In a message dated 6/18/2007 5:25:02 PM Central Daylight Time,
rickwiggins@... writes:

B) Bluetooth >> maybe $25 to eliminate the serial cable and $75 to
eliminate the handcontroller cable.

The problem again with the keypad (hand controller) is that we chose to use a
type of display that works down to -40F. This display uses a lot of power.
Batteries to power the keypad would not work very long. The keypad must get 12
volt power from somewhere, thus the cord. The alternative is to use an LCD
display which uses almost no power, but which freezes up in the cold, or becomes
slow and unreadable.

Rolando


**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.

Hi,
I had to chime in on the continuing "GPS etc." discussion. I have 5
AP mounts, one Paramount, and I used to have a Celestron CGE. Here
are several points as I see them form personal use:
1. Having Bluetooth or some wireless connection would be useful
especially for portable. The caveat here is that it is super robust
and doesn't interfere with other communications devices. I usually
tend towards wired connections for everything to avoid radio signal
issues. The wires going to the mount are not really a problem as
these do not hang off the scope and move around like the cameras
wires.
2. Having GPS would be some value in instances where one is
traveling and wants to look up their positional coordinates (not
really needed for mount). In addition, one could have the mount
powered up in the back of his truck and use it for a navigational
sytem while driving! (just seeing who is awake here).
3. Serial & USB ports. I find serial ports to be very reliable and
USB ports and devices to be flaky at times. I find many of the
converter products to be flaky also. I have found that the Edgeport
4:1 (USB to serial) converters and Quatech products to work well,
but I don't trust the cheap converters. I like the serial ports and
operate them via the Edgeport 4:1.

So...how much would I pay for these features...
A) GPS >> less than $50 becasue I could tape a commerial unit on for
$50, and it really has no use for the mount.
B) Bluetooth >> maybe $25 to eliminate the serial cable and $75 to
eliminate the handcontroller cable.
C) USB >> probably nothing, as there is no bandwidth issue and
serial seems more reliable to me.

...Moving my name up on the waiting list...Priceless!!!

My 2 cents!
Rick

Roland,

Obviously, LCD's can be heated. There are even ruggedized laptops with
heated LCD displays. For the size of the pad LCD display, power would not
be an issue. Besides, the new rubber mitt would help redirect the
electronics heat toward an LCD display, to help. Are all the other cheap,
made in China, competitive hand pads having LCD problems with cold? I don't
think so.

There must be other issues. In any case, I don't mind the cord, since the
AP pad display is so clear to read with tired eyes at night - I hate squinting
on those LCD's - and given a choice, I would keep the AP pad just the way it
is ... well, maybe thinner, than such a brick, if possible.

Joe

At 06:42 PM 6/18/2007, chris1011@... wrote:

In a message dated 6/18/2007 5:25:02 PM Central Daylight Time,
rickwiggins@... writes:

B) Bluetooth >> maybe $25 to eliminate the serial cable and $75 to
eliminate the handcontroller cable.

The problem again with the keypad (hand controller) is that we chose to use a
type of display that works down to -40F. This display uses a lot of power.
Batteries to power the keypad would not work very long. The keypad must get 12
volt power from somewhere, thus the cord. The alternative is to use an LCD
display which uses almost no power, but which freezes up in the cold, or becomes
slow and unreadable.

Roland: users CAN use Bluetooth between their computer and the mount by adding a Bluetooth-Serial adaptor without YOU having to do anything ...
And that would be a cheaper solution too ... easier than YOU adding it to the mount.

Dave

Here's a fast two links...





http://www.blackbox.com/Catalog/Detail.aspx?cid=45,659,875
<http://www.blackbox.com/Catalog/Detail.aspx?cid=45,659,875&mid=4304>
&mid=4304



http://www.l-com.com/item.aspx?id=8656



Steve





From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...] On Behalf Of
Rick K
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 2:02 AM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: New features



--- In ap-gto@... <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> , "David B.
Toth" <ve3gyq@...> wrote:

At 09:36 AM 6/19/2007, Rick K wrote:

And which batteryless Bluetooth adapter will do this job? AFAIK the
serial port on the AP mounts have NO provision for supplying power to
attached serial devices. As well any of those serial devices are about
2 inches long and would stick up waiting to get ripped off the
controller as the scope or camera passed by. No thanks. Integrated is
by far the best solution.

The Socket CSA is 2" or less in size, and can get its power from Pin
9 ... you can wire pin 9 on your mount with 5 volts.
The adaptor doesn't seem to stick out any further than a DB9 would
.... I don't think it would be too vulnerable to "attack" if I recall
where the connector is.

BTW, I think reworking the mount's electronics to add Bluetooth would
very well require RECERTIFICATION by the FCC ...
If I recall correctly, that can cost upwards of $20k - Roland could
comment as I am sure he knows the cost.

(The electronics have to be evaluated for the FCC to prove that they
do not have significant RF radiation - I'm not sure if a simple rework
would require this, but it would not surprise me)

Your mileage may vary.

Dave

Sorry, but I have looked into this and 2 inches is over a half inch
too high. The clearance on the mount from both the big 900 and 1200
plates is inadequate to allow a 2" projection. It barely clears a
1.25" projection. I actually tie the serial cables down out of the way
specifically so that they stay out of the way. I have been on the
lookout for right angle DB9 connectors but since RS232 is essentially
obsolete, such items are virtually impossible to find. As it stands,
for Bluetooth, I could wire up a short 'serial' extender cable and
modify the port to supply power but this is just a kludge. A proper
built-in Bluetooth implementation would be better. Of course, all this
pales when compared to adding USB connectivity. THAT is way more
important. Shelve Bluetooth entirely if it is going to be a choice
between that and USB.

Although I would be completely at ease modifying the controller to
supply power to the Bluetooth adapter, I am wondering what Roland
would think about this. I expect that he might not be amused and that
it would void the warranty.

In a message dated 6/18/2007 9:19:39 PM Central Daylight Time,
J.Zeglinski@... writes:

Are all the other cheap,
made in China, competitive hand pads having LCD problems with cold?

Yes. None of the ones we tested worked well in freezing temps.

Rolando


**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.

In a message dated 6/18/2007 11:38:22 PM Central Daylight Time,
ve3gyq@... writes:

Roland: users CAN use Bluetooth between their computer and the mount
by adding a Bluetooth-Serial adaptor without YOU having to do anything ...
And that would be a cheaper solution too ... easier than YOU adding
it to the mount.

Thanks, but the issue is the keypad. This item, like a laptop computer,
requires a certain amount of power for the electronics and display. Thus the need
for the cord.

Rolando


**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.

And which batteryless Bluetooth adapter will do this job? AFAIK the
serial port on the AP mounts have NO provision for supplying power to
attached serial devices. As well any of those serial devices are about
2 inches long and would stick up waiting to get ripped off the
controller as the scope or camera passed by. No thanks. Integrated is
by far the best solution.

The top serial port could be retained for legacy. The bottom serial
port should be changed to a USB 2.0 port and provide a hub with a
couple or three or four additional connections.

As far as the wired hand controller goes, keep it that way. I like the
reliability and ruggedness. It is simple to use and works well for
those evenings that I jsut want to use teh scope and mount quickly
without setting up all the imaging frills.

For imaging purposes, I use an edgeport USB to 4 port serial box so
that I can control the mount, two focusers and a Pyxis rotator. In
front of that I have a powered USB 2.0 hub which connects to the
Edgeport, CCD and guider camera. Each device requires power as well.
There are wires everywhere. I think it is Joe, who has a box he made
which contains all the various cables, power adapters, etc ready for
use. Unfortunately I have yet to get around to doing this. It would be
so nice to move completely to USB with three cables to the mount, one
supplying power to the mount, one supplying power to the camera and
one USB to run everything.

Bluetooth doesn't have the capacity to replace the USB connection for
use with large arrays and high speeds. It might have in a generation
or two. I might agree that it looks like it would be best left out for
the time being, but since the mount CAN be run without using the hand
controller, say from a PDA or whatever, it is time to think about how
to implement such communications. A single chip or modular approach
which can be easily user upgraded might be worth a look.

Rick.


--- In ap-gto@..., "David B. Toth" <ve3gyq@...> wrote:

At 06:42 PM 6/18/2007, chris1011@... wrote:

In a message dated 6/18/2007 5:25:02 PM Central Daylight Time,
rickwiggins@... writes:

B) Bluetooth >> maybe $25 to eliminate the serial cable and $75 to
eliminate the handcontroller cable.

The problem again with the keypad (hand controller) is that we

chose to use a

type of display that works down to -40F. This display uses a lot of

power.

Batteries to power the keypad would not work very long. The keypad
must get 12
volt power from somewhere, thus the cord. The alternative is to use

an LCD

display which uses almost no power, but which freezes up in the
cold, or becomes
slow and unreadable.

Roland: users CAN use Bluetooth between their computer and the mount
by adding a Bluetooth-Serial adaptor without YOU having to do

anything ...

And that would be a cheaper solution too ... easier than YOU adding
it to the mount.

Dave

At 09:36 AM 6/19/2007, Rick K wrote:

And which batteryless Bluetooth adapter will do this job? AFAIK the
serial port on the AP mounts have NO provision for supplying power to
attached serial devices. As well any of those serial devices are about
2 inches long and would stick up waiting to get ripped off the
controller as the scope or camera passed by. No thanks. Integrated is
by far the best solution.

The Socket CSA is 2" or less in size, and can get its power from Pin 9 ... you can wire pin 9 on your mount with 5 volts.
The adaptor doesn't seem to stick out any further than a DB9 would .... I don't think it would be too vulnerable to "attack" if I recall where the connector is.

BTW, I think reworking the mount's electronics to add Bluetooth would very well require RECERTIFICATION by the FCC ...
If I recall correctly, that can cost upwards of $20k - Roland could comment as I am sure he knows the cost.

(The electronics have to be evaluated for the FCC to prove that they do not have significant RF radiation - I'm not sure if a simple rework
would require this, but it would not surprise me)

Your mileage may vary.

Dave

Indeed, my LX200GPS handbox's LCD starts to fail at about 35°F. Worse yet, the handbox circuitry itself goes at about 28°F.

-- Jeff.



________________________________

From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...] On Behalf Of chris1011@...
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 3:14 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New features



In a message dated 6/18/2007 9:19:39 PM Central Daylight Time,
J.Zeglinski@... <mailto:J.Zeglinski%40rogers.com> writes:

> Are all the other cheap,
> made in China, competitive hand pads having LCD problems with cold?

Yes. None of the ones we tested worked well in freezing temps.

Rolando

**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com. <http://www.aol.com.>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 10:16 AM 6/19/2007, chris1011@... wrote:

In a message dated 6/18/2007 11:38:22 PM Central Daylight Time,
ve3gyq@... writes:

Roland: users CAN use Bluetooth between their computer and the mount
by adding a Bluetooth-Serial adaptor without YOU having to do anything ...
And that would be a cheaper solution too ... easier than YOU adding
it to the mount.

Thanks, but the issue is the keypad. This item, like a laptop computer,
requires a certain amount of power for the electronics and display. Thus the need
for the cord.

Rolando

Yes, I saw that part of the discussion ... if it HAS to be plugged in for power, it might just as well be plugged into the mount. I wouldn't want to see that nice display go away just to do away with the cable. If folks don't mind (temporarily) giving up the hand-controller, they could make a bluetooth connection from a Pocket PC running TheSky Pocket Edition.

Dave

Hi Roland,
Good point. I forgot about the power for the display. Leave it the
way it is. I love it, and have been able to do everything I need "As
Is".
Thanks, Rick

--- In ap-gto@..., chris1011@... wrote:

In a message dated 6/18/2007 5:25:02 PM Central Daylight Time,
rickwiggins@... writes:

B) Bluetooth >> maybe $25 to eliminate the serial cable and $75

to

eliminate the handcontroller cable.

The problem again with the keypad (hand controller) is that we

chose to use a

type of display that works down to -40F. This display uses a lot

of power.

Batteries to power the keypad would not work very long. The keypad

must get 12

volt power from somewhere, thus the cord. The alternative is to

use an LCD

display which uses almost no power, but which freezes up in the

cold, or becomes

slow and unreadable.

Rolando


**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.

--- In ap-gto@..., "David B. Toth" <ve3gyq@...> wrote:

At 09:36 AM 6/19/2007, Rick K wrote:

And which batteryless Bluetooth adapter will do this job? AFAIK the
serial port on the AP mounts have NO provision for supplying power to
attached serial devices. As well any of those serial devices are about
2 inches long and would stick up waiting to get ripped off the
controller as the scope or camera passed by. No thanks. Integrated is
by far the best solution.

The Socket CSA is 2" or less in size, and can get its power from Pin
9 ... you can wire pin 9 on your mount with 5 volts.
The adaptor doesn't seem to stick out any further than a DB9 would
.... I don't think it would be too vulnerable to "attack" if I recall
where the connector is.

BTW, I think reworking the mount's electronics to add Bluetooth would
very well require RECERTIFICATION by the FCC ...
If I recall correctly, that can cost upwards of $20k - Roland could
comment as I am sure he knows the cost.

(The electronics have to be evaluated for the FCC to prove that they
do not have significant RF radiation - I'm not sure if a simple rework
would require this, but it would not surprise me)

Your mileage may vary.

Dave

Sorry, but I have looked into this and 2 inches is over a half inch
too high. The clearance on the mount from both the big 900 and 1200
plates is inadequate to allow a 2" projection. It barely clears a
1.25" projection. I actually tie the serial cables down out of the way
specifically so that they stay out of the way. I have been on the
lookout for right angle DB9 connectors but since RS232 is essentially
obsolete, such items are virtually impossible to find. As it stands,
for Bluetooth, I could wire up a short 'serial' extender cable and
modify the port to supply power but this is just a kludge. A proper
built-in Bluetooth implementation would be better. Of course, all this
pales when compared to adding USB connectivity. THAT is way more
important. Shelve Bluetooth entirely if it is going to be a choice
between that and USB.

Although I would be completely at ease modifying the controller to
supply power to the Bluetooth adapter, I am wondering what Roland
would think about this. I expect that he might not be amused and that
it would void the warranty.

Hi Steve,

Just got off the phone with L-com. I was hoping for solderable
connectors so that I could modify my cables but these should work out ok.

Rick.


--- In ap-gto@..., "Steve Reilly" <sreilly@...> wrote:

Here's a fast two links...





http://www.blackbox.com/Catalog/Detail.aspx?cid=45,659,875
<http://www.blackbox.com/Catalog/Detail.aspx?cid=45,659,875&mid=4304>
&mid=4304



http://www.l-com.com/item.aspx?id=8656



Steve





From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...] On

Behalf Of

Rick K
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 2:02 AM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: New features



--- In ap-gto@... <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> ,

"David B.

Toth" <ve3gyq@> wrote:

At 09:36 AM 6/19/2007, Rick K wrote:

And which batteryless Bluetooth adapter will do this job? AFAIK the
serial port on the AP mounts have NO provision for supplying power to
attached serial devices. As well any of those serial devices are

about

2 inches long and would stick up waiting to get ripped off the
controller as the scope or camera passed by. No thanks. Integrated is
by far the best solution.

The Socket CSA is 2" or less in size, and can get its power from Pin
9 ... you can wire pin 9 on your mount with 5 volts.
The adaptor doesn't seem to stick out any further than a DB9 would
.... I don't think it would be too vulnerable to "attack" if I recall
where the connector is.

BTW, I think reworking the mount's electronics to add Bluetooth would
very well require RECERTIFICATION by the FCC ...
If I recall correctly, that can cost upwards of $20k - Roland could
comment as I am sure he knows the cost.

(The electronics have to be evaluated for the FCC to prove that they
do not have significant RF radiation - I'm not sure if a simple rework
would require this, but it would not surprise me)

Your mileage may vary.

Dave

Sorry, but I have looked into this and 2 inches is over a half inch
too high. The clearance on the mount from both the big 900 and 1200
plates is inadequate to allow a 2" projection. It barely clears a
1.25" projection. I actually tie the serial cables down out of the way
specifically so that they stay out of the way. I have been on the
lookout for right angle DB9 connectors but since RS232 is essentially
obsolete, such items are virtually impossible to find. As it stands,
for Bluetooth, I could wire up a short 'serial' extender cable and
modify the port to supply power but this is just a kludge. A proper
built-in Bluetooth implementation would be better. Of course, all this
pales when compared to adding USB connectivity. THAT is way more
important. Shelve Bluetooth entirely if it is going to be a choice
between that and USB.

Although I would be completely at ease modifying the controller to
supply power to the Bluetooth adapter, I am wondering what Roland
would think about this. I expect that he might not be amused and that
it would void the warranty.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rick,

If you want a right-angle adapter try L-com #DG090MF1 or #DG090MF2.
See them at www.L-com.com.

Norm

--- In ap-gto@..., "Rick K" <JunkMailGoesHere@...> wrote:

--- In ap-gto@..., "David B. Toth" <ve3gyq@> wrote:

At 09:36 AM 6/19/2007, Rick K wrote:

And which batteryless Bluetooth adapter will do this job? AFAIK

the

serial port on the AP mounts have NO provision for supplying

power to

attached serial devices. As well any of those serial devices

are about

2 inches long and would stick up waiting to get ripped off the
controller as the scope or camera passed by. No thanks.

Integrated is

by far the best solution.

The Socket CSA is 2" or less in size, and can get its power from

Pin

9 ... you can wire pin 9 on your mount with 5 volts.
The adaptor doesn't seem to stick out any further than a DB9

would

.... I don't think it would be too vulnerable to "attack" if I

recall

where the connector is.

BTW, I think reworking the mount's electronics to add Bluetooth

would

very well require RECERTIFICATION by the FCC ...
If I recall correctly, that can cost upwards of $20k - Roland

could

comment as I am sure he knows the cost.

(The electronics have to be evaluated for the FCC to prove that

they

do not have significant RF radiation - I'm not sure if a simple

rework

would require this, but it would not surprise me)

Your mileage may vary.

Dave

Sorry, but I have looked into this and 2 inches is over a half

inch

too high. The clearance on the mount from both the big 900 and 1200
plates is inadequate to allow a 2" projection. It barely clears a
1.25" projection. I actually tie the serial cables down out of the

way

specifically so that they stay out of the way. I have been on the
lookout for right angle DB9 connectors but since RS232 is

essentially

obsolete, such items are virtually impossible to find. As it

stands,

for Bluetooth, I could wire up a short 'serial' extender cable and
modify the port to supply power but this is just a kludge. A proper
built-in Bluetooth implementation would be better. Of course, all

this

pales when compared to adding USB connectivity. THAT is way more
important. Shelve Bluetooth entirely if it is going to be a choice
between that and USB.

Although I would be completely at ease modifying the controller to
supply power to the Bluetooth adapter, I am wondering what Roland
would think about this. I expect that he might not be amused and

that

it would void the warranty.

In a message dated 6/28/2007 3:49:53 PM Central Daylight Time,
J.Zeglinski@... writes:

Still going through the details in the manual on my new AP900, but I was
wondering:
Is there a "power saving function" on the display?

We don't make the keypad. It is an industrial product, and we have to use
what is available to us. There are a number of things I would like to see, but it
is not possible to change what is.

Rolando


**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.

In a message dated 6/28/2007 4:57:13 PM Central Daylight Time,
J.Zeglinski@... writes:

But don't you customize the keypad firmware for AP?
Even though the keypad unit is made elsewhere, I thought your programming

There are some things that we can control with software, while other things
are semi-controllable, and other things are fixed - hard wired in.

Rolando


**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.

In a message dated 6/28/2007 6:09:45 PM Central Daylight Time,
mal@... writes:

I would like to see a hand controller with the power of an Argo
Nevis, or the possibility of hooking an Argo directly to the mount.
Mal

The mount servo will accept any outside device, be it an Argo or the queen of
Sheba. As long as the outside 3rd party device can send RA/Dec co-ordinates
per the AP protocol down the RS232 connection, then the mount will accept the
instructions and turn them into rotation of the two gear sets. The mount is
fully modular! That means each and every component stands alone and does its job
pretty much independently. Hook it together, and it becomes a GEM. Tell it to
cook your burger, and it will just shrug and continue tracking in the place
where it was before.

Rolando


**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.

Hi Roland,

Still going through the details in the manual on my new AP900, but I was
wondering:
Is there a "power saving function" on the display?

Unless I need RA/DEC, or LST, displayed all the time (for timing
observation events), the fluorescent display tube could be turned off. It
should then be reactivated when any button is pushed.

It might not save a lot of power, but every bit helps when running
everything off a battery.
Perhaps this, along with a "user selectable blink rate" for the guiding
eyepiece power port, could be simple features added to the next keypad
firmware update.

Joe

Joe,

If you press on the left arrow ("<"), it will dim the display.

Anthony.

--- In ap-gto@..., "Joseph Zeglinski" <J.Zeglinski@...> wrote:

Hi Roland,

Still going through the details in the manual on my new AP900,

but I was

wondering:
Is there a "power saving function" on the display?

Unless I need RA/DEC, or LST, displayed all the time (for timing
observation events), the fluorescent display tube could be turned

off. It

should then be reactivated when any button is pushed.

It might not save a lot of power, but every bit helps when running
everything off a battery.
Perhaps this, along with a "user selectable blink rate" for the guiding
eyepiece power port, could be simple features added to the next keypad
firmware update.

Joe

----- Original Message -----
From: <chris1011@...>
To: <ap-gto@...>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New features

In a message dated 6/18/2007 11:38:22 PM Central Daylight Time,
ve3gyq@... writes:

Roland: users CAN use Bluetooth between their computer and the mount
by adding a Bluetooth-Serial adaptor without YOU having to do

anything ...

And that would be a cheaper solution too ... easier than YOU adding
it to the mount.

Thanks, but the issue is the keypad. This item, like a laptop

computer,

requires a certain amount of power for the electronics and

display. Thus the

need
for the cord.

Rolando


**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.






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