Date   

Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Ray Gralak
 

Hi Joe,

If you want to confirm your findings, and that you aren't getting fooled by something else like tube currents, try purposely offsetting the polar alignment by a large amount in both Alt and Az. Make sure you accurately perform steps 2 and 3, otherwise you might see the behavior you saw.

I would try it myself with the latest version but have been socked in by the marine layer and smoke from fires. That said, I used PEMPro to tweak polar alignment just a couple weeks ago and the directions were not reversed for me.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 5:56 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Yes Ray.

We’re on the same page, and I’ve got my bearings.
It is a standard “Push-Pull” system. Screwing-in the right side knob (on the west side on an AP-1200), where the
AZ adjuster is located on the AP-1200 North side of the pier, pushes the mount’s base plate around, away from
the pier-fixed center post – and turns the entire mount counter-clockwise.

I’ve done it lots of times, and every time I do, I try to envisage what each turn of a knob results in.

Joe.

From: Ray Gralak
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 7:04 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Hi Joe,

Just to be sure you are adjusting the correct knobs, for a 1200GTO, to rotate the mount clockwise, you tighten the
knob facing to the East. To rotate the mount counter-clockwise, you tighten the knob facing to the West. After each
adjustment, you should tighten all mount knobs so that you are measuring the drift in the state that the mount will
be in when you will be using it.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 3:10 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Hi Ray,

It was a very long night, so I must have redone PEMPRO about 5 or 6 times. I could have made the same
mistake in the lead up to the drift graph, every time, but I doubt it. I’m not new to PEMPRO use, but it is
infrequent.
Luckily, the instructions are simple.

As Tom mentioned earlier, after a few tries following screen hints, it was obvious that doing so made the drift
error progressively worse, so I reversed the logic, and turned the AZ “knobs” to rotate the mount towards the
other
direction. This made it settle down, and using the reverse direction was then consistently better.
By reversal, I mean that the entire run was giving contrary directions, as did the reruns after that. It wasn’t a logic
reversal DURING a run.

At each correction, I looked down at the mount baseplate, and considered which knob would “push it towards
or
away from the AZ post” in the direction for the mount to rotate, (horizontally in AZ), per the given instruction. I still
“suspect” that this reversal of procedure may have to do with choosing one side of the meridian, while the
camera
is either straight up, or inverted. But, that should have been determined automatically, during the calibration
steps
of clicking on the star trail, and the three star image targets.

PEMPRO worked fine for me a couple of years ago, using an earlier revision, but has also happened the weird
way, at other times in the past. I have used several versions over more than a decade. I’ll continue to investigate
its problem, or possibly mine. Perhaps I will discover a unique set of conditions that causes the logic reversal.

Please stay safe out there Ray. We need you healthy at all times.
Best regards,
Joe Z.



From: Ray Gralak
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Hi Joe,

I have used PEMPro a number of times in the last few months on my 1100AE and 1200 mounts, and haven't
seen
any direction reversals, but I can double check the next year (lol) that my California skies are clear enough.
Assuming you went through the calibration steps correctly, is it possible you could have adjusted the wrong
Azimuth knob?

Also, being above or below the pole will not affect the Az direction at all.

I also had problems with connecting the camera to the software (CCDSOFT) – kept getting the “Unavailable
ACTIVEX module” error, unless I run both the camera software (CCDSOFT) and PEMPRO-V3, “as ADMIN”.
The
website claims this is only necessary to do once, to register CCDSOFT’s Activex module – but that does NOT
seem to be the case. It has to be started in Admin mode (before) starting PEMPRO, every time.
CCDSoft (and any other ActiveX control) should register itself when it is installed, which it doesn't. If it can't
register
itself even when running as Administrator, then maybe there is reason. You might try changing the compatibility
mode of CCDSoft to Windows 7.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physicscom/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 12:19 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Hi Tom,

Funny that you should mention the odd “adjustment direction” misbehaviour running PEMPRO.

Like you, I have years of familiarity with PEMPRO, and it is actually fun to use. However, I spent hours last
night, trying to get it to behave with my AP-1200/CP4. I quickly realized that I should do the opposite, to the
direction it was asking me to adjust the AZ. Every time it said Clockwise rotation, I rotated the AZ COUNTER
clockwise, and that worked fine. Otherwise, as in your experience, following its suggestion, the gap just
widened
with every suggested direction adjustment.

I think the initial setup calibration pointing to either your East side or West of the meridian, should
automatically
determine if the camera ‘s vertical direction, Mine was upside down, during the run, pointing to West of the
PM.
Next time out, I will rerun PEMPRO, but with the scope pointing to the East side of the PM, and see if the
direction
to turn then becomes correct. As I recall, the older versions had “hockey sticks” on the drift graph, for us to help
specify the camera orientation. Now it is supposed to be automatic.

Ray, is it possible that without doing the DEC adjustment, the scope axis is pointing below or above Polaris,
and
this makes it offer the contrary direction suggestions?

I also had problems with connecting the camera to the software (CCDSOFT) – kept getting the “Unavailable
ACTIVEX module” error, unless I run both the camera software (CCDSOFT) and PEMPRO-V3, “as ADMIN”.
The
website claims this is only necessary to do once, to register CCDSOFT’s Activex module – but that does NOT
seem to be the case. It has to be started in Admin mode (before) starting PEMPRO, every time.

It is a great program, but seems to have some “direction prompting” quirks, as we have both witnessed, and
which I will investigate further to double check my observations.

Joe Z.


From: Tom Blahovici
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 2:08 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?


Hi,
I am using an AP600e with a CP4 controller and am attempting to polar align with PemPro.

I am quite familiar with the software. That is not an issue. However, how to use it properly is obviously not
apparent in my case. I have spend at least 2 hours trying to get the polar alignment even within 1 arc minute.
I did the first alignment last week, and it seemed I was within 1 minute I checked it yesterday, and it was a
degree
off. I kept trying to adjust both azimuth and altitude, but the trend lines were never stable seeing to go all over
the
place.
It would show a line being off by 6 minutes and I would adjust the mount in the right direction only to find it was
even higher. Not only that, when I did get it close, the trend line would be fine for the first 3 minutes only to
then
start slanting again.
It should not be this unstable.
A bit about the mount: It is mounted on a 10 inch diameter pier on top of a solid 3' x 3' concrete block that is 6
feet
long buried in the ground. It has been there for 5 years or so. There is no flexing on the mounting at all. Rock
solid. Scope is an FSQ106 with Moonlight nightcrawler with screw in adapters. The drive has a very smooth 3
arc
second peak to peak tracking. With PEM, +-2.8.
I am using APCC standard and the pointing has been calibrated.
Any hints please?
Thanks, Tom










Re: Help, my Mach2 seems to be lost #APCC #Mach2GTO

Terri Zittritsch
 

Happened to me to a few times in my first couple of months with the mount.   Make sure you learn how to setup find home within APCC and know how to use it.


Terri


PEMPro results

Eric Dreher <ericpdreher@...>
 
Edited

Last night our transparency conditions were not the greatest, but seeing was good so I though I'd do a PEMPro for my 2017 Mach1GTO.

Initially I was a bit let-down after seeing the +/- 4.7 arc/sec of period error, but this is a three year-old mount.  I've seen comments that the 7" pk/pk applies to mounts newly acquired.  I was very impressed about the textbook sinusoidal PE graph produced after six worm periods.  A very smooth pattern/curve on its own.

My initial RMS was 1.06 which was reduced to 0.298 in the final results after the PE curve was uploaded to my mount.  I did have some difficulty with PEMPro not wanting to invert the curve which was necessary.  I restarted PEMPro and saw the splash screen come up for well over 45 seconds.  I was patient and waited for it to disappear, which is finally did.  I was then able to invert and upload the curve to my mount, but I'm not sure why the delay.

My pk/pk error was flatlined.  This was the first time I'd used PEMPro, despite having owned it for several years.  The "fear factor" is gone, and I'm looking forward to doing this again every few months.  This is an incredible piece of software that works well, does what it says, and makes a huge difference in your guiding.  My RMS results were in the low 0.4x", with RA now closer to DEC results.

Thanks, Ray.

Eric


Re: Q. for Ray Gralak about PEMPro

CurtisC <calypte@...>
 

On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 11:34 AM, Ray Gralak wrote:
* Damaged worm wheel teeth.
The curve looks smooth to me.  I'd think it would show some irregularities if the worm were damaged.  But you looked at my logs.  What do you think?


Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Joe Zeglinski
 

Totally  agree with you Ray.
 
    I like to do as you suggest, stick to rotation reference rather than east/west positional.
Perhaps a good analogy is thinking how to steer an outboard motor boat. Pushing away from the centre line, rotates the boat direction.
 
    I never pay much mind to the east/west reference, but rely on considering what rotation results by pushing the left or right screw off the “centre line (post).
 
    However, that only works for the old AP-900 & AP-1200 mounts, with the azimuth adjuster at the back of the mount, on the north side. The MACH series and newer mounts have the AZ adjuster now on the south side, which work oppositely. The wording could become complicated in the instruction. Each mount owner has to imagine how the knob push system works to get a specific rotation.
 
    However, for now, I’m am convinced that I have my bearings correct, and indeed, as Tom wrote, the PEMPRO screen queues ... under some conditions perhaps ... contradict program logic, based on the resulting drift changes.
 
Joe
 

From: Ray Gralak
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 7:23 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
 
> I quickly realized that I should do the opposite,
>
> Yes.  When it says to point the mount further west,
> it really means further east, and vice versa.

Unfortunately, East/West can be ambiguous. The scope is pointing roughly South, so rotating the telescope's pointing position West actually rotates the polar azimuth position East.

To try to minimize confusion, PEMPro also states which way to rotate the mount: clockwise, or counterclockwise, if looking from the top of the mount down over the mount.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Joe Zeglinski
 

Ray,
 
    One thought came to me during my problematic runs – the major planets (Jupiter & Saturn)  are very close to the meridian right now, slightly south of the equatorial. This won’t matter at any other time, but for the present, is there any chance that PEMPRO might have latched onto a bright planet, as it searched for a suitable star at say 3 degrees from the meridian? Then it is tracking something moving at “planetary rate” rather than sidereal.
Of course this conjunction would never happen again, but just a coincidence, at this time. Never happened over all my years of using PEMPRO.
 
    Would have been safer to target a star myself elsewhere in the nearby region, rather than take the easy & quick choice of letting PEMPRO find something suitable like the sweet spot,  at the equator,  3 degrees west of PM. Or, maybe my change from the default of 5 degrees to 3 degrees, might have pushed the scope to the east of the PM during its square pattern search, causing the confusion in reference direction when the drift measurement started.
Probably a stretch here.
 
Joe
 

From: Ray Gralak
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 8:33 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
 

> Can the dew heater cause a non-stable drift alignment? 

 

Taken from PEMPro’s polar alignment checklist:

 

 

-Ray Gralak

Author of PEMPro

Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro

Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

 

 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tom Blahovici

> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 4:36 PM

> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

>

> Ray,

> I have two separate question threads running... one for PEM and one for polar alignment.  This one is polar

> alignment.  Can the dew heater cause a non-stable drift alignment?  It seems to go all over the place.


Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Joe Zeglinski
 

Yes Ray.
 
    We’re on the same page, and I’ve got my bearings.
It is a standard  “Push-Pull” system. Screwing-in the right side knob  (on the west side on an AP-1200),   where the AZ adjuster is located on the AP-1200 North side of the pier, pushes  the mount’s base plate around,  away  from the pier-fixed  center post – and turns the entire mount counter-clockwise.
 
    I’ve done it lots of times, and every time I do, I try to envisage what each turn of a knob results in.
 
Joe.
 

From: Ray Gralak
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 7:04 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
 
Hi Joe,

Just to be sure you are adjusting the correct knobs, for a 1200GTO, to rotate the mount clockwise, you tighten the knob facing to the East. To rotate the mount counter-clockwise, you tighten the knob facing to the West. After each adjustment, you should tighten all mount knobs so that you are measuring the drift in the state that the mount will be in when you will be using it.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 3:10 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
>
> Hi Ray,
>
>     It was a very long night, so I must have redone PEMPRO about 5 or 6 times.  I could have made the same
> mistake in the lead up to the drift graph,  every time, but I doubt it. I’m not new to PEMPRO use, but it is infrequent.
> Luckily, the instructions are simple.
>
>     As Tom mentioned earlier, after a few tries following screen hints, it was obvious that doing so made the drift
> error progressively worse, so I reversed the logic, and turned the AZ “knobs” to rotate the mount towards the other
> direction. This made it settle down, and using the reverse direction was then consistently better.
> By reversal, I mean that the entire run was giving contrary directions, as did the reruns after that. It wasn’t a logic
> reversal DURING a run.
>
>     At each correction, I looked down at the mount baseplate, and considered which knob would “push it towards or
> away from the AZ post” in the direction for the mount to rotate, (horizontally in AZ), per the given instruction. I still
> “suspect” that this reversal of procedure may have to do with choosing one side of the meridian, while the camera
> is either straight up, or inverted. But, that should have been determined automatically,  during the calibration steps
> of clicking on the star trail, and the three star image targets.
>
>     PEMPRO worked fine for me a couple of years ago, using an earlier revision, but has also happened the weird
> way, at other times in the past. I have used several versions over more than a decade. I’ll continue to investigate
> its problem, or possibly mine. Perhaps I will discover a unique set of conditions that causes the logic  reversal.
>
>     Please stay safe out there Ray. We need you healthy at all times.
> Best regards,
> Joe Z.
>
>
>
> From: Ray Gralak
> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 4:14 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
>
> Hi Joe,
>
> I have used PEMPro a number of times in the last few months on my 1100AE and 1200 mounts, and haven't seen
> any direction reversals, but I can double check the next year (lol) that my California skies are clear enough.
> Assuming you went through the calibration steps correctly, is it possible you could have adjusted the wrong
> Azimuth knob?
>
> Also, being above or below the pole will not affect the Az direction at all.
>
> >     I also had problems with connecting the camera to the software (CCDSOFT) – kept getting the “Unavailable
> > ACTIVEX module” error, unless I run both the camera software (CCDSOFT) and PEMPRO-V3, “as ADMIN”. The
> > website claims this is only necessary to do once, to register CCDSOFT’s Activex module – but that does NOT
> > seem to be the case. It has to be started  in Admin mode (before) starting PEMPRO,   every time.
>
> CCDSoft (and any other ActiveX control) should register itself when it is installed, which it doesn't. If it can't register
> itself even when running as Administrator, then maybe there is reason. You might try changing the compatibility
> mode of CCDSoft to Windows 7.
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of PEMPro
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physicscom/apcc-pro
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
> > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 12:19 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
> >
> > Hi Tom,
> >
> >     Funny that you should mention the odd “adjustment direction” misbehaviour running PEMPRO.
> >
> >     Like you, I have years of familiarity with PEMPRO, and it is actually fun to use. However, I spent hours last
> > night,  trying to get it to behave with my AP-1200/CP4. I quickly realized that I should do the opposite,  to the
> > direction it was asking me to adjust the AZ. Every time it said Clockwise rotation, I rotated the AZ COUNTER
> > clockwise, and that worked fine. Otherwise, as in your experience, following its suggestion, the gap just widened
> > with every suggested direction adjustment.
> >
> >     I think the initial setup calibration  pointing to either your East side or West of the meridian, should
> automatically
> > determine if the camera ‘s vertical direction, Mine was upside down, during the run, pointing to   West of the PM.
> > Next time out, I will rerun PEMPRO, but with the scope pointing to the East side of the PM, and see if the
> direction
> > to turn then becomes correct. As I recall, the older versions had “hockey sticks” on the drift graph, for us to help
> > specify the camera orientation. Now it is supposed to be automatic.
> >
> >     Ray, is it possible that without doing the DEC adjustment, the scope axis is pointing below or above Polaris,
> and
> > this makes it offer the contrary direction suggestions?
> >
> >     I also had problems with connecting the camera to the software (CCDSOFT) – kept getting the “Unavailable
> > ACTIVEX module” error, unless I run both the camera software (CCDSOFT) and PEMPRO-V3, “as ADMIN”. The
> > website claims this is only necessary to do once, to register CCDSOFT’s Activex module – but that does NOT
> > seem to be the case. It has to be started  in Admin mode (before) starting PEMPRO,   every time.
> >
> >     It is a great program, but seems to have some “direction prompting” quirks, as we have both witnessed, and
> > which I will investigate further to double check my observations.
> >
> > Joe Z.
> >
> >
> > From: Tom Blahovici
> > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 2:08 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > Subject: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> > I am using an AP600e with a CP4 controller and am attempting to polar align with PemPro.
> >
> > I am quite familiar with the software. That is not an issue. However, how to use it properly is obviously not
> > apparent in my case.  I have spend at least 2 hours trying to get the polar alignment even within 1 arc minute.
> > I did the first alignment last week, and it seemed I was within 1 minute  I checked it yesterday, and it was a
> degree
> > off. I kept trying to adjust both azimuth and altitude, but the trend lines were never stable seeing to go all over the
> > place.
> > It would show a line being off by 6 minutes and I would adjust the mount in the right direction only to find it was
> > even higher.  Not only that, when I did get it close, the trend line would be fine for the first 3 minutes only to then
> > start slanting again.
> > It should not be this unstable.
> > A bit about the mount: It is mounted on a 10 inch diameter pier on top of a solid 3' x 3' concrete block that is 6
> feet
> > long buried in the ground. It has been there for 5 years or so. There is no flexing on the mounting at all.  Rock
> > solid.  Scope is an FSQ106 with Moonlight nightcrawler with screw in adapters.  The drive has a very smooth 3
> arc
> > second peak to peak tracking.  With PEM, +-2.8.
> > I am using APCC standard and the pointing has been calibrated.
> > Any hints please?
> > Thanks, Tom
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>




Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Ray Gralak
 

> Can the dew heater cause a non-stable drift alignment? 

 

Taken from PEMPro’s polar alignment checklist:

 

 

-Ray Gralak

Author of PEMPro

Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro

Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

 

 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tom Blahovici

> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 4:36 PM

> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

>

> Ray,

> I have two separate question threads running... one for PEM and one for polar alignment.  This one is polar

> alignment.  Can the dew heater cause a non-stable drift alignment?  It seems to go all over the place.


Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Tom Blahovici
 

Hi
All the bolts were tightened each time I changes as or alt. I'll try again, the next free night, no heater on, and use you're trick for the altitude.
Thanks for the hints.


Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Roland Christen
 

Not tightening all the bolts can cause what you are seeing.
Plumes from a dew heater can add to that.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Blahovici <tom.va2fsq@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Sep 12, 2020 6:35 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Ray,
I have two separate question threads running... one for PEM and one for polar alignment.  This one is polar alignment.  Can the dew heater cause a non-stable drift alignment?  It seems to go all over the place.


Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Tom Blahovici
 

Ray,
I have two separate question threads running... one for PEM and one for polar alignment.  This one is polar alignment.  Can the dew heater cause a non-stable drift alignment?  It seems to go all over the place.


Re: Help finding source of PE fundamentals using PemPro

Ray Gralak
 

So, is the harmonic at 3x perhaps due to drift?
No, that is extremely unlikely.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tom Blahovici
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 3:39 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Help finding source of PE fundamentals using PemPro

So, is the harmonic at 3x perhaps due to drift? It seems to have shifted a bit. I did not check the boxes for drift
adjustment.


Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Ray Gralak
 

Tube currents....I did have my dew heater on the lens of the FSQ106
running. Could this contribute to a lack of stability?
Yes, dew heaters can potentially cause tube currents and random drift, but that is not going to cause a 3x fundamental frequency.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tom Blahovici
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 3:45 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Tube currents....I did have my dew heater on the lens of the FSQ106 running. Could this contribute to a lack of
stability?

As a side note, last year it took me 4 evenings to adjust. The first three, I had a loose connection from the mount
to the pier. So, adjusting east or west was anyone's guess as to which way it was moving lol.


Re: Help finding source of PE fundamentals using PemPro

Ray Gralak
 

Just in case it is not clear, I did upload 1x and 3x.
The result is that the 3x shifted to 3.1 but it did not seem to reduce it.
Then maybe the frequency might not be exactly 3.0x and thus cannot be corrected by PEC. I suggest you contact Howard at A-P directly, as he probably can look up the mechanical details on the 600 series mounts, which has been out of production for a long time.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tom Blahovici
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 3:41 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Help finding source of PE fundamentals using PemPro

Just in case it is not clear, I did upload 1x and 3x. The result is that the 3x shifted to 3.1 but it did not seem to
reduce it.


Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Ray Gralak
 

I quickly realized that I should do the opposite,

Yes. When it says to point the mount further west,
it really means further east, and vice versa.
Unfortunately, East/West can be ambiguous. The scope is pointing roughly South, so rotating the telescope's pointing position West actually rotates the polar azimuth position East.

To try to minimize confusion, PEMPro also states which way to rotate the mount: clockwise, or counterclockwise, if looking from the top of the mount down over the mount.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of CurtisC via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 3:16 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 02:21 PM, Joe Zeglinski wrote:


I quickly realized that I should do the opposite,

Yes. When it says to point the mount further west, it really means further east, and vice versa.


Re: Help finding source of PE fundamentals using PemPro

Ray Gralak
 

This is not a matter of polar alignment. There are other things, like tube currents and local seeing conditions that can cause weird irregular drift. Irregular drift patterns can affect polar alignment results as well.

If the curves aren't lining up with drift fitting on, then the drift may be complex. However, that won't matter for the purpose of creating a PEC curve. That said, PEC will not give you perfect results if the shape of the curves is different from cycle to cycle.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of CurtisC via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 3:12 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Help finding source of PE fundamentals using PemPro

On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 03:40 PM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> wrote:


The absolute main thing that makes PEM work is that the various curves lie close on top of one another,
which in your case they do.

So how do you do that? My curves usually wander slowly up the graph. My polar alignment is as good as I can
get it with PEMPro's Polar Alignment Wizard, and I can take 30 min subs with no noticeable field rotation.


Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Ray Gralak
 

Hi Joe,

Just to be sure you are adjusting the correct knobs, for a 1200GTO, to rotate the mount clockwise, you tighten the knob facing to the East. To rotate the mount counter-clockwise, you tighten the knob facing to the West. After each adjustment, you should tighten all mount knobs so that you are measuring the drift in the state that the mount will be in when you will be using it.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 3:10 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Hi Ray,

It was a very long night, so I must have redone PEMPRO about 5 or 6 times. I could have made the same
mistake in the lead up to the drift graph, every time, but I doubt it. I’m not new to PEMPRO use, but it is infrequent.
Luckily, the instructions are simple.

As Tom mentioned earlier, after a few tries following screen hints, it was obvious that doing so made the drift
error progressively worse, so I reversed the logic, and turned the AZ “knobs” to rotate the mount towards the other
direction. This made it settle down, and using the reverse direction was then consistently better.
By reversal, I mean that the entire run was giving contrary directions, as did the reruns after that. It wasn’t a logic
reversal DURING a run.

At each correction, I looked down at the mount baseplate, and considered which knob would “push it towards or
away from the AZ post” in the direction for the mount to rotate, (horizontally in AZ), per the given instruction. I still
“suspect” that this reversal of procedure may have to do with choosing one side of the meridian, while the camera
is either straight up, or inverted. But, that should have been determined automatically, during the calibration steps
of clicking on the star trail, and the three star image targets.

PEMPRO worked fine for me a couple of years ago, using an earlier revision, but has also happened the weird
way, at other times in the past. I have used several versions over more than a decade. I’ll continue to investigate
its problem, or possibly mine. Perhaps I will discover a unique set of conditions that causes the logic reversal.

Please stay safe out there Ray. We need you healthy at all times.
Best regards,
Joe Z.



From: Ray Gralak
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Hi Joe,

I have used PEMPro a number of times in the last few months on my 1100AE and 1200 mounts, and haven't seen
any direction reversals, but I can double check the next year (lol) that my California skies are clear enough.
Assuming you went through the calibration steps correctly, is it possible you could have adjusted the wrong
Azimuth knob?

Also, being above or below the pole will not affect the Az direction at all.

I also had problems with connecting the camera to the software (CCDSOFT) – kept getting the “Unavailable
ACTIVEX module” error, unless I run both the camera software (CCDSOFT) and PEMPRO-V3, “as ADMIN”. The
website claims this is only necessary to do once, to register CCDSOFT’s Activex module – but that does NOT
seem to be the case. It has to be started in Admin mode (before) starting PEMPRO, every time.
CCDSoft (and any other ActiveX control) should register itself when it is installed, which it doesn't. If it can't register
itself even when running as Administrator, then maybe there is reason. You might try changing the compatibility
mode of CCDSoft to Windows 7.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 12:19 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Hi Tom,

Funny that you should mention the odd “adjustment direction” misbehaviour running PEMPRO.

Like you, I have years of familiarity with PEMPRO, and it is actually fun to use. However, I spent hours last
night, trying to get it to behave with my AP-1200/CP4. I quickly realized that I should do the opposite, to the
direction it was asking me to adjust the AZ. Every time it said Clockwise rotation, I rotated the AZ COUNTER
clockwise, and that worked fine. Otherwise, as in your experience, following its suggestion, the gap just widened
with every suggested direction adjustment.

I think the initial setup calibration pointing to either your East side or West of the meridian, should
automatically
determine if the camera ‘s vertical direction, Mine was upside down, during the run, pointing to West of the PM.
Next time out, I will rerun PEMPRO, but with the scope pointing to the East side of the PM, and see if the
direction
to turn then becomes correct. As I recall, the older versions had “hockey sticks” on the drift graph, for us to help
specify the camera orientation. Now it is supposed to be automatic.

Ray, is it possible that without doing the DEC adjustment, the scope axis is pointing below or above Polaris,
and
this makes it offer the contrary direction suggestions?

I also had problems with connecting the camera to the software (CCDSOFT) – kept getting the “Unavailable
ACTIVEX module” error, unless I run both the camera software (CCDSOFT) and PEMPRO-V3, “as ADMIN”. The
website claims this is only necessary to do once, to register CCDSOFT’s Activex module – but that does NOT
seem to be the case. It has to be started in Admin mode (before) starting PEMPRO, every time.

It is a great program, but seems to have some “direction prompting” quirks, as we have both witnessed, and
which I will investigate further to double check my observations.

Joe Z.


From: Tom Blahovici
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 2:08 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?


Hi,
I am using an AP600e with a CP4 controller and am attempting to polar align with PemPro.

I am quite familiar with the software. That is not an issue. However, how to use it properly is obviously not
apparent in my case. I have spend at least 2 hours trying to get the polar alignment even within 1 arc minute.
I did the first alignment last week, and it seemed I was within 1 minute I checked it yesterday, and it was a
degree
off. I kept trying to adjust both azimuth and altitude, but the trend lines were never stable seeing to go all over the
place.
It would show a line being off by 6 minutes and I would adjust the mount in the right direction only to find it was
even higher. Not only that, when I did get it close, the trend line would be fine for the first 3 minutes only to then
start slanting again.
It should not be this unstable.
A bit about the mount: It is mounted on a 10 inch diameter pier on top of a solid 3' x 3' concrete block that is 6
feet
long buried in the ground. It has been there for 5 years or so. There is no flexing on the mounting at all. Rock
solid. Scope is an FSQ106 with Moonlight nightcrawler with screw in adapters. The drive has a very smooth 3
arc
second peak to peak tracking. With PEM, +-2.8.
I am using APCC standard and the pointing has been calibrated.
Any hints please?
Thanks, Tom







Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Tom Blahovici
 

Tube currents....I did have my dew heater on the lens of the FSQ106 running.  Could this contribute to a lack of stability?

As a side note, last year it took me 4 evenings to adjust.  The first three, I had a loose connection from the mount to the pier.  So, adjusting east or west was anyone's guess as to which way it was moving lol.


Re: Help finding source of PE fundamentals using PemPro

Tom Blahovici
 

So, is the harmonic at 3x perhaps due to drift?  It seems to have shifted a bit.  I did not check the boxes for drift adjustment.


Re: Help finding source of PE fundamentals using PemPro

Roland Christen
 


So how do you do that?  My curves usually wander slowly up the graph. 
Perhaps I didn't make things clear. Yes, the individual graphs may wander slowly, but that's simply because of drift. You check the little box for the X or Y that brings the curves down on top of each other. Checking the box essentially compensates for drift and allows just the periodic part of the error to be shown for each of the worm periods. They will lay on top of each other.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: CurtisC via groups.io <calypte@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Sep 12, 2020 5:12 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Help finding source of PE fundamentals using PemPro

On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 03:40 PM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> wrote:
The absolute main thing that makes PEM work is that the various curves lie close on top of one another, which in your case they do.
So how do you do that?  My curves usually wander slowly up the graph.  My polar alignment is as good as I can get it with PEMPro's Polar Alignment Wizard, and I can take 30 min subs with no noticeable field rotation.

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