Date   

Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Roland Christen
 


How accurate is centering a star by eye.
I actually do it automatically in MaximDL. I switch the main camera over to guide mode, let the guider program pick whatever star it wants in the image and let it autoguide. At the end of 3  - 5 minutes I press the Enter button on the keypad and let the program advance to the next calibration point. I don't do the centering manually, i let MaximDL do that. When I have gathered enough points I switch the camera back over to imaging and take my exposures.

I can see where Atrack can adjust the guide rates after each image, however that means that there is drift in the image that is being measured. I'm not 100% convinced that plate solve can determine the position to an accuracy level of sub-arc seconds, so i did not pursue this method. Besides, if you're going to use fancy software for this, then I would simply use APCC Pro and make an all-sky model, and be done with it. My program is for portable setups where the user has a mount, scope and keypad, maybe a laptop and maybe just a digital camera. No fancy software, just the basics to have some imaging fun.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Donald Rudny <mkea13800@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 12:12 am
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Rolando,

I haven’t used Atrack, but have been reviewing the manual and I believe the program continuously adjusts the drift rate as you capture images.  They are saved in a file that is watched by the program and plate solved through Pinpoint.  I believe there is also a modeling routine that I assume can be saved as long as the setup remains the same.  As I say, I’m not 100% sure of this, but it looks like it’s worth taking a look at.  

One question I have on the AP keypad system is accuracy.  How accurate is centering a star by eye.  I would think that a longer time between inputs would be necessary to improve accuracy.  If I have a fairly decent PA, I would think I might need a 10-15 minute drift measurement.  A longer focal length would also help.

Don

Don Rudny


On May 29, 2020, at 6:15 PM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...> wrote:


Basically you get one data point in about 200 seconds (3 - 4 minutes) which sets the drift rate at that point int he sky. So that will work for a while, maybe 1/2 hour to an hour, after which the drift will have changed. So then you take another 3-4 minute run to establish a new drift rate. You do that every hour or so along the path that the object takes.

That's exactly what I'm doing also. 3 - 5 minute drift measurement which is good for an hour. However, if I take just 3 drift measurements along the path, spread out over a 5 - 6 hour period, the CP5 will then compute a continuously variable tracking rate for all points in between for the entire 6 hour period. I can do this measurement all at once before the sun goes down using 3 widely spaced stars of Mag4 or brighter and an H-a filter.  Takes about 15 minutes total. This path is then computed and ready to go when twilight ends. I can even do another object path at a different Dec, download it and be ready to image two objects. In fact, if the two Dec lines are widely spaced, I can image all objects in between also unguided because the model computes the variable tracking rates for the entire sky area as well as +- 10 degrees outside those two Dec lines.

Below see the tracking graphs for the imaging that I am doing tonight. They show how the tracking rates vary over approx 45 minutes.

Rolando

<dummyfile.0.part>



-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Steven <steven447@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, May 29, 2020 9:52 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

That comment has to do with a long-time on-line chess game, not for you/forum. Sorry, it's wrong context, I've a busy day on email today.

In reply to your own query, you set up each object separately. I use the Autosave feature on Maxim and when finished with one object, move to it, train ATrack, an make the second one. It's that simple. The User Guide is a good start and will answer your queries without reference to chess moves. 😉 

S



Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Donald Rudny
 

Rolando,

I haven’t used Atrack, but have been reviewing the manual and I believe the program continuously adjusts the drift rate as you capture images.  They are saved in a file that is watched by the program and plate solved through Pinpoint.  I believe there is also a modeling routine that I assume can be saved as long as the setup remains the same.  As I say, I’m not 100% sure of this, but it looks like it’s worth taking a look at.  

One question I have on the AP keypad system is accuracy.  How accurate is centering a star by eye.  I would think that a longer time between inputs would be necessary to improve accuracy.  If I have a fairly decent PA, I would think I might need a 10-15 minute drift measurement.  A longer focal length would also help.

Don

Don Rudny


On May 29, 2020, at 6:15 PM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...> wrote:


Basically you get one data point in about 200 seconds (3 - 4 minutes) which sets the drift rate at that point int he sky. So that will work for a while, maybe 1/2 hour to an hour, after which the drift will have changed. So then you take another 3-4 minute run to establish a new drift rate. You do that every hour or so along the path that the object takes.

That's exactly what I'm doing also. 3 - 5 minute drift measurement which is good for an hour. However, if I take just 3 drift measurements along the path, spread out over a 5 - 6 hour period, the CP5 will then compute a continuously variable tracking rate for all points in between for the entire 6 hour period. I can do this measurement all at once before the sun goes down using 3 widely spaced stars of Mag4 or brighter and an H-a filter.  Takes about 15 minutes total. This path is then computed and ready to go when twilight ends. I can even do another object path at a different Dec, download it and be ready to image two objects. In fact, if the two Dec lines are widely spaced, I can image all objects in between also unguided because the model computes the variable tracking rates for the entire sky area as well as +- 10 degrees outside those two Dec lines.

Below see the tracking graphs for the imaging that I am doing tonight. They show how the tracking rates vary over approx 45 minutes.

Rolando

<dummyfile.0.part>



-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Steven <steven447@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, May 29, 2020 9:52 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

That comment has to do with a long-time on-line chess game, not for you/forum. Sorry, it's wrong context, I've a busy day on email today.

In reply to your own query, you set up each object separately. I use the Autosave feature on Maxim and when finished with one object, move to it, train ATrack, an make the second one. It's that simple. The User Guide is a good start and will answer your queries without reference to chess moves. 😉 

S



Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Roland Christen
 

Basically you get one data point in about 200 seconds (3 - 4 minutes) which sets the drift rate at that point int he sky. So that will work for a while, maybe 1/2 hour to an hour, after which the drift will have changed. So then you take another 3-4 minute run to establish a new drift rate. You do that every hour or so along the path that the object takes.

That's exactly what I'm doing also. 3 - 5 minute drift measurement which is good for an hour. However, if I take just 3 drift measurements along the path, spread out over a 5 - 6 hour period, the CP5 will then compute a continuously variable tracking rate for all points in between for the entire 6 hour period. I can do this measurement all at once before the sun goes down using 3 widely spaced stars of Mag4 or brighter and an H-a filter. Takes about 15 minutes total. This path is then computed and ready to go when twilight ends. I can even do another object path at a different Dec, download it and be ready to image two objects. In fact, if the two Dec lines are widely spaced, I can image all objects in between also unguided because the model computes the variable tracking rates for the entire sky area as well as +- 10 degrees outside those two Dec lines.

Below see the tracking graphs for the imaging that I am doing tonight. They show how the tracking rates vary over approx 45 minutes.

Rolando




-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Steven <steven447@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, May 29, 2020 9:52 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

That comment has to do with a long-time on-line chess game, not for you/forum. Sorry, it's wrong context, I've a busy day on email today.

In reply to your own query, you set up each object separately. I use the Autosave feature on Maxim and when finished with one object, move to it, train ATrack, an make the second one. It's that simple. The User Guide is a good start and will answer your queries without reference to chess moves. 😉 

S



Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Steven
 

Yes it will.

S


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Geoff Smith <ghsmith45@...>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 11:46 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
 
i haven't logged in here for quite some time and I have missed this interesting topic,  Will the procedure work with an AP900? I have CP4.  If the answer is "yes" then I'll work my way through the thread.
Geoff


Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Geoff Smith
 

i haven't logged in here for quite some time and I have missed this interesting topic,  Will the procedure work with an AP900? I have CP4.  If the answer is "yes" then I'll work my way through the thread.
Geoff


Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Steven
 

That comment has to do with a long-time on-line chess game, not for you/forum. Sorry, it's wrong context, I've a busy day on email today.

In reply to your own query, you set up each object separately. I use the Autosave feature on Maxim and when finished with one object, move to it, train ATrack, an make the second one. It's that simple. The User Guide is a good start and will answer your queries without reference to chess moves. 😉 

S



From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 10:40 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
 
> Didn't take long, he's posed and ready to strike, eh. What reply do you think would be suitable?

ROFL - Just as I thought. Don't you have anything better to do than make up things? :-)

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 7:32 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>
> Didn't take long, he's posed and ready to strike, eh. What reply do you think would be suitable?
> S
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 10:19 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>
> Okay, you are using MaximDL or SkyX Pro, but you still need to script operations if you want to do multiple
> targets in one night.
> You said it "it does what it does easily" on multiple objects in a night. If I gave you three targets, what
> specifically would you
> have to do personally to drive the telescope, camera, filters, focuser, etc.? That is, what software are *you*
> using to handle
> taking those different exposure images (training and science) at multiple locations in the sky?
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro <https://www.astro-
> physics.com/apcc-pro>
> Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 7:00 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> >
> > That's right. I'm using this thru ASCOM, you can use SkyX also, and MaximDL. You just need to set up a
> > 'Watch Folder' for your images, ATrack and PinPoint do the rest. You can save your config profile for next
> time
> > if you like, or not, whatever you prefer.
> > S
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:52 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> >
> > It appears that ATrack doesn't actually take any images or control cameras, it just monitors a folder for new
> > images. Is that
> > correct?
> >
> > So,  which software package are you using to set up taking training images and your science images?
> >
> > -Ray Gralak
> > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 6:31 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > >
> > > I know at first glance this might seem complex but it is actually very quick and easy to do and it works very
> > > well. I am not an expert, but with less effort than a few minutes using ATrack it gives me excellent images
> > with
> > > little to no fuss, something I've been struggling with for years with good autoguiding programs, and it works
> > > every time, very robust. This is not an autoguiding program, it requires a very slightly modified mind-set,
> > that's
> > > all. I can speak from experience that it is simple and it works well and I now have no need at all to go back
> to
> > > autoguiding. Set-up is minor and the software doesn't use the PC registry, thus quick set-up and use. Read
> > thru
> > > the book, takes five minutes to see how to set it up. Calibration takes less time and effort than any
> > autoguiding
> > > software.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > S
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > > Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 8:28 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > >
> > > >        ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
> > > > necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The
> > > methodology
> > > > uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >        Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
> > > > 1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
> > > > software.
> > >
> > > Technically, it is closed loop tracking (auto-guiding) since it using feedback from images to adjust tracking.
> > >
> > > Also, it looks like there is some setup required to create a script or configure the training images for each
> > > target. Which software
> > > package are you using to do that?
> > >
> > > -Ray Gralak
> > > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 4:30 PM
> > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > >
> > > >        The 20 second images are "training" images used by ATrack to determine the drift - just like the
> > > > calibration images in PHD and Maxim, etc. You can use 5 second images, or as many or as long as you
> > > want.
> > > > And you can space them out however you like. For example, you can make 10 x 5 second images with a
> 1
> > > > minute gap between each. Or you can make 2 x 20 second images with a 5 minute gap between each.
> > > Ideally
> > > > though, the best is a sequence of 10 x 20 second consecutive images. The reason is because 20
> seconds
> > > > tends to smooth out seeing conditions. 10 images provides enough data to derive a good average of the
> > drift.
> > > > The more points the better. So it is up to the user to define what is best for the ATrack training sequence.
> > And
> > > > after that you begin your 5 or 10 minute science images, or whatever lengths you like.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >        Typically, the drift rate of a telescope does not change terribly much in 10 minutes. Since ATrack
> sets
> > > > the motors properly, it'll be fine. Obviously, if the seeing changes or something in the system 'jumps' the
> > > scope
> > > > (think "PE", or a physical bump), then it won't work properly, in that case, just re-train. You can insert a
> > > training
> > > > sequence prior to each 10 minute image if you want to ensure that it has the best rates set in the mount
> > > before
> > > > starting.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >        ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
> > > > necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The
> > > methodology
> > > > uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >        Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
> > > > 1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
> > > > software.
> > > >
> > > >        S
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > >
> > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > > > Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:31 AM
> > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > >
> > > > > It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then
> > another
> > > > > ~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image
> at
> > > the
> > > > > normal exposure you decide.
> > > >
> > > > Okay, that's what I understood from what Craig has said previously.
> > > >
> > > > But I think most imagers want longer exposures than 20 seconds. How would this work if a user wants to
> do
> > > 10
> > > > minute exposures?
> > > > Without an initial correction there might be enough star trailing in a 10-minute image that plate solves
> would
> > > fail
> > > > and no images
> > > > would ever get collected.
> > > >
> > > > I'm interested because APCC has a built-in declination-arc modeling feature. That is, it plate solves along
> > the
> > > > same declination at
> > > > different hour angles and produces a best-fit tracking rate model for each declination it samples. APCC
> > > > interpolates rates between
> > > > individual declination arcs to produce a really accurate tracking rate model throughout the sky and falls
> > back
> > > to
> > > > the regular
> > > > all-sky tracking rate model if the user goes out of the area of the sky where there were no declination arcs
> > to
> > > > rely on. I showed
> > > > this feature to a number of people at AIC last November.
> > > >
> > > > -Ray Gralak
> > > > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > > > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > > > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 10:17 PM
> > > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > >
> > > > > It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then
> > another
> > > > > ~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image
> at
> > > the
> > > > > normal exposure you decide. Each subsequent exposure is calculated according to the tracking
> > information
> > > > > gained from the previous image, and each one adjusts the motor speed as required to keep within the
> > limits
> > > > > that you configure. Once the initial tracking rate is set, subsequent corrections are fine adjustments
> made
> > > by
> > > > > the software. In order not to chase the seeing conditions, you can configure AT to make adjustments
> > every
> > > > nth
> > > > > image, as described in the User Guide (which is in abbreviated form at the moment, but more than
> > > adequate
> > > > > for our purposes).
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > S
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > >
> > > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak
> <groups3@...>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 11:04 PM
> > > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology
> > > incorporates
> > > > a
> > > > > > plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does
> what
> > > it's
> > > > > > supposed to do, easily.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, in a first time setup how is the tracking rate set for the very first image?
> > > > >
> > > > > -Ray Gralak
> > > > > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > > > > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > > > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > > > > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 6:27 PM
> > > > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology
> > > incorporates
> > > > a
> > > > > > plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does
> what
> > > it's
> > > > > > supposed to do, easily.
> > > > > > S
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak
> > <groups3@...>
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:15 PM
> > > > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This
> is
> > > > > > > unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Does that work if you are going to do multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think that type of application may be useful for certain types of telescopes that are hard to model,
> like
> > > > some
> > > > > of
> > > > > > the larger inexpensive truss tube scopes. If one is using a solid refractor the all-sky model that APCC
> > Pro
> > > > > > creates will give excellent results throughout the sky. I've posted images up to 30 minutes unguided
> at
> > > > > > 1.74"/pixel with round stars.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Ray Gralak
> > > > > > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > > > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > > > > > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > > > > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > > > > > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 2:15 PM
> > > > > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This
> is
> > > > > > > unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Steve
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > PS: The plate solve is very useful and helpful in getting accuracy - to the pixel.
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Donald Rudny
> > > > > > > <mkea13800@...>
> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 5:02 PM
> > > > > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks, Steven.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here's a link to the manual.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf
> <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > > > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > > > > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Don Rudny
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >        On May 28, 2020, at 10:42 AM, Steven Steven <steven447@...> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >                ATrack (Adaptive Tracking) has been around for a year doing the same thing and recently
> I
> > > > have
> > > > > > > switched to it for unguided imaging.  So if anyone wants to use ATrack while waiting for AP to add
> the
> > > > > > software
> > > > > > > to APCC then they should contact Craig Young at Crystal Lake Observatory.  The use of PinPoint is
> > > > > requierd,
> > > > > > > and that's easy.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >        From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Terri Zittritsch
> > > > > > > <theresamarie11@...>
> > > > > > >        Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:26 AM
> > > > > > >        To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > > > >        Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >        Roland, this looks exciting, any ETA for release?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >        This seems like a great feature for us mobile (non fixed installation) users.      Given how easy
> > and
> > > > fast
> > > > > > > this is, 5 minutes/hour of object tracking, will this be usable if you also have a PC connected (for
> > things
> > > > like
> > > > > > > plate solving) and do you use it with, or instead of, APCC?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >        Terri
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>





Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Ray Gralak
 

Didn't take long, he's posed and ready to strike, eh. What reply do you think would be suitable?
ROFL - Just as I thought. Don't you have anything better to do than make up things? :-)

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 7:32 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Didn't take long, he's posed and ready to strike, eh. What reply do you think would be suitable?
S

________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 10:19 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Okay, you are using MaximDL or SkyX Pro, but you still need to script operations if you want to do multiple
targets in one night.
You said it "it does what it does easily" on multiple objects in a night. If I gave you three targets, what
specifically would you
have to do personally to drive the telescope, camera, filters, focuser, etc.? That is, what software are *you*
using to handle
taking those different exposure images (training and science) at multiple locations in the sky?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 7:00 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

That's right. I'm using this thru ASCOM, you can use SkyX also, and MaximDL. You just need to set up a
'Watch Folder' for your images, ATrack and PinPoint do the rest. You can save your config profile for next
time
if you like, or not, whatever you prefer.
S

________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:52 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

It appears that ATrack doesn't actually take any images or control cameras, it just monitors a folder for new
images. Is that
correct?

So, which software package are you using to set up taking training images and your science images?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro> <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 6:31 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

I know at first glance this might seem complex but it is actually very quick and easy to do and it works very
well. I am not an expert, but with less effort than a few minutes using ATrack it gives me excellent images
with
little to no fuss, something I've been struggling with for years with good autoguiding programs, and it works
every time, very robust. This is not an autoguiding program, it requires a very slightly modified mind-set,
that's
all. I can speak from experience that it is simple and it works well and I now have no need at all to go back
to
autoguiding. Set-up is minor and the software doesn't use the PC registry, thus quick set-up and use. Read
thru
the book, takes five minutes to see how to set it up. Calibration takes less time and effort than any
autoguiding
software.



S

________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 8:28 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The
methodology
uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.


Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
software.
Technically, it is closed loop tracking (auto-guiding) since it using feedback from images to adjust tracking.

Also, it looks like there is some setup required to create a script or configure the training images for each
target. Which software
package are you using to do that?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro> <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 4:30 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

The 20 second images are "training" images used by ATrack to determine the drift - just like the
calibration images in PHD and Maxim, etc. You can use 5 second images, or as many or as long as you
want.
And you can space them out however you like. For example, you can make 10 x 5 second images with a
1
minute gap between each. Or you can make 2 x 20 second images with a 5 minute gap between each.
Ideally
though, the best is a sequence of 10 x 20 second consecutive images. The reason is because 20
seconds
tends to smooth out seeing conditions. 10 images provides enough data to derive a good average of the
drift.
The more points the better. So it is up to the user to define what is best for the ATrack training sequence.
And
after that you begin your 5 or 10 minute science images, or whatever lengths you like.


Typically, the drift rate of a telescope does not change terribly much in 10 minutes. Since ATrack
sets
the motors properly, it'll be fine. Obviously, if the seeing changes or something in the system 'jumps' the
scope
(think "PE", or a physical bump), then it won't work properly, in that case, just re-train. You can insert a
training
sequence prior to each 10 minute image if you want to ensure that it has the best rates set in the mount
before
starting.


ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The
methodology
uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.


Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
software.

S



________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:31 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then
another
~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image
at
the
normal exposure you decide.
Okay, that's what I understood from what Craig has said previously.

But I think most imagers want longer exposures than 20 seconds. How would this work if a user wants to
do
10
minute exposures?
Without an initial correction there might be enough star trailing in a 10-minute image that plate solves
would
fail
and no images
would ever get collected.

I'm interested because APCC has a built-in declination-arc modeling feature. That is, it plate solves along
the
same declination at
different hour angles and produces a best-fit tracking rate model for each declination it samples. APCC
interpolates rates between
individual declination arcs to produce a really accurate tracking rate model throughout the sky and falls
back
to
the regular
all-sky tracking rate model if the user goes out of the area of the sky where there were no declination arcs
to
rely on. I showed
this feature to a number of people at AIC last November.

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro> <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 10:17 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then
another
~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image
at
the
normal exposure you decide. Each subsequent exposure is calculated according to the tracking
information
gained from the previous image, and each one adjusts the motor speed as required to keep within the
limits
that you configure. Once the initial tracking rate is set, subsequent corrections are fine adjustments
made
by
the software. In order not to chase the seeing conditions, you can configure AT to make adjustments
every
nth
image, as described in the User Guide (which is in abbreviated form at the moment, but more than
adequate
for our purposes).


S

________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak
<groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 11:04 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology
incorporates
a
plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does
what
it's
supposed to do, easily.
So, in a first time setup how is the tracking rate set for the very first image?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro> <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 6:27 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology
incorporates
a
plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does
what
it's
supposed to do, easily.
S

________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak
<groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:15 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This
is
unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
Does that work if you are going to do multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky?

I think that type of application may be useful for certain types of telescopes that are hard to model,
like
some
of
the larger inexpensive truss tube scopes. If one is using a solid refractor the all-sky model that APCC
Pro
creates will give excellent results throughout the sky. I've posted images up to 30 minutes unguided
at
1.74"/pixel with round stars.

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro> <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 2:15 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This
is
unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!

Steve

PS: The plate solve is very useful and helpful in getting accuracy - to the pixel.
________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Donald Rudny
<mkea13800@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 5:02 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Thanks, Steven.

Here's a link to the manual.


https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>


Don Rudny



On May 28, 2020, at 10:42 AM, Steven Steven <steven447@hotmail.com> wrote:





ATrack (Adaptive Tracking) has been around for a year doing the same thing and recently
I
have
switched to it for unguided imaging. So if anyone wants to use ATrack while waiting for AP to add
the
software
to APCC then they should contact Craig Young at Crystal Lake Observatory. The use of PinPoint is
requierd,
and that's easy.



________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Terri Zittritsch
<theresamarie11@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:26 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues


Roland, this looks exciting, any ETA for release?

This seems like a great feature for us mobile (non fixed installation) users. Given how easy
and
fast
this is, 5 minutes/hour of object tracking, will this be usable if you also have a PC connected (for
things
like
plate solving) and do you use it with, or instead of, APCC?



Terri


























Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Steven
 

Didn't take long, he's posed and ready to strike, eh. What reply do you think would be suitable?
S


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 10:19 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
 
Okay, you are using MaximDL or SkyX Pro, but you still need to script operations if you want to do multiple targets in one night.
You said it "it does what it does easily" on multiple objects in a night. If I gave you three targets, what specifically would you
have to do personally to drive the telescope, camera, filters, focuser, etc.? That is, what software are *you* using to handle
taking those different exposure images (training and science) at multiple locations in the sky?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 7:00 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>
> That's right. I'm using this thru ASCOM, you can use SkyX also, and MaximDL. You just need to set up a
> 'Watch Folder' for your images, ATrack and PinPoint do the rest. You can save your config profile for next time
> if you like, or not, whatever you prefer.
> S
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:52 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>
> It appears that ATrack doesn't actually take any images or control cameras, it just monitors a folder for new
> images. Is that
> correct?
>
> So,  which software package are you using to set up taking training images and your science images?
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro <https://www.astro-
> physics.com/apcc-pro>
> Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 6:31 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> >
> > I know at first glance this might seem complex but it is actually very quick and easy to do and it works very
> > well. I am not an expert, but with less effort than a few minutes using ATrack it gives me excellent images
> with
> > little to no fuss, something I've been struggling with for years with good autoguiding programs, and it works
> > every time, very robust. This is not an autoguiding program, it requires a very slightly modified mind-set,
> that's
> > all. I can speak from experience that it is simple and it works well and I now have no need at all to go back to
> > autoguiding. Set-up is minor and the software doesn't use the PC registry, thus quick set-up and use. Read
> thru
> > the book, takes five minutes to see how to set it up. Calibration takes less time and effort than any
> autoguiding
> > software.
> >
> >
> >
> > S
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 8:28 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> >
> > >        ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
> > > necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The
> > methodology
> > > uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.
> > >
> > >
> > >        Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
> > > 1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
> > > software.
> >
> > Technically, it is closed loop tracking (auto-guiding) since it using feedback from images to adjust tracking.
> >
> > Also, it looks like there is some setup required to create a script or configure the training images for each
> > target. Which software
> > package are you using to do that?
> >
> > -Ray Gralak
> > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 4:30 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > >
> > >        The 20 second images are "training" images used by ATrack to determine the drift - just like the
> > > calibration images in PHD and Maxim, etc. You can use 5 second images, or as many or as long as you
> > want.
> > > And you can space them out however you like. For example, you can make 10 x 5 second images with a 1
> > > minute gap between each. Or you can make 2 x 20 second images with a 5 minute gap between each.
> > Ideally
> > > though, the best is a sequence of 10 x 20 second consecutive images. The reason is because 20 seconds
> > > tends to smooth out seeing conditions. 10 images provides enough data to derive a good average of the
> drift.
> > > The more points the better. So it is up to the user to define what is best for the ATrack training sequence.
> And
> > > after that you begin your 5 or 10 minute science images, or whatever lengths you like.
> > >
> > >
> > >        Typically, the drift rate of a telescope does not change terribly much in 10 minutes. Since ATrack sets
> > > the motors properly, it'll be fine. Obviously, if the seeing changes or something in the system 'jumps' the
> > scope
> > > (think "PE", or a physical bump), then it won't work properly, in that case, just re-train. You can insert a
> > training
> > > sequence prior to each 10 minute image if you want to ensure that it has the best rates set in the mount
> > before
> > > starting.
> > >
> > >
> > >        ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
> > > necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The
> > methodology
> > > uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.
> > >
> > >
> > >        Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
> > > 1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
> > > software.
> > >
> > >        S
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > > Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:31 AM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > >
> > > > It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then
> another
> > > > ~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image at
> > the
> > > > normal exposure you decide.
> > >
> > > Okay, that's what I understood from what Craig has said previously.
> > >
> > > But I think most imagers want longer exposures than 20 seconds. How would this work if a user wants to do
> > 10
> > > minute exposures?
> > > Without an initial correction there might be enough star trailing in a 10-minute image that plate solves would
> > fail
> > > and no images
> > > would ever get collected.
> > >
> > > I'm interested because APCC has a built-in declination-arc modeling feature. That is, it plate solves along
> the
> > > same declination at
> > > different hour angles and produces a best-fit tracking rate model for each declination it samples. APCC
> > > interpolates rates between
> > > individual declination arcs to produce a really accurate tracking rate model throughout the sky and falls
> back
> > to
> > > the regular
> > > all-sky tracking rate model if the user goes out of the area of the sky where there were no declination arcs
> to
> > > rely on. I showed
> > > this feature to a number of people at AIC last November.
> > >
> > > -Ray Gralak
> > > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 10:17 PM
> > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > >
> > > > It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then
> another
> > > > ~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image at
> > the
> > > > normal exposure you decide. Each subsequent exposure is calculated according to the tracking
> information
> > > > gained from the previous image, and each one adjusts the motor speed as required to keep within the
> limits
> > > > that you configure. Once the initial tracking rate is set, subsequent corrections are fine adjustments made
> > by
> > > > the software. In order not to chase the seeing conditions, you can configure AT to make adjustments
> every
> > > nth
> > > > image, as described in the User Guide (which is in abbreviated form at the moment, but more than
> > adequate
> > > > for our purposes).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > S
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > >
> > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 11:04 PM
> > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > >
> > > > > Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology
> > incorporates
> > > a
> > > > > plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does what
> > it's
> > > > > supposed to do, easily.
> > > >
> > > > So, in a first time setup how is the tracking rate set for the very first image?
> > > >
> > > > -Ray Gralak
> > > > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > > > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > > > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 6:27 PM
> > > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology
> > incorporates
> > > a
> > > > > plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does what
> > it's
> > > > > supposed to do, easily.
> > > > > S
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > >
> > > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak
> <groups3@...>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:15 PM
> > > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is
> > > > > > unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
> > > > >
> > > > > Does that work if you are going to do multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky?
> > > > >
> > > > > I think that type of application may be useful for certain types of telescopes that are hard to model, like
> > > some
> > > > of
> > > > > the larger inexpensive truss tube scopes. If one is using a solid refractor the all-sky model that APCC
> Pro
> > > > > creates will give excellent results throughout the sky. I've posted images up to 30 minutes unguided at
> > > > > 1.74"/pixel with round stars.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Ray Gralak
> > > > > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > > > > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > > > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > > > > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 2:15 PM
> > > > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is
> > > > > > unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Steve
> > > > > >
> > > > > > PS: The plate solve is very useful and helpful in getting accuracy - to the pixel.
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Donald Rudny
> > > > > > <mkea13800@...>
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 5:02 PM
> > > > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, Steven.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here's a link to the manual.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf
> <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > > > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Don Rudny
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >        On May 28, 2020, at 10:42 AM, Steven Steven <steven447@...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                ATrack (Adaptive Tracking) has been around for a year doing the same thing and recently I
> > > have
> > > > > > switched to it for unguided imaging.  So if anyone wants to use ATrack while waiting for AP to add the
> > > > > software
> > > > > > to APCC then they should contact Craig Young at Crystal Lake Observatory.  The use of PinPoint is
> > > > requierd,
> > > > > > and that's easy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > >
> > > > > >        From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Terri Zittritsch
> > > > > > <theresamarie11@...>
> > > > > >        Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:26 AM
> > > > > >        To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > > >        Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >        Roland, this looks exciting, any ETA for release?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >        This seems like a great feature for us mobile (non fixed installation) users.      Given how easy
> and
> > > fast
> > > > > > this is, 5 minutes/hour of object tracking, will this be usable if you also have a PC connected (for
> things
> > > like
> > > > > > plate solving) and do you use it with, or instead of, APCC?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >        Terri
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>





Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Ray Gralak
 

Okay, you are using MaximDL or SkyX Pro, but you still need to script operations if you want to do multiple targets in one night.
You said it "it does what it does easily" on multiple objects in a night. If I gave you three targets, what specifically would you
have to do personally to drive the telescope, camera, filters, focuser, etc.? That is, what software are *you* using to handle
taking those different exposure images (training and science) at multiple locations in the sky?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 7:00 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

That's right. I'm using this thru ASCOM, you can use SkyX also, and MaximDL. You just need to set up a
'Watch Folder' for your images, ATrack and PinPoint do the rest. You can save your config profile for next time
if you like, or not, whatever you prefer.
S

________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:52 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

It appears that ATrack doesn't actually take any images or control cameras, it just monitors a folder for new
images. Is that
correct?

So, which software package are you using to set up taking training images and your science images?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 6:31 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

I know at first glance this might seem complex but it is actually very quick and easy to do and it works very
well. I am not an expert, but with less effort than a few minutes using ATrack it gives me excellent images
with
little to no fuss, something I've been struggling with for years with good autoguiding programs, and it works
every time, very robust. This is not an autoguiding program, it requires a very slightly modified mind-set,
that's
all. I can speak from experience that it is simple and it works well and I now have no need at all to go back to
autoguiding. Set-up is minor and the software doesn't use the PC registry, thus quick set-up and use. Read
thru
the book, takes five minutes to see how to set it up. Calibration takes less time and effort than any
autoguiding
software.



S

________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 8:28 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The
methodology
uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.


Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
software.
Technically, it is closed loop tracking (auto-guiding) since it using feedback from images to adjust tracking.

Also, it looks like there is some setup required to create a script or configure the training images for each
target. Which software
package are you using to do that?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro> <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 4:30 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

The 20 second images are "training" images used by ATrack to determine the drift - just like the
calibration images in PHD and Maxim, etc. You can use 5 second images, or as many or as long as you
want.
And you can space them out however you like. For example, you can make 10 x 5 second images with a 1
minute gap between each. Or you can make 2 x 20 second images with a 5 minute gap between each.
Ideally
though, the best is a sequence of 10 x 20 second consecutive images. The reason is because 20 seconds
tends to smooth out seeing conditions. 10 images provides enough data to derive a good average of the
drift.
The more points the better. So it is up to the user to define what is best for the ATrack training sequence.
And
after that you begin your 5 or 10 minute science images, or whatever lengths you like.


Typically, the drift rate of a telescope does not change terribly much in 10 minutes. Since ATrack sets
the motors properly, it'll be fine. Obviously, if the seeing changes or something in the system 'jumps' the
scope
(think "PE", or a physical bump), then it won't work properly, in that case, just re-train. You can insert a
training
sequence prior to each 10 minute image if you want to ensure that it has the best rates set in the mount
before
starting.


ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The
methodology
uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.


Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
software.

S



________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:31 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then
another
~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image at
the
normal exposure you decide.
Okay, that's what I understood from what Craig has said previously.

But I think most imagers want longer exposures than 20 seconds. How would this work if a user wants to do
10
minute exposures?
Without an initial correction there might be enough star trailing in a 10-minute image that plate solves would
fail
and no images
would ever get collected.

I'm interested because APCC has a built-in declination-arc modeling feature. That is, it plate solves along
the
same declination at
different hour angles and produces a best-fit tracking rate model for each declination it samples. APCC
interpolates rates between
individual declination arcs to produce a really accurate tracking rate model throughout the sky and falls
back
to
the regular
all-sky tracking rate model if the user goes out of the area of the sky where there were no declination arcs
to
rely on. I showed
this feature to a number of people at AIC last November.

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro> <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 10:17 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then
another
~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image at
the
normal exposure you decide. Each subsequent exposure is calculated according to the tracking
information
gained from the previous image, and each one adjusts the motor speed as required to keep within the
limits
that you configure. Once the initial tracking rate is set, subsequent corrections are fine adjustments made
by
the software. In order not to chase the seeing conditions, you can configure AT to make adjustments
every
nth
image, as described in the User Guide (which is in abbreviated form at the moment, but more than
adequate
for our purposes).


S

________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 11:04 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology
incorporates
a
plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does what
it's
supposed to do, easily.
So, in a first time setup how is the tracking rate set for the very first image?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro> <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 6:27 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology
incorporates
a
plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does what
it's
supposed to do, easily.
S

________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak
<groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:15 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is
unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
Does that work if you are going to do multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky?

I think that type of application may be useful for certain types of telescopes that are hard to model, like
some
of
the larger inexpensive truss tube scopes. If one is using a solid refractor the all-sky model that APCC
Pro
creates will give excellent results throughout the sky. I've posted images up to 30 minutes unguided at
1.74"/pixel with round stars.

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro> <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 2:15 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is
unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!

Steve

PS: The plate solve is very useful and helpful in getting accuracy - to the pixel.
________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Donald Rudny
<mkea13800@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 5:02 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Thanks, Steven.

Here's a link to the manual.


https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>


Don Rudny



On May 28, 2020, at 10:42 AM, Steven Steven <steven447@hotmail.com> wrote:





ATrack (Adaptive Tracking) has been around for a year doing the same thing and recently I
have
switched to it for unguided imaging. So if anyone wants to use ATrack while waiting for AP to add the
software
to APCC then they should contact Craig Young at Crystal Lake Observatory. The use of PinPoint is
requierd,
and that's easy.



________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Terri Zittritsch
<theresamarie11@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:26 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues


Roland, this looks exciting, any ETA for release?

This seems like a great feature for us mobile (non fixed installation) users. Given how easy
and
fast
this is, 5 minutes/hour of object tracking, will this be usable if you also have a PC connected (for
things
like
plate solving) and do you use it with, or instead of, APCC?



Terri






















Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Steven
 

Bill, you can get in touch with Craig Young (on this forum) for details.

S


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Long <bill@...>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:41 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
 
Where does one find this software?


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Steven Steven <steven447@...>
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 6:30 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
 
I know at first glance this might seem complex but it is actually very quick and easy to do and it works very well. I am not an expert, but with less effort than a few minutes using ATrack it gives me excellent images with little to no fuss, something I've been struggling with for years with good autoguiding programs, and it works every time, very robust. This is not an autoguiding program, it requires a very slightly modified mind-set, that's all. I can speak from experience that it is simple and it works well and I now have no need at all to go back to autoguiding. Set-up is minor and the software doesn't use the PC registry, thus quick set-up and use. Read thru the book, takes five minutes to see how to set it up. Calibration takes less time and effort than any autoguiding software.

S


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 8:28 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
 
>        ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
> necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The methodology
> uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.
>
>
>        Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
> 1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
> software.

Technically, it is closed loop tracking (auto-guiding) since it using feedback from images to adjust tracking.

Also, it looks like there is some setup required to create a script or configure the training images for each target. Which software
package are you using to do that?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 4:30 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>
>        The 20 second images are "training" images used by ATrack to determine the drift - just like the
> calibration images in PHD and Maxim, etc. You can use 5 second images, or as many or as long as you want.
> And you can space them out however you like. For example, you can make 10 x 5 second images with a 1
> minute gap between each. Or you can make 2 x 20 second images with a 5 minute gap between each. Ideally
> though, the best is a sequence of 10 x 20 second consecutive images. The reason is because 20 seconds
> tends to smooth out seeing conditions. 10 images provides enough data to derive a good average of the drift.
> The more points the better. So it is up to the user to define what is best for the ATrack training sequence. And
> after that you begin your 5 or 10 minute science images, or whatever lengths you like.
>
>
>        Typically, the drift rate of a telescope does not change terribly much in 10 minutes. Since ATrack sets
> the motors properly, it'll be fine. Obviously, if the seeing changes or something in the system 'jumps' the scope
> (think "PE", or a physical bump), then it won't work properly, in that case, just re-train. You can insert a training
> sequence prior to each 10 minute image if you want to ensure that it has the best rates set in the mount before
> starting.
>
>
>        ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
> necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The methodology
> uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.
>
>
>        Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
> 1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
> software.
>
>        S
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:31 AM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>
> > It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then another
> > ~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image at the
> > normal exposure you decide.
>
> Okay, that's what I understood from what Craig has said previously.
>
> But I think most imagers want longer exposures than 20 seconds. How would this work if a user wants to do 10
> minute exposures?
> Without an initial correction there might be enough star trailing in a 10-minute image that plate solves would fail
> and no images
> would ever get collected.
>
> I'm interested because APCC has a built-in declination-arc modeling feature. That is, it plate solves along the
> same declination at
> different hour angles and produces a best-fit tracking rate model for each declination it samples. APCC
> interpolates rates between
> individual declination arcs to produce a really accurate tracking rate model throughout the sky and falls back to
> the regular
> all-sky tracking rate model if the user goes out of the area of the sky where there were no declination arcs to
> rely on. I showed
> this feature to a number of people at AIC last November.
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro <https://www.astro-
> physics.com/apcc-pro>
> Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 10:17 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> >
> > It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then another
> > ~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image at the
> > normal exposure you decide. Each subsequent exposure is calculated according to the tracking information
> > gained from the previous image, and each one adjusts the motor speed as required to keep within the limits
> > that you configure. Once the initial tracking rate is set, subsequent corrections are fine adjustments made by
> > the software. In order not to chase the seeing conditions, you can configure AT to make adjustments every
> nth
> > image, as described in the User Guide (which is in abbreviated form at the moment, but more than adequate
> > for our purposes).
> >
> >
> > S
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 11:04 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> >
> > > Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology incorporates
> a
> > > plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does what it's
> > > supposed to do, easily.
> >
> > So, in a first time setup how is the tracking rate set for the very first image?
> >
> > -Ray Gralak
> > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 6:27 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > >
> > > Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology incorporates
> a
> > > plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does what it's
> > > supposed to do, easily.
> > > S
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:15 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > >
> > > > Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is
> > > > unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
> > >
> > > Does that work if you are going to do multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky?
> > >
> > > I think that type of application may be useful for certain types of telescopes that are hard to model, like
> some
> > of
> > > the larger inexpensive truss tube scopes. If one is using a solid refractor the all-sky model that APCC Pro
> > > creates will give excellent results throughout the sky. I've posted images up to 30 minutes unguided at
> > > 1.74"/pixel with round stars.
> > >
> > > -Ray Gralak
> > > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 2:15 PM
> > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is
> > > > unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
> > > >
> > > > Steve
> > > >
> > > > PS: The plate solve is very useful and helpful in getting accuracy - to the pixel.
> > > > ________________________________
> > > >
> > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Donald Rudny
> > > > <mkea13800@...>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 5:02 PM
> > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, Steven.
> > > >
> > > > Here's a link to the manual.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf
> <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Don Rudny
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >        On May 28, 2020, at 10:42 AM, Steven Steven <steven447@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >                ATrack (Adaptive Tracking) has been around for a year doing the same thing and recently I
> have
> > > > switched to it for unguided imaging.  So if anyone wants to use ATrack while waiting for AP to add the
> > > software
> > > > to APCC then they should contact Craig Young at Crystal Lake Observatory.  The use of PinPoint is
> > requierd,
> > > > and that's easy.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > >
> > > >        From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Terri Zittritsch
> > > > <theresamarie11@...>
> > > >        Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:26 AM
> > > >        To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > >        Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >        Roland, this looks exciting, any ETA for release?
> > > >
> > > >        This seems like a great feature for us mobile (non fixed installation) users.      Given how easy and
> fast
> > > > this is, 5 minutes/hour of object tracking, will this be usable if you also have a PC connected (for things
> like
> > > > plate solving) and do you use it with, or instead of, APCC?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >        Terri
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>





Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Steven
 

That's right. I'm using this thru ASCOM, you can use SkyX also, and MaximDL. You just need to set up a 'Watch Folder' for your images, ATrack and PinPoint do the rest. You can save your config profile for next time if you like, or not, whatever you prefer.
S


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:52 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
 
It appears that ATrack doesn't actually take any images or control cameras, it just monitors a folder for new images. Is that
correct?

So,  which software package are you using to set up taking training images and your science images?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 6:31 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>
> I know at first glance this might seem complex but it is actually very quick and easy to do and it works very
> well. I am not an expert, but with less effort than a few minutes using ATrack it gives me excellent images with
> little to no fuss, something I've been struggling with for years with good autoguiding programs, and it works
> every time, very robust. This is not an autoguiding program, it requires a very slightly modified mind-set, that's
> all. I can speak from experience that it is simple and it works well and I now have no need at all to go back to
> autoguiding. Set-up is minor and the software doesn't use the PC registry, thus quick set-up and use. Read thru
> the book, takes five minutes to see how to set it up. Calibration takes less time and effort than any autoguiding
> software.
>
>
>
> S
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 8:28 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>
> >        ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
> > necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The
> methodology
> > uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.
> >
> >
> >        Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
> > 1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
> > software.
>
> Technically, it is closed loop tracking (auto-guiding) since it using feedback from images to adjust tracking.
>
> Also, it looks like there is some setup required to create a script or configure the training images for each
> target. Which software
> package are you using to do that?
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro <https://www.astro-
> physics.com/apcc-pro>
> Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 4:30 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> >
> >        The 20 second images are "training" images used by ATrack to determine the drift - just like the
> > calibration images in PHD and Maxim, etc. You can use 5 second images, or as many or as long as you
> want.
> > And you can space them out however you like. For example, you can make 10 x 5 second images with a 1
> > minute gap between each. Or you can make 2 x 20 second images with a 5 minute gap between each.
> Ideally
> > though, the best is a sequence of 10 x 20 second consecutive images. The reason is because 20 seconds
> > tends to smooth out seeing conditions. 10 images provides enough data to derive a good average of the drift.
> > The more points the better. So it is up to the user to define what is best for the ATrack training sequence. And
> > after that you begin your 5 or 10 minute science images, or whatever lengths you like.
> >
> >
> >        Typically, the drift rate of a telescope does not change terribly much in 10 minutes. Since ATrack sets
> > the motors properly, it'll be fine. Obviously, if the seeing changes or something in the system 'jumps' the
> scope
> > (think "PE", or a physical bump), then it won't work properly, in that case, just re-train. You can insert a
> training
> > sequence prior to each 10 minute image if you want to ensure that it has the best rates set in the mount
> before
> > starting.
> >
> >
> >        ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
> > necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The
> methodology
> > uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.
> >
> >
> >        Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
> > 1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
> > software.
> >
> >        S
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:31 AM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> >
> > > It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then another
> > > ~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image at
> the
> > > normal exposure you decide.
> >
> > Okay, that's what I understood from what Craig has said previously.
> >
> > But I think most imagers want longer exposures than 20 seconds. How would this work if a user wants to do
> 10
> > minute exposures?
> > Without an initial correction there might be enough star trailing in a 10-minute image that plate solves would
> fail
> > and no images
> > would ever get collected.
> >
> > I'm interested because APCC has a built-in declination-arc modeling feature. That is, it plate solves along the
> > same declination at
> > different hour angles and produces a best-fit tracking rate model for each declination it samples. APCC
> > interpolates rates between
> > individual declination arcs to produce a really accurate tracking rate model throughout the sky and falls back
> to
> > the regular
> > all-sky tracking rate model if the user goes out of the area of the sky where there were no declination arcs to
> > rely on. I showed
> > this feature to a number of people at AIC last November.
> >
> > -Ray Gralak
> > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 10:17 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > >
> > > It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then another
> > > ~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image at
> the
> > > normal exposure you decide. Each subsequent exposure is calculated according to the tracking information
> > > gained from the previous image, and each one adjusts the motor speed as required to keep within the limits
> > > that you configure. Once the initial tracking rate is set, subsequent corrections are fine adjustments made
> by
> > > the software. In order not to chase the seeing conditions, you can configure AT to make adjustments every
> > nth
> > > image, as described in the User Guide (which is in abbreviated form at the moment, but more than
> adequate
> > > for our purposes).
> > >
> > >
> > > S
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 11:04 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > >
> > > > Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology
> incorporates
> > a
> > > > plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does what
> it's
> > > > supposed to do, easily.
> > >
> > > So, in a first time setup how is the tracking rate set for the very first image?
> > >
> > > -Ray Gralak
> > > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 6:27 PM
> > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > >
> > > > Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology
> incorporates
> > a
> > > > plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does what
> it's
> > > > supposed to do, easily.
> > > > S
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > >
> > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:15 PM
> > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is
> > > > > unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
> > > >
> > > > Does that work if you are going to do multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky?
> > > >
> > > > I think that type of application may be useful for certain types of telescopes that are hard to model, like
> > some
> > > of
> > > > the larger inexpensive truss tube scopes. If one is using a solid refractor the all-sky model that APCC Pro
> > > > creates will give excellent results throughout the sky. I've posted images up to 30 minutes unguided at
> > > > 1.74"/pixel with round stars.
> > > >
> > > > -Ray Gralak
> > > > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > > > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > > > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 2:15 PM
> > > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is
> > > > > unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve
> > > > >
> > > > > PS: The plate solve is very useful and helpful in getting accuracy - to the pixel.
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > >
> > > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Donald Rudny
> > > > > <mkea13800@...>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 5:02 PM
> > > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks, Steven.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's a link to the manual.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf
> <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Don Rudny
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >        On May 28, 2020, at 10:42 AM, Steven Steven <steven447@...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >                ATrack (Adaptive Tracking) has been around for a year doing the same thing and recently I
> > have
> > > > > switched to it for unguided imaging.  So if anyone wants to use ATrack while waiting for AP to add the
> > > > software
> > > > > to APCC then they should contact Craig Young at Crystal Lake Observatory.  The use of PinPoint is
> > > requierd,
> > > > > and that's easy.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > >
> > > > >        From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Terri Zittritsch
> > > > > <theresamarie11@...>
> > > > >        Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:26 AM
> > > > >        To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > >        Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >        Roland, this looks exciting, any ETA for release?
> > > > >
> > > > >        This seems like a great feature for us mobile (non fixed installation) users.      Given how easy and
> > fast
> > > > > this is, 5 minutes/hour of object tracking, will this be usable if you also have a PC connected (for things
> > like
> > > > > plate solving) and do you use it with, or instead of, APCC?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >        Terri
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>





Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Roland Christen
 

Ok, I see how that works now. It's different yet similar to what Ray and I are doing.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Steven <steven447@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, May 29, 2020 6:29 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

The 20 second images are "training" images used by ATrack to determine the drift - just like the calibration images in PHD and Maxim, etc. You can use 5 second images, or as many or as long as you want. And you can space them out however you like. For example, you can make 10 x 5 second images with a 1 minute gap between each. Or you can make 2 x 20 second images with a 5 minute gap between each. Ideally though, the best is a sequence of 10 x 20 second consecutive images. The reason is because 20 seconds tends to smooth out seeing conditions. 10 images provides enough data to derive a good average of the drift. The more points the better. So it is up to the user to define what is best for the ATrack training sequence. And after that you begin your 5 or 10 minute science images, or whatever lengths you like.

Typically, the drift rate of a telescope does not change terribly much in 10 minutes. Since ATrack sets the motors properly, it'll be fine. Obviously, if the seeing changes or something in the system 'jumps' the scope (think "PE", or a physical bump), then it won't work properly, in that case, just re-train. You can insert a training sequence prior to each 10 minute image if you want to ensure that it has the best rates set in the mount before starting.

ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The methodology uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.

Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using 1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this software. 

S



From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:31 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
 
> It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then another
> ~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image at the
> normal exposure you decide.

Okay, that's what I understood from what Craig has said previously.

But I think most imagers want longer exposures than 20 seconds. How would this work if a user wants to do 10 minute exposures?
Without an initial correction there might be enough star trailing in a 10-minute image that plate solves would fail and no images
would ever get collected.

I'm interested because APCC has a built-in declination-arc modeling feature. That is, it plate solves along the same declination at
different hour angles and produces a best-fit tracking rate model for each declination it samples. APCC interpolates rates between
individual declination arcs to produce a really accurate tracking rate model throughout the sky and falls back to the regular
all-sky tracking rate model if the user goes out of the area of the sky where there were no declination arcs to rely on. I showed
this feature to a number of people at AIC last November.

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 10:17 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>
> It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then another
> ~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image at the
> normal exposure you decide. Each subsequent exposure is calculated according to the tracking information
> gained from the previous image, and each one adjusts the motor speed as required to keep within the limits
> that you configure. Once the initial tracking rate is set, subsequent corrections are fine adjustments made by
> the software. In order not to chase the seeing conditions, you can configure AT to make adjustments every nth
> image, as described in the User Guide (which is in abbreviated form at the moment, but more than adequate
> for our purposes).
>
>
> S
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 11:04 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>
> > Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology incorporates a
> > plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does what it's
> > supposed to do, easily.
>
> So, in a first time setup how is the tracking rate set for the very first image?
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro <https://www.astro-
> physics.com/apcc-pro>
> Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 6:27 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> >
> > Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology incorporates a
> > plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does what it's
> > supposed to do, easily.
> > S
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:15 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> >
> > > Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is
> > > unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
> >
> > Does that work if you are going to do multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky?
> >
> > I think that type of application may be useful for certain types of telescopes that are hard to model, like some
> of
> > the larger inexpensive truss tube scopes. If one is using a solid refractor the all-sky model that APCC Pro
> > creates will give excellent results throughout the sky. I've posted images up to 30 minutes unguided at
> > 1.74"/pixel with round stars.
> >
> > -Ray Gralak
> > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 2:15 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > >
> > > Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is
> > > unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
> > >
> > > Steve
> > >
> > > PS: The plate solve is very useful and helpful in getting accuracy - to the pixel.
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Donald Rudny
> > > <mkea13800@...>
> > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 5:02 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > >
> > > Thanks, Steven.
> > >
> > > Here's a link to the manual.
> > >
> > >
> > > https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf
> <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > >
> > >
> > > Don Rudny
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >        On May 28, 2020, at 10:42 AM, Steven Steven <steven447@...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >                ATrack (Adaptive Tracking) has been around for a year doing the same thing and recently I have
> > > switched to it for unguided imaging.  So if anyone wants to use ATrack while waiting for AP to add the
> > software
> > > to APCC then they should contact Craig Young at Crystal Lake Observatory.  The use of PinPoint is
> requierd,
> > > and that's easy.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > >        From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Terri Zittritsch
> > > <theresamarie11@...>
> > >        Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:26 AM
> > >        To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > >        Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > >
> > >
> > >        Roland, this looks exciting, any ETA for release?
> > >
> > >        This seems like a great feature for us mobile (non fixed installation) users.      Given how easy and fast
> > > this is, 5 minutes/hour of object tracking, will this be usable if you also have a PC connected (for things like
> > > plate solving) and do you use it with, or instead of, APCC?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >        Terri
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>





Re: USB / Serial and WIFI connection #Mach2GTO

Roland Christen
 

Excellent!

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Dominique Durand via groups.io <dom33.durand@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Fri, May 29, 2020 5:21 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] USB / Serial and WIFI connection #Mach2GTO

On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 11:54 PM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> wrote:
Looking forward to your images.
But there they are ...
May 24 : M106
https://astrob.in/full/447k54/B/

May 25 : Chaine de Markarian
https://astrob.in/full/fw1er8/B/

May 26 : M63
https://astrob.in/full/rof6xq/B/

May 27 : M100
https://astrob.in/full/2eue3o/B/

May 28 : M109
https://astrob.in/full/db89ar/B/

Dominique


Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Ray Gralak
 

It appears that ATrack doesn't actually take any images or control cameras, it just monitors a folder for new images. Is that
correct?

So, which software package are you using to set up taking training images and your science images?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 6:31 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

I know at first glance this might seem complex but it is actually very quick and easy to do and it works very
well. I am not an expert, but with less effort than a few minutes using ATrack it gives me excellent images with
little to no fuss, something I've been struggling with for years with good autoguiding programs, and it works
every time, very robust. This is not an autoguiding program, it requires a very slightly modified mind-set, that's
all. I can speak from experience that it is simple and it works well and I now have no need at all to go back to
autoguiding. Set-up is minor and the software doesn't use the PC registry, thus quick set-up and use. Read thru
the book, takes five minutes to see how to set it up. Calibration takes less time and effort than any autoguiding
software.



S

________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 8:28 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The
methodology
uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.


Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
software.
Technically, it is closed loop tracking (auto-guiding) since it using feedback from images to adjust tracking.

Also, it looks like there is some setup required to create a script or configure the training images for each
target. Which software
package are you using to do that?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 4:30 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

The 20 second images are "training" images used by ATrack to determine the drift - just like the
calibration images in PHD and Maxim, etc. You can use 5 second images, or as many or as long as you
want.
And you can space them out however you like. For example, you can make 10 x 5 second images with a 1
minute gap between each. Or you can make 2 x 20 second images with a 5 minute gap between each.
Ideally
though, the best is a sequence of 10 x 20 second consecutive images. The reason is because 20 seconds
tends to smooth out seeing conditions. 10 images provides enough data to derive a good average of the drift.
The more points the better. So it is up to the user to define what is best for the ATrack training sequence. And
after that you begin your 5 or 10 minute science images, or whatever lengths you like.


Typically, the drift rate of a telescope does not change terribly much in 10 minutes. Since ATrack sets
the motors properly, it'll be fine. Obviously, if the seeing changes or something in the system 'jumps' the
scope
(think "PE", or a physical bump), then it won't work properly, in that case, just re-train. You can insert a
training
sequence prior to each 10 minute image if you want to ensure that it has the best rates set in the mount
before
starting.


ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The
methodology
uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.


Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
software.

S



________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:31 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then another
~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image at
the
normal exposure you decide.
Okay, that's what I understood from what Craig has said previously.

But I think most imagers want longer exposures than 20 seconds. How would this work if a user wants to do
10
minute exposures?
Without an initial correction there might be enough star trailing in a 10-minute image that plate solves would
fail
and no images
would ever get collected.

I'm interested because APCC has a built-in declination-arc modeling feature. That is, it plate solves along the
same declination at
different hour angles and produces a best-fit tracking rate model for each declination it samples. APCC
interpolates rates between
individual declination arcs to produce a really accurate tracking rate model throughout the sky and falls back
to
the regular
all-sky tracking rate model if the user goes out of the area of the sky where there were no declination arcs to
rely on. I showed
this feature to a number of people at AIC last November.

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro> <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 10:17 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then another
~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image at
the
normal exposure you decide. Each subsequent exposure is calculated according to the tracking information
gained from the previous image, and each one adjusts the motor speed as required to keep within the limits
that you configure. Once the initial tracking rate is set, subsequent corrections are fine adjustments made
by
the software. In order not to chase the seeing conditions, you can configure AT to make adjustments every
nth
image, as described in the User Guide (which is in abbreviated form at the moment, but more than
adequate
for our purposes).


S

________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 11:04 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology
incorporates
a
plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does what
it's
supposed to do, easily.
So, in a first time setup how is the tracking rate set for the very first image?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro> <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 6:27 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology
incorporates
a
plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does what
it's
supposed to do, easily.
S

________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:15 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is
unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
Does that work if you are going to do multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky?

I think that type of application may be useful for certain types of telescopes that are hard to model, like
some
of
the larger inexpensive truss tube scopes. If one is using a solid refractor the all-sky model that APCC Pro
creates will give excellent results throughout the sky. I've posted images up to 30 minutes unguided at
1.74"/pixel with round stars.

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro> <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 2:15 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is
unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!

Steve

PS: The plate solve is very useful and helpful in getting accuracy - to the pixel.
________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Donald Rudny
<mkea13800@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 5:02 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Thanks, Steven.

Here's a link to the manual.


https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>


Don Rudny



On May 28, 2020, at 10:42 AM, Steven Steven <steven447@hotmail.com> wrote:





ATrack (Adaptive Tracking) has been around for a year doing the same thing and recently I
have
switched to it for unguided imaging. So if anyone wants to use ATrack while waiting for AP to add the
software
to APCC then they should contact Craig Young at Crystal Lake Observatory. The use of PinPoint is
requierd,
and that's easy.



________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Terri Zittritsch
<theresamarie11@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:26 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues


Roland, this looks exciting, any ETA for release?

This seems like a great feature for us mobile (non fixed installation) users. Given how easy and
fast
this is, 5 minutes/hour of object tracking, will this be usable if you also have a PC connected (for things
like
plate solving) and do you use it with, or instead of, APCC?



Terri


















Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Bill Long
 

Where does one find this software?


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Steven Steven <steven447@...>
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 6:30 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
 
I know at first glance this might seem complex but it is actually very quick and easy to do and it works very well. I am not an expert, but with less effort than a few minutes using ATrack it gives me excellent images with little to no fuss, something I've been struggling with for years with good autoguiding programs, and it works every time, very robust. This is not an autoguiding program, it requires a very slightly modified mind-set, that's all. I can speak from experience that it is simple and it works well and I now have no need at all to go back to autoguiding. Set-up is minor and the software doesn't use the PC registry, thus quick set-up and use. Read thru the book, takes five minutes to see how to set it up. Calibration takes less time and effort than any autoguiding software.

S


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 8:28 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
 
>        ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
> necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The methodology
> uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.
>
>
>        Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
> 1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
> software.

Technically, it is closed loop tracking (auto-guiding) since it using feedback from images to adjust tracking.

Also, it looks like there is some setup required to create a script or configure the training images for each target. Which software
package are you using to do that?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 4:30 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>
>        The 20 second images are "training" images used by ATrack to determine the drift - just like the
> calibration images in PHD and Maxim, etc. You can use 5 second images, or as many or as long as you want.
> And you can space them out however you like. For example, you can make 10 x 5 second images with a 1
> minute gap between each. Or you can make 2 x 20 second images with a 5 minute gap between each. Ideally
> though, the best is a sequence of 10 x 20 second consecutive images. The reason is because 20 seconds
> tends to smooth out seeing conditions. 10 images provides enough data to derive a good average of the drift.
> The more points the better. So it is up to the user to define what is best for the ATrack training sequence. And
> after that you begin your 5 or 10 minute science images, or whatever lengths you like.
>
>
>        Typically, the drift rate of a telescope does not change terribly much in 10 minutes. Since ATrack sets
> the motors properly, it'll be fine. Obviously, if the seeing changes or something in the system 'jumps' the scope
> (think "PE", or a physical bump), then it won't work properly, in that case, just re-train. You can insert a training
> sequence prior to each 10 minute image if you want to ensure that it has the best rates set in the mount before
> starting.
>
>
>        ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
> necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The methodology
> uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.
>
>
>        Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
> 1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
> software.
>
>        S
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:31 AM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>
> > It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then another
> > ~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image at the
> > normal exposure you decide.
>
> Okay, that's what I understood from what Craig has said previously.
>
> But I think most imagers want longer exposures than 20 seconds. How would this work if a user wants to do 10
> minute exposures?
> Without an initial correction there might be enough star trailing in a 10-minute image that plate solves would fail
> and no images
> would ever get collected.
>
> I'm interested because APCC has a built-in declination-arc modeling feature. That is, it plate solves along the
> same declination at
> different hour angles and produces a best-fit tracking rate model for each declination it samples. APCC
> interpolates rates between
> individual declination arcs to produce a really accurate tracking rate model throughout the sky and falls back to
> the regular
> all-sky tracking rate model if the user goes out of the area of the sky where there were no declination arcs to
> rely on. I showed
> this feature to a number of people at AIC last November.
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro <https://www.astro-
> physics.com/apcc-pro>
> Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 10:17 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> >
> > It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then another
> > ~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image at the
> > normal exposure you decide. Each subsequent exposure is calculated according to the tracking information
> > gained from the previous image, and each one adjusts the motor speed as required to keep within the limits
> > that you configure. Once the initial tracking rate is set, subsequent corrections are fine adjustments made by
> > the software. In order not to chase the seeing conditions, you can configure AT to make adjustments every
> nth
> > image, as described in the User Guide (which is in abbreviated form at the moment, but more than adequate
> > for our purposes).
> >
> >
> > S
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 11:04 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> >
> > > Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology incorporates
> a
> > > plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does what it's
> > > supposed to do, easily.
> >
> > So, in a first time setup how is the tracking rate set for the very first image?
> >
> > -Ray Gralak
> > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 6:27 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > >
> > > Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology incorporates
> a
> > > plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does what it's
> > > supposed to do, easily.
> > > S
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:15 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > >
> > > > Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is
> > > > unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
> > >
> > > Does that work if you are going to do multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky?
> > >
> > > I think that type of application may be useful for certain types of telescopes that are hard to model, like
> some
> > of
> > > the larger inexpensive truss tube scopes. If one is using a solid refractor the all-sky model that APCC Pro
> > > creates will give excellent results throughout the sky. I've posted images up to 30 minutes unguided at
> > > 1.74"/pixel with round stars.
> > >
> > > -Ray Gralak
> > > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 2:15 PM
> > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is
> > > > unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
> > > >
> > > > Steve
> > > >
> > > > PS: The plate solve is very useful and helpful in getting accuracy - to the pixel.
> > > > ________________________________
> > > >
> > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Donald Rudny
> > > > <mkea13800@...>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 5:02 PM
> > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, Steven.
> > > >
> > > > Here's a link to the manual.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf
> <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Don Rudny
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >        On May 28, 2020, at 10:42 AM, Steven Steven <steven447@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >                ATrack (Adaptive Tracking) has been around for a year doing the same thing and recently I
> have
> > > > switched to it for unguided imaging.  So if anyone wants to use ATrack while waiting for AP to add the
> > > software
> > > > to APCC then they should contact Craig Young at Crystal Lake Observatory.  The use of PinPoint is
> > requierd,
> > > > and that's easy.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > >
> > > >        From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Terri Zittritsch
> > > > <theresamarie11@...>
> > > >        Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:26 AM
> > > >        To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > >        Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >        Roland, this looks exciting, any ETA for release?
> > > >
> > > >        This seems like a great feature for us mobile (non fixed installation) users.      Given how easy and
> fast
> > > > this is, 5 minutes/hour of object tracking, will this be usable if you also have a PC connected (for things
> like
> > > > plate solving) and do you use it with, or instead of, APCC?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >        Terri
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>





Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Steven
 

I know at first glance this might seem complex but it is actually very quick and easy to do and it works very well. I am not an expert, but with less effort than a few minutes using ATrack it gives me excellent images with little to no fuss, something I've been struggling with for years with good autoguiding programs, and it works every time, very robust. This is not an autoguiding program, it requires a very slightly modified mind-set, that's all. I can speak from experience that it is simple and it works well and I now have no need at all to go back to autoguiding. Set-up is minor and the software doesn't use the PC registry, thus quick set-up and use. Read thru the book, takes five minutes to see how to set it up. Calibration takes less time and effort than any autoguiding software.

S


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 8:28 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
 
>        ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
> necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The methodology
> uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.
>
>
>        Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
> 1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
> software.

Technically, it is closed loop tracking (auto-guiding) since it using feedback from images to adjust tracking.

Also, it looks like there is some setup required to create a script or configure the training images for each target. Which software
package are you using to do that?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 4:30 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>
>        The 20 second images are "training" images used by ATrack to determine the drift - just like the
> calibration images in PHD and Maxim, etc. You can use 5 second images, or as many or as long as you want.
> And you can space them out however you like. For example, you can make 10 x 5 second images with a 1
> minute gap between each. Or you can make 2 x 20 second images with a 5 minute gap between each. Ideally
> though, the best is a sequence of 10 x 20 second consecutive images. The reason is because 20 seconds
> tends to smooth out seeing conditions. 10 images provides enough data to derive a good average of the drift.
> The more points the better. So it is up to the user to define what is best for the ATrack training sequence. And
> after that you begin your 5 or 10 minute science images, or whatever lengths you like.
>
>
>        Typically, the drift rate of a telescope does not change terribly much in 10 minutes. Since ATrack sets
> the motors properly, it'll be fine. Obviously, if the seeing changes or something in the system 'jumps' the scope
> (think "PE", or a physical bump), then it won't work properly, in that case, just re-train. You can insert a training
> sequence prior to each 10 minute image if you want to ensure that it has the best rates set in the mount before
> starting.
>
>
>        ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
> necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The methodology
> uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.
>
>
>        Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
> 1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
> software.
>
>        S
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:31 AM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>
> > It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then another
> > ~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image at the
> > normal exposure you decide.
>
> Okay, that's what I understood from what Craig has said previously.
>
> But I think most imagers want longer exposures than 20 seconds. How would this work if a user wants to do 10
> minute exposures?
> Without an initial correction there might be enough star trailing in a 10-minute image that plate solves would fail
> and no images
> would ever get collected.
>
> I'm interested because APCC has a built-in declination-arc modeling feature. That is, it plate solves along the
> same declination at
> different hour angles and produces a best-fit tracking rate model for each declination it samples. APCC
> interpolates rates between
> individual declination arcs to produce a really accurate tracking rate model throughout the sky and falls back to
> the regular
> all-sky tracking rate model if the user goes out of the area of the sky where there were no declination arcs to
> rely on. I showed
> this feature to a number of people at AIC last November.
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro <https://www.astro-
> physics.com/apcc-pro>
> Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 10:17 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> >
> > It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then another
> > ~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image at the
> > normal exposure you decide. Each subsequent exposure is calculated according to the tracking information
> > gained from the previous image, and each one adjusts the motor speed as required to keep within the limits
> > that you configure. Once the initial tracking rate is set, subsequent corrections are fine adjustments made by
> > the software. In order not to chase the seeing conditions, you can configure AT to make adjustments every
> nth
> > image, as described in the User Guide (which is in abbreviated form at the moment, but more than adequate
> > for our purposes).
> >
> >
> > S
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 11:04 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> >
> > > Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology incorporates
> a
> > > plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does what it's
> > > supposed to do, easily.
> >
> > So, in a first time setup how is the tracking rate set for the very first image?
> >
> > -Ray Gralak
> > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 6:27 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > >
> > > Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology incorporates
> a
> > > plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does what it's
> > > supposed to do, easily.
> > > S
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:15 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > >
> > > > Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is
> > > > unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
> > >
> > > Does that work if you are going to do multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky?
> > >
> > > I think that type of application may be useful for certain types of telescopes that are hard to model, like
> some
> > of
> > > the larger inexpensive truss tube scopes. If one is using a solid refractor the all-sky model that APCC Pro
> > > creates will give excellent results throughout the sky. I've posted images up to 30 minutes unguided at
> > > 1.74"/pixel with round stars.
> > >
> > > -Ray Gralak
> > > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 2:15 PM
> > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is
> > > > unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
> > > >
> > > > Steve
> > > >
> > > > PS: The plate solve is very useful and helpful in getting accuracy - to the pixel.
> > > > ________________________________
> > > >
> > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Donald Rudny
> > > > <mkea13800@...>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 5:02 PM
> > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, Steven.
> > > >
> > > > Here's a link to the manual.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf
> <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Don Rudny
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >        On May 28, 2020, at 10:42 AM, Steven Steven <steven447@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >                ATrack (Adaptive Tracking) has been around for a year doing the same thing and recently I
> have
> > > > switched to it for unguided imaging.  So if anyone wants to use ATrack while waiting for AP to add the
> > > software
> > > > to APCC then they should contact Craig Young at Crystal Lake Observatory.  The use of PinPoint is
> > requierd,
> > > > and that's easy.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > >
> > > >        From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Terri Zittritsch
> > > > <theresamarie11@...>
> > > >        Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:26 AM
> > > >        To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > >        Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >        Roland, this looks exciting, any ETA for release?
> > > >
> > > >        This seems like a great feature for us mobile (non fixed installation) users.      Given how easy and
> fast
> > > > this is, 5 minutes/hour of object tracking, will this be usable if you also have a PC connected (for things
> like
> > > > plate solving) and do you use it with, or instead of, APCC?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >        Terri
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>





Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Ray Gralak
 

ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The methodology
uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.


Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
software.
Technically, it is closed loop tracking (auto-guiding) since it using feedback from images to adjust tracking.

Also, it looks like there is some setup required to create a script or configure the training images for each target. Which software
package are you using to do that?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 4:30 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

The 20 second images are "training" images used by ATrack to determine the drift - just like the
calibration images in PHD and Maxim, etc. You can use 5 second images, or as many or as long as you want.
And you can space them out however you like. For example, you can make 10 x 5 second images with a 1
minute gap between each. Or you can make 2 x 20 second images with a 5 minute gap between each. Ideally
though, the best is a sequence of 10 x 20 second consecutive images. The reason is because 20 seconds
tends to smooth out seeing conditions. 10 images provides enough data to derive a good average of the drift.
The more points the better. So it is up to the user to define what is best for the ATrack training sequence. And
after that you begin your 5 or 10 minute science images, or whatever lengths you like.


Typically, the drift rate of a telescope does not change terribly much in 10 minutes. Since ATrack sets
the motors properly, it'll be fine. Obviously, if the seeing changes or something in the system 'jumps' the scope
(think "PE", or a physical bump), then it won't work properly, in that case, just re-train. You can insert a training
sequence prior to each 10 minute image if you want to ensure that it has the best rates set in the mount before
starting.


ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The methodology
uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.


Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
software.

S



________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:31 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then another
~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image at the
normal exposure you decide.
Okay, that's what I understood from what Craig has said previously.

But I think most imagers want longer exposures than 20 seconds. How would this work if a user wants to do 10
minute exposures?
Without an initial correction there might be enough star trailing in a 10-minute image that plate solves would fail
and no images
would ever get collected.

I'm interested because APCC has a built-in declination-arc modeling feature. That is, it plate solves along the
same declination at
different hour angles and produces a best-fit tracking rate model for each declination it samples. APCC
interpolates rates between
individual declination arcs to produce a really accurate tracking rate model throughout the sky and falls back to
the regular
all-sky tracking rate model if the user goes out of the area of the sky where there were no declination arcs to
rely on. I showed
this feature to a number of people at AIC last November.

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 10:17 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then another
~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image at the
normal exposure you decide. Each subsequent exposure is calculated according to the tracking information
gained from the previous image, and each one adjusts the motor speed as required to keep within the limits
that you configure. Once the initial tracking rate is set, subsequent corrections are fine adjustments made by
the software. In order not to chase the seeing conditions, you can configure AT to make adjustments every
nth
image, as described in the User Guide (which is in abbreviated form at the moment, but more than adequate
for our purposes).


S

________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 11:04 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology incorporates
a
plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does what it's
supposed to do, easily.
So, in a first time setup how is the tracking rate set for the very first image?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro> <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 6:27 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology incorporates
a
plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does what it's
supposed to do, easily.
S

________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:15 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is
unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
Does that work if you are going to do multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky?

I think that type of application may be useful for certain types of telescopes that are hard to model, like
some
of
the larger inexpensive truss tube scopes. If one is using a solid refractor the all-sky model that APCC Pro
creates will give excellent results throughout the sky. I've posted images up to 30 minutes unguided at
1.74"/pixel with round stars.

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro> <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 2:15 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is
unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!

Steve

PS: The plate solve is very useful and helpful in getting accuracy - to the pixel.
________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Donald Rudny
<mkea13800@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 5:02 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Thanks, Steven.

Here's a link to the manual.


https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>


Don Rudny



On May 28, 2020, at 10:42 AM, Steven Steven <steven447@hotmail.com> wrote:





ATrack (Adaptive Tracking) has been around for a year doing the same thing and recently I
have
switched to it for unguided imaging. So if anyone wants to use ATrack while waiting for AP to add the
software
to APCC then they should contact Craig Young at Crystal Lake Observatory. The use of PinPoint is
requierd,
and that's easy.



________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Terri Zittritsch
<theresamarie11@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:26 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues


Roland, this looks exciting, any ETA for release?

This seems like a great feature for us mobile (non fixed installation) users. Given how easy and
fast
this is, 5 minutes/hour of object tracking, will this be usable if you also have a PC connected (for things
like
plate solving) and do you use it with, or instead of, APCC?



Terri














Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Bill Long
 

I have a tandem system I am putting together with 2 x A-P 130GTX scopes. Just got the second GTX and got the Robin Casady side-by-side plate. Balancing them is not something to take lightly, but if you do it right they can deliver excellent results. The ALT/AZ adjustment plate is key if you want to dual image.


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Jerome Allison <jallison@...>
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 5:22 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
 
Wow, so many replies!  Thanks

Ray, good point - didn't think of that.

Roland, on my EdgeHD 11 the shift isn't that bad, it's still there.  I really wanted to avoid adding an external focuser, since I wasn't sure how that would affect the optics - especially with a .7x reducer.  I guess if I eliminate the OAG that I'd previously planned on using there would still be plenty of backfocus.

Bryan, it's an EdgeHD 11 with a motor focuser I built myself.  It drives the existing focuser shaft much like other commercial focusers, except I have the motor off to the side along the tube so it's out of the way.

I know A-P tends to discourage the use of tandem configurations, but I could possibly mount my 100mm F5.8 refractor alongside and use that for mapping?  The one I have seems pretty rigid.   Or, just stick with my smaller refractors for now - I'm still working up to longer focal lengths.

Jerome


Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

 

Wow, so many replies!  Thanks

Ray, good point - didn't think of that.

Roland, on my EdgeHD 11 the shift isn't that bad, it's still there.  I really wanted to avoid adding an external focuser, since I wasn't sure how that would affect the optics - especially with a .7x reducer.  I guess if I eliminate the OAG that I'd previously planned on using there would still be plenty of backfocus.

Bryan, it's an EdgeHD 11 with a motor focuser I built myself.  It drives the existing focuser shaft much like other commercial focusers, except I have the motor off to the side along the tube so it's out of the way.

I know A-P tends to discourage the use of tandem configurations, but I could possibly mount my 100mm F5.8 refractor alongside and use that for mapping?  The one I have seems pretty rigid.   Or, just stick with my smaller refractors for now - I'm still working up to longer focal lengths.

Jerome


Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Steven
 

The 20 second images are "training" images used by ATrack to determine the drift - just like the calibration images in PHD and Maxim, etc. You can use 5 second images, or as many or as long as you want. And you can space them out however you like. For example, you can make 10 x 5 second images with a 1 minute gap between each. Or you can make 2 x 20 second images with a 5 minute gap between each. Ideally though, the best is a sequence of 10 x 20 second consecutive images. The reason is because 20 seconds tends to smooth out seeing conditions. 10 images provides enough data to derive a good average of the drift. The more points the better. So it is up to the user to define what is best for the ATrack training sequence. And after that you begin your 5 or 10 minute science images, or whatever lengths you like.

Typically, the drift rate of a telescope does not change terribly much in 10 minutes. Since ATrack sets the motors properly, it'll be fine. Obviously, if the seeing changes or something in the system 'jumps' the scope (think "PE", or a physical bump), then it won't work properly, in that case, just re-train. You can insert a training sequence prior to each 10 minute image if you want to ensure that it has the best rates set in the mount before starting.

ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The methodology uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.

Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using 1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this software. 

S



From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:31 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
 
> It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then another
> ~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image at the
> normal exposure you decide.

Okay, that's what I understood from what Craig has said previously.

But I think most imagers want longer exposures than 20 seconds. How would this work if a user wants to do 10 minute exposures?
Without an initial correction there might be enough star trailing in a 10-minute image that plate solves would fail and no images
would ever get collected.

I'm interested because APCC has a built-in declination-arc modeling feature. That is, it plate solves along the same declination at
different hour angles and produces a best-fit tracking rate model for each declination it samples. APCC interpolates rates between
individual declination arcs to produce a really accurate tracking rate model throughout the sky and falls back to the regular
all-sky tracking rate model if the user goes out of the area of the sky where there were no declination arcs to rely on. I showed
this feature to a number of people at AIC last November.

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 10:17 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>
> It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then another
> ~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image at the
> normal exposure you decide. Each subsequent exposure is calculated according to the tracking information
> gained from the previous image, and each one adjusts the motor speed as required to keep within the limits
> that you configure. Once the initial tracking rate is set, subsequent corrections are fine adjustments made by
> the software. In order not to chase the seeing conditions, you can configure AT to make adjustments every nth
> image, as described in the User Guide (which is in abbreviated form at the moment, but more than adequate
> for our purposes).
>
>
> S
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 11:04 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>
> > Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology incorporates a
> > plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does what it's
> > supposed to do, easily.
>
> So, in a first time setup how is the tracking rate set for the very first image?
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro <https://www.astro-
> physics.com/apcc-pro>
> Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 6:27 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> >
> > Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology incorporates a
> > plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does what it's
> > supposed to do, easily.
> > S
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:15 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> >
> > > Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is
> > > unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
> >
> > Does that work if you are going to do multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky?
> >
> > I think that type of application may be useful for certain types of telescopes that are hard to model, like some
> of
> > the larger inexpensive truss tube scopes. If one is using a solid refractor the all-sky model that APCC Pro
> > creates will give excellent results throughout the sky. I've posted images up to 30 minutes unguided at
> > 1.74"/pixel with round stars.
> >
> > -Ray Gralak
> > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 2:15 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > >
> > > Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is
> > > unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
> > >
> > > Steve
> > >
> > > PS: The plate solve is very useful and helpful in getting accuracy - to the pixel.
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Donald Rudny
> > > <mkea13800@...>
> > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 5:02 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > >
> > > Thanks, Steven.
> > >
> > > Here's a link to the manual.
> > >
> > >
> > > https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf
> <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > >
> > >
> > > Don Rudny
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >        On May 28, 2020, at 10:42 AM, Steven Steven <steven447@...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >                ATrack (Adaptive Tracking) has been around for a year doing the same thing and recently I have
> > > switched to it for unguided imaging.  So if anyone wants to use ATrack while waiting for AP to add the
> > software
> > > to APCC then they should contact Craig Young at Crystal Lake Observatory.  The use of PinPoint is
> requierd,
> > > and that's easy.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > >        From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Terri Zittritsch
> > > <theresamarie11@...>
> > >        Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:26 AM
> > >        To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > >        Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > >
> > >
> > >        Roland, this looks exciting, any ETA for release?
> > >
> > >        This seems like a great feature for us mobile (non fixed installation) users.      Given how easy and fast
> > > this is, 5 minutes/hour of object tracking, will this be usable if you also have a PC connected (for things like
> > > plate solving) and do you use it with, or instead of, APCC?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >        Terri
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>




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