Your commentary proves that the cost/benefit of PinPoint is minimal, and I would go further to say that you think it is a great solution because of the sunk cost you have on your ledger. Not because its actually good from a cost/benefit perspective vs other competing options. 

The sunk cost fallacy. 😉

---

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Valente <bvalente@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 8:04 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE

 

>>> Fine, would you quibble about me asking you to send me $150 plus yearly sub costs since, apparently, it means nothing to you? Are you really that full of yourself?  I have no idea why you would be resistant to this want because it wouldn't affect you anyway; or is being this kind of person is just how you roll?

haha well Dale, i'm not sure how you concluded this was me being full of myself

It's a simple cost benefit analysis.

 

You could make that same statement/argument of AP, or any other vendor in the solution, that they should include xyz because it doesn't work otherwise. 

I'm not interested in throwing my money away, and I'm not made of money.

My position is simply that relative to the cost of everything else, having a working reliable platesolve as part of it is one of the smallest expenses I've encountered. 

You may feel differently about if it's a legitimate or warranted expense, but financially speaking, the above is true.

I use SGP, ASTAP, and a bunch of other software on other setups I have, and I appreciate the advances they  made. And as I said, If and when APPM supports ASTAP or whatever, i'll be happy to move to the best solution, i'm not against that at all. I'm about what works today

On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 7:53 PM Dale Ghent <daleg@...> wrote:

> On Sep 26, 2020, at 10:20 PM, Brian Valente <bvalente@...> wrote:
>
>
> My AP mount (and presumably yours) cost untold thousands of dollars (worth it),
>
> Filters, camera etc. telescope are probably equivalent but likely more.
>
> APCC costs about 1500 full price(?)
>
> and you want to quibble about $150 for a plate solving solution that makes your pointing and tracking significantly improved?
>
>  This totally mystifies me.
>
> APCC Pro and pinpoint to me are the biggest no-brainer decision. It's one of the smallest expenses in this whole setup. it's probably less than just the tax we paid for the camera!

Fine, would you quibble about me asking you to send me $150 plus yearly sub costs since, apparently, it means nothing to you? Are you really that full of yourself?  I have no idea why you would be resistant to this want because it wouldn't affect you anyway; or is being this kind of person is just how you roll?

Conversely, a $1500 suite should not require another $XXX (yearly recurring) dollars of 3rd party /middleware/ in order to just execute a core function. I mean, we're not even using SGPro (or TSX for that matter) for other purposes that are unique to those programs - they're just surrogates for running a plate solver... plate solvers that APPM can do just as well running directly and cut out the extra indirection.

/dale

--

Brian 

Brian Valente

portfolio brianvalentephotography.com 

> On Sep 26, 2020, at 10:20 PM, Brian Valente <bvalente@...> wrote:
>
>
> My AP mount (and presumably yours) cost untold thousands of dollars (worth it),
>
> Filters, camera etc. telescope are probably equivalent but likely more.
>
> APCC costs about 1500 full price(?)
>
> and you want to quibble about $150 for a plate solving solution that makes your pointing and tracking significantly improved?
>
>  This totally mystifies me.
>
> APCC Pro and pinpoint to me are the biggest no-brainer decision. It's one of the smallest expenses in this whole setup. it's probably less than just the tax we paid for the camera!

Fine, would you quibble about me asking you to send me $150 plus yearly sub costs since, apparently, it means nothing to you? Are you really that full of yourself?  I have no idea why you would be resistant to this want because it wouldn't affect you anyway; or is being this kind of person is just how you roll?

Conversely, a $1500 suite should not require another $XXX (yearly recurring) dollars of 3rd party /middleware/ in order to just execute a core function. I mean, we're not even using SGPro (or TSX for that matter) for other purposes that are unique to those programs - they're just surrogates for running a plate solver... plate solvers that APPM can do just as well running directly and cut out the extra indirection.

/dale

Pinpoint is not a requirement to get that benefit. That is my whole point here. APCC Pro is excellent and well worth the money. I have said that here, on CN, and anywhere else I can! 🙂 

PEMPro is another example of excellent software that is well worth the price for it. PEMPro is $150 and PinPoint is $150. One of them is priceless for PE correction, Polar Alignment, assessing backlash, etc. The other is so dated that it misses the mark on value because its magic is obsolete and well-reproduced by the community and even bested by the community. 

I would dig my talons into ACP on this thread, but that would be off-topic. I will say thats another ancient pile of scripts (from the same dev) that has its days numbered by the community. 

-Bill 

---

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Valente <bvalente@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 7:30 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE

 

>>> Pinpoint for me is a no-brainer to NOT purchase.

fair enough, everyone has their own view of things

And I generally agree, pinpoint compared to other solutions does seem a bit outdated on a number of fronts. 

But I bought Pinpoint and I'm really enjoying the benefits of APCC/APPM right now, particularly doing unguided exposures on the CDK17, which wouldn't be possible otherwise.

If APCC supports ASTAP in the future (or whatever else) and does an equally good job, I'll revisit it then. 

On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 7:25 PM Bill Long <bill@...> wrote:

APCC is $500. That is well worth the price of admission as it is a very well featured piece of software that extends the experience with the product greatly.

PinPoint is ancient old tech that has no place in its asking price at all. No one in the modern world with a clue would spend $150 for software that does nothing other than Platesolve. That might have been cool interesting stuff 15 years ago, but that was then, this is now, and its a waste.

The value prop I get from my mount does not change at all either way. Pinpoint for me is a no-brainer to NOT purchase. I am also 41 and work in technology, so perhaps that skews my view of this situation for folks that may be in later stages of life.

---

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Valente <bvalente@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 7:20 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE

 

My AP mount (and presumably yours) cost untold thousands of dollars (worth it), 

Filters, camera etc. telescope are probably equivalent but likely more. 

APCC costs about 1500 full price(?)

and you want to quibble about $150 for a plate solving solution that makes your pointing and tracking significantly improved?

 This totally mystifies me. 

APCC Pro and pinpoint to me are the biggest no-brainer decision. It's one of the smallest expenses in this whole setup. it's probably less than just the tax we paid for the camera!

On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 6:35 PM Dale Ghent <daleg@...> wrote:

So here's the the main issue I have that has been preventing me from wanting to upgrade from Standard to Pro: I have to buy other software to make APPM work, and APPM is really one of the primary reasons for going to APCC Pro.

ANSVR, Astrometry.Net, ASTAP, ASPS, PlateSolve2... these are all free(*) solvers with various qualities and capabilities. But to use them with APPM, I have to put some other non-free (and now, subscription-based) software in front of them, such as TSX, SGPro or PinPoint. I have -zero- other uses for such software; if I bought (or subscribed) to them, I would be doing so only to be able to use APPM. This really feels like it could be a better arrangement.

I think what people, and certainly myself, would like is for APPM to not have this dependency and for it to be able to plate solve on its own using any (or all!) of the aforementioned solving suites. Let APPM run an ASCOM camera, and devise an internal Interface that would let you make a driver for each of whatever solvers you'd like to support. At that point, the user now has the power to choose which solver they wish to use, wether it be ASTAP or PS2 or whatever else - and do so without the middleware.

The internal interface for plate solvers is what we had to do in NINA because we realized that different folks have their preferences for solvers, sometimes nearing total religious adherence. So if someone popped up asking if they could use some new and previously-unheard of XYZ Solver with the app, all we need to know is how to make XYZ Solver solve an image that we pass to it and how to parse its results through whatever means it makes those results available. Everyone is happy and there's yet another solver listed in the drop-down menu of solvers to choose from.

> On Sep 26, 2020, at 1:04 PM, Ray Gralak <groups3@...> wrote:
>
>> Voyager uses ASTAP natively and it works like a champ. APPM doesn't solve repetitively enough for me to be
>> concerned about it.
>
> I don't even understand what that means?
>
> APPM does not natively plate solve. It uses an external plate solver. It simply reads the RA/Dec and other values from the solver,
> or intermediary app.
>
> For plate-solving I typically use PinPoint and all-sky backup to Astrometry.Net. I've done many thousands of plate solves. Maybe
> even hundreds of thousands. Unless there is a tree, clouds, or something else obscuring the sky, plate solves have been extremely
> reliable at the image scale I typically use (around 1.6 arc-sec/pixel). That said, PinPoint can have problems in areas of the sky
> where there are too many stars in the selected database, typically around the milkyway.
>
> If the image area is smaller, for example because of a longer focal length, it may be more of a challenge.
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of PEMPro
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Long
>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 9:48 AM
>> To: Ray Gralak; main@ap-gto.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>
>> Voyager uses ASTAP natively and it works like a champ. APPM doesn't solve repetitively enough for me to be
>> concerned about it.
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 9:26 AM
>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>
>>> It could be as simple as the fact that APPM is doing a large number of plate solves in a short period of time.
>>
>> I hope that's not true because it might make ASTAP a poor choice for plate solving.
>>
>> -Ray Gralak
>> Author of PEMPro
>> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center):
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-
>> physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0>
>> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;d
>> ata=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0
>> %7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&am
>> p;reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;
>> data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C
>> 0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&a
>> mp;reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of W Hilmo
>>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 8:50 AM
>>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>>
>>> I agree.
>>>
>>> I suspect that it's an ASTAP problem, but something that APPM is doing is exposing it.  It could be as simple as
>> the
>>> fact that APPM is doing a large number of plate solves in a short period of time.  As I mentioned, I've not had time
>>> to do any investigation at all yet.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Gralak
>>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2020 6:52 PM
>>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>>
>>>> I switched to ASTAP for my plate solves with SGP and am seeing what is
>>>> probably the same issue described in the first post of this thread.
>>>
>>> APPM doesn't know which plate solver is in use when SGPro is used for plate solving. APPM operates the same
>>> way for all SGPro plate solvers because APPM uses the SGPro API for plate solving. Since PlateSolve2 doesn't
>>> seem to show the same problem, it seems likely that the problem is with how SGPro handles ASTAP.
>>>
>>> -Ray Gralak
>>> Author of PEMPro
>>> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center):
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-
>> physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0>
>>> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;d
>> ata=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0
>> %7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&am
>> p;reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;
>> data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C
>> 0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&a
>> mp;reserved=0>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf
>>>> Of W Hilmo
>>>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2020 9:29 AM
>>>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>>>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>>>
>>>> I switched to ASTAP for my plate solves with SGP and am seeing what is
>>>> probably the same issue described in the first post of this thread.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--

Brian 

Brian Valente

portfolio brianvalentephotography.com 

--

Brian 

Brian Valente

portfolio brianvalentephotography.com