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Needing re-do the PE after updating 1200 cp3 L chip to V chip.
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wildwood7711@...
Hi All, Can I do my PE in the house? As long as the mount is pointed to the Celestial Equator and near the Meridian (Park 3?). I guess I just power the mount and go right into the tools menu and choose 1.) PEM and start Roland's step by step procedure w/ PEMPro. No where does it state the scope must be tracking on a object. Thanks, Mike
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W Hilmo
PEMPro will need to be able to track a star in the camera’s field of view. If it can’t do this, then it won’t work.
So no, you cannot do this in the house. You need to be out under a clear, dark sky.
From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2018 10:12 AM To: ap-gto@... Subject: [ap-gto] Needing re-do the PE after updating 1200 cp3 L chip to V chip.
Hi All, Can I do my PE in the house? As long as the mount is pointed to the Celestial Equator and near the Meridian (Park 3?). I guess I just power the mount and go right into the tools menu and choose 1.) PEM and start Roland's step by step procedure w/ PEMPro. No where does it state the scope must be tracking on a object. Thanks, Mike
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Joe Zeglinski
Hi,
I suspect you may dread being out there in the cold
winter night, capturing raw data for the curve. Luckily, sampling 6 to 8 raw
data cycles will take over an hour anyway, and once started, doesn’t
require your presence at the mount – good time for an indoor coffee break.
Later, even the PEC analysis and final curve fitting can be leisurely done
indoors as well, then just upload the result into the CPx mount
controller.
Programs that calculate the PEC wave pattern on the
gear train teeth variations, need “some kind” of reference. A bouncing star is ideal because it is simple. I suppose it
might be theoretically possible, but impractical – to do the PEC curve
generation in daylight, or even in the house, using a commonly available
“simulated star” or compare successive frames of a room scene (or a precisely
printed target), for their shifting. But it would be less precise and require
much more computer resource. Might even be able to do this with a camera
targeted on Polaris, to eliminate the complications of tracking, PA, cross
winds, and drift from the process – but not a present capability in any PEC
generating software I know of.
So, PEC generation can only be done with a camera
centered on a reference star. Luckily, PemPro doesn’t require a
perfect polar alignment to do this part of the job – it compensates internally
for many things, including an arbitrarily CCD rotation, although a reasonably
close CCD rotational alignment with the axes, and a good initial mount polar
alignment would probably help it producing a slightly more accurate curve. But
such detail isn’t really necessary, since normal “seeing conditions” could
affect guiding more, in spite of a good PEC curve. But, everything helps.
PEC is only needed for imaging and not
for visual use with the mount, since visual use won’t see minor position
variations. Since you will be doing it soon anyway, just be patient and leave
the PEC curve generation for that first night out there under the stars with
your CCD. PemPro makes it easy and indeed fun to do. Joe
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Roland Christen
Might even be able to do this with a camera targeted on Polaris, to eliminate the complications of tracking, The whole idea of generating a PE curve is to measure tracking, so if you aim the camera at the pole, you won't get any data. But not to worry, PEMPro automatically sends your mount to the celestial equator, where the tracking rate of a star is almost exactly sidereal. Any departure measured by PEMPro is then the PE.
Rolando -----Original Message-----
From: 'Joseph Zeglinski' J.Zeglinski@... [ap-gto] To: ap-gto Sent: Sat, Feb 3, 2018 1:16 pm Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Needing re-do the PE after updating 1200 cp3 L chip to V chip. Hi,
I suspect you may dread being out there in the cold
winter night, capturing raw data for the curve. Luckily, sampling 6 to 8 raw
data cycles will take over an hour anyway, and once started, doesn’t
require your presence at the mount – good time for an indoor coffee break.
Later, even the PEC analysis and final curve fitting can be leisurely done
indoors as well, then just upload the result into the CPx mount
controller.
Programs that calculate the PEC wave pattern on the
gear train teeth variations, need “some kind” of reference.
A bouncing star is ideal because it is simple. I suppose it
might be theoretically possible, but impractical – to do the PEC curve
generation in daylight, or even in the house, using a commonly available
“simulated star” or compare successive frames of a room scene (or a precisely
printed target), for their shifting. But it would be less precise and require
much more computer resource. Might even be able to do this with a camera
targeted on Polaris, to eliminate the complications of tracking, PA, cross
winds, and drift from the process – but not a present capability in any PEC
generating software I know of.
So, PEC generation can only be done with a camera
centered on a reference star.
Luckily, PemPro doesn’t require a
perfect polar alignment to do this part of the job – it compensates internally
for many things, including an arbitrarily CCD rotation, although a reasonably
close CCD rotational alignment with the axes, and a good initial mount polar
alignment would probably help it producing a slightly more accurate curve. But
such detail isn’t really necessary, since normal “seeing conditions” could
affect guiding more, in spite of a good PEC curve. But, everything helps.
PEC is only needed for imaging and not
for visual use with the mount, since visual use won’t see minor position
variations. Since you will be doing it soon anyway, just be patient and leave
the PEC curve generation for that first night out there under the stars with
your CCD. PemPro makes it easy and indeed fun to do.
Joe
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Steven
Wade, you've got to 'calibrate' your mount to PemPro to get the results you need. That will require a real star. But after you do that, you can sit in a warm room and 'watch the show' and do the rest of it there. A star is needed. Don't forget to use the Calibration Wizard, and before doing that, set up the Mount Wizard to set the necessary parameters of your mount so PemPro knows what it's looking at. All pretty easy and straight forward really. But you need a star. Steve E
From: ap-gto@... on behalf of 'Wade Hilmo' y.groups@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Saturday, 3 February 2018 1:19 p.m. To: ap-gto@... Subject: RE: [ap-gto] Needing re-do the PE after updating 1200 cp3 L chip to V chip. PEMPro will need to be able to track a star in the camera’s field of view. If it can’t do this, then it won’t work.
So no, you cannot do this in the house. You need to be out under a clear, dark sky.
From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
Hi All, Can I do my PE in the house? As long as the mount is pointed to the Celestial Equator and near the Meridian (Park 3?). I guess I just power the mount and go right into the tools menu and choose 1.) PEM and start Roland's step by step procedure w/ PEMPro. No where does it state the scope must be tracking on a object. Thanks, Mike
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Joe Zeglinski
Rolando,
I was “imagining” ... that it could be possible, (some
day, with some new PemPro approach), to just watch Polaris jump up & down ,
even with the mount at relative standstill. Polaris is an easy, almost
stationary target, for the hour of curve raw data capture. Tracking the pole
might be (almost) unnecessary. If Polaris drifts a tad sideway, the program
wouldn’t care, since it is looking for absolute amplitudes, not celestial drift.
In effect, Polaris acts like a “simulated star accessory device”, some of us
use. All we are after is seeing the “amplitude” and direction of the star’s
perfectly vertical jitter, to determine the period in each cycle, and amount of
drift caused by the two spur gears. It wouldn’t even be affected by scope load
imbalance and other mount dynamics. Following the sky across the meridian would
become unnecessary, by such method.
Once the PEC curve is generated, tracking becomes second
nature – it wouldn’t really be needed “during” data gathering.
Or, possibly I haven't clearly explained my idea and we are not
understanding each other.
No matter – just a thought, for future directions.
Joe
From: chris1011@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2018 2:54 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Needing re-do the PE after updating 1200 cp3 L
chip to V chip. Might even be able to do this with a camera targeted on Polaris, to eliminate the complications of tracking, The whole idea of generating a PE curve is to measure
tracking, so if you aim the camera at the pole, you won't get any data. But not
to worry, PEMPro automatically sends your mount to the celestial equator, where
the tracking rate of a star is almost exactly sidereal. Any departure measured
by PEMPro is then the PE.
Rolando
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MCDERMOTT MICHAEL <wildwood7711@...>
Wow, thanks for the all the information. Just maybe another warm (50 degree) night will be coming up soon and clear. I just downloaded PEMPro 3. Looking forward to this! Who says you can't teach a old dog new tricks! -Mike
On Saturday, February 3, 2018 2:00 PM, "Steven Elliott steven447@... [ap-gto]" wrote: Wade,
you've got to 'calibrate' your mount to PemPro to get the results you need. That will require a real star. But after you do that, you can sit in a warm room and 'watch the show' and do the rest of it there. A star is
needed. Don't forget to use the Calibration Wizard, and before doing that, set up the Mount Wizard to set the necessary parameters of your mount so PemPro knows what it's looking at. All pretty easy and straight forward really. But you need a star.
Steve E
NZ From: ap-gto@... on behalf of 'Wade Hilmo' y.groups@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Saturday, 3 February 2018 1:19 p.m. To: ap-gto@... Subject: RE: [ap-gto] Needing re-do the PE after updating 1200 cp3 L chip to V chip. PEMPro will need to be able to track a star in the camera’s field of view. If it can’t do this, then it won’t work.
So no, you cannot do this in the house. You need to be out under a clear, dark sky.
From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2018 10:12 AM To: ap-gto@... Subject: [ap-gto] Needing re-do the PE after updating 1200 cp3 L chip to V chip. Hi All, Can I do my PE in the house? As long as the mount is pointed to the Celestial Equator and near the Meridian (Park 3?). I guess I just power the mount and go right into the tools menu and choose 1.) PEM and start Roland's step by step procedure
w/ PEMPro. No where does it state the scope must be tracking on a object. Thanks, Mike
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Roland Christen
just watch Polaris jump up & down Polaris won't jump up and down, even if you push the forward reverse buttons on the keypad at 16x.
Rolando -----Original Message-----
From: 'Joseph Zeglinski' J.Zeglinski@... [ap-gto] To: ap-gto Sent: Sat, Feb 3, 2018 2:25 pm Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Needing re-do the PE after updating 1200 cp3 L chip to V chip. Rolando,
I was “imagining” ... that it could be possible, (some
day, with some new PemPro approach), to just watch Polaris jump up & down ,
even with the mount at relative standstill. Polaris is an easy, almost
stationary target, for the hour of curve raw data capture. Tracking the pole
might be (almost) unnecessary. If Polaris drifts a tad sideway, the program
wouldn’t care, since it is looking for absolute amplitudes, not celestial drift.
In effect, Polaris acts like a “simulated star accessory device”, some of us
use. All we are after is seeing the “amplitude” and direction of the star’s
perfectly vertical jitter, to determine the period in each cycle, and amount of
drift caused by the two spur gears. It wouldn’t even be affected by scope load
imbalance and other mount dynamics. Following the sky across the meridian would
become unnecessary, by such method.
Once the PEC curve is generated, tracking becomes second
nature – it wouldn’t really be needed “during” data gathering.
Or, possibly I haven't clearly explained my idea and we are not
understanding each other.
No matter – just a thought, for future directions.
Joe
From: chris1011@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2018 2:54 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Needing re-do the PE after updating 1200 cp3 L
chip to V chip.
Might even be able to do this with a camera targeted on Polaris, to eliminate the complications of tracking, The whole idea of generating a PE curve is to measure
tracking, so if you aim the camera at the pole, you won't get any data. But not
to worry, PEMPro automatically sends your mount to the celestial equator, where
the tracking rate of a star is almost exactly sidereal. Any departure measured
by PEMPro is then the PE.
Rolando
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Worsel
Mike
An approach that DOES allow inside use is remote control of your outside PC. This is quite common for permanently mounted systems. The inside PC connects to the outside PC using a home network. This can be either via WiFi (can be slow at times) or via hardwired cable (requires a router or ad-hoc connection) or via household wiring (requires Powerline adapters). Regardless of the network, there are any number of suitable software packages, including TightVNC, MS Remote Desktop, TeamViewe, RealVNC. We each have our preferences. There is no perfect approach...if there was, we would all have the same setup...just like telescopes! Bryan
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Just another one of my random product brainstorming ideas here. AP develops an absolute encoder assembly that can be placed on the separation dovetail of an AP mount's RA axis (900, 1100, 1200, 1600, 3600) when the mount is separated in half. Combined with a special AP program, will automatically read the PE of the RA gearing and write the PEM curve to a CP4. No sky, stars, seeing, camera or other bits required and can be done inside at any time, day or night. AP can offer the fully automatic "bench-PEM-programmer" for sale and/or lease. Use it and optionally return it for a partial deposit refund. And if it is thin and has dovetails on both sides, can possibly be left in place on 900 and 1200 mounts for high-precision RA tracking and positioning. Just a random idea.
On Feb 3, 2018 10:52 AM, "chris1011@... [ap-gto]" <ap-gto@...> wrote:
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MCDERMOTT MICHAEL <wildwood7711@...>
I have a QHY8, also have a Orion 80ed and a Astro-Physics 178 and a Meade 14" does it matter which scope would give the best PE readings. Also one more question if I change the scope after I do the PE, do I need to do it again?
On Saturday, February 3, 2018 3:03 PM, "bryancashion@... [ap-gto]" wrote: Mike An approach that DOES allow inside use is remote control of your outside PC. This is quite common for permanently mounted systems. The inside PC connects to the outside PC using a home network. This can be either via WiFi (can be slow at times) or via hardwired cable (requires a router or ad-hoc connection) or via household wiring (requires Powerline adapters). Regardless of the network, there are any number of suitable software packages, including TightVNC, MS Remote Desktop, TeamViewe, RealVNC. We each have our preferences. There is no perfect approach...if there was, we would all have the same setup...just like telescopes! Bryan
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Roland Christen
Scope has no effect on PE. Periodic error is a function of the worm, not of anything else attached to the mount. Best data of course is taken with the scope of the longest focal length, BUT sometimes an SCT will introduce its own errors such as when the mirror shifts, and you definitely don't want bogus data for PE correction. In your case either the 178 refractor or the 80mm refractor would give better data (more consistent data).
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Rolando
-----Original Message----- From: MCDERMOTT MICHAEL wildwood7711@... [ap-gto] To: ap-gto Sent: Sat, Feb 3, 2018 4:07 pm Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Needing re-do the PE after updating 1200 cp3 L chip to V chip. I have a QHY8, also have a Orion 80ed and a Astro-Physics 178 and a Meade 14" does it matter which scope would give the best PE readings. Also one more question if I change the scope after I do the PE, do I need to do it again?
On Saturday, February 3, 2018 3:03 PM, "bryancashion@... [ap-gto]" gto@...> wrote:
Mike
An approach that DOES allow inside use is remote control of your outside PC. This is quite common for permanently mounted systems.
The inside PC connects to the outside PC using a home network. This can be either via WiFi (can be slow at times) or via hardwired cable (requires a router or ad-hoc connection) or via household wiring (requires Powerline adapters). Regardless of the network, there are any number of suitable software packages, including TightVNC, MS Remote Desktop, TeamViewe, RealVNC. We each have our preferences. There is no perfect approach...if there was, we would all have the same setup...just like telescopes!
Bryan
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W Hilmo
You are technically right that the operator doesn't need to stay outside
with the mount while PEMPro is doing its thing. But given the following context from the original question: "No where does it state the scope must be tracking on a object" The question is asking whether the *mount* needs to be outside or not. It does. Or at least it needs a clear view to the stars in the appropriate areas of the sky. From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...] Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2018 12:01 PM To: ap-gto@... Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Needing re-do the PE after updating 1200 cp3 L chip to V chip. Wade, you've got to 'calibrate' your mount to PemPro to get the results you need. That will require a real star. But after you do that, you can sit in a warm room and 'watch the show' and do the rest of it there. A star is needed. Don't forget to use the Calibration Wizard, and before doing that, set up the Mount Wizard to set the necessary parameters of your mount so PemPro knows what it's looking at. All pretty easy and straight forward really. But you need a star. Steve E NZ _____ From: ap-gto@... <ap-gto@...> on behalf of 'Wade Hilmo' y.groups@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...> Sent: Saturday, 3 February 2018 1:19 p.m. To: ap-gto@... Subject: RE: [ap-gto] Needing re-do the PE after updating 1200 cp3 L chip to V chip. PEMPro will need to be able to track a star in the camera's field of view. If it can't do this, then it won't work. So no, you cannot do this in the house. You need to be out under a clear, dark sky. From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...] Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2018 10:12 AM To: ap-gto@... Subject: [ap-gto] Needing re-do the PE after updating 1200 cp3 L chip to V chip. Hi All, Can I do my PE in the house? As long as the mount is pointed to the Celestial Equator and near the Meridian (Park 3?). I guess I just power the mount and go right into the tools menu and choose 1.) PEM and start Roland's step by step procedure w/ PEMPro. No where does it state the scope must be tracking on a object. Thanks, Mike
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Suresh Mohan
You need to track on a star . That too choose a day with good seeing
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Suresh
On 03-Feb-2018, at 11:42 PM, wildwood7711@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...> wrote:
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