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Re: Current manuals electronically?

Sébastien Doré
 

Hi Mike,

I think perfect balancing isn't possible in every possible mount position. OTAs with attached astro-gears are generally complex loads in that they are not evenly distributed nor infinitesimaly small and centered at a single center of mass. The mass distribution of the mount itself would play a role in this too. 

Therefore, when we try to balance them at certain positions, we do so for the worst case scenarios and with only one degree of liberty (we can't adjust the OTA's center of mass side-to-side in a standard dovetail, only back to front), which will only result in approximate balancing at best for all other positions. Several iterations of incremental adjustments probably tends to minimize the uneven distribution of the load, but its never going to be perfect everywhere.

I also think some OTA types are more sensitive to their balance point in every axes by design, eg we know SCTs are inherently back-heavy while long refractors with attached eyepieces / cameras are more symetrically balanced in length, width and height, hence their center of mass easier to align in multiple positions.

That's my uneducated understanding anyway...

Clear skies,
Sébastien

De : main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> de la part de M Hambrick <mhambrick563@...>
Envoyé : 4 août 2021 14:56
À : main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Objet : Re: [ap-gto] Current manuals electronically?
 
Thanks Roland

The DEC balance is spot on with the scope positioned on both west and east sides, but I still have the top heavy RA axis in Park 3.

Mike

Re: Current manuals electronically?

Roland Christen
 

Sometimes a finderscope or guide scope sticking out to the side will cause that. Dec seems balanced, but the actual weight is not centered along the axis.

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: M Hambrick <mhambrick563@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Aug 4, 2021 1:56 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Current manuals electronically?

Thanks Roland

The DEC balance is spot on with the scope positioned on both west and east sides, but I still have the top heavy RA axis in Park 3.

Mike

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics
Re: Current manuals electronically?

George
 

Mike,

 

Please send a photo of the setup.

 

Regards,

 

George

 

George Whitney

Astro-Physics, Inc.

Phone:  815-222-6538 (direct line)

Phone:  815-282-1513 (office)

Email:  george@...

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of M Hambrick
Sent: Wednesday, August 4, 2021 1:57 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Current manuals electronically?

 

Thanks Roland

The DEC balance is spot on with the scope positioned on both west and east sides, but I still have the top heavy RA axis in Park 3.

Mike

Re: Current manuals electronically?

M Hambrick
 

Thanks Roland

The DEC balance is spot on with the scope positioned on both west and east sides, but I still have the top heavy RA axis in Park 3.

Mike
Re: Current manuals electronically?

Bill Long
 

Neutral balanced (rather than cw and camera side bias) improved the performance of the Mach 2 with the max capacity load on it that I've been running for this project. I assume the same will apply to the 1100, etc?

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Roland Christen via groups.io <chris1011@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 4, 2021 8:26 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Current manuals electronically?
 
You can do rough balance in both axes but then:

Always balance Dec first before final balance in RA.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: M Hambrick <mhambrick563@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Aug 4, 2021 10:12 am
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Current manuals electronically?

Thanks for the heads-up Marj. I will wait for the new balancing recommendations.

In the meantime I have some questions about balancing that George, Howard, or Roland may want to comment on.

I have been taking advantage of the terrible weather here to check the balance of my imaging trains indoors. During this process I observed some behavior that has me concerned about whether my system is really balanced or not.

I followed the 9-step precision balancing procedure that is described in the current version (March, 2021) of the 1100 GTO manual:
  • Started from Park 3
  • Disengaged the RA gearbox and swung the CW shaft horizontal with the weights on the east side
  • Adjusted counterweights to achieve balance then slid bottom weight down slightly to bias weight very slightly towards the CW side.
  • Reengaged RA gearbox with CW shaft still in horizontal position.
  • Disengaged DEC gearbox and moved scope into horizontal orientation (facing south)
  • Moved scope in the dovetail to achieve balance, then slid slightly to camera end to bias weight slightly to the camera end.
  • Reengaged DEC gearbox
  • Repositioned the scope and mount into Park 3
After I completed this balancing procedure I disengaged the RA gearbox again with the mount in Park 3, and the scope immediately started rotating downwards. If I just let it go it would swung back and forth a few times and come to rest with the CW shaft approximately horizontal.

Next, I moved the mount into Park 2 and disengaged the RA gearbox again. This time the scope did not start swinging downwards, but behaved as it did during the RA balancing procedure with a slight bias toward the CW side.

The takeaway from this is that the RA balance is heavily dependent on the declination. My concern is how does this moving balance point affect the guiding performance.

Mike

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics

Re: Current manuals electronically?

Roland Christen
 

You can do rough balance in both axes but then:

Always balance Dec first before final balance in RA.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: M Hambrick <mhambrick563@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Aug 4, 2021 10:12 am
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Current manuals electronically?

Thanks for the heads-up Marj. I will wait for the new balancing recommendations.

In the meantime I have some questions about balancing that George, Howard, or Roland may want to comment on.

I have been taking advantage of the terrible weather here to check the balance of my imaging trains indoors. During this process I observed some behavior that has me concerned about whether my system is really balanced or not.

I followed the 9-step precision balancing procedure that is described in the current version (March, 2021) of the 1100 GTO manual:
  • Started from Park 3
  • Disengaged the RA gearbox and swung the CW shaft horizontal with the weights on the east side
  • Adjusted counterweights to achieve balance then slid bottom weight down slightly to bias weight very slightly towards the CW side.
  • Reengaged RA gearbox with CW shaft still in horizontal position.
  • Disengaged DEC gearbox and moved scope into horizontal orientation (facing south)
  • Moved scope in the dovetail to achieve balance, then slid slightly to camera end to bias weight slightly to the camera end.
  • Reengaged DEC gearbox
  • Repositioned the scope and mount into Park 3
After I completed this balancing procedure I disengaged the RA gearbox again with the mount in Park 3, and the scope immediately started rotating downwards. If I just let it go it would swung back and forth a few times and come to rest with the CW shaft approximately horizontal.

Next, I moved the mount into Park 2 and disengaged the RA gearbox again. This time the scope did not start swinging downwards, but behaved as it did during the RA balancing procedure with a slight bias toward the CW side.

The takeaway from this is that the RA balance is heavily dependent on the declination. My concern is how does this moving balance point affect the guiding performance.

Mike

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics
Re: Current manuals electronically?

M Hambrick
 

Thanks for the heads-up Marj. I will wait for the new balancing recommendations.

In the meantime I have some questions about balancing that George, Howard, or Roland may want to comment on.

I have been taking advantage of the terrible weather here to check the balance of my imaging trains indoors. During this process I observed some behavior that has me concerned about whether my system is really balanced or not.

I followed the 9-step precision balancing procedure that is described in the current version (March, 2021) of the 1100 GTO manual:
  • Started from Park 3
  • Disengaged the RA gearbox and swung the CW shaft horizontal with the weights on the east side
  • Adjusted counterweights to achieve balance then slid bottom weight down slightly to bias weight very slightly towards the CW side.
  • Reengaged RA gearbox with CW shaft still in horizontal position.
  • Disengaged DEC gearbox and moved scope into horizontal orientation (facing south)
  • Moved scope in the dovetail to achieve balance, then slid slightly to camera end to bias weight slightly to the camera end.
  • Reengaged DEC gearbox
  • Repositioned the scope and mount into Park 3
After I completed this balancing procedure I disengaged the RA gearbox again with the mount in Park 3, and the scope immediately started rotating downwards. If I just let it go it would swung back and forth a few times and come to rest with the CW shaft approximately horizontal.

Next, I moved the mount into Park 2 and disengaged the RA gearbox again. This time the scope did not start swinging downwards, but behaved as it did during the RA balancing procedure with a slight bias toward the CW side.

The takeaway from this is that the RA balance is heavily dependent on the declination. My concern is how does this moving balance point affect the guiding performance.

Mike
Re: Deep Trifid from Hawaii Island

Cheng-Yang Tan
 

Wow!

On Tuesday, August 3, 2021, 6:41 PM, Jeff B <mnebula946@...> wrote:

Wow Roland, it looks three dimensional.  

Well done sir!

Jeff

On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 7:35 PM Roland Christen via groups.io <chris1011=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
I thought I would post this first to our group before making it available to the general public. This is a multi-week project that I was working on while testing mounts, CP4 and keypad functions during our recent trip to Hawaii Island. The very dark and clear skies made it possible to get some deep narrowband data.

The image was taken with my 175EDF refractor, my trusty QSI WSG8 camera, all mounted on a 1600 AE mount. I started each night with the scope under the mount, about 3.5 hours from the zenith and finished about 3.5 hours in the west with the scope on top. Seeing varied all over the place, at times better than 1.8 arc sec, and at worst over 6 arc sec. I used all frames to build the faint background image and then used the best frames for the central bright nebula.

Scope, mount and camera worked like a champ, and the roll-off roof only gave us one bad scare when the roof motor system blew a bearing. Marj and I worked until 3 am to get the roof closed, cause it does rain there occasionally. A quick call to Scott at Backyard Observatories got us a new shaft and bearing set in 2 days and we were back in business.


Rolando

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics

Re: Deep Trifid from Hawaii Island

Jeff B
 

Wow Roland, it looks three dimensional.  

Well done sir!

Jeff

On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 7:35 PM Roland Christen via groups.io <chris1011=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
I thought I would post this first to our group before making it available to the general public. This is a multi-week project that I was working on while testing mounts, CP4 and keypad functions during our recent trip to Hawaii Island. The very dark and clear skies made it possible to get some deep narrowband data.

The image was taken with my 175EDF refractor, my trusty QSI WSG8 camera, all mounted on a 1600 AE mount. I started each night with the scope under the mount, about 3.5 hours from the zenith and finished about 3.5 hours in the west with the scope on top. Seeing varied all over the place, at times better than 1.8 arc sec, and at worst over 6 arc sec. I used all frames to build the faint background image and then used the best frames for the central bright nebula.

Scope, mount and camera worked like a champ, and the roll-off roof only gave us one bad scare when the roof motor system blew a bearing. Marj and I worked until 3 am to get the roof closed, cause it does rain there occasionally. A quick call to Scott at Backyard Observatories got us a new shaft and bearing set in 2 days and we were back in business.


Rolando

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics

Deep Trifid from Hawaii Island

Roland Christen
 

I thought I would post this first to our group before making it available to the general public. This is a multi-week project that I was working on while testing mounts, CP4 and keypad functions during our recent trip to Hawaii Island. The very dark and clear skies made it possible to get some deep narrowband data.

The image was taken with my 175EDF refractor, my trusty QSI WSG8 camera, all mounted on a 1600 AE mount. I started each night with the scope under the mount, about 3.5 hours from the zenith and finished about 3.5 hours in the west with the scope on top. Seeing varied all over the place, at times better than 1.8 arc sec, and at worst over 6 arc sec. I used all frames to build the faint background image and then used the best frames for the central bright nebula.

Scope, mount and camera worked like a champ, and the roll-off roof only gave us one bad scare when the roof motor system blew a bearing. Marj and I worked until 3 am to get the roof closed, cause it does rain there occasionally. A quick call to Scott at Backyard Observatories got us a new shaft and bearing set in 2 days and we were back in business.

https://www.astrobin.com/full/bjp0m9/0/

Rolando

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics
Re: Current manuals electronically?

Marj Christen
 

Mike,

 

Thank you Mike. They are a work in progress.

 

Your best bet is to take the files (or upload them) to your nearest Kinkos, or whatever, and have them print for you.  

 

However, I suggest that you wait a bit to do that since we will have a new version of the CP4 manual soon and are discussing some updates to the 1100 and 1600 manuals also in light of the newer recommendations for balancing.

 

Clear Skies,

Marj Christen

Astro-Physics

11250 Forest Hills Road

Machesney Park, IL 61115

Phone: 815-282-1513

www.astro-physics.com

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of M Hambrick
Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 2:20 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Current manuals electronically?

 

Thanks Marj & Howard. The quality of your manuals is excellent.

By chance do you sell hard copies of the manuals ? If so, what do they cost ? I would be interested in the spiral bound paper copies of the current versions of the 1100 GTO, CP4, and Keypad manuals.

Mike

Re: Debugging Dec failure to move w/1200 CP3

George
 

Steven,

 

Please use my email below.   

 

Regards,

 

George

 

George Whitney

Astro-Physics, Inc.

Phone:  815-222-6538 (direct line)

Phone:  815-282-1513 (office)

Email:  george@...

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steven Panish
Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 1:59 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Debugging Dec failure to move w/1200 CP3

 

Thanks George.  I considered freeing up the box, but that mucks up my cabling.  A new y-cable will be here tomorrow and **maybe** that will work.  If not I'll give you a call since the issue is deeper, and at that point I really will need to start taking things apart.

 

Steve

 

On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 10:12 AM George <george@...> wrote:

Steve,

 

If the cable won’t come to the box, take the box to the cable!   You have to free the CP3 from the mount and then reverse the cables…yes, the box will dangle in the air.

 

Regards,

 

George

 

George Whitney

Astro-Physics, Inc.

Phone:  815-222-6538 (direct line)

Phone:  815-282-1513 (office)

Email:  george@...

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steven Panish
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 10:29 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Debugging Dec failure to move w/1200 CP3

 

Unfortunately the RA branch of the y-cable is too short to make it to the DEC motor connector.  I may be able to pull off the CP3 and get the cable to connect to the DEC motor.  I did put the DEC cable onto the RA and the motor did not come on.  So that would support the idea that there is a fault in the cable or CP3.  

 

There is no visible corrosion on any of the connector pins.  They do not appear to be gold plated, this is an old mount. I put DeOxIt on the female connector sockets.  Didn't help.  I'll open the CP3 up and see if any corrosion is visible.  Seems unlikely, this is in an observatory, but NH does get humid.

 

There are no software limits set that would do this.  The problem appeared out of the blue.

 

Guess I'll order a spare Y cable next week.

 

Steve

 

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 4:06 PM Jeffc <jeffcrilly@...> wrote:

 

 

On Jul 29, 2021, at 12:00 PM, Christopher Erickson <christopher.k.erickson@...> wrote:



Also consider getting a spare motor Y-cable and try that. EVERYONE should have a spare motor Y-cable in their kit. A spare power cord too.

 

Fwiw.. I also have a spare Y-cable for the 1200.

I broke the original cable once, and fixed it… but after that incident I decided to get a spare just in case. 

 

 

And there is an outside chance that a software axis limit setting is involved.


-Christopher Erickson
Observatory engineer
Waikoloa, HI 96738
www.summitkinetics.com
   

 

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 11:50 AM Manusfisch via groups.io <tjfischer653=mac.com@groups.io> wrote:

Wasn’t there a problem with the CP3 where the inside board became loose or had a corroded connection inside the box that might make intermittent problems come up with power to the motor or control to the motor? I don’t have a CP3 just a later model CP4 so I can’t really comment technically I just remember a conversation

TJF Mobile

 

On Jul 29, 2021, at 08:18, Steven Panish <scpanish@...> wrote:



Eric,

The CP3 is connected through a serial/usb converter, but the RA still responds to a nudge even when the DEC does not, so the port is still alive.   And the handbox shows the same issue.  I think the fault has to be later in the path than the comm between the PC or handbox and the CP3.  Although I don't know the architecture.  Good thought though.

Steve

 

 

 

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 11:09 AM Eric Dreher <ericpdreher@...> wrote:

Some will sleep, removing power from the port when it's considered inactive.

Re: Current manuals electronically?

M Hambrick
 

Thanks Marj & Howard. The quality of your manuals is excellent.

By chance do you sell hard copies of the manuals ? If so, what do they cost ? I would be interested in the spiral bound paper copies of the current versions of the 1100 GTO, CP4, and Keypad manuals.

Mike
Re: Heads-up on possible abrupt parking problem #Absolute_Encoders #Mach2GTO #APCC

Bill Long
 

It wouldn't explain those events at all. It's only a config change intended to prevent communication drop outs for USB devices and hubs. I would look in the windows event logs during the times you know there's a gap in the logs and see what was going on with the system.

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of David Johnson <dajohns37@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 11:52 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Heads-up on possible abrupt parking problem #Mach2GTO #APCC #Absolute_Encoders
 
I made the USB power management change suggested.  I could see how this might create an issue with the connection between the control box and the computer, but I don’t see how this could explain the almost 3 minute gap in both the APCC and SGP log files.

Re: Debugging Dec failure to move w/1200 CP3

Steven Panish
 

Thanks George.  I considered freeing up the box, but that mucks up my cabling.  A new y-cable will be here tomorrow and **maybe** that will work.  If not I'll give you a call since the issue is deeper, and at that point I really will need to start taking things apart.

Steve

On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 10:12 AM George <george@...> wrote:

Steve,

 

If the cable won’t come to the box, take the box to the cable!   You have to free the CP3 from the mount and then reverse the cables…yes, the box will dangle in the air.

 

Regards,

 

George

 

George Whitney

Astro-Physics, Inc.

Phone:  815-222-6538 (direct line)

Phone:  815-282-1513 (office)

Email:  george@...

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steven Panish
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 10:29 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Debugging Dec failure to move w/1200 CP3

 

Unfortunately the RA branch of the y-cable is too short to make it to the DEC motor connector.  I may be able to pull off the CP3 and get the cable to connect to the DEC motor.  I did put the DEC cable onto the RA and the motor did not come on.  So that would support the idea that there is a fault in the cable or CP3.  

 

There is no visible corrosion on any of the connector pins.  They do not appear to be gold plated, this is an old mount. I put DeOxIt on the female connector sockets.  Didn't help.  I'll open the CP3 up and see if any corrosion is visible.  Seems unlikely, this is in an observatory, but NH does get humid.

 

There are no software limits set that would do this.  The problem appeared out of the blue.

 

Guess I'll order a spare Y cable next week.

 

Steve

 

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 4:06 PM Jeffc <jeffcrilly@...> wrote:

 



On Jul 29, 2021, at 12:00 PM, Christopher Erickson <christopher.k.erickson@...> wrote:



Also consider getting a spare motor Y-cable and try that. EVERYONE should have a spare motor Y-cable in their kit. A spare power cord too.

 

Fwiw.. I also have a spare Y-cable for the 1200.

I broke the original cable once, and fixed it… but after that incident I decided to get a spare just in case. 



 

And there is an outside chance that a software axis limit setting is involved.


-Christopher Erickson
Observatory engineer
Waikoloa, HI 96738
www.summitkinetics.com
   

 

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 11:50 AM Manusfisch via groups.io <tjfischer653=mac.com@groups.io> wrote:

Wasn’t there a problem with the CP3 where the inside board became loose or had a corroded connection inside the box that might make intermittent problems come up with power to the motor or control to the motor? I don’t have a CP3 just a later model CP4 so I can’t really comment technically I just remember a conversation

TJF Mobile



On Jul 29, 2021, at 08:18, Steven Panish <scpanish@...> wrote:



Eric,

The CP3 is connected through a serial/usb converter, but the RA still responds to a nudge even when the DEC does not, so the port is still alive.   And the handbox shows the same issue.  I think the fault has to be later in the path than the comm between the PC or handbox and the CP3.  Although I don't know the architecture.  Good thought though.

Steve

 

 

 

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 11:09 AM Eric Dreher <ericpdreher@...> wrote:

Some will sleep, removing power from the port when it's considered inactive.

Re: Heads-up on possible abrupt parking problem #Absolute_Encoders #Mach2GTO #APCC

David Johnson
 

I made the USB power management change suggested.  I could see how this might create an issue with the connection between the control box and the computer, but I don’t see how this could explain the almost 3 minute gap in both the APCC and SGP log files.
Re: Heads-up on possible abrupt parking problem #Absolute_Encoders #Mach2GTO #APCC

Tom Blahovici
 

Windows updates frequently resets the USB selective suspend to on. This is in the advanced power settings in the windows control panel.
If the computer is not used interactively then the usb connection will be put in a low power state and it is effectively off. This could be a reason if you are using a usb connection.
Tom
Re: Current manuals electronically?

Howard Hedlund
 

We appreciate people who read our manuals!  Thank you!

HH
Re: Heads-up on possible abrupt parking problem #Absolute_Encoders #Mach2GTO #APCC

Howard Hedlund
 

Nice Iris!  I'm glad you had a good night of imaging.

HH
Re: Heads-up on possible abrupt parking problem #Absolute_Encoders #Mach2GTO #APCC

David Johnson
 

Set the Safety Parking time-out to five minutes last night, and it worked fine.  That doesn't necessarily prove anything, since this problem didn't always happen before.  Anyway, I'll update if it happens again.  Meanwhile, here is a result from the last couple of nights:

https://www.astrobin.com/yxbb24/
8301 - 8320 of 88107