Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?


Joe Zeglinski
 

Hi Marj,

Looking at the new AP-1600 picture, the RA axle section (housing) seems truncated shorter than on an AP-1200, so the standard cwt bar might also sit a few inches higher up the axle, thus less leverage. In order to be able to actually mount “upto” a gargantuan 220 lb (with accessories) OTA, and in order to still have enough bar space for all its counterweights, have you considered offering an 7-inch “diameter” cwt instead of limiting it to the current AP standard 6" (nominal) inch?

Based on past calculations, for the same thickness, an 7” diameter cwt should give you a 30 lb weight, or an 8” diameter 40 lb cwt. - in the same space and bar hole diameter – assuming larger stainless steel bar stock is available.
However, steel toe construction boots might become a safety accessory for such heavy weights

The downside might be that at higher latitude set-ups, the larger cwt might approach the mount a bit closer, when past the meridian.

Joe Z.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


divenuts
 

AND if I could additionally ask. Is the cwt bar the same size as the 1200 and the cwt bar extention that fits the 1200 also fit the 1600.
Thanks,
Chuck/divenuts

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Zeglinski" <J.Zeglinski@rogers.com>
To: <ap-gto@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 1:31 PM
Subject: [ap-gto] Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?


Hi Marj,

Looking at the new AP-1600 picture, the RA axle section (housing) seems truncated shorter than on an AP-1200, so the standard cwt bar might also sit a few inches higher up the axle, thus less leverage. In order to be able to actually mount “upto” a gargantuan 220 lb (with accessories) OTA, and in order to still have enough bar space for all its counterweights, have you considered offering an 7-inch “diameter” cwt instead of limiting it to the current AP standard 6" (nominal) inch?

Based on past calculations, for the same thickness, an 7” diameter cwt should give you a 30 lb weight, or an 8” diameter 40 lb cwt. - in the same space and bar hole diameter – assuming larger stainless steel bar stock is available.
However, steel toe construction boots might become a safety accessory for such heavy weights

The downside might be that at higher latitude set-ups, the larger cwt might approach the mount a bit closer, when past the meridian.

Joe Z.





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Joe Zeglinski
 

I should have added - the way around the larger diameter cwt. possibly hitting the mount (at high latitudes). Since it will use the same ID cwt. bar, one could trade off leverage of using a standard 6" cwt. at the UPPER bar, where it might hit the mount, for using the larger diameter (7" or 8") cwts, LOWER down, where they will miss. The larger diameter cwts., slightly lower down, will also quite effectively regain any lost leverage of the smaller 6" diameter cwt. at the top.

Also, if stainless steel bar stock were unavailable, or not be cost effective to special order, consider a line of "Green Counterweights".
Let's recycle the lead in those "billions" of dead car batteries, into extra-heavy filler, poured into stainless steel cwt. "SHELLS". You might also get more weight/cu in. in the identical dimension solid stainless steel counterweights.

Joe Z.

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Zeglinski
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 1:31 PM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ap-gto] Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?

Hi Marj,

Looking at the new AP-1600 picture, the RA axle section (housing) seems truncated shorter than on an AP-1200, so the standard cwt bar might also sit a few inches higher up the axle, thus less leverage. In order to be able to actually mount “upto” a gargantuan 220 lb (with accessories) OTA, and in order to still have enough bar space for all its counterweights, have you considered offering an 7-inch “diameter” cwt instead of limiting it to the current AP standard 6" (nominal) inch?

Based on past calculations, for the same thickness, an 7” diameter cwt should give you a 30 lb weight, or an 8” diameter 40 lb cwt. - in the same space and bar hole diameter – assuming larger stainless steel bar stock is available.
However, steel toe construction boots might become a safety accessory for such heavy weights

The downside might be that at higher latitude set-ups, the larger cwt might approach the mount a bit closer, when past the meridian.

Joe Z.





------------------------------------

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see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-gtoYahoo! Groups Links


Joe Zeglinski
 

I should have added - the way around the larger diameter cwt. possibly
hitting the mount (at high latitudes). Since ALL cwts. will use the same OD cwt.
bar, one could trade off leverage of using a standard 6" cwt. at the UPPER
bar, where it might hit the mount, for using the larger diameter (7" or 8")
cwts, LOWER down, where they will miss. The larger diameter cwts., slightly
lower down, will also quite effectively regain any lost leverage of the
smaller 6" diameter cwt. at the top.

Also, if stainless steel bar stock were unavailable, or not be cost
effective to special order, consider a line of "Green Counterweights".
Let's recycle the lead in those "billions" of dead car batteries, into
extra-heavy filler, poured into stainless steel cwt. "SHELLS". You might
also get more weight/cu in. in the identical dimension solid stainless
steel counterweights.

Joe Z.

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Zeglinski
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 1:31 PM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ap-gto] Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?

Hi Marj,

Looking at the new AP-1600 picture, the RA axle section (housing) seems truncated shorter than on an AP-1200, so the standard cwt bar might also sit a few inches higher up the axle, thus less leverage. In order to be able to actually mount “upto” a gargantuan 220 lb (with accessories) OTA, and in order to still have enough bar space for all its counterweights, have you considered offering an 7-inch “diameter” cwt instead of limiting it to the current AP standard 6" (nominal) inch?

Based on past calculations, for the same thickness, an 7” diameter cwt should give you a 30 lb weight, or an 8” diameter 40 lb cwt. - in the same space and bar hole diameter – assuming larger stainless steel bar stock is available.
However, steel toe construction boots might become a safety accessory for such heavy weights

The downside might be that at higher latitude set-ups, the larger cwt might approach the mount a bit closer, when past the meridian.

Joe Z.





------------------------------------

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roywellington
 

Joe,

Balancing 110 pounds on an AP1200 with three weights not all the way out the extender and (eyeballing) space for maybe six more weights (true most would be close in but not all) seems to be quite enough except for one of those squattish 24in Ricardi-Honders leviathans.

This almost certainly means the next R-H will be 20in only. Where do I sign up?

Roy

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Zeglinski" <J.Zeglinski@...> wrote:

I should have added - the way around the larger diameter cwt. possibly
hitting the mount (at high latitudes). Since ALL cwts. will use the same OD
cwt.
bar, one could trade off leverage of using a standard 6" cwt. at the UPPER
bar, where it might hit the mount, for using the larger diameter (7" or 8")
cwts, LOWER down, where they will miss. The larger diameter cwts., slightly
lower down, will also quite effectively regain any lost leverage of the
smaller 6" diameter cwt. at the top.

Also, if stainless steel bar stock were unavailable, or not be cost
effective to special order, consider a line of "Green Counterweights".
Let's recycle the lead in those "billions" of dead car batteries, into
extra-heavy filler, poured into stainless steel cwt. "SHELLS". You might
also get more weight/cu in. in the identical dimension solid stainless
steel counterweights.

Joe Z.

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Zeglinski
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 1:31 PM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ap-gto] Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?

Hi Marj,

Looking at the new AP-1600 picture, the RA axle section (housing) seems
truncated shorter than on an AP-1200, so the standard cwt bar might also
sit a few inches higher up the axle, thus less leverage. In order to be able
to actually mount “upto� a gargantuan 220 lb (with accessories) OTA, and in
order to still have enough bar space for all its counterweights, have you
considered offering an 7-inch “diameter� cwt instead of limiting it to the
current AP standard 6" (nominal) inch?

Based on past calculations, for the same thickness, an 7� diameter cwt
should give you a 30 lb weight, or an 8� diameter 40 lb cwt. - in the
same space and bar hole diameter â€" assuming larger stainless steel bar stock
is available.
However, steel toe construction boots might become a safety accessory for
such heavy weights

The downside might be that at higher latitude set-ups, the larger cwt
might approach the mount a bit closer, when past the meridian.

Joe Z.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Joe Zeglinski
 

Roy,

Don't see where you got 110 lbs and AP-1200.
Granted, "old" AP-1200 carried that without breaking into a sweat, with bar space to spare.

But, my post was actually about the new AP-1600, I was actually wondering about fitting 220 lbs. of "counterweights" on the STANDARD bar, to handle new maximum OTA load capacity on the AP-1600. I just can't envisage 220 lbs made up from AP-18 lb cwts, and still being able to fit on an 18.5" bar.

Just as an exercise, to prove it:
Using my own "Counterweights Calculator" Spreadsheet, and configuring a 220 lb (20" diameter OTA), on an AP-1200 as a stand-in, (since I don't have dimensions for the AP-1600 yet), I found that with just the standard 18.5" bar alone, there is room for just six AP-18's - leaving ONLY 1/2 inch of bar to spare.
Even with this fully occupied bar, the scope is still 106.33 lbs too heavy!
If you want torque value, the 220 lb OTA would still be unbalanced by 1,978.74 inch-lbs.
So, that is why I can't see a 220 lb scope being able to use the "Standard AP-1200 bar" (alone), and still using "Standard" AP counterweights.

However, to prove to myself the the benefit of new AP counterweights, I reran my calculations for the fully loaded 220 lb OTA (using AP-1200 dimensions as a stand-in)
- BUT this time ... I used the AP (8.75", 6.53 lb) BAR EXTENDER, with "potentially NEW", AP 30 lb (7") & 40 lb (8") counterweights, to see what it might take, to reach near equilibrium for such a heavy max'd out OTA.

Surprisingly, a 220 lb OTA would indeed balance, (with all cwts positioned at the BOTTOM of the bar), and using one of these set-ups:

(a) 8 x AP-18 lb + one AP-10 lb ... Standard + EXD BAR - 2.08 lbs cwt-heavy, & 1.25" of empty bar remaining at the top
- or -
(b) 4 x AP-30 lb .......................... Standard + EXD BAR - 4.72 lbs cwt-heavy, & 15.25" of empty bar above all weights.
- or -
(c) 5 x AP-30 lb ........................... Standard + EXD BAR - 0.26 lbs cwt-heavy, & 7.25" of empty bar above all weights - BUT all cwts. moved up 5" from stop.
- or -
(d) 5 x AP-40 lb + one AP-18 lb ... Standard - NO EXD - 8.85 lbs cwt-heavy, & 0.5" of empty bar to spare at the top of all cwts. - no adjustment space!


So, if AP were to manufacture 7" diameter (30 lb) counterweights, just for the "maximum load capacity" AP-1600 situation ... then configuration (c), with five of these at middle of the (Extended) bar, would not only perfectly balance a 220 lb (20" diameter) OTA, it would also leave about a total of 12.5" of adjustment space on the bar, for accessories to be added or removed.

In fact, if all 5 of these 30-lb weights were positioned right at the bottom of the bar, this set-up would be enough counterweight to carry & balance another 44.56 lbs of CCD camera at the back of an RC-14 shaped OTA. Of course, the OTA load would then be whopping 265 lbs, but Roland's mounts seem to have "extra capacity" beyond spec.

NB: In my spreadsheet, I assumed a fictitious 20" diameter 220 lb OTA, mounted on an "AP DOVELM162", for these calculations, with AP-1200 "Stiction" & size dimensions, and set-up for 44 deg. Latitude.
But, the results are indicative of what "might" be achieved.

Joe Z.

-----Original Message-----
From: roywellington
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 12:37 AM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?

Joe,

Balancing 110 pounds on an AP1200 with three weights not all the way out the extender and (eyeballing) space for maybe six more weights (true most would be close in but not all) seems to be quite enough except for one of those squattish 24in Ricardi-Honders leviathans.

This almost certainly means the next R-H will be 20in only. Where do I sign up?

Roy


fernandorivera3
 

Hi, Joe

FYI, if someone wishes to use heavier counterweights to fit the 1.875" ctw shaft, there are 21.7# weights from Robin Casady, & 40# weights from PlaneWave Instruments, available for purchase.

Best regards

Fernando

Sent from my MOTOROLA ATRIX™ 2 on AT&T

-----Original message-----
From: Joe Zeglinski <J.Zeglinski@rogers.com>
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, May 3, 2012 08:30:17 GMT+00:00
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?

Roy,

Don't see where you got 110 lbs and AP-1200.
Granted, "old" AP-1200 carried that without breaking into a sweat, with bar
space to spare.

But, my post was actually about the new AP-1600, I was actually
wondering about fitting 220 lbs. of "counterweights" on the STANDARD bar,
to handle new maximum OTA load capacity on the AP-1600. I just can't
envisage 220 lbs made up from AP-18 lb cwts, and still being able to fit on
an 18.5" bar.

Just as an exercise, to prove it:
Using my own "Counterweights Calculator" Spreadsheet, and configuring a
220 lb (20" diameter OTA), on an AP-1200 as a stand-in, (since I don't have
dimensions for the AP-1600 yet), I found that with just the standard 18.5"
bar alone, there is room for just six AP-18's - leaving ONLY 1/2 inch of
bar to spare.
Even with this fully occupied bar, the scope is still 106.33 lbs too
heavy!
If you want torque value, the 220 lb OTA would still be unbalanced by
1,978.74 inch-lbs.
So, that is why I can't see a 220 lb scope being able to use the "Standard
AP-1200 bar" (alone), and still using "Standard" AP counterweights.

However, to prove to myself the the benefit of new AP counterweights, I
reran my calculations for the fully loaded 220 lb OTA (using AP-1200
dimensions as a stand-in)
- BUT this time ... I used the AP (8.75", 6.53 lb) BAR EXTENDER, with
"potentially NEW", AP 30 lb (7") & 40 lb (8") counterweights, to see what
it might take, to reach near equilibrium for s


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Dean S
 

Marj showed me a picture of the mount while it was being tested. They had the 175 and RH, and maybe even something else on it with a long shaft full of weights. Looked like it had an extension on it best I could tell. She said the mount performed perfectly loaded to the max.

And what was cool looking was that the new scope and mount where still unfinished, bare aluminum. Perhaps she or Roland could post that picture??

Dean

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Zeglinski
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 4:28 AM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?

Roy,

Don't see where you got 110 lbs and AP-1200.
Granted, "old" AP-1200 carried that without breaking into a sweat, with bar
space to spare.

But, my post was actually about the new AP-1600, I was actually
wondering about fitting 220 lbs. of "counterweights" on the STANDARD bar,
to handle new maximum OTA load capacity on the AP-1600. I just can't
envisage 220 lbs made up from AP-18 lb cwts, and still being able to fit on
an 18.5" bar.

Just as an exercise, to prove it:
Using my own "Counterweights Calculator" Spreadsheet, and configuring a
220 lb (20" diameter OTA), on an AP-1200 as a stand-in, (since I don't have
dimensions for the AP-1600 yet), I found that with just the standard 18.5"
bar alone, there is room for just six AP-18's - leaving ONLY 1/2 inch of
bar to spare.
Even with this fully occupied bar, the scope is still 106.33 lbs too
heavy!
If you want torque value, the 220 lb OTA would still be unbalanced by
1,978.74 inch-lbs.
So, that is why I can't see a 220 lb scope being able to use the "Standard
AP-1200 bar" (alone), and still using "Standard" AP counterweights.

However, to prove to myself the the benefit of new AP counterweights, I
reran my calculations for the fully loaded 220 lb OTA (using AP-1200
dimensions as a stand-in)
- BUT this time ... I used the AP (8.75", 6.53 lb) BAR EXTENDER, with
"potentially NEW", AP 30 lb (7") & 40 lb (8") counterweights, to see what
it might take, to reach near equilibrium for such a heavy max'd out OTA.

Surprisingly, a 220 lb OTA would indeed balance, (with all cwts positioned
at the BOTTOM of the bar), and using one of these set-ups:

(a) 8 x AP-18 lb + one AP-10 lb ... Standard + EXD BAR - 2.08 lbs
cwt-heavy, & 1.25" of empty bar remaining at the top
- or -
(b) 4 x AP-30 lb .......................... Standard + EXD BAR - 4.72
lbs cwt-heavy, & 15.25" of empty bar above all weights.
- or -
(c) 5 x AP-30 lb ........................... Standard + EXD BAR - 0.26
lbs cwt-heavy, & 7.25" of empty bar above all weights - BUT all cwts. moved
up 5" from stop.
- or -
(d) 5 x AP-40 lb + one AP-18 lb ... Standard - NO EXD - 8.85 lbs
cwt-heavy, & 0.5" of empty bar to spare at the top of all cwts. - no
adjustment space!


So, if AP were to manufacture 7" diameter (30 lb) counterweights, just
for the "maximum load capacity" AP-1600 situation ... then configuration
(c), with five of these at middle of the (Extended) bar, would not only
perfectly balance a 220 lb (20" diameter) OTA, it would also leave about a
total of 12.5" of adjustment space on the bar, for accessories to be added
or removed.

In fact, if all 5 of these 30-lb weights were positioned right at the
bottom of the bar, this set-up would be enough counterweight to carry &
balance another 44.56 lbs of CCD camera at the back of an RC-14 shaped
OTA. Of course, the OTA load would then be whopping 265 lbs, but Roland's
mounts seem to have "extra capacity" beyond spec.

NB: In my spreadsheet, I assumed a fictitious 20" diameter 220 lb OTA,
mounted on an "AP DOVELM162", for these calculations, with AP-1200
"Stiction" & size dimensions, and set-up for 44 deg. Latitude.
But, the results are indicative of what "might" be achieved.

Joe Z.

-----Original Message-----
From: roywellington
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 12:37 AM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?

Joe,

Balancing 110 pounds on an AP1200 with three weights not all the way out the
extender and (eyeballing) space for maybe six more weights (true most would
be close in but not all) seems to be quite enough except for one of those
squattish 24in Ricardi-Honders leviathans.

This almost certainly means the next R-H will be 20in only. Where do I sign
up?

Roy



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eja24601
 

Saw that pic, too. It also had the Maksutov in addition to the 175 and RH. Shweet! :)

Eric

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Dean S" <dean@...> wrote:

Marj showed me a picture of the mount while it was being tested. They had
the 175 and RH, and maybe even something else on it with a long shaft full
of weights. Looked like it had an extension on it best I could tell. She
said the mount performed perfectly loaded to the max.

And what was cool looking was that the new scope and mount where still
unfinished, bare aluminum. Perhaps she or Roland could post that picture??

Dean



-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Zeglinski
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 4:28 AM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?

Roy,

Don't see where you got 110 lbs and AP-1200.
Granted, "old" AP-1200 carried that without breaking into a sweat, with bar
space to spare.

But, my post was actually about the new AP-1600, I was actually
wondering about fitting 220 lbs. of "counterweights" on the STANDARD bar,
to handle new maximum OTA load capacity on the AP-1600. I just can't
envisage 220 lbs made up from AP-18 lb cwts, and still being able to fit on
an 18.5" bar.

Just as an exercise, to prove it:
Using my own "Counterweights Calculator" Spreadsheet, and configuring a
220 lb (20" diameter OTA), on an AP-1200 as a stand-in, (since I don't have
dimensions for the AP-1600 yet), I found that with just the standard 18.5"
bar alone, there is room for just six AP-18's - leaving ONLY 1/2 inch of
bar to spare.
Even with this fully occupied bar, the scope is still 106.33 lbs too
heavy!
If you want torque value, the 220 lb OTA would still be unbalanced by
1,978.74 inch-lbs.
So, that is why I can't see a 220 lb scope being able to use the "Standard
AP-1200 bar" (alone), and still using "Standard" AP counterweights.

However, to prove to myself the the benefit of new AP counterweights, I
reran my calculations for the fully loaded 220 lb OTA (using AP-1200
dimensions as a stand-in)
- BUT this time ... I used the AP (8.75", 6.53 lb) BAR EXTENDER, with
"potentially NEW", AP 30 lb (7") & 40 lb (8") counterweights, to see what
it might take, to reach near equilibrium for such a heavy max'd out OTA.

Surprisingly, a 220 lb OTA would indeed balance, (with all cwts positioned
at the BOTTOM of the bar), and using one of these set-ups:

(a) 8 x AP-18 lb + one AP-10 lb ... Standard + EXD BAR - 2.08 lbs
cwt-heavy, & 1.25" of empty bar remaining at the top
- or -
(b) 4 x AP-30 lb .......................... Standard + EXD BAR - 4.72
lbs cwt-heavy, & 15.25" of empty bar above all weights.
- or -
(c) 5 x AP-30 lb ........................... Standard + EXD BAR - 0.26
lbs cwt-heavy, & 7.25" of empty bar above all weights - BUT all cwts. moved
up 5" from stop.
- or -
(d) 5 x AP-40 lb + one AP-18 lb ... Standard - NO EXD - 8.85 lbs
cwt-heavy, & 0.5" of empty bar to spare at the top of all cwts. - no
adjustment space!


So, if AP were to manufacture 7" diameter (30 lb) counterweights, just
for the "maximum load capacity" AP-1600 situation ... then configuration
(c), with five of these at middle of the (Extended) bar, would not only
perfectly balance a 220 lb (20" diameter) OTA, it would also leave about a
total of 12.5" of adjustment space on the bar, for accessories to be added
or removed.

In fact, if all 5 of these 30-lb weights were positioned right at the
bottom of the bar, this set-up would be enough counterweight to carry &
balance another 44.56 lbs of CCD camera at the back of an RC-14 shaped
OTA. Of course, the OTA load would then be whopping 265 lbs, but Roland's
mounts seem to have "extra capacity" beyond spec.

NB: In my spreadsheet, I assumed a fictitious 20" diameter 220 lb OTA,
mounted on an "AP DOVELM162", for these calculations, with AP-1200
"Stiction" & size dimensions, and set-up for 44 deg. Latitude.
But, the results are indicative of what "might" be achieved.

Joe Z.

-----Original Message-----
From: roywellington
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 12:37 AM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?

Joe,

Balancing 110 pounds on an AP1200 with three weights not all the way out the
extender and (eyeballing) space for maybe six more weights (true most would
be close in but not all) seems to be quite enough except for one of those
squattish 24in Ricardi-Honders leviathans.

This almost certainly means the next R-H will be 20in only. Where do I sign
up?

Roy



------------------------------------

To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-gto list
see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-gtoYahoo! Groups Links


Joe Zeglinski
 

Thanks Fernando,

That is good information.
While looking for heavier counterweights for my RC14, I did buy a couple of those 21.7 lb Cassady's. I didn't know that Planewave has the 40's, for the same AP shaft diameter.I thought they used a different shaft size. I will check into that.

Surely, there must be "uncommon non-advertised" huge cwts for the AP-3600. That should help solve the (potential) AP-1600 desire of a much larger cwt on a short AP standard bar.

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Fernando Rivera
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 7:12 AM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?

Hi, Joe

FYI, if someone wishes to use heavier counterweights to fit the 1.875" ctw shaft, there are 21.7# weights from Robin Casady, & 40# weights from PlaneWave Instruments, available for purchase.

Best regards

Fernando

Sent from my MOTOROLA ATRIX™ 2 on AT&T


 

The photo shows the 1600 w/ the new 175mm StarFire, 305mm Riccardi-Honders and 305mm Mak-Cas on a special plate we made for the test. The instrument weight exceeded 220 lbs. It was quite impressive! Both the mount and 175 were under test at the time and were not painted.

I will try to post the photo tomorrow. Roland and I are on the road outside Toledo, heading home. We spent a few days with his family in NY after NEAF. We will be in the office tomorrow.

Marj Christen

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Dean S" <dean@...> wrote:

Marj showed me a picture of the mount while it was being tested. They had
the 175 and RH, and maybe even something else on it with a long shaft full
of weights. Looked like it had an extension on it best I could tell. She
said the mount performed perfectly loaded to the max.

And what was cool looking was that the new scope and mount where still
unfinished, bare aluminum. Perhaps she or Roland could post that picture??

Dean



-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Zeglinski
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 4:28 AM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?

Roy,

Don't see where you got 110 lbs and AP-1200.
Granted, "old" AP-1200 carried that without breaking into a sweat, with bar
space to spare.

But, my post was actually about the new AP-1600, I was actually
wondering about fitting 220 lbs. of "counterweights" on the STANDARD bar,
to handle new maximum OTA load capacity on the AP-1600. I just can't
envisage 220 lbs made up from AP-18 lb cwts, and still being able to fit on
an 18.5" bar.

Just as an exercise, to prove it:
Using my own "Counterweights Calculator" Spreadsheet, and configuring a
220 lb (20" diameter OTA), on an AP-1200 as a stand-in, (since I don't have
dimensions for the AP-1600 yet), I found that with just the standard 18.5"
bar alone, there is room for just six AP-18's - leaving ONLY 1/2 inch of
bar to spare.
Even with this fully occupied bar, the scope is still 106.33 lbs too
heavy!
If you want torque value, the 220 lb OTA would still be unbalanced by
1,978.74 inch-lbs.
So, that is why I can't see a 220 lb scope being able to use the "Standard
AP-1200 bar" (alone), and still using "Standard" AP counterweights.

However, to prove to myself the the benefit of new AP counterweights, I
reran my calculations for the fully loaded 220 lb OTA (using AP-1200
dimensions as a stand-in)
- BUT this time ... I used the AP (8.75", 6.53 lb) BAR EXTENDER, with
"potentially NEW", AP 30 lb (7") & 40 lb (8") counterweights, to see what
it might take, to reach near equilibrium for such a heavy max'd out OTA.

Surprisingly, a 220 lb OTA would indeed balance, (with all cwts positioned
at the BOTTOM of the bar), and using one of these set-ups:

(a) 8 x AP-18 lb + one AP-10 lb ... Standard + EXD BAR - 2.08 lbs
cwt-heavy, & 1.25" of empty bar remaining at the top
- or -
(b) 4 x AP-30 lb .......................... Standard + EXD BAR - 4.72
lbs cwt-heavy, & 15.25" of empty bar above all weights.
- or -
(c) 5 x AP-30 lb ........................... Standard + EXD BAR - 0.26
lbs cwt-heavy, & 7.25" of empty bar above all weights - BUT all cwts. moved
up 5" from stop.
- or -
(d) 5 x AP-40 lb + one AP-18 lb ... Standard - NO EXD - 8.85 lbs
cwt-heavy, & 0.5" of empty bar to spare at the top of all cwts. - no
adjustment space!


So, if AP were to manufacture 7" diameter (30 lb) counterweights, just
for the "maximum load capacity" AP-1600 situation ... then configuration
(c), with five of these at middle of the (Extended) bar, would not only
perfectly balance a 220 lb (20" diameter) OTA, it would also leave about a
total of 12.5" of adjustment space on the bar, for accessories to be added
or removed.

In fact, if all 5 of these 30-lb weights were positioned right at the
bottom of the bar, this set-up would be enough counterweight to carry &
balance another 44.56 lbs of CCD camera at the back of an RC-14 shaped
OTA. Of course, the OTA load would then be whopping 265 lbs, but Roland's
mounts seem to have "extra capacity" beyond spec.

NB: In my spreadsheet, I assumed a fictitious 20" diameter 220 lb OTA,
mounted on an "AP DOVELM162", for these calculations, with AP-1200
"Stiction" & size dimensions, and set-up for 44 deg. Latitude.
But, the results are indicative of what "might" be achieved.

Joe Z.

-----Original Message-----
From: roywellington
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 12:37 AM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?

Joe,

Balancing 110 pounds on an AP1200 with three weights not all the way out the
extender and (eyeballing) space for maybe six more weights (true most would
be close in but not all) seems to be quite enough except for one of those
squattish 24in Ricardi-Honders leviathans.

This almost certainly means the next R-H will be 20in only. Where do I sign
up?

Roy



------------------------------------

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Joe Zeglinski
 

Thanks again, Fernando,

Got an email reply from PlaneWave, and just as I calculated - their #600111 AP-style 40 lb couterweight is indeed 8" outer diameter, by 3" thick, with an aluminum lock knob. That should shorten the required length of AP cwt bar for heavier OTA's - though shifting or lifting such a heavy weight can be a bit challenging.

I am confident that the AP cwt bar threads are "strong enough" to hold all this counterweight, and more.

I asked, but - unfortunately - PlaneWave has no plans for a 30 lb cwt. .

Joe Z.

-----Original Message-----
From: Fernando Rivera
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 7:12 AM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?

Hi, Joe

FYI, if someone wishes to use heavier counterweights to fit the 1.875" ctw shaft, there are 21.7# weights from Robin Casady, & 40# weights from "PlaneWave Instruments", available for purchase.

Best regards

Fernando


andy <andy@...>
 

Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600
Lately there has been considerable discussion regarding c/weights. For anyone interested I have the ultimate c'weight for sale. Ultimate bring that it is 6 inches long, 6 inches in diameter with a 1.510 hole thru it with 2 1/2 13 locking screws at 45 degrees from each other and weighs according to my bath room scale, 68.5 lbs. That's right 68.5 lbs.

I will not discuss the construction over the networks. If you would be truly interested than call me for the particulars at 575-437-4233 after 10:00 AM and up till midnight, Keep in mind that shipping cost will be horrible. Again DO NOT TRY TO CONTACT ME FOR INFO THRU THE NEWSGROUPS as I will not respond to any questions posted to the news groups.

Andy


 

Hi Joe,

We will evaluate the need for an additional cwt suitable for the increased capacity of the 1600.

Marjorie Christen

On Apr 30, 2012, at 1:31 PM, "Joe Zeglinski" <J.Zeglinski@rogers.com<mailto:J.Zeglinski@rogers.com>> wrote:



Hi Marj,

Looking at the new AP-1600 picture, the RA axle section (housing) seems truncated shorter than on an AP-1200, so the standard cwt bar might also sit a few inches higher up the axle, thus less leverage. In order to be able to actually mount “upto” a gargantuan 220 lb (with accessories) OTA, and in order to still have enough bar space for all its counterweights, have you considered offering an 7-inch “diameter” cwt instead of limiting it to the current AP standard 6" (nominal) inch?

Based on past calculations, for the same thickness, an 7” diameter cwt should give you a 30 lb weight, or an 8” diameter 40 lb cwt. - in the same space and bar hole diameter – assuming larger stainless steel bar stock is available.
However, steel toe construction boots might become a safety accessory for such heavy weights

The downside might be that at higher latitude set-ups, the larger cwt might approach the mount a bit closer, when past the meridian.

Joe Z.


Christopher Erickson
 

Just FYI, USPS Flat Rate Priority Mail within the 50 states goes up to 70
pounds and "If It Fits, It Ships!"

The last time I shipped 50 pounds of couterweights from Hawaii to New York,
it cost me less than sixteen bucks.

This is absolutely the best way to ship counterweights.

International USPS Flat Rate Priority Mail is pretty amazingly cheap too,
but only goes up to 20 pounds. A 17 pound counterweight could be shipped
this way but probably nothing heavier.

Christopher Erickson
Consulting Engineer
Summit Kinetics
Waikoloa, HI 96738
www.summitkinetics.com

-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ap-gto@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
andy
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 9:36 AM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?


Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600
Lately there has been considerable discussion regarding c/weights. For
anyone interested I have the ultimate c'weight for sale. Ultimate bring that
it is 6 inches long, 6 inches in diameter with a 1.510 hole thru it with 2
1/2 13 locking screws at 45 degrees from each other and weighs according to
my bath room scale, 68.5 lbs. That's right 68.5 lbs.

I will not discuss the construction over the networks. If you would be
truly interested than call me for the particulars at 575-437-4233 after
10:00 AM and up till midnight, Keep in mind that shipping cost will be
horrible. Again DO NOT TRY TO CONTACT ME FOR INFO THRU THE NEWSGROUPS as I
will not respond to any questions posted to the news groups.

Andy






------------------------------------

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see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-gtoYahoo! Groups Links



-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2425/4975 - Release Date: 05/03/12


divenuts
 

Don't forget you can get an extention cwt bar, which cost much less than the weights. If the 1600 couldn't use the 1200 weights..that would be a deal breaker for me.
Chuck/divenuts

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Zeglinski" <J.Zeglinski@rogers.com>
To: <ap-gto@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 4:28 AM
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?


Roy,

Don't see where you got 110 lbs and AP-1200.
Granted, "old" AP-1200 carried that without breaking into a sweat, with bar
space to spare.

But, my post was actually about the new AP-1600, I was actually
wondering about fitting 220 lbs. of "counterweights" on the STANDARD bar,
to handle new maximum OTA load capacity on the AP-1600. I just can't
envisage 220 lbs made up from AP-18 lb cwts, and still being able to fit on
an 18.5" bar.

Just as an exercise, to prove it:
Using my own "Counterweights Calculator" Spreadsheet, and configuring a
220 lb (20" diameter OTA), on an AP-1200 as a stand-in, (since I don't have
dimensions for the AP-1600 yet), I found that with just the standard 18.5"
bar alone, there is room for just six AP-18's - leaving ONLY 1/2 inch of
bar to spare.
Even with this fully occupied bar, the scope is still 106.33 lbs too
heavy!
If you want torque value, the 220 lb OTA would still be unbalanced by
1,978.74 inch-lbs.
So, that is why I can't see a 220 lb scope being able to use the "Standard
AP-1200 bar" (alone), and still using "Standard" AP counterweights.

However, to prove to myself the the benefit of new AP counterweights, I
reran my calculations for the fully loaded 220 lb OTA (using AP-1200
dimensions as a stand-in)
- BUT this time ... I used the AP (8.75", 6.53 lb) BAR EXTENDER, with
"potentially NEW", AP 30 lb (7") & 40 lb (8") counterweights, to see what
it might take, to reach near equilibrium for such a heavy max'd out OTA.

Surprisingly, a 220 lb OTA would indeed balance, (with all cwts positioned
at the BOTTOM of the bar), and using one of these set-ups:

(a) 8 x AP-18 lb + one AP-10 lb ... Standard + EXD BAR - 2.08 lbs
cwt-heavy, & 1.25" of empty bar remaining at the top
- or -
(b) 4 x AP-30 lb .......................... Standard + EXD BAR - 4.72
lbs cwt-heavy, & 15.25" of empty bar above all weights.
- or -
(c) 5 x AP-30 lb ........................... Standard + EXD BAR - 0.26
lbs cwt-heavy, & 7.25" of empty bar above all weights - BUT all cwts. moved
up 5" from stop.
- or -
(d) 5 x AP-40 lb + one AP-18 lb ... Standard - NO EXD - 8.85 lbs
cwt-heavy, & 0.5" of empty bar to spare at the top of all cwts. - no
adjustment space!


So, if AP were to manufacture 7" diameter (30 lb) counterweights, just
for the "maximum load capacity" AP-1600 situation ... then configuration
(c), with five of these at middle of the (Extended) bar, would not only
perfectly balance a 220 lb (20" diameter) OTA, it would also leave about a
total of 12.5" of adjustment space on the bar, for accessories to be added
or removed.

In fact, if all 5 of these 30-lb weights were positioned right at the
bottom of the bar, this set-up would be enough counterweight to carry &
balance another 44.56 lbs of CCD camera at the back of an RC-14 shaped
OTA. Of course, the OTA load would then be whopping 265 lbs, but Roland's
mounts seem to have "extra capacity" beyond spec.

NB: In my spreadsheet, I assumed a fictitious 20" diameter 220 lb OTA,
mounted on an "AP DOVELM162", for these calculations, with AP-1200
"Stiction" & size dimensions, and set-up for 44 deg. Latitude.
But, the results are indicative of what "might" be achieved.

Joe Z.

-----Original Message-----
From: roywellington
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 12:37 AM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?

Joe,

Balancing 110 pounds on an AP1200 with three weights not all the way out the
extender and (eyeballing) space for maybe six more weights (true most would
be close in but not all) seems to be quite enough except for one of those
squattish 24in Ricardi-Honders leviathans.

This almost certainly means the next R-H will be 20in only. Where do I sign
up?

Roy



------------------------------------

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see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-gtoYahoo! Groups Links



andy <andy@...>
 

Subject: RE: [ap-gto] Re: Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?



Just FYI, USPS Flat Rate Priority Mail within the 50 states goes up to 70
pounds and "If It Fits, It Ships!"

Can you imagine what would happen if one were to place a 70 lb. c'weight in a thin cardboard box? It probably wouldn't make it out of the post office.


pgwsteve
 

In the A-P pdf file on the 1600, it states it has a 1.875" CW shaft, same as
the 900, 1200 and the optional Mach 1 shaft.



From: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ap-gto@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
divenuts
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 3:47 PM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?





Don't forget you can get an extention cwt bar, which cost much less than the

weights. If the 1600 couldn't use the 1200 weights..that would be a deal
breaker for me.
Chuck/divenuts

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Zeglinski" <J.Zeglinski@rogers.com
<mailto:J.Zeglinski%40rogers.com> >
To: <ap-gto@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> >
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 4:28 AM
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?

Roy,

Don't see where you got 110 lbs and AP-1200.
Granted, "old" AP-1200 carried that without breaking into a sweat, with
bar
space to spare.

But, my post was actually about the new AP-1600, I was actually
wondering about fitting 220 lbs. of "counterweights" on the STANDARD
bar,
to handle new maximum OTA load capacity on the AP-1600. I just can't
envisage 220 lbs made up from AP-18 lb cwts, and still being able to fit
on
an 18.5" bar.

Just as an exercise, to prove it:
Using my own "Counterweights Calculator" Spreadsheet, and configuring
a
220 lb (20" diameter OTA), on an AP-1200 as a stand-in, (since I don't
have
dimensions for the AP-1600 yet), I found that with just the standard 18.5"
bar alone, there is room for just six AP-18's - leaving ONLY 1/2 inch of
bar to spare.
Even with this fully occupied bar, the scope is still 106.33 lbs too
heavy!
If you want torque value, the 220 lb OTA would still be unbalanced by
1,978.74 inch-lbs.
So, that is why I can't see a 220 lb scope being able to use the "Standard
AP-1200 bar" (alone), and still using "Standard" AP counterweights.

However, to prove to myself the the benefit of new AP counterweights,
I
reran my calculations for the fully loaded 220 lb OTA (using AP-1200
dimensions as a stand-in)
- BUT this time ... I used the AP (8.75", 6.53 lb) BAR EXTENDER, with
"potentially NEW", AP 30 lb (7") & 40 lb (8") counterweights, to see what
it might take, to reach near equilibrium for such a heavy max'd out OTA.

Surprisingly, a 220 lb OTA would indeed balance, (with all cwts
positioned
at the BOTTOM of the bar), and using one of these set-ups:

(a) 8 x AP-18 lb + one AP-10 lb ... Standard + EXD BAR - 2.08 lbs
cwt-heavy, & 1.25" of empty bar remaining at the top
- or -
(b) 4 x AP-30 lb .......................... Standard + EXD BAR - 4.72
lbs cwt-heavy, & 15.25" of empty bar above all weights.
- or -
(c) 5 x AP-30 lb ........................... Standard + EXD BAR - 0.26
lbs cwt-heavy, & 7.25" of empty bar above all weights - BUT all cwts.
moved
up 5" from stop.
- or -
(d) 5 x AP-40 lb + one AP-18 lb ... Standard - NO EXD - 8.85 lbs
cwt-heavy, & 0.5" of empty bar to spare at the top of all cwts. - no
adjustment space!


So, if AP were to manufacture 7" diameter (30 lb) counterweights, just
for the "maximum load capacity" AP-1600 situation ... then configuration
(c), with five of these at middle of the (Extended) bar, would not only
perfectly balance a 220 lb (20" diameter) OTA, it would also leave about a
total of 12.5" of adjustment space on the bar, for accessories to be
added
or removed.

In fact, if all 5 of these 30-lb weights were positioned right at the
bottom of the bar, this set-up would be enough counterweight to carry &
balance another 44.56 lbs of CCD camera at the back of an RC-14 shaped
OTA. Of course, the OTA load would then be whopping 265 lbs, but Roland's
mounts seem to have "extra capacity" beyond spec.

NB: In my spreadsheet, I assumed a fictitious 20" diameter 220 lb OTA,
mounted on an "AP DOVELM162", for these calculations, with AP-1200
"Stiction" & size dimensions, and set-up for 44 deg. Latitude.
But, the results are indicative of what "might" be achieved.

Joe Z.

-----Original Message-----
From: roywellington
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 12:37 AM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?

Joe,

Balancing 110 pounds on an AP1200 with three weights not all the way out
the
extender and (eyeballing) space for maybe six more weights (true most
would
be close in but not all) seems to be quite enough except for one of those
squattish 24in Ricardi-Honders leviathans.

This almost certainly means the next R-H will be 20in only. Where do I
sign
up?

Roy



------------------------------------

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see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-gtoYahoo! Groups Links



Christopher Erickson
 

It's called rigid foam and fiberglass tape!

I do it all the time.

Christopher Erickson
Consulting Engineer
Summit Kinetics
Waikoloa, HI 96738
www.summitkinetics.com

-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ap-gto@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
andy
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 10:49 AM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?


Subject: RE: [ap-gto] Re: Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?



Just FYI, USPS Flat Rate Priority Mail within the 50 states goes up to 70
pounds and "If It Fits, It Ships!"

Can you imagine what would happen if one were to place a 70 lb. c'weight
in a thin cardboard box? It probably wouldn't make it out of the post
office.






------------------------------------

To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-gto list
see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-gtoYahoo! Groups Links



-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2425/4975 - Release Date: 05/03/12


Joe Zeglinski
 

Hi Chuck,

If at all possible ... it is best to AVOID using extension bars. I have been advised by an expert, that he keeps his stack of cwts as close to the upper bar as possible, and even retained his old, shorter, AP-1200 cwt bar. He says that with the large mass of cwts down the bar, their "inertia" can affect the "responsiveness", of fine guiding corrections.

Of course, this won't pose a problem for those at low latitudes, but those in higher latitudes may have no choice but to use extensions, since the cwt diameter can clip the mount post-meridian, especially the mount AZ Adjuster knob, which sticks out a bit further, beyond the pier perimeter.

Some things to consider, before going for lighter weights further own the bar, for the same leverage.
Joe Z.

-----Original Message-----
From: divenuts
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 4:46 PM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Larger "diameter" Counterweights for AP-1600 ?

Don't forget you can get an extention cwt bar, which cost much less than the
weights. If the 1600 couldn't use the 1200 weights..that would be a deal
breaker for me.
Chuck/divenuts