Date
1 - 18 of 18
Keypad problem ?
Dominik Wos <dominik@...>
Hi to the Group !
I have a problem with my 1200GTO keypad. After unusing the mount for one week I switched it on and from this time the three left keys do not work (1, 6 and Goto). All other keys are ok and the mount is fully operational with using RS232 conection but without having access to "1" key I can not use goto without my laptop. Strange ? Has anyone had the same problem ? Best regards, Dominik
|
|
Roland Christen
In a message dated 3/29/2007 9:44:42 AM Central Daylight Time,
dominik@... writes: I have a problem with my 1200GTO keypad. After unusing the mount forI don't think anyone has ever had this problem. However, if they did, they would have to send the keypad to Astro-Physics to get it fixed, which is what i would recomend for you. It would not be possible to fix this any other way. Rolando ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
|
|
Dear Dominick,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I have never heard of this problem before. Please try it again and if the situation remains, give us a call to obtain a return authorization #. Marj Christen Astro-Physics, Inc 11250 Forest Hills Road Machesney Park, IL 61115 Phone: 815-282-1513 Fax: 815-282-9847 www.astro-physics.com Please include this e-mail with your response.
-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]On Behalf Of Dominik Wos Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 4:54 AM To: ap-gto@... Subject: [ap-gto] Keypad problem ? Hi to the Group ! I have a problem with my 1200GTO keypad. After unusing the mount for one week I switched it on and from this time the three left keys do not work (1, 6 and Goto). All other keys are ok and the mount is fully operational with using RS232 conection but without having access to "1" key I can not use goto without my laptop. Strange ? Has anyone had the same problem ? Best regards, Dominik
|
|
Dominik Wos <dominik@...>
Thanks for your response. The only problem is my location - Poland,
Europe so it is not so easy for me to send the keypad to the US. It works and only the first row of left side keys do not work (I press it but there is no reaction) and as I use the mount in my observatory I can live without this first row. I have looked into the keypad to see how it works and it is rather simply built but I have no idea what inside the keypad is not working properly. Anyway thanks for your advice, Dominik --- In ap-gto@..., "Marj" <marj@...> wrote: if the situation remains, give us a call to obtain a return authorization #. Behalf Of Dominik Wos Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 4:54 AMfor one week I switched it on and from this time the three left keys donot work (1, 6 and Goto). All other keys are ok and the mount is fullyto "1" key I can not use goto without my laptop. Strange ? Has anyone hadthe same problem ?
|
|
Dear Dominik,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I have e-mailed you privately re: your keypad problem, but I have not heard from you yet. Please check your e-mail. Thank you. Marj Christen Astro-Physics, Inc 11250 Forest Hills Road Machesney Park, IL 61115 Phone: 815-282-1513 Fax: 815-282-9847 www.astro-physics.com Please include this e-mail with your response.
-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]On Behalf Of Dominik Wos Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 12:20 PM To: ap-gto@... Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ? Thanks for your response. The only problem is my location - Poland, Europe so it is not so easy for me to send the keypad to the US. It works and only the first row of left side keys do not work (I press it but there is no reaction) and as I use the mount in my observatory I can live without this first row. I have looked into the keypad to see how it works and it is rather simply built but I have no idea what inside the keypad is not working properly. Anyway thanks for your advice, Dominik --- In ap-gto@yahoogroups. <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> com, "Marj" <marj@...> wrote: if the situation remains, give us a call to obtain a return authorization #. Behalf Of Dominik Wos Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 4:54 AMfor one week I switched it on and from this time the three left keys donot work (1, 6 and Goto). All other keys are ok and the mount is fullyto "1" key I can not use goto without my laptop. Strange ? Has anyone hadthe same problem ?
|
|
Dominik Wos <dominik@...>
Hi,
Just to let you know my problem has been resolved with some help of my neighbour who deals with electronics. The problem was the plastic dial keypad which is inside AP keypad. After reparing one of its paths now the whole keypad work just fine (at least it should for some time). All the best from Poland, Dominik --- In ap-gto@..., "Marj" <marj@...> wrote: not heard from you yet. Please check your e-mail. Thank you. Behalf Of Dominik Wos Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 12:20 PMobservatory I can live without this first row. I have looked into the keypad tocom, "Marj" <marj@> wrote: and if the situation remains, give us a call to obtain a return[mailto: ap-gto@yahoogroups. <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> com]On Behalf Of Dominik WosdoSent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 4:54 AMfor notfullywork (1, 6 and Goto). All other keys are ok and the mount is hadoperational with using RS232 conection but without having accessto "1"key I can not use goto without my laptop. Strange ? Has anyone thesame problem ?
|
|
Joe Zeglinski
Czesc Dominik,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Jak sie masz? Just as a side note on most "elastomer keypads" (like those on your TV remote) in general. I don't know if this is the same type as inside the AP keypad, though. I have found that the rubber membrane on a "typical electronics product keypad" leaches out some kind of oil as the years go by, probably more if the push buttons are used very often, like "TV channel surfing". I suspect this is the embedded "rubber mould, release agent", that remains behind in the rubber during manufacture, and slowly comes to the surface. Surprisingly, the oil film on the PCB, seemed about 1/16 inch thick! Quite a puddle, not just a film. There is no way that the carbon bump under the rubber button could make electrical contact with the etched copper pattern under it, through that much oil. I have now repaired my old Jerrold TV remote keypad about 3 times, and a few others for relatives, simply by taking the case apart, and washing both the rubber sheet and the matching contacts on the circuit board. I just poured the Palmolive soap on the PCB, dunked the circuit board in the sink, and gently scrubbed off the oil in the mild sudsy dish washing soap (NOT dish washer detergent). On one unit, I tried, (unsuccessfully), just spraying the PCB with Windex, Isopropyl alcohol, or similar degreaser, but this scum requires a bit of rubbing with a good soap to make the contacts work longer. The keypad worked fine for another couple of years, or more, before my favourite button (channel skip) leaked out more oil, and another washing. By the way, the oil wasn't from kitchen cooking grease in the air, since the TV remote pad was always in the living room, and certainly hand oils can't leak through a full, solid rubber, sheet of buttons - so there seems to be no external source of this thick oil cover, other than the rubber membrane material itself. Mind you, such home remedies may be frowned upon by the manufacturer - especially dunking the PCB in water - but since I was going to toss it away, I took a chance and continue using my original controller for many years. The water didn't affect the electronics after drying (isopropyl spray like eyeglass cleaner, might be a good final cleanup of any possibly remaining soap). Home repair is better than recycling. By the way - the AP Hand Pad has a 3 year warranty, so don't try the above home remedy, until it has expired, and you aren't sending it in for professional repair. I'm curious, Dominik, when you took the AP keypad apart, how clean was the PCB surface, and how old is your unit? I can't imagine why there was a "trace" needing repair, or how it might have been damaged. That is a quality concern. I wonder if the PCB can't take a lot of push button flexing, in the cold. Thanks, Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dominik Wos" <dominik@...> To: <ap-gto@...> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:28 PM Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ? Hi,
|
|
Dominik Wos <dominik@...>
Czesc Jozefie,
U mnie wszystko OK. Dzieki :-) So where the problem was ? According to my neighbour the plastic keypad which is inside is very sensitive to corrosion (he manyfactures electronics for agiculture machines and uses this kind of products). The paths are made from silver. Accourding to him it is a rather common problem esspecialy that I bought my mount second hand and I belive it is 2002. It may be the case that after some time you may have the same problem as mine. My keypad has been successfuly repaired with no cost from my side. As you said - Home repair is better than recycling. I wanted to take some pictures of my neighbour work but he said that this was our know how and we should keep it secret. :-))) Anyway I remember the case with my FLI filter wheel USB interface. Unfortunately I used 12V power supply form SBIG STV (different polarization) and the chip responsible for controlling the stepper motor exploded - quite a loud noise (one simple diode used in the design would sort out the issue I think). The response for FLI customer support was that it could not be repaired and I can get a new one for US$199. Fortunately thanks to "home repair" (exchange of a standard chip) it could come back to life and the cost for me was US$2 (two dollars). :-))) Trzymaj sie Jozefie. Best regards, Dominik --- In ap-gto@..., "Joseph Zeglinski" <J.Zeglinski@...> wrote: your TV remote) in general.though. product keypad" leaches out some kind of oil as the years go by, probablymore if the push buttons are used very often, like "TV channel surfing". Isuspect this is the embedded "rubber mould, release agent", that remains behind inthe rubber during manufacture, and slowly comes to the surface. Surprisingly,the oil film on the PCB, seemed about 1/16 inch thick! Quite a puddle, notjust a film. There is no way that the carbon bump under the rubber buttoncould make electrical contact with the etched copper pattern under it, throughthat much oil. I have now repaired my old Jerrold TV remote keypad about 3times, and a few others for relatives, simply by taking the case apart, andwashing both the rubber sheet and the matching contacts on the circuit board. Ijust poured the Palmolive soap on the PCB, dunked the circuit board in thesink, and gently scrubbed off the oil in the mild sudsy dish washing soap(NOT dish washer detergent). On one unit, I tried, (unsuccessfully), justspraying the PCB with Windex, Isopropyl alcohol, or similar degreaser, but thisscum requires a bit of rubbing with a good soap to make the contactswork longer. The keypad worked fine for another couple of years, or more, beforemy favourite button (channel skip) leaked out more oil, and anotherwashing. air, since the TV remote pad was always in the living room, and certainly handoils can't leak through a full, solid rubber, sheet of buttons - so thereseems to be no external source of this thick oil cover, other than the rubbermembrane material itself.manufacturer - especially dunking the PCB in water - but since I was going totoss it away, I took a chance and continue using my original controller for manyyears. The water didn't affect the electronics after drying (isopropyl spraylike eyeglass cleaner, might be a good final cleanup of any possiblyremaining soap).try the above home remedy, until it has expired, and you aren't sending it in forclean was the PCB surface, and how old is your unit? I can't imagine why therewas a "trace" needing repair, or how it might have been damaged. That is aquality concern. I wonder if the PCB can't take a lot of push button flexing, in thecold. of finemy neighbour who deals with electronics. Poland,(at least it should for some time). ItEurope so it is not so easy for me to send the keypad to the US. pressworks and only the first row of left side keys do not work (I toit but there is no reaction) and as I use the mount in myobservatoryI can live without this first row. I have looked into the keypad com]Onsee how it works and it is rather simply built but I have no ideacom, "Marj" <marj@> wrote: mountBehalf Of Dominik WosSent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 4:54 AM keysforone week I switched it on and from this time the three left accessdonotfullywork (1, 6 and Goto). All other keys are ok and the mount isoperational with using RS232 conection but without having to "1"hadkey I can not use goto without my laptop. Strange ? Has anyonethesame problem ?
|
|
Joe Zeglinski
Hi Dominik,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Glad to hear that all is well, after the fix. For the rest of us, perhaps, you could clarify, just in case we run into a similar problem. In anticipation of other's questions, (Marj was not quite clear on your post), perhaps we have a very slight misunderstanding in translation - when you mention "silver" traces. I have never seen "silver" used in PCB contacts or traces on circuit boards - they are either gold plated or beryllium plated contacts, and circuit traces were, until recently perhaps, always lead/tin solder. I wonder where the "silver" comes in to play. Unless, silver is being used somehow to replace solder, in order to meet Europe's ROHS pollution standard - an expensive solution, but this board likely predates that requirement. Also, circuit traces, even if they are the "old solder standard", are almost always covered by a green layer of protective "conformal coating", on good quality circuit board products, which must be standard for Astro Physics products, surely. So, I don't quite understand where your friend found anything "silver". Is it possible that he is using our Polish term "srebny", which describes things that are "silver coloured", in referring to the "colour" of solder (traces)? Even so, I am surprised he could get to the solder trace without some effort to scrape away the green conformal coating, painted over it. Be that as it may, it would appear that there was a possible bad spot in the "wave soldering" of the board, leaving a short segment of the original "copper trace" on the etched PCB exposed, which obviously has corroded over the last 5 years, or more. This break in the trace caused a loss of some signal in the Keypad circuit, which your friend expertly cleaned and resoldered - he has a good eye to have spotted it. Now everything is operating normally. If so, I wonder about the quality checks made by the original keypad manufacturer. Have I got this right? Anyway, I probably just made a short story ... long ;-) Best regards, Joe (a.k.a. Jozef)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dominik Wos" <dominik@...> To: <ap-gto@...> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 5:27 PM Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ? Czesc Jozefie,
|
|
Dominik Wos <dominik@...>
Hi Joe,
OK, I will once again dismantle the keypad to take some pictures and will post them on the Group. You will see the repair and what is inside the keypad. All the best, Dominik --- In ap-gto@..., "Joseph Zeglinski" <J.Zeglinski@...> wrote: run into a similar problem. In anticipation of other's questions, (Marj wasnot quite clear on your post), perhaps we have a very slight misunderstandingin translation - when you mention "silver" traces.circuit boards - they are either gold plated or beryllium plated contacts,and circuit traces were, until recently perhaps, always lead/tin solder. Iwonder where the "silver" comes in to play. Unless, silver is being used somehowto replace solder, in order to meet Europe's ROHS pollution standard - anexpensive solution, but this board likely predates that requirement.standard", are almost always covered by a green layer of protective "conformalcoating", on good quality circuit board products, which must be standard forAstro Physics products, surely.anything "silver". Is it possible that he is using our Polish term "srebny", whichdescribes things that are "silver coloured", in referring to the "colour" of solder(traces)? Even so, I am surprised he could get to the solder trace withoutsome effort to scrape away the green conformal coating, painted over it.bad spot in the "wave soldering" of the board, leaving a short segment of theoriginal "copper trace" on the etched PCB exposed, which obviously hascorroded over the last 5 years, or more. This break in the trace caused a loss ofsome signal in the Keypad circuit, which your friend expertly cleanedand resoldered - he has a good eye to have spotted it. Now everythingis operating normally.keypad manufacturer.kind it isof products). The paths are made from silver. Accourding to him handa rather common problem esspecialy that I bought my mount second and I belive it is 2002.
|
|
Joe Zeglinski
Thanks Dominik,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Are there two PCB's inside - one is the keypad, and the other, the processor and display? I think Marj may be wondering if you had a problem just with the keypad PCB ( which is made by another supplier), or the processor PCB, if there is more than one board inside. The picture will put everyone's mind at rest - or maybe something to watch out for, in future. Anyway, it will help all of us, with a potential problem someday. Thanks, and dobra noc, Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dominik Wos" <dominik@...> To: <ap-gto@...> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:08 PM Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ? Hi Joe,
|
|
Dominik Wos <dominik@...>
Joe,
Here you are two images. Sorry for their poor quality. On the first one you will see the plastic (telephony ?) keypad with a wire connected to one of its paths. On the second one the wire is connected directly to the board. http://www.astrophotography.pl/testy/ap1200/ap1200_keypad_p0.jpg http://www.astrophotography.pl/testy/ap1200/ap1200_keypad_p1.jpg Do you know where I could buy such a telephony keypad to have it just in case of next problems with mine (to come - according to my neighbour) ? All the best from Poland, Trzymaj sie Jozefie. Dominik --- In ap-gto@..., "Joseph Zeglinski" <J.Zeglinski@...> wrote: the processor and display? I think Marj may be wondering if you had aproblem just with the keypad PCB ( which is made by another supplier), or theprocessor PCB, if there is more than one board inside.to watch out for, in future. Anyway, it will help all of us, with a potentialproblem someday.and wewill post them on the Group. You will see the repair and what is misunderstandingrun into asimilar problem. In anticipation of other's questions, (Marj wasnot quiteclear on your post), perhaps we have a very slight contacts,intranslation - when you mention "silver" traces.circuit somehowand circuittraces were, until recently perhaps, always lead/tin solder. Iwonder wherethe "silver" comes in to play. Unless, silver is being used solderto replacesolder, in order to meet Europe's ROHS pollution standard - anexpensivesolution, but this board likely predates that requirement.standard", are of(traces)?Even so, I am surprised he could get to the solder trace withoutsome effortto scrape away the green conformal coating, painted over it.bad spot in plasticsomesignal in the Keypad circuit, which your friend expertly cleanedandresoldered - he has a good eye to have spotted it. Now everythingis operatingnormally.keypad secondkindkeypad which is inside is very sensitive to corrosion (he handand I belive it is 2002.
|
|
Joe Zeglinski
Czesc Dominik,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Nice to see what the inside of the hand controller looks like. It would seem that there was a poorly wave soldered pad under pin 10 in the 28 pin "keycode decoder IC" - I assume that the keypad "flexible printed circuit ribbon" itself, was not the "corrosion" which you had described in earlier emails. Hopefully this was a remote case of some poor quality soldering of the copper etch trace, at that pin, and that this situation is uncommon, based on AP's quality control of it's suppliers, such as this keypad manufacturer. I was told that this unit is NOT made by AP themselves. As for a spare, AP does sell that entire hand controller, but I wouldn't buy a spare because this is constantly changing. You might not need a replacement for several years, if (hopefully) ever again. By then, AP might improve it, such as adding a lot more RAM, to handle even more programmed features. The standard AP hand controller (keypad) is warranteed for at least 3 years, at present, according to the manual, so unless there is a rash of problems, you shouldn't waste money on a backup. If you are taking about "just" the keypad itself, nobody makes an identical part - this is a very specialized application, as most such keypad products are. If these photos don't completely answer Marj Christen's earlier concerns, she might want to offer a refurbished replacement, to get yours back for a "quality analysis", and so you don't suffer any down time either - but I think since you have already fixed it, there shouldn't be any further problems. We all here, notice, however, that both Roland and Marj were very concerned about your problem, but seem to be having trouble reaching you by direct personal email. Perhaps their emails are being "locked out" by that nasty "free ISP spam guard utility" that your Polish ISP might be using. ( I have had friends put auttomatically, on a "delete email list" by the ONET.PL ISP, for no good reason - and the account owner wasn't even informed). Then again, check your own spam guard for blocked senders. AP's emails might look like spam to your filters. Alternately, try contacting Marj at AP, via a different email ( a friend's, etc.), so she can try THAT address to reach you successfully, using a different route, or even "snail mail". However, if your electronics friend does see "other corrosion" that will potentially soon cause problems, then definitely, AP should get your unit for a detailed analysis, in case that production run is only the start of a real mess of issues with other similar units. Their supplier needs to be warned. I will leave that topic between you and Marj, at AP. Glad your friend has done a good repair. (Do dalszego uslyszenia), Joe
---- Original Message -----
From: "Dominik Wos" <dominik@...> To: <ap-gto@...> Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 10:15 AM Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ? Joe,
|
|
Joe Zeglinski
Hi Dominik,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Your electronic friend was absolutely right about the "potential" keyboard corrosion problem! I just happened to be thumbing through the: "Astro-Physics GTO KEYPAD Version v4.12" user manual, and discovered that it confirms this to be perhaps somewhat common. See page # 63 Troubleshooting: Problem: "The keypad locks up on the Astro-Physics screen and will not advance to the next screen". Now: look at the final "bulleted" possibility, at the top of the next page # 64: "Corroded circuit board in the keypad" I suppose, when I first read that, I just assumed this happens from salt air, for observers near the ocean. Maybe it is more common than we thought. Strange though: I figured that the entire hand controller is completely sealed. Would it help to apply a thin bead of Vaseline to the edge of he case, sealing it before reassembling, so no corrosive air gets inside, or is the corrosion a natural occurrence caused by solder flux? Perhaps the new ROHS mandated by Europe will help newer versions. I would hope that the circuit board has a "conformal coating" applied to it on both sides, to prevent such corrosion. As for connectors, they should have gold plated pins and circuit board contacts. Maybe that is the reason for the limited warranty period. Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dominik Wos" <dominik@...> To: <ap-gto@...> Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 10:15 AM Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ? Joe,
|
|
Roland Christen
In a message dated 4/23/2007 11:22:56 PM Central Daylight Time,
J.Zeglinski@... writes: Your electronic friend was absolutely right about the "potential" keyboardI think you are going overboard on this. This is the first time in 10 years that a keypad has had this problem. Why make a mountain out of an Angstrom? Rolando ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
|
|
Joe Zeglinski
Thanks Roland,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Glad that keypad corrosion is no longer a concern - and that the reference to it in the Trouble shooting section of the keypad user manual, will be removed in the next revision. After all, as far as trouble shooting is concerned, I don't think you want the user checking the circuit board, in the first three years. Non electronics specialists shouldn't be encouraged to check inside anyway. Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: <chris1011@...> To: <ap-gto@...> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 12:38 PM Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ? In a message dated 4/23/2007 11:22:56 PM Central Daylight Time,
|
|
Dominik Wos <dominik@...>
Hi,
Once again - my problem is not longer the issue but ... I appreciate Marj contacting me very quickly to investigate the problem with a promise to check what the reaseon could be but ... It is me and my friend who took an action and finaly repaired the keypad without any help from AP. If I relay on AP I would probably pay for a new keypad (US$995). Thanks but no thanks. Still I am very happy with my AP 1200GTO. :-) Best regards from Poland (Europe), Dominik www.astrophotography.pl/eng --- In ap-gto@..., "Joseph Zeglinski" <J.Zeglinski@...> wrote: the reference to it in the Trouble shooting section of the keypad user manual,will be removed in the next revision. After all, as far as trouble shootingis concerned, I don't think you want the user checking the circuitboard, in the first three years. Non electronics specialists shouldn't beencouraged to check inside anyway.the "potential" keyboard in 10 yearscorrosion problem!I think you are going overboard on this. This is the first time Angstrom?that a keypad has had this problem. Why make a mountain out of an
|
|
Dear Mr. Wos,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I am sure that the keypad could have been repaired for far less money than replacement costt, however it it good that you were able to solve the problem yourself. Enjoy your mount! Marj Christen Astro-Physics, Inc 11250 Forest Hills Road Machesney Park, IL 61115 Phone: 815-282-1513 Fax: 815-282-9847 www.astro-physics.com Please include this e-mail with your response.
-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]On Behalf Of Dominik Wos Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 12:16 PM To: ap-gto@... Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Keypad problem ? Hi, Once again - my problem is not longer the issue but ... I appreciate Marj contacting me very quickly to investigate the problem with a promise to check what the reaseon could be but ... It is me and my friend who took an action and finaly repaired the keypad without any help from AP. If I relay on AP I would probably pay for a new keypad (US$995). Thanks but no thanks. Still I am very happy with my AP 1200GTO. :-) Best regards from Poland (Europe), Dominik www.astrophotography.pl/eng --- In ap-gto@yahoogroups. <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> com, "Joseph Zeglinski" <J.Zeglinski@...> wrote: the reference to it in the Trouble shooting section of the keypad user manual,will be removed in the next revision. After all, as far as trouble shootingis concerned, I don't think you want the user checking the circuitboard, in the first three years. Non electronics specialists shouldn't beencouraged to check inside anyway.the "potential" keyboard in 10 yearscorrosion problem!I think you are going overboard on this. This is the first time Angstrom?that a keypad has had this problem. Why make a mountain out of an
|
|