer going again ... a total of 4 months, several
unanswered emails and phone calls for status, for such a trivial quick
repair.
I can only assume the facts you were presented, are
confused ... you must be thinking about one of the OTHER unfortunate customers
whose CP4 also got dunked, with the same tragic results – or your staff has
mistaken the repair results from a different returned unit and unfortunately
misreported it to you. Since your staff managed to so quickly and easily
fix the minor dew problem, I wonder why all my vigorous attempts failed to do
the same – I did so to save time and shipping hassles of returning it across the
border, unless absolutely necessary.
Perhaps you power-washed it with something much
stronger, whereas I used a wire brush. Maybe using the CLR
(Calcium-Lime-Rust) household cleaning product, for “rust” removal around the
pins and all the area under the circuit board, would have worked better than my
circuit board cleaners. CLR works well for bath tub rust stains, coffee
urns calcium deposits, and lime efflorescence on basement blocks – so might even
have fixed the CP4 problem.
*******
Per you final comment - Does your own AP observatory CP4
have the luxury of drilled DRAIN holes – unlike many of the missing or
“rubber-stoppered” drain holes, (by default), on ours? Maybe that is why
... as you stated in the reply below ... your CP4 never, ever had problems when
drenched in dew – because the water coming in had escape holes.
If so, please stop advising customers upgrading from CP3 that they can
still (safely) re-attach them, “face up”, on the old mounts RA axle positions –
unless there actually are, “drilled and unplugged” drain holes on the backside
bottom edge.
Users should quickly and easily check their CP4’s for
obvious “dew drains” – whether on new or old model AP mounts, since it may not
yet be too late to prevent already accumulating damage, from possibly leading to
disaster.
So, simply stated, there is now no confusion of the facts. Just wish the
CP4 mess had not come this far, and won’t eventually for others.
Joe
From: chris1011@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2018 11:58 AM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] CP4 is definitely NOT water tight - VERY
suseptible to DEW flooding Just so there's no confusion, the CP4
in question had a deposit of low ohmic value surrounding the pins of the
Auxiliary input. This Aux input is used to stop mount motion in the 2 axes when
the appropriate pins are shorted to common. If enough water accumulates inside
and enough stuff gets deposited between the pins, then the stop motion is
triggered. There was no corrosion of any kind on the board itself or any of the
electronic components. A simple cleaning of the pins restored the normal
operation of the CP4.
There is no Aux input on the CP3, so we never saw any of this
in the older servo controller.
Normally the CP4 is mounted on the side of the mount where
rain cannot enter the connectors. If it's left face up and it rains, then you
probably will get water inside. We get a lot of heavy dew conditions here just
about every clear night. I have had my own scope and mount so covered with water
from dew that it literally runs off the tube like a spigot. Never ever had the
CP4 accumulate any moisture inside.
Rolando
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Hi Joe,
Well, why did it take tech support all of TWO months, after receiving my returned unit in May, to get to thatI'm guessing it’s because A-P has limited staff to work on finding the cause for such unusual failures. They can't stop production just to focus all their attention to solving one issue. Besides, something like this will usually require research and communication without outside facilities to get answers. And the result might be that there is more than one possible reason for the issues you've had with your CP4. I have had my GTOCP4 outside in San Jose for over a year and I haven't seen any sign of the issues you have seen. My CP4 has been mounted in the face up position on my 1200GTO and covered when raining and not in use. California has been hit hard over the last year with raging wildfires that have produced some days with the worst air quality ever recorded in the area I live in. Despite that, maybe something in your Toronto environmental conditions is much harsher than my San Jose conditions? Or, maybe you need to change the way you cover your scope? What I do is simple three layer approach. When rain is coming, or if I anticipate extended non-use, I remove the scope and cover the mount with a large plastic bag (even a 32-gallon trash bag will work). The bag serves as the final dust and moisture barrier. I then place a heavy moving blanket over the bag to absorb any potential moisture. I then put a large, heavy tarp from TarpsOnline over the moving blanket and secure it tightly around the mount and pier with several bungee cords in series as needed. For the tarp I usually choose one of the heavy duty products from tarpsonline.com, like: https://www.tarpsplus.com/super-heavy-duty-silver-black-poly-tarp-sold-individually.html This layered scheme has kept my previous CP3 control boxes and current CP4 in completely corrosive-free condition for over 15 years. Best regards, -Ray Gralak Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver -----Original Message-----
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