Keypad problem ?


Dominik Wos <dominik@...>
 

Hi to the Group !

I have a problem with my 1200GTO keypad. After unusing the mount for
one week I switched it on and from this time the three left keys do not
work (1, 6 and Goto). All other keys are ok and the mount is fully
operational with using RS232 conection but without having access to "1"
key I can not use goto without my laptop. Strange ? Has anyone had the
same problem ?

Best regards,
Dominik


Roland Christen
 

In a message dated 3/29/2007 9:44:42 AM Central Daylight Time,
dominik@derpal.com.pl writes:


I have a problem with my 1200GTO keypad. After unusing the mount for
one week I switched it on and from this time the three left keys do not
work (1, 6 and Goto). All other keys are ok and the mount is fully
operational with using RS232 conection but without having access to "1"
key I can not use goto without my laptop. Strange ? Has anyone had the
same problem ?

Best regards,
Dominik
I don't think anyone has ever had this problem. However, if they did, they
would have to send the keypad to Astro-Physics to get it fixed, which is what i
would recomend for you. It would not be possible to fix this any other way.

Rolando


**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.


 

Dear Dominick,

I have never heard of this problem before. Please try it again and if the situation remains, give us a call to obtain a return authorization #.


Marj Christen
Astro-Physics, Inc
11250 Forest Hills Road
Machesney Park, IL 61115
Phone: 815-282-1513
Fax: 815-282-9847
www.astro-physics.com
Please include this e-mail with your response.

-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ap-gto@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Dominik Wos
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 4:54 AM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ap-gto] Keypad problem ?



Hi to the Group !

I have a problem with my 1200GTO keypad. After unusing the mount for
one week I switched it on and from this time the three left keys do not
work (1, 6 and Goto). All other keys are ok and the mount is fully
operational with using RS232 conection but without having access to "1"
key I can not use goto without my laptop. Strange ? Has anyone had the
same problem ?

Best regards,
Dominik


Dominik Wos <dominik@...>
 

Thanks for your response. The only problem is my location - Poland,
Europe so it is not so easy for me to send the keypad to the US. It
works and only the first row of left side keys do not work (I press
it but there is no reaction) and as I use the mount in my observatory
I can live without this first row. I have looked into the keypad to
see how it works and it is rather simply built but I have no idea
what inside the keypad is not working properly.

Anyway thanks for your advice,
Dominik


--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Marj" <marj@...> wrote:

Dear Dominick,

I have never heard of this problem before. Please try it again and
if the situation remains, give us a call to obtain a return
authorization #.


Marj Christen
Astro-Physics, Inc
11250 Forest Hills Road
Machesney Park, IL 61115
Phone: 815-282-1513
Fax: 815-282-9847
www.astro-physics.com
Please include this e-mail with your response.

-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ap-gto@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Dominik Wos
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 4:54 AM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ap-gto] Keypad problem ?



Hi to the Group !

I have a problem with my 1200GTO keypad. After unusing the mount
for
one week I switched it on and from this time the three left keys do
not
work (1, 6 and Goto). All other keys are ok and the mount is fully
operational with using RS232 conection but without having access
to "1"
key I can not use goto without my laptop. Strange ? Has anyone had
the
same problem ?

Best regards,
Dominik









 

Dear Dominik,

I have e-mailed you privately re: your keypad problem, but I have not heard from you yet. Please check your e-mail. Thank you.


Marj Christen
Astro-Physics, Inc
11250 Forest Hills Road
Machesney Park, IL 61115
Phone: 815-282-1513
Fax: 815-282-9847
www.astro-physics.com
Please include this e-mail with your response.

-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ap-gto@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Dominik Wos
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 12:20 PM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ?



Thanks for your response. The only problem is my location - Poland,
Europe so it is not so easy for me to send the keypad to the US. It
works and only the first row of left side keys do not work (I press
it but there is no reaction) and as I use the mount in my observatory
I can live without this first row. I have looked into the keypad to
see how it works and it is rather simply built but I have no idea
what inside the keypad is not working properly.

Anyway thanks for your advice,
Dominik

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups. <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> com, "Marj" <marj@...> wrote:

Dear Dominick,

I have never heard of this problem before. Please try it again and
if the situation remains, give us a call to obtain a return
authorization #.


Marj Christen
Astro-Physics, Inc
11250 Forest Hills Road
Machesney Park, IL 61115
Phone: 815-282-1513
Fax: 815-282-9847
www.astro-physics.com
Please include this e-mail with your response.

-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@yahoogroups. <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> com [mailto: ap-gto@yahoogroups. <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> com]On
Behalf Of Dominik Wos
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 4:54 AM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups. <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> com
Subject: [ap-gto] Keypad problem ?



Hi to the Group !

I have a problem with my 1200GTO keypad. After unusing the mount
for
one week I switched it on and from this time the three left keys do
not
work (1, 6 and Goto). All other keys are ok and the mount is fully
operational with using RS232 conection but without having access
to "1"
key I can not use goto without my laptop. Strange ? Has anyone had
the
same problem ?

Best regards,
Dominik









Dominik Wos <dominik@...>
 

Hi,

Just to let you know my problem has been resolved with some help of
my neighbour who deals with electronics.

The problem was the plastic dial keypad which is inside AP keypad.
After reparing one of its paths now the whole keypad work just fine
(at least it should for some time).

All the best from Poland,
Dominik
--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Marj" <marj@...> wrote:

Dear Dominik,

I have e-mailed you privately re: your keypad problem, but I have
not heard from you yet. Please check your e-mail. Thank you.


Marj Christen
Astro-Physics, Inc
11250 Forest Hills Road
Machesney Park, IL 61115
Phone: 815-282-1513
Fax: 815-282-9847
www.astro-physics.com
Please include this e-mail with your response.

-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ap-gto@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Dominik Wos
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 12:20 PM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ?



Thanks for your response. The only problem is my location - Poland,
Europe so it is not so easy for me to send the keypad to the US. It
works and only the first row of left side keys do not work (I press
it but there is no reaction) and as I use the mount in my
observatory
I can live without this first row. I have looked into the keypad to
see how it works and it is rather simply built but I have no idea
what inside the keypad is not working properly.

Anyway thanks for your advice,
Dominik

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups. <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com>
com, "Marj" <marj@> wrote:

Dear Dominick,

I have never heard of this problem before. Please try it again
and
if the situation remains, give us a call to obtain a return
authorization #.


Marj Christen
Astro-Physics, Inc
11250 Forest Hills Road
Machesney Park, IL 61115
Phone: 815-282-1513
Fax: 815-282-9847
www.astro-physics.com
Please include this e-mail with your response.

-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@yahoogroups. <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> com
[mailto: ap-gto@yahoogroups. <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> com]On
Behalf Of Dominik Wos
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 4:54 AM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups. <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> com
Subject: [ap-gto] Keypad problem ?



Hi to the Group !

I have a problem with my 1200GTO keypad. After unusing the mount
for
one week I switched it on and from this time the three left keys
do
not
work (1, 6 and Goto). All other keys are ok and the mount is
fully
operational with using RS232 conection but without having access
to "1"
key I can not use goto without my laptop. Strange ? Has anyone
had
the
same problem ?

Best regards,
Dominik







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Joe Zeglinski
 

Czesc Dominik,
Jak sie masz?

Just as a side note on most "elastomer keypads" (like those on your TV
remote) in general.
I don't know if this is the same type as inside the AP keypad, though.

I have found that the rubber membrane on a "typical electronics product
keypad" leaches out some kind of oil as the years go by, probably more if the
push buttons are used very often, like "TV channel surfing". I suspect this is
the embedded "rubber mould, release agent", that remains behind in the rubber
during manufacture, and slowly comes to the surface. Surprisingly, the oil
film on the PCB, seemed about 1/16 inch thick! Quite a puddle, not just a
film. There is no way that the carbon bump under the rubber button could make
electrical contact with the etched copper pattern under it, through that much
oil. I have now repaired my old Jerrold TV remote keypad about 3 times, and a
few others for relatives, simply by taking the case apart, and washing both
the rubber sheet and the matching contacts on the circuit board. I just poured
the Palmolive soap on the PCB, dunked the circuit board in the sink, and
gently scrubbed off the oil in the mild sudsy dish washing soap (NOT dish
washer detergent). On one unit, I tried, (unsuccessfully), just spraying the
PCB with Windex, Isopropyl alcohol, or similar degreaser, but this scum
requires a bit of rubbing with a good soap to make the contacts work longer.
The keypad worked fine for another couple of years, or more, before my
favourite button (channel skip) leaked out more oil, and another washing.

By the way, the oil wasn't from kitchen cooking grease in the air, since
the TV remote pad was always in the living room, and certainly hand oils can't
leak through a full, solid rubber, sheet of buttons - so there seems to be no
external source of this thick oil cover, other than the rubber membrane
material itself.

Mind you, such home remedies may be frowned upon by the manufacturer -
especially dunking the PCB in water - but since I was going to toss it away,
I took a chance and continue using my original controller for many years. The
water didn't affect the electronics after drying (isopropyl spray like
eyeglass cleaner, might be a good final cleanup of any possibly remaining
soap).
Home repair is better than recycling.

By the way - the AP Hand Pad has a 3 year warranty, so don't try the above
home remedy, until it has expired, and you aren't sending it in for
professional repair.

I'm curious, Dominik, when you took the AP keypad apart, how clean was the
PCB surface, and how old is your unit? I can't imagine why there was a "trace"
needing repair, or how it might have been damaged. That is a quality concern.
I wonder if the PCB can't take a lot of push button flexing, in the cold.

Thanks,
Joe

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dominik Wos" <dominik@derpal.com.pl>
To: <ap-gto@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:28 PM
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ?


Hi,

Just to let you know my problem has been resolved with some help of
my neighbour who deals with electronics.

The problem was the plastic dial keypad which is inside AP keypad.
After reparing one of its paths now the whole keypad work just fine
(at least it should for some time).

All the best from Poland,
Dominik
--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Marj" <marj@...> wrote:

Dear Dominik,

I have e-mailed you privately re: your keypad problem, but I have
not heard from you yet. Please check your e-mail. Thank you.


Marj Christen
Astro-Physics, Inc
11250 Forest Hills Road
Machesney Park, IL 61115
Phone: 815-282-1513
Fax: 815-282-9847
www.astro-physics.com
Please include this e-mail with your response.

-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ap-gto@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Dominik Wos
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 12:20 PM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ?



Thanks for your response. The only problem is my location - Poland,
Europe so it is not so easy for me to send the keypad to the US. It
works and only the first row of left side keys do not work (I press
it but there is no reaction) and as I use the mount in my
observatory
I can live without this first row. I have looked into the keypad to
see how it works and it is rather simply built but I have no idea
what inside the keypad is not working properly.

Anyway thanks for your advice,
Dominik

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups. <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com>
com, "Marj" <marj@> wrote:

Dear Dominick,

I have never heard of this problem before. Please try it again
and
if the situation remains, give us a call to obtain a return
authorization #.


Marj Christen
Astro-Physics, Inc
11250 Forest Hills Road
Machesney Park, IL 61115
Phone: 815-282-1513
Fax: 815-282-9847
www.astro-physics.com
Please include this e-mail with your response.

-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@yahoogroups. <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> com
[mailto: ap-gto@yahoogroups. <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> com]On
Behalf Of Dominik Wos
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 4:54 AM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups. <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> com
Subject: [ap-gto] Keypad problem ?



Hi to the Group !

I have a problem with my 1200GTO keypad. After unusing the mount
for
one week I switched it on and from this time the three left keys
do
not
work (1, 6 and Goto). All other keys are ok and the mount is
fully
operational with using RS232 conection but without having access
to "1"
key I can not use goto without my laptop. Strange ? Has anyone
had
the
same problem ?

Best regards,
Dominik


















To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-gto list
see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-gto
Yahoo! Groups Links




Dominik Wos <dominik@...>
 

Czesc Jozefie,

U mnie wszystko OK. Dzieki :-)

So where the problem was ? According to my neighbour the plastic
keypad which is inside is very sensitive to corrosion (he
manyfactures electronics for agiculture machines and uses this kind
of products). The paths are made from silver. Accourding to him it is
a rather common problem esspecialy that I bought my mount second hand
and I belive it is 2002.

It may be the case that after some time you may have the same problem
as mine. My keypad has been successfuly repaired with no cost from my
side. As you said - Home repair is better than recycling. I wanted to
take some pictures of my neighbour work but he said that this was our
know how and we should keep it secret. :-)))

Anyway I remember the case with my FLI filter wheel USB interface.
Unfortunately I used 12V power supply form SBIG STV (different
polarization) and the chip responsible for controlling the stepper
motor exploded - quite a loud noise (one simple diode used in the
design would sort out the issue I think). The response for FLI
customer support was that it could not be repaired and I can get a
new one for US$199. Fortunately thanks to "home repair" (exchange of
a standard chip) it could come back to life and the cost for me was
US$2 (two dollars). :-)))

Trzymaj sie Jozefie.

Best regards,
Dominik



--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Zeglinski" <J.Zeglinski@...>
wrote:

Czesc Dominik,
Jak sie masz?

Just as a side note on most "elastomer keypads" (like those on
your TV
remote) in general.
I don't know if this is the same type as inside the AP keypad,
though.

I have found that the rubber membrane on a "typical electronics
product
keypad" leaches out some kind of oil as the years go by, probably
more if the
push buttons are used very often, like "TV channel surfing". I
suspect this is
the embedded "rubber mould, release agent", that remains behind in
the rubber
during manufacture, and slowly comes to the surface. Surprisingly,
the oil
film on the PCB, seemed about 1/16 inch thick! Quite a puddle, not
just a
film. There is no way that the carbon bump under the rubber button
could make
electrical contact with the etched copper pattern under it, through
that much
oil. I have now repaired my old Jerrold TV remote keypad about 3
times, and a
few others for relatives, simply by taking the case apart, and
washing both
the rubber sheet and the matching contacts on the circuit board. I
just poured
the Palmolive soap on the PCB, dunked the circuit board in the
sink, and
gently scrubbed off the oil in the mild sudsy dish washing soap
(NOT dish
washer detergent). On one unit, I tried, (unsuccessfully), just
spraying the
PCB with Windex, Isopropyl alcohol, or similar degreaser, but this
scum
requires a bit of rubbing with a good soap to make the contacts
work longer.
The keypad worked fine for another couple of years, or more, before
my
favourite button (channel skip) leaked out more oil, and another
washing.

By the way, the oil wasn't from kitchen cooking grease in the
air, since
the TV remote pad was always in the living room, and certainly hand
oils can't
leak through a full, solid rubber, sheet of buttons - so there
seems to be no
external source of this thick oil cover, other than the rubber
membrane
material itself.

Mind you, such home remedies may be frowned upon by the
manufacturer -
especially dunking the PCB in water - but since I was going to
toss it away,
I took a chance and continue using my original controller for many
years. The
water didn't affect the electronics after drying (isopropyl spray
like
eyeglass cleaner, might be a good final cleanup of any possibly
remaining
soap).
Home repair is better than recycling.

By the way - the AP Hand Pad has a 3 year warranty, so don't
try the above
home remedy, until it has expired, and you aren't sending it in for
professional repair.

I'm curious, Dominik, when you took the AP keypad apart, how
clean was the
PCB surface, and how old is your unit? I can't imagine why there
was a "trace"
needing repair, or how it might have been damaged. That is a
quality concern.
I wonder if the PCB can't take a lot of push button flexing, in the
cold.

Thanks,
Joe

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dominik Wos" <dominik@...>
To: <ap-gto@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:28 PM
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ?


Hi,

Just to let you know my problem has been resolved with some help
of
my neighbour who deals with electronics.

The problem was the plastic dial keypad which is inside AP keypad.
After reparing one of its paths now the whole keypad work just
fine
(at least it should for some time).

All the best from Poland,
Dominik
--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Marj" <marj@> wrote:

Dear Dominik,

I have e-mailed you privately re: your keypad problem, but I have
not heard from you yet. Please check your e-mail. Thank you.


Marj Christen
Astro-Physics, Inc
11250 Forest Hills Road
Machesney Park, IL 61115
Phone: 815-282-1513
Fax: 815-282-9847
www.astro-physics.com
Please include this e-mail with your response.

-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ap-gto@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Dominik Wos
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 12:20 PM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ?



Thanks for your response. The only problem is my location -
Poland,
Europe so it is not so easy for me to send the keypad to the US.
It
works and only the first row of left side keys do not work (I
press
it but there is no reaction) and as I use the mount in my
observatory
I can live without this first row. I have looked into the keypad
to
see how it works and it is rather simply built but I have no idea
what inside the keypad is not working properly.

Anyway thanks for your advice,
Dominik

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups. <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com>
com, "Marj" <marj@> wrote:

Dear Dominick,

I have never heard of this problem before. Please try it again
and
if the situation remains, give us a call to obtain a return
authorization #.


Marj Christen
Astro-Physics, Inc
11250 Forest Hills Road
Machesney Park, IL 61115
Phone: 815-282-1513
Fax: 815-282-9847
www.astro-physics.com
Please include this e-mail with your response.

-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@yahoogroups. <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> com
[mailto: ap-gto@yahoogroups. <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com>
com]On
Behalf Of Dominik Wos
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 4:54 AM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups. <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> com
Subject: [ap-gto] Keypad problem ?



Hi to the Group !

I have a problem with my 1200GTO keypad. After unusing the
mount
for
one week I switched it on and from this time the three left
keys
do
not
work (1, 6 and Goto). All other keys are ok and the mount is
fully
operational with using RS232 conection but without having
access
to "1"
key I can not use goto without my laptop. Strange ? Has anyone
had
the
same problem ?

Best regards,
Dominik







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-gto list
see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-gto
Yahoo! Groups Links




Joe Zeglinski
 

Hi Dominik,

Glad to hear that all is well, after the fix.

For the rest of us, perhaps, you could clarify, just in case we run into a
similar problem. In anticipation of other's questions, (Marj was not quite
clear on your post), perhaps we have a very slight misunderstanding in
translation - when you mention "silver" traces.

I have never seen "silver" used in PCB contacts or traces on circuit
boards - they are either gold plated or beryllium plated contacts, and circuit
traces were, until recently perhaps, always lead/tin solder. I wonder where
the "silver" comes in to play. Unless, silver is being used somehow to replace
solder, in order to meet Europe's ROHS pollution standard - an expensive
solution, but this board likely predates that requirement.

Also, circuit traces, even if they are the "old solder standard", are
almost always covered by a green layer of protective "conformal coating", on
good quality circuit board products, which must be standard for Astro Physics
products, surely.

So, I don't quite understand where your friend found anything "silver". Is
it possible that he is using our Polish term "srebny", which describes things
that are "silver coloured", in referring to the "colour" of solder (traces)?
Even so, I am surprised he could get to the solder trace without some effort
to scrape away the green conformal coating, painted over it.

Be that as it may, it would appear that there was a possible bad spot in
the "wave soldering" of the board, leaving a short segment of the original
"copper trace" on the etched PCB exposed, which obviously has corroded over
the last 5 years, or more. This break in the trace caused a loss of some
signal in the Keypad circuit, which your friend expertly cleaned and
resoldered - he has a good eye to have spotted it. Now everything is operating
normally.
If so, I wonder about the quality checks made by the original keypad
manufacturer.

Have I got this right?

Anyway, I probably just made a short story ... long ;-)
Best regards,
Joe (a.k.a. Jozef)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dominik Wos" <dominik@derpal.com.pl>
To: <ap-gto@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 5:27 PM
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ?


Czesc Jozefie,

U mnie wszystko OK. Dzieki :-)

So where the problem was ? According to my neighbour the plastic
keypad which is inside is very sensitive to corrosion (he
manyfactures electronics for agiculture machines and uses this kind
of products). The paths are made from silver. Accourding to him it is
a rather common problem esspecialy that I bought my mount second hand
and I belive it is 2002.


Dominik Wos <dominik@...>
 

Hi Joe,

OK, I will once again dismantle the keypad to take some pictures and
will post them on the Group. You will see the repair and what is
inside the keypad.

All the best,
Dominik

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Zeglinski" <J.Zeglinski@...>
wrote:

Hi Dominik,

Glad to hear that all is well, after the fix.

For the rest of us, perhaps, you could clarify, just in case we
run into a
similar problem. In anticipation of other's questions, (Marj was
not quite
clear on your post), perhaps we have a very slight misunderstanding
in
translation - when you mention "silver" traces.

I have never seen "silver" used in PCB contacts or traces on
circuit
boards - they are either gold plated or beryllium plated contacts,
and circuit
traces were, until recently perhaps, always lead/tin solder. I
wonder where
the "silver" comes in to play. Unless, silver is being used somehow
to replace
solder, in order to meet Europe's ROHS pollution standard - an
expensive
solution, but this board likely predates that requirement.

Also, circuit traces, even if they are the "old solder
standard", are
almost always covered by a green layer of protective "conformal
coating", on
good quality circuit board products, which must be standard for
Astro Physics
products, surely.

So, I don't quite understand where your friend found
anything "silver". Is
it possible that he is using our Polish term "srebny", which
describes things
that are "silver coloured", in referring to the "colour" of solder
(traces)?
Even so, I am surprised he could get to the solder trace without
some effort
to scrape away the green conformal coating, painted over it.

Be that as it may, it would appear that there was a possible
bad spot in
the "wave soldering" of the board, leaving a short segment of the
original
"copper trace" on the etched PCB exposed, which obviously has
corroded over
the last 5 years, or more. This break in the trace caused a loss of
some
signal in the Keypad circuit, which your friend expertly cleaned
and
resoldered - he has a good eye to have spotted it. Now everything
is operating
normally.
If so, I wonder about the quality checks made by the original
keypad
manufacturer.

Have I got this right?

Anyway, I probably just made a short story ... long ;-)
Best regards,
Joe (a.k.a. Jozef)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dominik Wos" <dominik@...>
To: <ap-gto@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 5:27 PM
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ?


Czesc Jozefie,

U mnie wszystko OK. Dzieki :-)

So where the problem was ? According to my neighbour the plastic
keypad which is inside is very sensitive to corrosion (he
manyfactures electronics for agiculture machines and uses this
kind
of products). The paths are made from silver. Accourding to him
it is
a rather common problem esspecialy that I bought my mount second
hand
and I belive it is 2002.


Joe Zeglinski
 

Thanks Dominik,

Are there two PCB's inside - one is the keypad, and the other, the
processor and display? I think Marj may be wondering if you had a problem just
with the keypad PCB ( which is made by another supplier), or the processor
PCB, if there is more than one board inside.

The picture will put everyone's mind at rest - or maybe something to watch out
for, in future. Anyway, it will help all of us, with a potential problem
someday.

Thanks, and dobra noc,
Joe

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dominik Wos" <dominik@derpal.com.pl>
To: <ap-gto@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:08 PM
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ?


Hi Joe,

OK, I will once again dismantle the keypad to take some pictures and
will post them on the Group. You will see the repair and what is
inside the keypad.

All the best,
Dominik

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Zeglinski" <J.Zeglinski@...>
wrote:

Hi Dominik,

Glad to hear that all is well, after the fix.

For the rest of us, perhaps, you could clarify, just in case we
run into a
similar problem. In anticipation of other's questions, (Marj was
not quite
clear on your post), perhaps we have a very slight misunderstanding
in
translation - when you mention "silver" traces.

I have never seen "silver" used in PCB contacts or traces on
circuit
boards - they are either gold plated or beryllium plated contacts,
and circuit
traces were, until recently perhaps, always lead/tin solder. I
wonder where
the "silver" comes in to play. Unless, silver is being used somehow
to replace
solder, in order to meet Europe's ROHS pollution standard - an
expensive
solution, but this board likely predates that requirement.

Also, circuit traces, even if they are the "old solder
standard", are
almost always covered by a green layer of protective "conformal
coating", on
good quality circuit board products, which must be standard for
Astro Physics
products, surely.

So, I don't quite understand where your friend found
anything "silver". Is
it possible that he is using our Polish term "srebny", which
describes things
that are "silver coloured", in referring to the "colour" of solder
(traces)?
Even so, I am surprised he could get to the solder trace without
some effort
to scrape away the green conformal coating, painted over it.

Be that as it may, it would appear that there was a possible
bad spot in
the "wave soldering" of the board, leaving a short segment of the
original
"copper trace" on the etched PCB exposed, which obviously has
corroded over
the last 5 years, or more. This break in the trace caused a loss of
some
signal in the Keypad circuit, which your friend expertly cleaned
and
resoldered - he has a good eye to have spotted it. Now everything
is operating
normally.
If so, I wonder about the quality checks made by the original
keypad
manufacturer.

Have I got this right?

Anyway, I probably just made a short story ... long ;-)
Best regards,
Joe (a.k.a. Jozef)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dominik Wos" <dominik@...>
To: <ap-gto@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 5:27 PM
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ?


Czesc Jozefie,

U mnie wszystko OK. Dzieki :-)

So where the problem was ? According to my neighbour the plastic
keypad which is inside is very sensitive to corrosion (he
manyfactures electronics for agiculture machines and uses this
kind
of products). The paths are made from silver. Accourding to him
it is
a rather common problem esspecialy that I bought my mount second
hand
and I belive it is 2002.



To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-gto list
see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-gto
Yahoo! Groups Links




Dominik Wos <dominik@...>
 

Joe,

Here you are two images. Sorry for their poor quality. On the first
one you will see the plastic (telephony ?) keypad with a wire
connected to one of its paths. On the second one the wire is
connected directly to the board.

http://www.astrophotography.pl/testy/ap1200/ap1200_keypad_p0.jpg

http://www.astrophotography.pl/testy/ap1200/ap1200_keypad_p1.jpg

Do you know where I could buy such a telephony keypad to have it just
in case of next problems with mine (to come - according to my
neighbour) ?

All the best from Poland,
Trzymaj sie Jozefie.

Dominik


--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Zeglinski" <J.Zeglinski@...>
wrote:

Thanks Dominik,

Are there two PCB's inside - one is the keypad, and the other,
the
processor and display? I think Marj may be wondering if you had a
problem just
with the keypad PCB ( which is made by another supplier), or the
processor
PCB, if there is more than one board inside.

The picture will put everyone's mind at rest - or maybe something
to watch out
for, in future. Anyway, it will help all of us, with a potential
problem
someday.

Thanks, and dobra noc,
Joe


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dominik Wos" <dominik@...>
To: <ap-gto@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:08 PM
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ?


Hi Joe,

OK, I will once again dismantle the keypad to take some pictures
and
will post them on the Group. You will see the repair and what is
inside the keypad.

All the best,
Dominik

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Zeglinski" <J.Zeglinski@>
wrote:

Hi Dominik,

Glad to hear that all is well, after the fix.

For the rest of us, perhaps, you could clarify, just in case
we
run into a
similar problem. In anticipation of other's questions, (Marj was
not quite
clear on your post), perhaps we have a very slight
misunderstanding
in
translation - when you mention "silver" traces.

I have never seen "silver" used in PCB contacts or traces on
circuit
boards - they are either gold plated or beryllium plated
contacts,
and circuit
traces were, until recently perhaps, always lead/tin solder. I
wonder where
the "silver" comes in to play. Unless, silver is being used
somehow
to replace
solder, in order to meet Europe's ROHS pollution standard - an
expensive
solution, but this board likely predates that requirement.

Also, circuit traces, even if they are the "old solder
standard", are
almost always covered by a green layer of protective "conformal
coating", on
good quality circuit board products, which must be standard for
Astro Physics
products, surely.

So, I don't quite understand where your friend found
anything "silver". Is
it possible that he is using our Polish term "srebny", which
describes things
that are "silver coloured", in referring to the "colour" of
solder
(traces)?
Even so, I am surprised he could get to the solder trace without
some effort
to scrape away the green conformal coating, painted over it.

Be that as it may, it would appear that there was a possible
bad spot in
the "wave soldering" of the board, leaving a short segment of the
original
"copper trace" on the etched PCB exposed, which obviously has
corroded over
the last 5 years, or more. This break in the trace caused a loss
of
some
signal in the Keypad circuit, which your friend expertly cleaned
and
resoldered - he has a good eye to have spotted it. Now everything
is operating
normally.
If so, I wonder about the quality checks made by the original
keypad
manufacturer.

Have I got this right?

Anyway, I probably just made a short story ... long ;-)
Best regards,
Joe (a.k.a. Jozef)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dominik Wos" <dominik@>
To: <ap-gto@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 5:27 PM
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ?


Czesc Jozefie,

U mnie wszystko OK. Dzieki :-)

So where the problem was ? According to my neighbour the
plastic
keypad which is inside is very sensitive to corrosion (he
manyfactures electronics for agiculture machines and uses this
kind
of products). The paths are made from silver. Accourding to him
it is
a rather common problem esspecialy that I bought my mount
second
hand
and I belive it is 2002.



To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-gto list
see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-gto
Yahoo! Groups Links




Joe Zeglinski
 

Czesc Dominik,

Nice to see what the inside of the hand controller looks like. It would
seem that there was a poorly wave soldered pad under pin 10 in the 28 pin
"keycode decoder IC" - I assume that the keypad "flexible printed circuit
ribbon" itself, was not the "corrosion" which you had described in earlier
emails.

Hopefully this was a remote case of some poor quality soldering of the
copper etch trace, at that pin, and that this situation is uncommon, based on
AP's quality control of it's suppliers, such as this keypad manufacturer. I
was told that this unit is NOT made by AP themselves.

As for a spare, AP does sell that entire hand controller, but I wouldn't
buy a spare because this is constantly changing. You might not need a
replacement for several years, if (hopefully) ever again. By then, AP might
improve it, such as adding a lot more RAM, to handle even more programmed
features. The standard AP hand controller (keypad) is warranteed for at least
3 years, at present, according to the manual, so unless there is a rash of
problems, you shouldn't waste money on a backup. If you are taking about
"just" the keypad itself, nobody makes an identical part - this is a very
specialized application, as most such keypad products are.

If these photos don't completely answer Marj Christen's earlier concerns,
she might want to offer a refurbished replacement, to get yours back for a
"quality analysis", and so you don't suffer any down time either - but I think
since you have already fixed it, there shouldn't be any further problems.

We all here, notice, however, that both Roland and Marj were very
concerned about your problem, but seem to be having trouble reaching you by
direct personal email. Perhaps their emails are being "locked out" by that
nasty "free ISP spam guard utility" that your Polish ISP might be using. ( I
have had friends put auttomatically, on a "delete email list" by the ONET.PL
ISP, for no good reason - and the account owner wasn't even informed). Then
again, check your own spam guard for blocked senders. AP's emails might look
like spam to your filters.

Alternately, try contacting Marj at AP, via a different email ( a
friend's, etc.), so she can try THAT address to reach you successfully, using
a different route, or even "snail mail".

However, if your electronics friend does see "other corrosion" that will
potentially soon cause problems, then definitely, AP should get your unit for
a detailed analysis, in case that production run is only the start of a real
mess of issues with other similar units. Their supplier needs to be warned.

I will leave that topic between you and Marj, at AP.

Glad your friend has done a good repair.

(Do dalszego uslyszenia),
Joe

---- Original Message -----
From: "Dominik Wos" <dominik@derpal.com.pl>
To: <ap-gto@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 10:15 AM
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ?


Joe,

Here you are two images. Sorry for their poor quality. On the first
one you will see the plastic (telephony ?) keypad with a wire
connected to one of its paths. On the second one the wire is
connected directly to the board.

http://www.astrophotography.pl/testy/ap1200/ap1200_keypad_p0.jpg

http://www.astrophotography.pl/testy/ap1200/ap1200_keypad_p1.jpg

Do you know where I could buy such a telephony keypad to have it just
in case of next problems with mine (to come - according to my
neighbour) ?

All the best from Poland,
Trzymaj sie Jozefie.

Dominik


Joe Zeglinski
 

Hi Dominik,

Your electronic friend was absolutely right about the "potential" keyboard
corrosion problem!

I just happened to be thumbing through the: "Astro-Physics GTO KEYPAD
Version v4.12" user manual, and discovered that it confirms this to be perhaps
somewhat common.

See page # 63 Troubleshooting:
Problem:
"The keypad locks up on the Astro-Physics screen and will not advance to the
next screen".

Now: look at the final "bulleted" possibility, at the top of the next page #
64:
"Corroded circuit board in the keypad"

I suppose, when I first read that, I just assumed this happens from salt
air, for observers near the ocean. Maybe it is more common than we thought.
Strange though: I figured that the entire hand controller is completely
sealed. Would it help to apply a thin bead of Vaseline to the edge of he case,
sealing it before reassembling, so no corrosive air gets inside, or is the
corrosion a natural occurrence caused by solder flux? Perhaps the new ROHS
mandated by Europe will help newer versions.

I would hope that the circuit board has a "conformal coating" applied to
it on both sides, to prevent such corrosion. As for connectors, they should
have gold plated pins and circuit board contacts. Maybe that is the reason for
the limited warranty period.

Joe

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dominik Wos" <dominik@derpal.com.pl>
To: <ap-gto@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 10:15 AM
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ?


Joe,

Here you are two images. Sorry for their poor quality. On the first
one you will see the plastic (telephony ?) keypad with a wire
connected to one of its paths. On the second one the wire is
connected directly to the board.

http://www.astrophotography.pl/testy/ap1200/ap1200_keypad_p0.jpg

http://www.astrophotography.pl/testy/ap1200/ap1200_keypad_p1.jpg

Do you know where I could buy such a telephony keypad to have it just
in case of next problems with mine (to come - according to my
neighbour) ?

All the best from Poland,
Trzymaj sie Jozefie.

Dominik


Roland Christen
 

In a message dated 4/23/2007 11:22:56 PM Central Daylight Time,
J.Zeglinski@rogers.com writes:


Your electronic friend was absolutely right about the "potential" keyboard
corrosion problem!
I think you are going overboard on this. This is the first time in 10 years
that a keypad has had this problem. Why make a mountain out of an Angstrom?

Rolando


**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.


Joe Zeglinski
 

Thanks Roland,

Glad that keypad corrosion is no longer a concern - and that the reference
to it in the Trouble shooting section of the keypad user manual, will be
removed in the next revision. After all, as far as trouble shooting is
concerned, I don't think you want the user checking the circuit board, in the
first three years. Non electronics specialists shouldn't be encouraged to
check inside anyway.

Joe

----- Original Message -----
From: <chris1011@aol.com>
To: <ap-gto@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ?


In a message dated 4/23/2007 11:22:56 PM Central Daylight Time,
J.Zeglinski@rogers.com writes:


Your electronic friend was absolutely right about the "potential" keyboard
corrosion problem!
I think you are going overboard on this. This is the first time in 10 years
that a keypad has had this problem. Why make a mountain out of an Angstrom?

Rolando


**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.






To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-gto list
see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-gto
Yahoo! Groups Links




Dominik Wos <dominik@...>
 

Hi,

Once again - my problem is not longer the issue but ...

I appreciate Marj contacting me very quickly to investigate the
problem with a promise to check what the reaseon could be but ...

It is me and my friend who took an action and finaly repaired the
keypad without any help from AP. If I relay on AP I would probably
pay for a new keypad (US$995). Thanks but no thanks.

Still I am very happy with my AP 1200GTO. :-)

Best regards from Poland (Europe),
Dominik
www.astrophotography.pl/eng



--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Zeglinski" <J.Zeglinski@...>
wrote:

Thanks Roland,

Glad that keypad corrosion is no longer a concern - and that
the reference
to it in the Trouble shooting section of the keypad user manual,
will be
removed in the next revision. After all, as far as trouble shooting
is
concerned, I don't think you want the user checking the circuit
board, in the
first three years. Non electronics specialists shouldn't be
encouraged to
check inside anyway.

Joe

----- Original Message -----
From: <chris1011@...>
To: <ap-gto@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ?


In a message dated 4/23/2007 11:22:56 PM Central Daylight Time,
J.Zeglinski@... writes:


Your electronic friend was absolutely right about
the "potential" keyboard
corrosion problem!
I think you are going overboard on this. This is the first time
in 10 years
that a keypad has had this problem. Why make a mountain out of an
Angstrom?

Rolando


**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-gto list
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Yahoo! Groups Links




 

Dear Mr. Wos,

I am sure that the keypad could have been repaired for far less money than replacement costt, however it it good that you were able to solve the problem yourself. Enjoy your mount!


Marj Christen
Astro-Physics, Inc
11250 Forest Hills Road
Machesney Park, IL 61115
Phone: 815-282-1513
Fax: 815-282-9847
www.astro-physics.com
Please include this e-mail with your response.

-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ap-gto@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Dominik Wos
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 12:16 PM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ?



Hi,

Once again - my problem is not longer the issue but ...

I appreciate Marj contacting me very quickly to investigate the
problem with a promise to check what the reaseon could be but ...

It is me and my friend who took an action and finaly repaired the
keypad without any help from AP. If I relay on AP I would probably
pay for a new keypad (US$995). Thanks but no thanks.

Still I am very happy with my AP 1200GTO. :-)

Best regards from Poland (Europe),
Dominik
www.astrophotography.pl/eng

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups. <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> com, "Joseph Zeglinski" <J.Zeglinski@...>
wrote:

Thanks Roland,

Glad that keypad corrosion is no longer a concern - and that
the reference
to it in the Trouble shooting section of the keypad user manual,
will be
removed in the next revision. After all, as far as trouble shooting
is
concerned, I don't think you want the user checking the circuit
board, in the
first three years. Non electronics specialists shouldn't be
encouraged to
check inside anyway.

Joe

----- Original Message -----
From: <chris1011@...>
To: < ap-gto@yahoogroups. <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ?


In a message dated 4/23/2007 11:22:56 PM Central Daylight Time,
J.Zeglinski@... writes:


Your electronic friend was absolutely right about
the "potential" keyboard
corrosion problem!
I think you are going overboard on this. This is the first time
in 10 years
that a keypad has had this problem. Why make a mountain out of an
Angstrom?

Rolando


**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol. <http://www.aol.com.> com.






To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-gto list
see http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-gto> yahoo.com/group/ap-gto
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