New images with the 140EDF refractor


Roland Christen
 

Hi folks,

I have posted some new images I took recently with the first of the 140
refractors on Robert Provin's website, NGC6888 and M17:
http://geogdata.csun.edu/~voltaire/roland/

Be sure to check out the closeups of each image. They are narrow band images
since my observatory has been severely affected by light pollution from
several new giant strip malls just down the road.

Rolando


**************************************
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Roland Christen
 

In a message dated 8/7/2007 8:09:42 PM Central Daylight Time,
rdcrisp@... writes:


so keep them coming, I love seeing you doing narrowband these days!

rdc
Well part of the image quality has to be attributed to the mount, so I would
say images are not off topic. Keep posting yours too - they are unique and
interesting.

Rolando


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Richard Crisp
 

those came out very nice roland

based on postings from others today I suppose consistency would say the image postings are off topic here, but I think that's not a proper interpretation of the spirit of the group.

so keep them coming, I love seeing you doing narrowband these days!

rdc

----- Original Message -----
From: chris1011@...
To: ap-ug@...
Cc: ap-gto@...
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 4:26 PM
Subject: [ap-gto] New images with the 140EDF refractor


Hi folks,

I have posted some new images I took recently with the first of the 140
refractors on Robert Provin's website, NGC6888 and M17:
http://geogdata.csun.edu/~voltaire/roland/

Be sure to check out the closeups of each image. They are narrow band images
since my observatory has been severely affected by light pollution from
several new giant strip malls just down the road.

Rolando

**************************************
Get a sneak peek of the all-new
AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


Richard Crisp
 

Absolutely the mount is the key ingredient for me to be able to image at 5760mm and even at 3366mm

were the filters you used the baader planetarium narrowbands?

i sure like my set, you just can't beat the bang for the buck and I haven't found any compromises in mine that I didn't like.

----- Original Message -----
From: chris1011@...
To: ap-gto@...
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New images with the 140EDF refractor


In a message dated 8/7/2007 8:09:42 PM Central Daylight Time,
rdcrisp@... writes:

> so keep them coming, I love seeing you doing narrowband these days!
>
> rdc

Well part of the image quality has to be attributed to the mount, so I would
say images are not off topic. Keep posting yours too - they are unique and
interesting.

Rolando

**************************************
Get a sneak peek of the all-new
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elraeburn <eraeburn@...>
 

--- In ap-gto@..., chris1011@... wrote:

Well part of the image quality has to be attributed to the mount...
So which mount was it that facilitated your capturing these beautiful
images?

-ER


Roland Christen
 

In a message dated 8/7/2007 8:33:01 PM Central Daylight Time,
rdcrisp@... writes:


were the filters you used the baader planetarium narrowbands?
Yes. Part of this experiment was to see how well they work here under my
conditions of light pollution. The 7nm bandwidth certainly cuts out 99.9% of the
bad light and allows fairly deep reach into the sky.

Rolando


**************************************
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Roland Christen
 

In a message dated 8/8/2007 3:55:45 AM Central Daylight Time,
eraeburn@... writes:


So which mount was it that facilitated your capturing these beautiful
images?

-ER
The 140EDF is mounted on the Mach1 and Eagle pier.

Rolando


**************************************
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Roland Christen
 

Hi Ray,

In the past I have limited myself to taking only RGB images. Now that large
box stores are within shouting distance of our factory and observatory, I can
no longer get anything reasonable with broad band filters (except past midnight
on a Sunday). The only option is narrow band. It seems that consumer's desire
for ever more cheap goods has had the side effect of robbing us of the night
sky. When I first came to this area 30+ years ago, it was dark enough here to
see the Milky Way glittering above. My neighbors and I were out one night to
witness an incredible Perseid meteor shower not too far from here. Today one
would not be able to see this display of natural beauty due to contamination by
very unnatural pollution.

Rolando


In a message dated 8/8/2007 8:38:45 AM Central Daylight Time, rgr@...
writes:

Hi Roland,

I'm not a big fan of False-color (e.g. narrowband) images because almost by
definition no attempt is made to match colors to reality. Sometimes to get
interesting colors the SII and OIII lines need to be exaggerated so that the
HAlpha data does not totally overwhelm them. I find this process somewhat
arbitrary and so I think such images should be marked with a note clearly
indicating that only a tiny fraction of the full visible spectrum was used
to
create the false-color image. No attempt is made to present the object as it
looks in nature and the false colors were chosen arbitrarily for artistic
effect. One could almost as easily take a monochrome image and make an
appealing
false-color mapping (in fact I think I did this one time to make a point!
:-)

One other note about stars in narrowband images in general. It's interesting
that one narrowband proponent made a point here to mention he doesn't cut
and
paste in stars from another image. However, his collection of false color
images
are missing millions of stars that would otherwise be there had his imaging
time
been devoted to broadband filters. <G>

That said, you managed to capture great detail and even managed to keep most
of
the stars from being too funky colored! Focus is very tight on that new
instrument. I'm sure many people struggling to get good focus with larger
scopes
envy those tight stars.

Lastly it's nice to see that once again the STL11000M has proven itself
capable
of taking narrowband images that rival those taken with much larger scopes
and
those cameras with supposedly much higher QE's and deeper wells!

-Ray

**************************************
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL
at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


Roland Christen
 

In a message dated 8/8/2007 11:16:17 AM Central Daylight Time, rgr@...
writes:


I think you should consider a dark-site remote setup some day, if not just
to
see the issues that more and more remote users have to deal with. Hopefully
that
would result in some AP mount improvements for remote imaging setups.
I see your point. I can do remote imaging here also for testing purposes.

Rolando


**************************************
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Ray Gralak <rgr@...>
 

Hi Roland,

I'm not a big fan of False-color (e.g. narrowband) images because almost by
definition no attempt is made to match colors to reality. Sometimes to get
interesting colors the SII and OIII lines need to be exaggerated so that the
HAlpha data does not totally overwhelm them. I find this process somewhat
arbitrary and so I think such images should be marked with a note clearly
indicating that only a tiny fraction of the full visible spectrum was used to
create the false-color image. No attempt is made to present the object as it
looks in nature and the false colors were chosen arbitrarily for artistic
effect. One could almost as easily take a monochrome image and make an appealing
false-color mapping (in fact I think I did this one time to make a point! :-)

One other note about stars in narrowband images in general. It's interesting
that one narrowband proponent made a point here to mention he doesn't cut and
paste in stars from another image. However, his collection of false color images
are missing millions of stars that would otherwise be there had his imaging time
been devoted to broadband filters. <G>

That said, you managed to capture great detail and even managed to keep most of
the stars from being too funky colored! Focus is very tight on that new
instrument. I'm sure many people struggling to get good focus with larger scopes
envy those tight stars.

Lastly it's nice to see that once again the STL11000M has proven itself capable
of taking narrowband images that rival those taken with much larger scopes and
those cameras with supposedly much higher QE's and deeper wells!

-Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
On Behalf Of chris1011@...
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 4:26 PM
To: ap-ug@...
Cc: ap-gto@...
Subject: [ap-gto] New images with the 140EDF refractor

Hi folks,

I have posted some new images I took recently with the first
of the 140
refractors on Robert Provin's website, NGC6888 and M17:
http://geogdata.csun.edu/~voltaire/roland/
<http://geogdata.csun.edu/~voltaire/roland/>

Be sure to check out the closeups of each image. They are
narrow band images
since my observatory has been severely affected by light
pollution from
several new giant strip malls just down the road.

Rolando

**************************************
Get a sneak peek of the all-new
AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
<http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour>







Richard Crisp
 

and that is exactly why I :

1) have actively promoted narrowband since early 2003 as a viable method of imaging nebulae from the 'burbs
2) note that an optimization for the camera is to go with a deep well sensor with high dynamic range: again to image from the bright skies of the 'burbs

while it is true that remote observatories are gaining in popularity with a small group of fellows willing and able to finance such an operation, the mass market remains backyard imaging from their homes and for most they live in or near cities under far less than optimal imaging conditions.

I could pack it up and head out for a week at a time two or three times a year to a dark sky site, but I can image any clear night from my backyard irrespective of moon phase using narrowband and the equipment optimizations I am suggesting. Based on what I have seen approximately 95% or more imagers are not using remote dark sky sites for their imaging.

----- Original Message -----
From: chris1011@...
To: ap-gto@...
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 7:26 AM
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New images with the 140EDF refractor


Hi Ray,

In the past I have limited myself to taking only RGB images. Now that large
box stores are within shouting distance of our factory and observatory, I can
no longer get anything reasonable with broad band filters (except past midnight
on a Sunday). The only option is narrow band. It seems that consumer's desire
for ever more cheap goods has had the side effect of robbing us of the night
sky. When I first came to this area 30+ years ago, it was dark enough here to
see the Milky Way glittering above. My neighbors and I were out one night to
witness an incredible Perseid meteor shower not too far from here. Today one
would not be able to see this display of natural beauty due to contamination by
very unnatural pollution.

Rolando

In a message dated 8/8/2007 8:38:45 AM Central Daylight Time, rgr@...
writes:

> Hi Roland,
>
> I'm not a big fan of False-color (e.g. narrowband) images because almost by
> definition no attempt is made to match colors to reality. Sometimes to get
> interesting colors the SII and OIII lines need to be exaggerated so that the
> HAlpha data does not totally overwhelm them. I find this process somewhat
> arbitrary and so I think such images should be marked with a note clearly
> indicating that only a tiny fraction of the full visible spectrum was used
> to
> create the false-color image. No attempt is made to present the object as it
> looks in nature and the false colors were chosen arbitrarily for artistic
> effect. One could almost as easily take a monochrome image and make an
> appealing
> false-color mapping (in fact I think I did this one time to make a point!
> :-)
>
> One other note about stars in narrowband images in general. It's interesting
> that one narrowband proponent made a point here to mention he doesn't cut
> and
> paste in stars from another image. However, his collection of false color
> images
> are missing millions of stars that would otherwise be there had his imaging
> time
> been devoted to broadband filters. <G>
>
> That said, you managed to capture great detail and even managed to keep most
> of
> the stars from being too funky colored! Focus is very tight on that new
> instrument. I'm sure many people struggling to get good focus with larger
> scopes
> envy those tight stars.
>
> Lastly it's nice to see that once again the STL11000M has proven itself
> capable
> of taking narrowband images that rival those taken with much larger scopes
> and
> those cameras with supposedly much higher QE's and deeper wells!
>
> -Ray
>

**************************************
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL
> at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


ayiomamitis
 

Rolando,

Both are exceptional. I like your M17 and the 80 minutes total
exposure! Awesome.

I also like your idea of mixing the H-a and O-III to derive the green. ;-)

Anthony.

--- In ap-gto@..., chris1011@... wrote:

Hi folks,

I have posted some new images I took recently with the first of the 140
refractors on Robert Provin's website, NGC6888 and M17:
http://geogdata.csun.edu/~voltaire/roland/

Be sure to check out the closeups of each image. They are narrow
band images
since my observatory has been severely affected by light pollution from
several new giant strip malls just down the road.

Rolando


**************************************
Get a sneak peek of the all-new
AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


ayiomamitis
 

--- In ap-gto@..., "Ray Gralak" <rgr@...> wrote:

Hi Roland,

I'm not a big fan of False-color (e.g. narrowband) images because
almost by

<snip>


Lastly it's nice to see that once again the STL11000M has proven
itself capable
of taking narrowband images that rival those taken with much larger
scopes and
those cameras with supposedly much higher QE's and deeper wells!
I like this comment in particular!

I often ask myself how much I am depriving myself with my (older)
ST-2000XM and then I see such work and results using 140mm of aperture
and a camera (STL-11000XM) which has a similar QE to my ST-2000XM. In
fact, the M17 has 80 minutes total time.

Very encouraging results!

Anthony.


-Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
On Behalf Of chris1011@...
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 4:26 PM
To: ap-ug@...
Cc: ap-gto@...
Subject: [ap-gto] New images with the 140EDF refractor

Hi folks,

I have posted some new images I took recently with the first
of the 140
refractors on Robert Provin's website, NGC6888 and M17:
http://geogdata.csun.edu/~voltaire/roland/
<http://geogdata.csun.edu/~voltaire/roland/>

Be sure to check out the closeups of each image. They are
narrow band images
since my observatory has been severely affected by light
pollution from
several new giant strip malls just down the road.

Rolando

**************************************
Get a sneak peek of the all-new
AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
<http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour>







ayiomamitis
 

--- In ap-gto@..., chris1011@... wrote:

In a message dated 8/7/2007 8:33:01 PM Central Daylight Time,
rdcrisp@... writes:


were the filters you used the baader planetarium narrowbands?
Rolando,

Yes. Part of this experiment was to see how well they work here
under my
conditions of light pollution. The 7nm bandwidth certainly cuts out
99.9% of the
bad light and allows fairly deep reach into the sky.
I have a sneaky suspicion that you also have very good seeing. Have
you sat down to estimate some kind of FWHM for your location on a
typical evening?

Anthony.


Rolando


**************************************
Get a sneak peek of the all-new
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ayiomamitis
 

--- In ap-gto@..., chris1011@... wrote:

In a message dated 8/8/2007 3:55:45 AM Central Daylight Time,
eraeburn@... writes:


So which mount was it that facilitated your capturing these beautiful
images?

-ER
The 140EDF is mounted on the Mach1 and Eagle pier.
My Mach1GTO cleared customs and will be in my hands this Friday. Yes!!!!

Anthony.


Rolando


**************************************
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Richard Crisp
 

it isn't that you will not get good results with a shallow well camera with low dynamic range and poor qe, but you will get better results faster with one that doesn't have those disadvantages; especially so if you are in a less than optimal sky.

the thing that originally excited me about tricolor emission line images were the beautiful hubble nebular images. I liked them when I first saw them many years ago and they still provide inspiration for me.

Stars are OK, but that's not what captures my imagination.



ayiomamitis <ayiomami@...> wrote:
--- In ap-gto@..., "Ray Gralak" <rgr@...> wrote:

Hi Roland,

I'm not a big fan of False-color (e.g. narrowband) images because
almost by

<snip>


Lastly it's nice to see that once again the STL11000M has proven
itself capable
of taking narrowband images that rival those taken with much larger
scopes and
those cameras with supposedly much higher QE's and deeper wells!
I like this comment in particular!

I often ask myself how much I am depriving myself with my (older)
ST-2000XM and then I see such work and results using 140mm of aperture
and a camera (STL-11000XM) which has a similar QE to my ST-2000XM. In
fact, the M17 has 80 minutes total time.

Very encouraging results!

Anthony.


-Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
On Behalf Of chris1011@...
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 4:26 PM
To: ap-ug@...
Cc: ap-gto@...
Subject: [ap-gto] New images with the 140EDF refractor

Hi folks,

I have posted some new images I took recently with the first
of the 140
refractors on Robert Provin's website, NGC6888 and M17:
http://geogdata.csun.edu/~voltaire/roland/
<http://geogdata.csun.edu/~voltaire/roland/>

Be sure to check out the closeups of each image. They are
narrow band images
since my observatory has been severely affected by light
pollution from
several new giant strip malls just down the road.

Rolando

**************************************
Get a sneak peek of the all-new
AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
<http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour>







Ray Gralak <rgr@...>
 

Hi Roland,

I absolutely understand why someone would want to (or have to) do this type of
imaging but I still prefer "true" (err... closer to true? :-) color images.
Images produced by this emission line color mapping technique do not in any way
reflect true color or even present the object's true star field. But artistic
license has a long arm so I think it is ok provided the artist clearly states
that the image is false color. This will at least prevent some viewers from
thinking this object actually exists as presented.

However, bringing this back to APGTO mounts let me say that my interest is
mostly in remote imaging. Having had a telescope stationed at New Mexico Skies
for almost a year now I think I understand a lot of issues with remote imaging.
I think you should consider a dark-site remote setup some day, if not just to
see the issues that more and more remote users have to deal with. Hopefully that
would result in some AP mount improvements for remote imaging setups.

-Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
On Behalf Of chris1011@...
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 7:27 AM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New images with the 140EDF refractor

Hi Ray,

In the past I have limited myself to taking only RGB images.
Now that large
box stores are within shouting distance of our factory and
observatory, I can
no longer get anything reasonable with broad band filters
(except past midnight
on a Sunday). The only option is narrow band. It seems that
consumer's desire
for ever more cheap goods has had the side effect of robbing
us of the night
sky. When I first came to this area 30+ years ago, it was
dark enough here to
see the Milky Way glittering above. My neighbors and I were
out one night to
witness an incredible Perseid meteor shower not too far from
here. Today one
would not be able to see this display of natural beauty due
to contamination by
very unnatural pollution.

Rolando

In a message dated 8/8/2007 8:38:45 AM Central Daylight Time,
rgr@... <mailto:rgr%40gralak.com>
writes:

Hi Roland,

I'm not a big fan of False-color (e.g. narrowband) images
because almost by
definition no attempt is made to match colors to reality.
Sometimes to get
interesting colors the SII and OIII lines need to be
exaggerated so that the
HAlpha data does not totally overwhelm them. I find this
process somewhat
arbitrary and so I think such images should be marked with
a note clearly
indicating that only a tiny fraction of the full visible
spectrum was used
to
create the false-color image. No attempt is made to present
the object as it
looks in nature and the false colors were chosen
arbitrarily for artistic
effect. One could almost as easily take a monochrome image
and make an
appealing
false-color mapping (in fact I think I did this one time to
make a point!
:-)

One other note about stars in narrowband images in general.
It's interesting
that one narrowband proponent made a point here to mention
he doesn't cut
and
paste in stars from another image. However, his collection
of false color
images
are missing millions of stars that would otherwise be there
had his imaging
time
been devoted to broadband filters. <G>

That said, you managed to capture great detail and even
managed to keep most
of
the stars from being too funky colored! Focus is very tight
on that new
instrument. I'm sure many people struggling to get good
focus with larger
scopes
envy those tight stars.

Lastly it's nice to see that once again the STL11000M has
proven itself
capable
of taking narrowband images that rival those taken with
much larger scopes
and
those cameras with supposedly much higher QE's and deeper wells!

-Ray
**************************************
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL
at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
<http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour>







Auchter Tom-W11806
 

The seeing in the Illinois area is not great due to the jet stream
typically being overhead :-( Typical FWHM would range from 3.0" to
3.5". A good night would be 2.5".

Tom


I have a sneaky suspicion that you also have very good seeing. Have
you sat down to estimate some kind of FWHM for your location on a
typical evening?

Anthony.


Ray Gralak <rgr@...>
 

I see your point. I can do remote imaging here also for
testing purposes.
Yes you can do that but it's a different ball of wax when the setup is truly
remote.

-Ray


Richard Crisp
 

particularly when you send a command and nothing happens because all your gear was sold the day before at a flea market just outside of Las Cruces for $200 and a case of beer.





Ray Gralak <rgr@...> wrote:
> I see your point. I can do remote imaging here also for
testing purposes.
Yes you can do that but it's a different ball of wax when the setup is truly
remote.

-Ray