Date   

Re: What's the effect of imaging through jet stream?

Robert Berta
 

I think you mentioned that you were setup on a sidewalk.....if so were you shooting over pavement, or perhaps over roofs of houses? Both of those conditions will destroy your image quality.


Re: What's the effect of imaging through jet stream?

Mike Shade
 

I have seen about every geometric shape possible with out of focus stars during a FocusMax run with the 17", worse when the seeing is poor.  According to my seeing monitor, I tend to run around 2" on average, with some periods of significantly better, 1.5" or less and sometimes 3" plus, on the same night.  It can be reasonable right after sunset for about 30 minutes, and can be reasonable before dawn-sometimes.  I have done what is possible around and in the observatory to minimize heat effects (I am in SE AZ), but I can't control the upper atmosphere.  

 

Mike J. Shade

Mike J. Shade Photography:

mshadephotography.com

 

In War: Resolution

In Defeat: Defiance

In Victory: Magnanimity

In Peace: Goodwill

Sir Winston Churchill

Already, in the gathering dusk, a few of the stars are turning on their lights.

Vega, the brightest one, is now dropping towards the west.  Can it be half

a year since I watched her April rising in the east?  Low in the southwest

Antares blinks a sad farwell to fall...

Leslie Peltier, Starlight Nights

 

International Dark Sky Association: www.darksky.org

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Glenn
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2020 6:59 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] What's the effect of imaging through jet stream?

 

cytan,

I generally have poor local seeing, but I am amazed at the variation that is possible. On good nights, guiding with my Mach1 (last generation) is around 0.3-0.4 arc seconds and the resulting HFD of the subframes is in the 2-3 range. On bad nights, particularly when the jet stream is a factor, guiding is 1.5 arc seconds or worse and the HFD is much higher. On the worst night in memory, my HFD was 10+! I thought there was something wrong with my optics—the stars looked like giant snowballs and refocusing did not improve them. But a couple of nights later, guiding and image quality had returned to normal. So in my experience the jet stream can significantly degrade both guiding and image quality. 

Regards,

Glenn


Re: What's the effect of imaging through jet stream?

Cheng-Yang Tan
 

Hi Glenn,
  Good to know that my earlier problem was also observed by you. Unfortunately, l am not completely convinced because my setup is torn down and reinstalled each evening. Although I always set up close to the same spot on the sidewalk, and I try to be consistent setting up, I really cannot guarantee that each install, PA is identical.
   Everything went smoothly last night though despite the wind. Who knows what the real cause is if it’s not the jet stream the previous night.

On Sunday, May 31, 2020, 8:58 AM, Glenn <public@...> wrote:

cytan,

I generally have poor local seeing, but I am amazed at the variation that is possible. On good nights, guiding with my Mach1 (last generation) is around 0.3-0.4 arc seconds and the resulting HFD of the subframes is in the 2-3 range. On bad nights, particularly when the jet stream is a factor, guiding is 1.5 arc seconds or worse and the HFD is much higher. On the worst night in memory, my HFD was 10+! I thought there was something wrong with my optics—the stars looked like giant snowballs and refocusing did not improve them. But a couple of nights later, guiding and image quality had returned to normal. So in my experience the jet stream can significantly degrade both guiding and image quality. 

Regards,

Glenn


Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Dean Jacobsen
 

I have been using the keypad for the entire 17 years that I have been using AP mounts... except for now while I am waiting for the new version. It is handy and it always works.  If I am imaging an object with a Messier, NGC or IC designation, then I will just usually enter it in the keypad directly.  If I am going to a Barnard, LDN, VdB catalog object then I have to use TheSkyX. 

On occasion when I do put an eyepiece in the telescope it is fun to go though some of the provided "tours". 

The new abilities for the CP4 and CP5 controller will make it even more useful to me.

--
Dean Jacobsen
http://astrophoto.net/wp/ 
Image Gallery - http://astrophoto.net/wp/image-gallery/
Astrobin - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/ 


Re: What's the effect of imaging through jet stream?

Glenn
 

cytan,

I generally have poor local seeing, but I am amazed at the variation that is possible. On good nights, guiding with my Mach1 (last generation) is around 0.3-0.4 arc seconds and the resulting HFD of the subframes is in the 2-3 range. On bad nights, particularly when the jet stream is a factor, guiding is 1.5 arc seconds or worse and the HFD is much higher. On the worst night in memory, my HFD was 10+! I thought there was something wrong with my optics—the stars looked like giant snowballs and refocusing did not improve them. But a couple of nights later, guiding and image quality had returned to normal. So in my experience the jet stream can significantly degrade both guiding and image quality. 

Regards,

Glenn


Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

DFisch
 

Roland has just described my experience with my AP keypad vs previous out of box experience. AP keypad is fairly bulletproof Tom. Ps I look forward to next version

On Sat, May 30, 2020 at 21:28 uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

I guess a question I have for AP is why the keypad is so expensive? 
It's an industrial device which is made for outdoor use. It won't crap out at -40F. It has nice tyactile keypad. It has a good display which also won't die at -40F. It's very rugged. The display always tells you how to do stuff so you don't have to remember in the dead of the night when your brain is not working.

Frankly, I don't like most of the cheap hand controllers that come with imported mounts. I bought a 12" GoTo Dob for use by our guests at our Hawaii house and it came with a hand controller that has oodles of features. And is very non-intuitive. I spent a very frustrating 4 hours with it one night and wanted to chuck it into the nearest sewer. I managed to send it to Mars at one point and at 150x the image was quite nice (plus the diffraction spikes of course). But the planet kept jerking back and forth which was somewhat annoying. I finally pulled the power cord and just moved it by hand the way God and Dobson had intended to use this kind of scope in the first place.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Donald Rudny <mkea13800@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 7:18 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Hi Ray,

Not sure of the exact price of the base AP1100 when I got mine, but AP does include  standard APCC with the purchase of one now.  They include the pro version with the AE 1100.

To answer the last question, I can only speak to my understanding of the AP system.  That is that the CP4 is the brain that controls the mount.  That’s where the money is.  There only needs to be an input device that communicates with the CP4.  AP has given several options.  As Roland has said many times, all you need is the keypad.  I like that, but in my opinion it is way overpriced for just giving signals to the brain.  It has a great catalogue of objects that frankly is available in an App like SkySafari for $39.95.  APCC gives more limit inputs and maybe a few more than the keypad (not sure about that), but it has no catalogue of objects.  Also, there is no Mac version.  I find that SkySafari does everything I need, except for multiple park positions.  I certainly hope that the mounts ability to slew and act safely are built into the CP4.  The operator only need to initialize properly.  If that’s not true, there should be big warnings about that.  I have been using mine for a couple of years now just initializing without setting any kind of limits on anything, and have never had a problem.  It has performed flawlessly.

Just my opinion, but the mount should come with both the keypad and APCC standard software.

You did bring up SB, and their prices didn’t seem that out of line with AP and they include a full package of SkyX and a handset.  Not trying to debate which is better.  There’s plenty of that on CN.  I like my AP1100, but I must admit that I did consider purchasing SkyX after using APCC.  More expense I would need to explain to the CFO.

I guess a question I have for AP is why the keypad is so expensive?  I guess another is can I trade my APCC in to get credit toward a keypad so I can use Roland’s new drift correction system with the keypad?  I honestly would consider that.

Thanks,

Don

Don Rudny


> On May 30, 2020, at 12:01 PM, Ray Gralak <groups3@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Don,
>
>> I was a little surprise to have to shell out what I did for APCC after spending over eight large
>> on the mount.
>
> A-P could have increased the price of their mounts and included software with every mount. That's what, for example, Software Bisque does with their mounts. And you have to pay an annual subscription fee if you want to keep getting new features.
>
> But A-P allows each person to decide if they want to purchase the software or not. The same thing with the keypad. You could have been "forced" to pay for the keypad if you wanted your 1100 but you got to save money by not having to. Doesn't this make sense?
>
>> on the mount.  One would think that software to run it would have been included.
>> I love the mount, but sorry to say, was disappointed in the control software.
>
> And I am glad you love your mount! I love mine too!
>
> But, APCC wasn't intended to be control software. In fact, one goal was that it be "transparent" to third party control software. APCC Standard adds safety features and new functionality. APCC Pro adds sophisticated pointing and tracking rate correction.
>
> Third party applications don't even know, nor have to know, about APCC's safety features, or that APCC Pro is applying pointing and tracking rate correction. APCC just automatically works and is transparent to every software application using it. I think that people underestimate the value of this.
>
> That said, what do you feel should have been included in terms of control software with the mount?
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Donald Rudny
>> Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 1:19 PM
>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>>
>> Hi Ray,
>>
>> I think any imaging program would work.  From my understanding the images just need to be saved in a folder
>> that is watched by Atrack.  It coordinates Pinpoint to plate solve the images and then adjusts the tracking rate
>> accordingly.  I haven’t used it yet, but have been reviewing the user guide.  I assume that any image file format
>> could be used similar to astrometry.net.  I use Starlight Live, and it can save each exposure to a selected folder
>> as a fits file.  I think that will work.  Unfortunately it doesn’t solve my Mac issue.  Starlight Live does have a
>> native Windows version, too, but I prefer Mac.
>>
>> I have the APCC standard version.  I do have a Windows 10 machine strictly used for Astro stuff.  I use it to
>> initialize my mount and park it for my home observatory.  After initializing, I connect to my iPad and use
>> SkySafari the rest of the night.  My home observatory uses a P3 park position, so that’s why I use APCC.  I
>> understand SkySafari was suppose to add other park positions, but I don’t think that happened yet.  They only
>> use P4 which works well in the field.  There I don’t even bring my PC with Windows.
>>
>> I’ve been a Mac guy since 1984.  I cringe every time I even hear the word Windows.  I see all the issues
>> everyone has with it.  The idea of having APCC on a Mac or iPad sounds appealing.  I just hope I don’t have to
>> pay for it again.  I was a little surprise to have to shell out what I did for APCC after spending over eight large
>> on the mount.  One would think that software to run it would have been included.  I love the mount, but sorry to
>> say, was disappointed in the control software.
>>
>> Don
>>
>> Don Rudny
>>
>>
>>>> On May 30, 2020, at 7:57 AM, Ray Gralak <groups3@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Donald,
>>>
>>>>  I’m not trying to say that any system is better than any other.  I’m just trying to understand what is
>>>> available and what options users may have.  Cost is important as well.  I believe Atrack is free, but Pinpoint
>>>> runs about $150.  They have a 60 day trial period.  Some users out there with CP3’s might be interested in
>> this,
>>>> too.
>>>
>>> Wouldn't you also need an imaging program, like MaximDL Pro or SkyXPro?
>>>
>>>> I did purchase APCC, but I find it lacking for the price.  No
>>>> catalogue of objects.  No Mac version.  Not very intuitive.  About the only thing I use it for is to initialize the
>>>> mount at my home observatory.  Then I switch to my iPad and SkySafari for control.
>>>
>>> I take it you have APCC Standard? If you are not using Windows you are missing out then on some safety
>> and convenience features, like auto-park, and meridian and horizon limits.
>>>
>>> So, what if there was an iPad version of APCC with a full planetarium view? One of the plans for the next full
>> version of APCC is to make it cross platform. I've already started designing it and IOS is one of the possible
>> target platforms.
>>>
>>> -Ray Gralak
>>> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
>>> Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
>>> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Donald Rudny
>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 10:04 AM
>>>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>>>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>>>>
>>>> Rolando,
>>>>
>>>> If you’re interested, here’s my mobile setup.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Don Rudny
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  On May 30, 2020, at 6:59 AM, Donald Rudny via groups.io <mkea13800=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Hi Rolando,
>>>>
>>>>  Here is the link to the Pinpoint site.
>>>>
>>>>  http://pinpoint.dc3.com/
>>>>
>>>>  There is a section on accuracy that suggests that it is very accurate.
>>>>
>>>>  I’m not trying to say that any system is better than any other.  I’m just trying to understand what is
>>>> available and what options users may have.  Cost is important as well.  I believe Atrack is free, but Pinpoint
>>>> runs about $150.  They have a 60 day trial period.  Some users out there with CP3’s might be interested in
>> this,
>>>> too.
>>>>
>>>>  I like your keypad method for what I do, which is usually a portable setup with my AP1100 and C11 Edge
>>>> at  f/6 or f/2 with Hyperstar.  Sometimes I will do f/10.  It might not sound very portable, but I put everything
>> in
>>>> the back of my pickup and drive up to Maunakea to set up off the back of the truck.  It takes about 20
>> minutes.
>>>> It gets pretty cold, so we sit in the pickup and view the object images on an extended monitor.  I run the
>> cables
>>>> through the rear window.  When the VIS was open, we did something similar and put on shows for the
>> visitors
>>>> with the equipment there.  It was a big hit.  I use a Mac, so I was able to download our captured images to
>> the
>>>> visitors iPhones.  Some people stayed the whole night just to get all of them.  That’s when I first
>> experienced
>>>> your excellent mounts and keypad.  They had an AP1100 set up with an 11” RASA.  I didn’t purchase a
>> keypad
>>>> with my AP1100 because of the expense.  I decided to go with my iPad and SkySafari.  I have Luminos too.
>>>> Both work very well and are very inexpensive.  I did purchase APCC, but I find it lacking for the price.  No
>>>> catalogue of objects.  No Mac version.  Not very intuitive.  About the only thing I use it for is to initialize the
>>>> mount at my home observatory.  Then I switch to my iPad and SkySafari for control.
>>>>
>>>>  I really don’t like to set up the auto guiding stuff, so your keypad system interests me.  I think it would
>>>> work best for what I need, but I would need to center the star by eye on my Mac computer screen with
>>>> crosshairs.  How accurate will that be?  It will probably be more valuable for me running at f/6 or f/10 with
>> the
>>>> C11 than at f/2.  At f/2, I can already get a couple of minutes unguided just with using the RAPAS for PA.
>> It’s
>>>> f/6 and especially f/10 that drift some.
>>>>
>>>>  I do have the CP4, but I would need to invest another $900 for a keypad, so you see my dilemma.  I’m
>>>> willing to invest, but I need to know that it will really work for me.
>>>>
>>>>  Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>  Don
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Don Rudny
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      On May 29, 2020, at 7:38 PM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io
>>>> <chris1011=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          How accurate is centering a star by eye.
>>>>
>>>>      I actually do it automatically in MaximDL. I switch the main camera over to guide mode, let the
>>>> guider program pick whatever star it wants in the image and let it autoguide. At the end of 3  - 5 minutes I
>> press
>>>> the Enter button on the keypad and let the program advance to the next calibration point. I don't do the
>>>> centering manually, i let MaximDL do that. When I have gathered enough points I switch the camera back
>> over
>>>> to imaging and take my exposures.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      I can see where Atrack can adjust the guide rates after each image, however that means that
>>>> there is drift in the image that is being measured. I'm not 100% convinced that plate solve can determine
>> the
>>>> position to an accuracy level of sub-arc seconds, so i did not pursue this method. Besides, if you're going to
>>>> use fancy software for this, then I would simply use APCC Pro and make an all-sky model, and be done with
>> it.
>>>> My program is for portable setups where the user has a mount, scope and keypad, maybe a laptop and
>> maybe
>>>> just a digital camera. No fancy software, just the basics to have some imaging fun.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      Rolando
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      -----Original Message-----
>>>>      From: Donald Rudny <mkea13800@...>
>>>>      To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>>>>      Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 12:12 am
>>>>      Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      Rolando,
>>>>
>>>>      I haven’t used Atrack, but have been reviewing the manual and I believe the program
>>>> continuously adjusts the drift rate as you capture images.  They are saved in a file that is watched by the
>>>> program and plate solved through Pinpoint.  I believe there is also a modeling routine that I assume can be
>>>> saved as long as the setup remains the same.  As I say, I’m not 100% sure of this, but it looks like it’s worth
>>>> taking a look at.
>>>>
>>>>      One question I have on the AP keypad system is accuracy.  How accurate is centering a star by
>>>> eye.  I would think that a longer time between inputs would be necessary to improve accuracy.  If I have a
>> fairly
>>>> decent PA, I would think I might need a 10-15 minute drift measurement.  A longer focal length would also
>> help.
>>>>
>>>>      Don
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      Don Rudny
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          On May 29, 2020, at 6:15 PM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io
>>>> <chris1011=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          Basically you get one data point in about 200 seconds (3 - 4 minutes) which sets the drift
>>>> rate at that point int he sky. So that will work for a while, maybe 1/2 hour to an hour, after which the drift will
>>>> have changed. So then you take another 3-4 minute run to establish a new drift rate. You do that every hour
>> or
>>>> so along the path that the object takes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          That's exactly what I'm doing also. 3 - 5 minute drift measurement which is good for an
>>>> hour. However, if I take just 3 drift measurements along the path, spread out over a 5 - 6 hour period, the
>> CP5
>>>> will then compute a continuously variable tracking rate for all points in between for the entire 6 hour period. I
>>>> can do this measurement all at once before the sun goes down using 3 widely spaced stars of Mag4 or
>> brighter
>>>> and an H-a filter.  Takes about 15 minutes total. This path is then computed and ready to go when twilight
>>>> ends. I can even do another object path at a different Dec, download it and be ready to image two objects.
>> In
>>>> fact, if the two Dec lines are widely spaced, I can image all objects in between also unguided because the
>>>> model computes the variable tracking rates for the entire sky area as well as +- 10 degrees outside those
>> two
>>>> Dec lines.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          Below see the tracking graphs for the imaging that I am doing tonight. They show how the
>>>> tracking rates vary over approx 45 minutes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          Rolando
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          <dummyfile.0.part>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          -----Original Message-----
>>>>          From: Steven Steven <steven447@...>
>>>>          To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
>>>>          Sent: Fri, May 29, 2020 9:52 pm
>>>>          Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          That comment has to do with a long-time on-line chess game, not for you/forum. Sorry, it's
>>>> wrong context, I've a busy day on email today.
>>>>
>>>>          In reply to your own query, you set up each object separately. I use the Autosave feature
>>>> on Maxim and when finished with one object, move to it, train ATrack, an make the second one. It's that
>> simple.
>>>> The User Guide is a good start and will answer your queries without reference to chess moves. 😉
>>>>
>>>>          S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>


--
TJF MOBILE


Re: What's the effect of imaging through jet stream?

Cheng-Yang Tan
 

Well, I set up my scope tonight and all subframes were good. The rms error was a little bigger 0.6 to 0.7 arcsec rms compared to 0.5 arcsec rms, but I think this is because it was windier tonight than last.  Who knows what went wrong last night. I was imaging M101 again and so the scope was pointing at about the same altitude as last night. That's the problem with portable setups, each one is just slightly different ... 

cytan

On Saturday, May 30, 2020, 05:24:47 PM CDT, Cheng-Yang Tan via groups.io <cytan299@...> wrote:


Thanks! Hopefully I’ll never see this problem again after I install the OAG. So, Rolando, the jet stream has never been a problem for you when you image?

cytan 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

On Saturday, May 30, 2020, 5:14 PM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...> wrote:

My first and only guess would be that the main scope is flexing with respect to the guidescope. Especially if the guidescope is mounted on the rings of the main scope. That's a guarantee of flexure and poor images. Jet stream - not an issue.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Cheng-Yang Tan via groups.io <cytan299@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 2:41 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] What's the effect of imaging through jet stream?

Hi Rolando,
   I used a guide scope that is 4.59 arcsec/pixel (focal length 168 mm). Scope is a FSQ106. I plan to image again tonight. Again, the jet stream seems to be quite bad: 45 m/s. So if there's anything else to check, I'm open to suggestions.

cytan

P.S. I will be upgrading to OAG next week after my SBIG Starchaser SC-2 arrives. This is in preparation for an Adaptive Optics AO-8A in the future.


On Saturday, May 30, 2020, 02:32:25 PM CDT, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...> wrote:


Are you using an off-axis guider or separate guide scope? What is the main scope you are imaging with?

Rolando





-----Original Message-----
From: Cheng-Yang Tan via groups.io <cytan299@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 12:53 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] What's the effect of imaging through jet stream?

Hi guys,
   Hopefully my question is not off topic. But here goes:

   I imaged M101 last night (alt at 76 deg and close to the meridian) with my Mach1GTO and I had to throw away 1/2 my subframes. I examined the bad subframes and there's no consistent direction for the eggy stars from each subframe. Some subframe's eggy stars were in RA direction, some were in DEC direction and some were angled w.r.t. RA and DEC. I looked at the meteoblue seeing map (attached) and it says that the jet stream was at around 31 m/s last night. PHD2 guide graph was about 0.5 arcsec rms error for the entire night which wasn't too bad for the entire session because my image scale is 2.1 arcsec/pixel.

Is the above something that I'd expect imaging through the jet stream? Or I should be looking for something else to blame like flexure?

Thanks (before I start tearing everything apart :) )

cytan


Re: Stall Issue

Bill Long
 

Sleep well.

Looks like this black lead is loose.




From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 10:02 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue
 
The two motor boxes are identical. I'll leave it to you to figure out how to check where the problem is. I have to go sleep now.

Roland



-----Original Message-----
From: uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Sun, May 31, 2020 12:01 am
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue

You have a loose Dec connection. Check inside the RA axis.

Roland



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Long <bill@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 11:51 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue

I grabbed the previous Y Cable I used before the encoder system replacement and plugged both in, RA will move, DEC wont. RA will eventually stop and throw a motor stall though. 


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 9:41 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue
 
Plug the RA cable into the Dec and see if the motor will move. If it does not, then you have a motor problem. If it does move, then you have a cable problem. It won't be mechanical by what you have described.

Roland



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Long <bill@...>
To: uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>; main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 11:39 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue

Wiring is good to go. Spur gear moves fine by hand.


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 9:36 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue
 
Check your wiring. Your motor might not be connected to the CP.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Long <bill@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 11:19 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Stall Issue

Hello all,

Having an issue with a motor stall after re-greasing my 1100AE mount. The stall seems to be related to movements in DEC. When I press those buttons on the keypad, the light on the back turns amber without any movement occurring. Using the spring-loaded worm system works fine, I can release and re-engage with no issues and the worm spins freely with no unexpected contact. I have no strange play in DEC, it is nice and solid as expected. 

I do have to be clear about one thing I did do mistakenly. There is a large hex bolt above the backstop/switch that I loosened when the instructions said the "center screw" not seeing the one on the inside of the motor box. I tightened it back up before proceeding any further once I found the right screw -- I am guessing this is related. 

Any steps I can take? I went through the motor removal and reinstallation process and that has not aided in solving the problem. 

Thanks,
Bill


Re: Stall Issue

Roland Christen
 

The two motor boxes are identical. I'll leave it to you to figure out how to check where the problem is. I have to go sleep now.

Roland



-----Original Message-----
From: uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Sun, May 31, 2020 12:01 am
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue

You have a loose Dec connection. Check inside the RA axis.

Roland



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Long <bill@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 11:51 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue

I grabbed the previous Y Cable I used before the encoder system replacement and plugged both in, RA will move, DEC wont. RA will eventually stop and throw a motor stall though. 


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 9:41 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue
 
Plug the RA cable into the Dec and see if the motor will move. If it does not, then you have a motor problem. If it does move, then you have a cable problem. It won't be mechanical by what you have described.

Roland



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Long <bill@...>
To: uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>; main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 11:39 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue

Wiring is good to go. Spur gear moves fine by hand.


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 9:36 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue
 
Check your wiring. Your motor might not be connected to the CP.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Long <bill@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 11:19 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Stall Issue

Hello all,

Having an issue with a motor stall after re-greasing my 1100AE mount. The stall seems to be related to movements in DEC. When I press those buttons on the keypad, the light on the back turns amber without any movement occurring. Using the spring-loaded worm system works fine, I can release and re-engage with no issues and the worm spins freely with no unexpected contact. I have no strange play in DEC, it is nice and solid as expected. 

I do have to be clear about one thing I did do mistakenly. There is a large hex bolt above the backstop/switch that I loosened when the instructions said the "center screw" not seeing the one on the inside of the motor box. I tightened it back up before proceeding any further once I found the right screw -- I am guessing this is related. 

Any steps I can take? I went through the motor removal and reinstallation process and that has not aided in solving the problem. 

Thanks,
Bill


Re: Stall Issue

Roland Christen
 

You have a loose Dec connection. Check inside the RA axis.

Roland



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Long <bill@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 11:51 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue

I grabbed the previous Y Cable I used before the encoder system replacement and plugged both in, RA will move, DEC wont. RA will eventually stop and throw a motor stall though. 


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 9:41 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue
 
Plug the RA cable into the Dec and see if the motor will move. If it does not, then you have a motor problem. If it does move, then you have a cable problem. It won't be mechanical by what you have described.

Roland



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Long <bill@...>
To: uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>; main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 11:39 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue

Wiring is good to go. Spur gear moves fine by hand.


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 9:36 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue
 
Check your wiring. Your motor might not be connected to the CP.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Long <bill@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 11:19 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Stall Issue

Hello all,

Having an issue with a motor stall after re-greasing my 1100AE mount. The stall seems to be related to movements in DEC. When I press those buttons on the keypad, the light on the back turns amber without any movement occurring. Using the spring-loaded worm system works fine, I can release and re-engage with no issues and the worm spins freely with no unexpected contact. I have no strange play in DEC, it is nice and solid as expected. 

I do have to be clear about one thing I did do mistakenly. There is a large hex bolt above the backstop/switch that I loosened when the instructions said the "center screw" not seeing the one on the inside of the motor box. I tightened it back up before proceeding any further once I found the right screw -- I am guessing this is related. 

Any steps I can take? I went through the motor removal and reinstallation process and that has not aided in solving the problem. 

Thanks,
Bill


Re: Stall Issue

Roland Christen
 

Just tighten it back up. Snug, not super tight. It's the pivot point. Has zero to do with your motor stall.

You know that you can run the motor with the gears out of mesh. That way you know you are not overly tight.

Roland



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Long <bill@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 11:43 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue

Here is that bolt I mentioned...




From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Long <bill@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 9:39 PM
To: uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>; main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue
 
Wiring is good to go. Spur gear moves fine by hand.


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 9:36 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue
 
Check your wiring. Your motor might not be connected to the CP.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Long <bill@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 11:19 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Stall Issue

Hello all,

Having an issue with a motor stall after re-greasing my 1100AE mount. The stall seems to be related to movements in DEC. When I press those buttons on the keypad, the light on the back turns amber without any movement occurring. Using the spring-loaded worm system works fine, I can release and re-engage with no issues and the worm spins freely with no unexpected contact. I have no strange play in DEC, it is nice and solid as expected. 

I do have to be clear about one thing I did do mistakenly. There is a large hex bolt above the backstop/switch that I loosened when the instructions said the "center screw" not seeing the one on the inside of the motor box. I tightened it back up before proceeding any further once I found the right screw -- I am guessing this is related. 

Any steps I can take? I went through the motor removal and reinstallation process and that has not aided in solving the problem. 

Thanks,
Bill


Re: Stall Issue

Bill Long
 

I grabbed the previous Y Cable I used before the encoder system replacement and plugged both in, RA will move, DEC wont. RA will eventually stop and throw a motor stall though. 


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 9:41 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue
 
Plug the RA cable into the Dec and see if the motor will move. If it does not, then you have a motor problem. If it does move, then you have a cable problem. It won't be mechanical by what you have described.

Roland



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Long <bill@...>
To: uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>; main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 11:39 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue

Wiring is good to go. Spur gear moves fine by hand.


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 9:36 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue
 
Check your wiring. Your motor might not be connected to the CP.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Long <bill@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 11:19 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Stall Issue

Hello all,

Having an issue with a motor stall after re-greasing my 1100AE mount. The stall seems to be related to movements in DEC. When I press those buttons on the keypad, the light on the back turns amber without any movement occurring. Using the spring-loaded worm system works fine, I can release and re-engage with no issues and the worm spins freely with no unexpected contact. I have no strange play in DEC, it is nice and solid as expected. 

I do have to be clear about one thing I did do mistakenly. There is a large hex bolt above the backstop/switch that I loosened when the instructions said the "center screw" not seeing the one on the inside of the motor box. I tightened it back up before proceeding any further once I found the right screw -- I am guessing this is related. 

Any steps I can take? I went through the motor removal and reinstallation process and that has not aided in solving the problem. 

Thanks,
Bill


Re: Stall Issue

Bill Long
 

Here is that bolt I mentioned...




From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Long <bill@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 9:39 PM
To: uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>; main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue
 
Wiring is good to go. Spur gear moves fine by hand.


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 9:36 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue
 
Check your wiring. Your motor might not be connected to the CP.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Long <bill@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 11:19 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Stall Issue

Hello all,

Having an issue with a motor stall after re-greasing my 1100AE mount. The stall seems to be related to movements in DEC. When I press those buttons on the keypad, the light on the back turns amber without any movement occurring. Using the spring-loaded worm system works fine, I can release and re-engage with no issues and the worm spins freely with no unexpected contact. I have no strange play in DEC, it is nice and solid as expected. 

I do have to be clear about one thing I did do mistakenly. There is a large hex bolt above the backstop/switch that I loosened when the instructions said the "center screw" not seeing the one on the inside of the motor box. I tightened it back up before proceeding any further once I found the right screw -- I am guessing this is related. 

Any steps I can take? I went through the motor removal and reinstallation process and that has not aided in solving the problem. 

Thanks,
Bill


Re: Stall Issue

Roland Christen
 

Plug the RA cable into the Dec and see if the motor will move. If it does not, then you have a motor problem. If it does move, then you have a cable problem. It won't be mechanical by what you have described.

Roland



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Long <bill@...>
To: uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>; main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 11:39 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue

Wiring is good to go. Spur gear moves fine by hand.


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 9:36 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue
 
Check your wiring. Your motor might not be connected to the CP.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Long <bill@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 11:19 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Stall Issue

Hello all,

Having an issue with a motor stall after re-greasing my 1100AE mount. The stall seems to be related to movements in DEC. When I press those buttons on the keypad, the light on the back turns amber without any movement occurring. Using the spring-loaded worm system works fine, I can release and re-engage with no issues and the worm spins freely with no unexpected contact. I have no strange play in DEC, it is nice and solid as expected. 

I do have to be clear about one thing I did do mistakenly. There is a large hex bolt above the backstop/switch that I loosened when the instructions said the "center screw" not seeing the one on the inside of the motor box. I tightened it back up before proceeding any further once I found the right screw -- I am guessing this is related. 

Any steps I can take? I went through the motor removal and reinstallation process and that has not aided in solving the problem. 

Thanks,
Bill


Re: Stall Issue

Bill Long
 

Wiring is good to go. Spur gear moves fine by hand.


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 9:36 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Stall Issue
 
Check your wiring. Your motor might not be connected to the CP.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Long <bill@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 11:19 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Stall Issue

Hello all,

Having an issue with a motor stall after re-greasing my 1100AE mount. The stall seems to be related to movements in DEC. When I press those buttons on the keypad, the light on the back turns amber without any movement occurring. Using the spring-loaded worm system works fine, I can release and re-engage with no issues and the worm spins freely with no unexpected contact. I have no strange play in DEC, it is nice and solid as expected. 

I do have to be clear about one thing I did do mistakenly. There is a large hex bolt above the backstop/switch that I loosened when the instructions said the "center screw" not seeing the one on the inside of the motor box. I tightened it back up before proceeding any further once I found the right screw -- I am guessing this is related. 

Any steps I can take? I went through the motor removal and reinstallation process and that has not aided in solving the problem. 

Thanks,
Bill


Re: Stall Issue

Roland Christen
 

Check your wiring. Your motor might not be connected to the CP.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Long <bill@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 11:19 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Stall Issue

Hello all,

Having an issue with a motor stall after re-greasing my 1100AE mount. The stall seems to be related to movements in DEC. When I press those buttons on the keypad, the light on the back turns amber without any movement occurring. Using the spring-loaded worm system works fine, I can release and re-engage with no issues and the worm spins freely with no unexpected contact. I have no strange play in DEC, it is nice and solid as expected. 

I do have to be clear about one thing I did do mistakenly. There is a large hex bolt above the backstop/switch that I loosened when the instructions said the "center screw" not seeing the one on the inside of the motor box. I tightened it back up before proceeding any further once I found the right screw -- I am guessing this is related. 

Any steps I can take? I went through the motor removal and reinstallation process and that has not aided in solving the problem. 

Thanks,
Bill


Stall Issue

Bill Long
 

Hello all,

Having an issue with a motor stall after re-greasing my 1100AE mount. The stall seems to be related to movements in DEC. When I press those buttons on the keypad, the light on the back turns amber without any movement occurring. Using the spring-loaded worm system works fine, I can release and re-engage with no issues and the worm spins freely with no unexpected contact. I have no strange play in DEC, it is nice and solid as expected. 

I do have to be clear about one thing I did do mistakenly. There is a large hex bolt above the backstop/switch that I loosened when the instructions said the "center screw" not seeing the one on the inside of the motor box. I tightened it back up before proceeding any further once I found the right screw -- I am guessing this is related. 

Any steps I can take? I went through the motor removal and reinstallation process and that has not aided in solving the problem. 

Thanks,
Bill


Re: Any advantage to a cp4 and apcc pro for a 600e?

Roland Christen
 

With an FSQ you can definitely get good unguided performance. 30 minutes is a bit long however.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Blahovici <tom.va2fsq@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 8:47 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Any advantage to a cp4 and apcc pro for a 600e?

Ok it's an old mount but it does a great job with my Tak fsq106 and stl11000.
Pempro tells me that the RMS error is 1.7 arcsec.
When guiding using TheSkyX and the guider chip in the stl11000 I am always below .5arcsec RMS. The aggressiveness is set at 1 with a delay of 3 to 5 seconds between exposures.
So my cp2 is getting a little old, and I have had to resolder the power connector so I'm thinking about a cp3 or cp4. Will I get possible unguided performance of 30 minutes going the whole route with apcc? Or is that not possible?
I am polar aligned better than .5 minutes of the pole.  Oh and I only have a view from the east to South to west. Nothing north or that.
Thanks, Tom


Any advantage to a cp4 and apcc pro for a 600e?

Tom Blahovici
 

Ok it's an old mount but it does a great job with my Tak fsq106 and stl11000.
Pempro tells me that the RMS error is 1.7 arcsec.
When guiding using TheSkyX and the guider chip in the stl11000 I am always below .5arcsec RMS. The aggressiveness is set at 1 with a delay of 3 to 5 seconds between exposures.
So my cp2 is getting a little old, and I have had to resolder the power connector so I'm thinking about a cp3 or cp4. Will I get possible unguided performance of 30 minutes going the whole route with apcc? Or is that not possible?
I am polar aligned better than .5 minutes of the pole.  Oh and I only have a view from the east to South to west. Nothing north or that.
Thanks, Tom


Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Roland Christen
 


I guess a question I have for AP is why the keypad is so expensive? 
It's an industrial device which is made for outdoor use. It won't crap out at -40F. It has nice tyactile keypad. It has a good display which also won't die at -40F. It's very rugged. The display always tells you how to do stuff so you don't have to remember in the dead of the night when your brain is not working.

Frankly, I don't like most of the cheap hand controllers that come with imported mounts. I bought a 12" GoTo Dob for use by our guests at our Hawaii house and it came with a hand controller that has oodles of features. And is very non-intuitive. I spent a very frustrating 4 hours with it one night and wanted to chuck it into the nearest sewer. I managed to send it to Mars at one point and at 150x the image was quite nice (plus the diffraction spikes of course). But the planet kept jerking back and forth which was somewhat annoying. I finally pulled the power cord and just moved it by hand the way God and Dobson had intended to use this kind of scope in the first place.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Donald Rudny <mkea13800@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 7:18 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Hi Ray,

Not sure of the exact price of the base AP1100 when I got mine, but AP does include  standard APCC with the purchase of one now.  They include the pro version with the AE 1100.

To answer the last question, I can only speak to my understanding of the AP system.  That is that the CP4 is the brain that controls the mount.  That’s where the money is.  There only needs to be an input device that communicates with the CP4.  AP has given several options.  As Roland has said many times, all you need is the keypad.  I like that, but in my opinion it is way overpriced for just giving signals to the brain.  It has a great catalogue of objects that frankly is available in an App like SkySafari for $39.95.  APCC gives more limit inputs and maybe a few more than the keypad (not sure about that), but it has no catalogue of objects.  Also, there is no Mac version.  I find that SkySafari does everything I need, except for multiple park positions.  I certainly hope that the mounts ability to slew and act safely are built into the CP4.  The operator only need to initialize properly.  If that’s not true, there should be big warnings about that.  I have been using mine for a couple of years now just initializing without setting any kind of limits on anything, and have never had a problem.  It has performed flawlessly.

Just my opinion, but the mount should come with both the keypad and APCC standard software.

You did bring up SB, and their prices didn’t seem that out of line with AP and they include a full package of SkyX and a handset.  Not trying to debate which is better.  There’s plenty of that on CN.  I like my AP1100, but I must admit that I did consider purchasing SkyX after using APCC.  More expense I would need to explain to the CFO.

I guess a question I have for AP is why the keypad is so expensive?  I guess another is can I trade my APCC in to get credit toward a keypad so I can use Roland’s new drift correction system with the keypad?  I honestly would consider that.

Thanks,

Don

Don Rudny


> On May 30, 2020, at 12:01 PM, Ray Gralak <groups3@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Don,
>
>> I was a little surprise to have to shell out what I did for APCC after spending over eight large
>> on the mount.
>
> A-P could have increased the price of their mounts and included software with every mount. That's what, for example, Software Bisque does with their mounts. And you have to pay an annual subscription fee if you want to keep getting new features.
>
> But A-P allows each person to decide if they want to purchase the software or not. The same thing with the keypad. You could have been "forced" to pay for the keypad if you wanted your 1100 but you got to save money by not having to. Doesn't this make sense?
>
>> on the mount.  One would think that software to run it would have been included.
>> I love the mount, but sorry to say, was disappointed in the control software.
>
> And I am glad you love your mount! I love mine too!
>
> But, APCC wasn't intended to be control software. In fact, one goal was that it be "transparent" to third party control software. APCC Standard adds safety features and new functionality. APCC Pro adds sophisticated pointing and tracking rate correction.
>
> Third party applications don't even know, nor have to know, about APCC's safety features, or that APCC Pro is applying pointing and tracking rate correction. APCC just automatically works and is transparent to every software application using it. I think that people underestimate the value of this.
>
> That said, what do you feel should have been included in terms of control software with the mount?
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Donald Rudny
>> Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 1:19 PM
>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>>
>> Hi Ray,
>>
>> I think any imaging program would work.  From my understanding the images just need to be saved in a folder
>> that is watched by Atrack.  It coordinates Pinpoint to plate solve the images and then adjusts the tracking rate
>> accordingly.  I haven’t used it yet, but have been reviewing the user guide.  I assume that any image file format
>> could be used similar to astrometry.net.  I use Starlight Live, and it can save each exposure to a selected folder
>> as a fits file.  I think that will work.  Unfortunately it doesn’t solve my Mac issue.  Starlight Live does have a
>> native Windows version, too, but I prefer Mac.
>>
>> I have the APCC standard version.  I do have a Windows 10 machine strictly used for Astro stuff.  I use it to
>> initialize my mount and park it for my home observatory.  After initializing, I connect to my iPad and use
>> SkySafari the rest of the night.  My home observatory uses a P3 park position, so that’s why I use APCC.  I
>> understand SkySafari was suppose to add other park positions, but I don’t think that happened yet.  They only
>> use P4 which works well in the field.  There I don’t even bring my PC with Windows.
>>
>> I’ve been a Mac guy since 1984.  I cringe every time I even hear the word Windows.  I see all the issues
>> everyone has with it.  The idea of having APCC on a Mac or iPad sounds appealing.  I just hope I don’t have to
>> pay for it again.  I was a little surprise to have to shell out what I did for APCC after spending over eight large
>> on the mount.  One would think that software to run it would have been included.  I love the mount, but sorry to
>> say, was disappointed in the control software.
>>
>> Don
>>
>> Don Rudny
>>
>>
>>>> On May 30, 2020, at 7:57 AM, Ray Gralak <groups3@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Donald,
>>>
>>>>  I’m not trying to say that any system is better than any other.  I’m just trying to understand what is
>>>> available and what options users may have.  Cost is important as well.  I believe Atrack is free, but Pinpoint
>>>> runs about $150.  They have a 60 day trial period.  Some users out there with CP3’s might be interested in
>> this,
>>>> too.
>>>
>>> Wouldn't you also need an imaging program, like MaximDL Pro or SkyXPro?
>>>
>>>> I did purchase APCC, but I find it lacking for the price.  No
>>>> catalogue of objects.  No Mac version.  Not very intuitive.  About the only thing I use it for is to initialize the
>>>> mount at my home observatory.  Then I switch to my iPad and SkySafari for control.
>>>
>>> I take it you have APCC Standard? If you are not using Windows you are missing out then on some safety
>> and convenience features, like auto-park, and meridian and horizon limits.
>>>
>>> So, what if there was an iPad version of APCC with a full planetarium view? One of the plans for the next full
>> version of APCC is to make it cross platform. I've already started designing it and IOS is one of the possible
>> target platforms.
>>>
>>> -Ray Gralak
>>> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
>>> Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
>>> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Donald Rudny
>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 10:04 AM
>>>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>>>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>>>>
>>>> Rolando,
>>>>
>>>> If you’re interested, here’s my mobile setup.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Don Rudny
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  On May 30, 2020, at 6:59 AM, Donald Rudny via groups.io <mkea13800=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Hi Rolando,
>>>>
>>>>  Here is the link to the Pinpoint site.
>>>>
>>>>  http://pinpoint.dc3.com/
>>>>
>>>>  There is a section on accuracy that suggests that it is very accurate.
>>>>
>>>>  I’m not trying to say that any system is better than any other.  I’m just trying to understand what is
>>>> available and what options users may have.  Cost is important as well.  I believe Atrack is free, but Pinpoint
>>>> runs about $150.  They have a 60 day trial period.  Some users out there with CP3’s might be interested in
>> this,
>>>> too.
>>>>
>>>>  I like your keypad method for what I do, which is usually a portable setup with my AP1100 and C11 Edge
>>>> at  f/6 or f/2 with Hyperstar.  Sometimes I will do f/10.  It might not sound very portable, but I put everything
>> in
>>>> the back of my pickup and drive up to Maunakea to set up off the back of the truck.  It takes about 20
>> minutes.
>>>> It gets pretty cold, so we sit in the pickup and view the object images on an extended monitor.  I run the
>> cables
>>>> through the rear window.  When the VIS was open, we did something similar and put on shows for the
>> visitors
>>>> with the equipment there.  It was a big hit.  I use a Mac, so I was able to download our captured images to
>> the
>>>> visitors iPhones.  Some people stayed the whole night just to get all of them.  That’s when I first
>> experienced
>>>> your excellent mounts and keypad.  They had an AP1100 set up with an 11” RASA.  I didn’t purchase a
>> keypad
>>>> with my AP1100 because of the expense.  I decided to go with my iPad and SkySafari.  I have Luminos too.
>>>> Both work very well and are very inexpensive.  I did purchase APCC, but I find it lacking for the price.  No
>>>> catalogue of objects.  No Mac version.  Not very intuitive.  About the only thing I use it for is to initialize the
>>>> mount at my home observatory.  Then I switch to my iPad and SkySafari for control.
>>>>
>>>>  I really don’t like to set up the auto guiding stuff, so your keypad system interests me.  I think it would
>>>> work best for what I need, but I would need to center the star by eye on my Mac computer screen with
>>>> crosshairs.  How accurate will that be?  It will probably be more valuable for me running at f/6 or f/10 with
>> the
>>>> C11 than at f/2.  At f/2, I can already get a couple of minutes unguided just with using the RAPAS for PA.
>> It’s
>>>> f/6 and especially f/10 that drift some.
>>>>
>>>>  I do have the CP4, but I would need to invest another $900 for a keypad, so you see my dilemma.  I’m
>>>> willing to invest, but I need to know that it will really work for me.
>>>>
>>>>  Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>  Don
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Don Rudny
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      On May 29, 2020, at 7:38 PM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io
>>>> <chris1011=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          How accurate is centering a star by eye.
>>>>
>>>>      I actually do it automatically in MaximDL. I switch the main camera over to guide mode, let the
>>>> guider program pick whatever star it wants in the image and let it autoguide. At the end of 3  - 5 minutes I
>> press
>>>> the Enter button on the keypad and let the program advance to the next calibration point. I don't do the
>>>> centering manually, i let MaximDL do that. When I have gathered enough points I switch the camera back
>> over
>>>> to imaging and take my exposures.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      I can see where Atrack can adjust the guide rates after each image, however that means that
>>>> there is drift in the image that is being measured. I'm not 100% convinced that plate solve can determine
>> the
>>>> position to an accuracy level of sub-arc seconds, so i did not pursue this method. Besides, if you're going to
>>>> use fancy software for this, then I would simply use APCC Pro and make an all-sky model, and be done with
>> it.
>>>> My program is for portable setups where the user has a mount, scope and keypad, maybe a laptop and
>> maybe
>>>> just a digital camera. No fancy software, just the basics to have some imaging fun.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      Rolando
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      -----Original Message-----
>>>>      From: Donald Rudny <mkea13800@...>
>>>>      To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>>>>      Sent: Sat, May 30, 2020 12:12 am
>>>>      Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      Rolando,
>>>>
>>>>      I haven’t used Atrack, but have been reviewing the manual and I believe the program
>>>> continuously adjusts the drift rate as you capture images.  They are saved in a file that is watched by the
>>>> program and plate solved through Pinpoint.  I believe there is also a modeling routine that I assume can be
>>>> saved as long as the setup remains the same.  As I say, I’m not 100% sure of this, but it looks like it’s worth
>>>> taking a look at.
>>>>
>>>>      One question I have on the AP keypad system is accuracy.  How accurate is centering a star by
>>>> eye.  I would think that a longer time between inputs would be necessary to improve accuracy.  If I have a
>> fairly
>>>> decent PA, I would think I might need a 10-15 minute drift measurement.  A longer focal length would also
>> help.
>>>>
>>>>      Don
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      Don Rudny
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          On May 29, 2020, at 6:15 PM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io
>>>> <chris1011=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          Basically you get one data point in about 200 seconds (3 - 4 minutes) which sets the drift
>>>> rate at that point int he sky. So that will work for a while, maybe 1/2 hour to an hour, after which the drift will
>>>> have changed. So then you take another 3-4 minute run to establish a new drift rate. You do that every hour
>> or
>>>> so along the path that the object takes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          That's exactly what I'm doing also. 3 - 5 minute drift measurement which is good for an
>>>> hour. However, if I take just 3 drift measurements along the path, spread out over a 5 - 6 hour period, the
>> CP5
>>>> will then compute a continuously variable tracking rate for all points in between for the entire 6 hour period. I
>>>> can do this measurement all at once before the sun goes down using 3 widely spaced stars of Mag4 or
>> brighter
>>>> and an H-a filter.  Takes about 15 minutes total. This path is then computed and ready to go when twilight
>>>> ends. I can even do another object path at a different Dec, download it and be ready to image two objects.
>> In
>>>> fact, if the two Dec lines are widely spaced, I can image all objects in between also unguided because the
>>>> model computes the variable tracking rates for the entire sky area as well as +- 10 degrees outside those
>> two
>>>> Dec lines.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          Below see the tracking graphs for the imaging that I am doing tonight. They show how the
>>>> tracking rates vary over approx 45 minutes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          Rolando
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          <dummyfile.0.part>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          -----Original Message-----
>>>>          From: Steven Steven <steven447@...>
>>>>          To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
>>>>          Sent: Fri, May 29, 2020 9:52 pm
>>>>          Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          That comment has to do with a long-time on-line chess game, not for you/forum. Sorry, it's
>>>> wrong context, I've a busy day on email today.
>>>>
>>>>          In reply to your own query, you set up each object separately. I use the Autosave feature
>>>> on Maxim and when finished with one object, move to it, train ATrack, an make the second one. It's that
>> simple.
>>>> The User Guide is a good start and will answer your queries without reference to chess moves. 😉
>>>>
>>>>          S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
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