Date   

New file uploaded to ap-gto

ap-gto@...
 

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the ap-gto
group.

File : /20190415_223037.jpg
Uploaded by : sink45ny <stevenhoffman53@...>
Description : AP1600AE

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Regards,

sink45ny <stevenhoffman53@...>


Astro-Physics 1600AE vs. Paramount

John A. Sillasen
 

While I'll have 2 Astro-Physics mounts, my University is looking to upgrade their current mount and scope to scope like a PlaneWave 17 or Officina Stellare 350. Also in consideration is the mount sold by PlaneWave. 

A 17" size modified Dall Kirkham or Ritchey would need the larger 1600 and probably with Absolute Encoders.  We're in Southern New England so I doubt the cold weather version is needed but looking for thoughts either way.

Have any of you owned or worked with Paramounts?  Admittedly,  I once considered the MyT myself but considering in my area I'm happy to find skies to do visual let alone imaging, the University must do imaging and some visual.  They have an FLI with the big filter wheel. I do not recall the model. They may also have an SBIG on the current 16".  The FLI gets used on a different scope, as the system being replaced has not been reliable. 

Did you choose your 1600 over a Paramount?  If so, can you explain why?  

Did you replace a Paramount when you chose to get the 1600?  What caused you to be unhappy with the Paramount to make the switch? While I have an ATS Portable Pier for my 1100, would you stick with a larger ATS permanent pier?

I have never owned a Paramount but from everything I've ever heard, people have only two experiences with them; they love them or love to hate them.

I would really like to hear your thoughts. 

Feel free to reply off list if you think it should be answered that way.  We do both visual for public outreach both as student lead programs and my Astronomy club has done so for nearly 20 years.  It's also my Alma Mater so I'm acting only as a sounding board.  I prefer to offer real information not just I am an extremely pleased with my equipment and experience with all the staff at Astro-Physics!

I am also recommending they get APPC Pro.

Your experiences would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

John A. Sillasen


Re: We get some nice letters from our customers

Roland Christen
 

Yes, Eduardo is a great guy.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Renan renan@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto@...
Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2019 8:16 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: We get some nice letters from our customers



 
This is the same kind of service we get here in Chile from your rep Astroventas (Eduardo Latorre)
 
Thanks



Re: We get some nice letters from our customers

Renan <renan@...>
 

 

This is the same kind of service we get here in Chile from your rep Astroventas (Eduardo Latorre)

 

Thanks


RS232 Cable for CP3 and SkyFi III

Ken Browne
 

Hey Everyone,


I am trying set up SkyFi III wireless RS232 device to my Mach1 CP3 controller.  A straight through RS232 cable doesn't appear to function (I've tried two) and a null modem RS232 is a bust as well.  Would anyone know the proper RS232 to utilize to make the SkyFi work with the CP3?  Thank you!


Re: Spring loaded motors on an AP Mach1GTO

neil6536
 

Thank you. Exactly what I needed to know.
Neil


Re: Spring loaded motors on an AP Mach1GTO

Roland Christen
 

Yes, they are all spring loaded. The newest ones have the adjustments on the outside where they can be easily reached, plus the lever was added to allow the worm gear to be lifted completely off the worm wheel so that you can do a very delicate balance in each axis.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: David Frederick xtrmfit@... [ap-gto] To: ap-gto
Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2019 1:32 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Spring loaded motors on an AP Mach1GTO



I thought they were all spring loaded, just the latest model were self adjusting?

On Thursday, June 13, 2019, 07:38:43 AM EDT, neil.mack@... [ap-gto] wrote:


 
Please excuse the naive question. How do I tell if the motors on my MACH1GTO are spring loaded? Is there more than one version of the motor system on these mounts, and is there an external indication of the difference? Or can it be determined from the shipping date?
Thanks,
Neil




Re: We get some nice letters from our customers

Roland Christen
 


How about posting it on CN?
I can't post anything on CN, being a Vendor. Besides, the vast majority of manufacturers and vendors in the astronomy business treat their customers the same. We all try to do our best to keep the equipment running in the field.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Dodd mike@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto
Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2019 11:12 am
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: We get some nice letters from our customers

Congratulations!

Sounds like a great testimonial for a print ad.

How about posting it on CN? You're preaching to the choir here. :-)

--
Mike

Mike Dodd
Louisa County, Virginia USA
http://astronomy.mdodd.com


------------------------------------
Posted by: Mike Dodd <mike@...>

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Re: We get some nice letters from our customers

Bill Long
 

Agreed. Excellent service, excellent products, and excellent results. 


From: ap-gto@... on behalf of steven hoffman stevenhoffman53@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 8:51 AM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] We get some nice letters from our customers
 
 

And that is why I buy AP's products in a nutshell.


From: ap-gto@... on behalf of chris1011@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 11:39 AM
To: ap-gto@...; ap-ug@...
Subject: [ap-gto] We get some nice letters from our customers
 
 

This is one from a person who visited us recently with a mount that didn't seem to work right.. He asked us to post it to the user group:

"Daleen,
 
I want to thank you & Astro-Physics for what I believe was one of the finest examples of customer service that I was the ‘astonished' recipient of.
 
I was packing up for a week long observing trip to New Mexico and was testing my 1990’s vintage 400 mount 4 days before I was leaving. I know, 4 days before wasn’t the smartest time frame but I figured it would be a routine test because the mount had worked just fine for the past 20 plus years. So, I called Astro-Physics, was given to George, explained my situation and George said 'no problem we will get you all fixed up for your trip'. George coordinated a time with me where I could bring the mount to AP so Roland could check it out. I had just realized that there is a bright side to living in the Chicago Area; I could drive to Astro-Physics and be there in 1/1/2 hours!
 
The next morning I am standing in the front office of Astro-Physics and in walks Roland and Marj, My mount goes into the shop area and I started asking Daleen all kinds of questions about products and some of the equipment  that was in the front office area. Daleen was so pleasant to talk to. I figured I should stop bothering her because she has work to do. So I asked Daleen where  I can go close by to get some internet and coffee so I can work while I was waiting. Next thing I know, Daleen has me set up in the Astro-Physics conference room; with internet and coffee!
 
I felt like I was in a hospital waiting room waiting to hear from the Doctor about the delivery of a new baby. About an hour later the Doctor (Roland) walks into the room to tell what was wrong (a minor issue as George had said) and that they are putting the mount back together in perfect working order. I left with a beautifully looking and perfectly functioning mount no more than 2 hours after I walked in.
 
So there it is; A customer with an old product who isn’t looking to buy anything new, gets treated wonderfully by AP’s staff as they pulled out all the stops to make sure the issue was addressed immediately by Roland himself. That’s nothing short of astonishing and explains why Astro-Physics is the premier manufacturer they are.  
 
Lastly, I want to say to anyone to who is looking to buy something, and if there is a similar Astro-Physics product; Do yourself a favor, get the one made by Astro-Physics. You will never need to 2nd guess your purchase. You will have the pleasure to know that you bought the best of the best, and the confidence to know that the AP product is backed up by nothing short of exceptional customer service in the rare case you ever need it.
 
Thanks again to you and everyone at AP!"

Mark Walk


Re: Spring loaded motors on an AP Mach1GTO

David Frederick
 

I thought they were all spring loaded, just the latest model were self adjusting?

On Thursday, June 13, 2019, 07:38:43 AM EDT, neil.mack@... [ap-gto] wrote:


 

Please excuse the naive question. How do I tell if the motors on my MACH1GTO are spring loaded? Is there more than one version of the motor system on these mounts, and is there an external indication of the difference? Or can it be determined from the shipping date?
Thanks,
Neil



Re: We get some nice letters from our customers

Mike Dodd
 

Congratulations!

Sounds like a great testimonial for a print ad.

How about posting it on CN? You're preaching to the choir here. :-)

--
Mike

Mike Dodd
Louisa County, Virginia USA
http://astronomy.mdodd.com


Re: We get some nice letters from our customers

thefamily90 Phillips
 

Well said. I am constantly amazed at how courteous, professional and helpful everyone at Astro-Physics is. I am in complete agreement with  Mark.

Jim Phillips


From: ap-gto@... on behalf of steven hoffman stevenhoffman53@... [ap-gto] Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 11:51:31 AM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] We get some nice letters from our customers
 
 

And that is why I buy AP's products in a nutshell.


From: ap-gto@... on behalf of chris1011@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 11:39 AM
To: ap-gto@...; ap-ug@...
Subject: [ap-gto] We get some nice letters from our customers
 
 

This is one from a person who visited us recently with a mount that didn't seem to work right.. He asked us to post it to the user group:

"Daleen,
 
I want to thank you & Astro-Physics for what I believe was one of the finest examples of customer service that I was the ‘astonished' recipient of.
 
I was packing up for a week long observing trip to New Mexico and was testing my 1990’s vintage 400 mount 4 days before I was leaving. I know, 4 days before wasn’t the smartest time frame but I figured it would be a routine test because the mount had worked just fine for the past 20 plus years. So, I called Astro-Physics, was given to George, explained my situation and George said 'no problem we will get you all fixed up for your trip'. George coordinated a time with me where I could bring the mount to AP so Roland could check it out. I had just realized that there is a bright side to living in the Chicago Area; I could drive to Astro-Physics and be there in 1/1/2 hours!
 
The next morning I am standing in the front office of Astro-Physics and in walks Roland and Marj, My mount goes into the shop area and I started asking Daleen all kinds of questions about products and some of the equipment  that was in the front office area. Daleen was so pleasant to talk to. I figured I should stop bothering her because she has work to do. So I asked Daleen where  I can go close by to get some internet and coffee so I can work while I was waiting. Next thing I know, Daleen has me set up in the Astro-Physics conference room; with internet and coffee!
 
I felt like I was in a hospital waiting room waiting to hear from the Doctor about the delivery of a new baby. About an hour later the Doctor (Roland) walks into the room to tell what was wrong (a minor issue as George had said) and that they are putting the mount back together in perfect working order. I left with a beautifully looking and perfectly functioning mount no more than 2 hours after I walked in.
 
So there it is; A customer with an old product who isn’t looking to buy anything new, gets treated wonderfully by AP’s staff as they pulled out all the stops to make sure the issue was addressed immediately by Roland himself. That’s nothing short of astonishing and explains why Astro-Physics is the premier manufacturer they are.  
 
Lastly, I want to say to anyone to who is looking to buy something, and if there is a similar Astro-Physics product; Do yourself a favor, get the one made by Astro-Physics. You will never need to 2nd guess your purchase. You will have the pleasure to know that you bought the best of the best, and the confidence to know that the AP product is backed up by nothing short of exceptional customer service in the rare case you ever need it.
 
Thanks again to you and everyone at AP!"

Mark Walk


Re: We get some nice letters from our customers

steven ho
 

And that is why I buy AP's products in a nutshell.


From: ap-gto@... on behalf of chris1011@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 11:39 AM
To: ap-gto@...; ap-ug@...
Subject: [ap-gto] We get some nice letters from our customers
 
 

This is one from a person who visited us recently with a mount that didn't seem to work right. He asked us to post it to the user group:

"Daleen,
 
I want to thank you & Astro-Physics for what I believe was one of the finest examples of customer service that I was the ‘astonished' recipient of.
 
I was packing up for a week long observing trip to New Mexico and was testing my 1990’s vintage 400 mount 4 days before I was leaving. I know, 4 days before wasn’t the smartest time frame but I figured it would be a routine test because the mount had worked just fine for the past 20 plus years. So, I called Astro-Physics, was given to George, explained my situation and George said 'no problem we will get you all fixed up for your trip'. George coordinated a time with me where I could bring the mount to AP so Roland could check it out. I had just realized that there is a bright side to living in the Chicago Area; I could drive to Astro-Physics and be there in 1/1/2 hours!
 
The next morning I am standing in the front office of Astro-Physics and in walks Roland and Marj, My mount goes into the shop area and I started asking Daleen all kinds of questions about products and some of the equipment  that was in the front office area. Daleen was so pleasant to talk to. I figured I should stop bothering her because she has work to do. So I asked Daleen where  I can go close by to get some internet and coffee so I can work while I was waiting. Next thing I know, Daleen has me set up in the Astro-Physics conference room; with internet and coffee!
 
I felt like I was in a hospital waiting room waiting to hear from the Doctor about the delivery of a new baby. About an hour later the Doctor (Roland) walks into the room to tell what was wrong (a minor issue as George had said) and that they are putting the mount back together in perfect working order. I left with a beautifully looking and perfectly functioning mount no more than 2 hours after I walked in.
 
So there it is; A customer with an old product who isn’t looking to buy anything new, gets treated wonderfully by AP’s staff as they pulled out all the stops to make sure the issue was addressed immediately by Roland himself. That’s nothing short of astonishing and explains why Astro-Physics is the premier manufacturer they are.  
 
Lastly, I want to say to anyone to who is looking to buy something, and if there is a similar Astro-Physics product; Do yourself a favor, get the one made by Astro-Physics. You will never need to 2nd guess your purchase. You will have the pleasure to know that you bought the best of the best, and the confidence to know that the AP product is backed up by nothing short of exceptional customer service in the rare case you ever need it.
 
Thanks again to you and everyone at AP!"

Mark Walk


We get some nice letters from our customers

Roland Christen
 

This is one from a person who visited us recently with a mount that didn't seem to work right. He asked us to post it to the user group:

"Daleen,
 
I want to thank you & Astro-Physics for what I believe was one of the finest examples of customer service that I was the ‘astonished' recipient of.
 
I was packing up for a week long observing trip to New Mexico and was testing my 1990’s vintage 400 mount 4 days before I was leaving. I know, 4 days before wasn’t the smartest time frame but I figured it would be a routine test because the mount had worked just fine for the past 20 plus years. So, I called Astro-Physics, was given to George, explained my situation and George said 'no problem we will get you all fixed up for your trip'. George coordinated a time with me where I could bring the mount to AP so Roland could check it out. I had just realized that there is a bright side to living in the Chicago Area; I could drive to Astro-Physics and be there in 1/1/2 hours!
 
The next morning I am standing in the front office of Astro-Physics and in walks Roland and Marj, My mount goes into the shop area and I started asking Daleen all kinds of questions about products and some of the equipment  that was in the front office area. Daleen was so pleasant to talk to. I figured I should stop bothering her because she has work to do. So I asked Daleen where  I can go close by to get some internet and coffee so I can work while I was waiting. Next thing I know, Daleen has me set up in the Astro-Physics conference room; with internet and coffee!
 
I felt like I was in a hospital waiting room waiting to hear from the Doctor about the delivery of a new baby. About an hour later the Doctor (Roland) walks into the room to tell what was wrong (a minor issue as George had said) and that they are putting the mount back together in perfect working order. I left with a beautifully looking and perfectly functioning mount no more than 2 hours after I walked in.
 
So there it is; A customer with an old product who isn’t looking to buy anything new, gets treated wonderfully by AP’s staff as they pulled out all the stops to make sure the issue was addressed immediately by Roland himself. That’s nothing short of astonishing and explains why Astro-Physics is the premier manufacturer they are.  
 
Lastly, I want to say to anyone to who is looking to buy something, and if there is a similar Astro-Physics product; Do yourself a favor, get the one made by Astro-Physics. You will never need to 2nd guess your purchase. You will have the pleasure to know that you bought the best of the best, and the confidence to know that the AP product is backed up by nothing short of exceptional customer service in the rare case you ever need it.
 
Thanks again to you and everyone at AP!"

Mark Walk


Re: New file uploaded to ap-gto

Roland Christen
 


I had to reduce the sub frame exposures to less than 180 seconds to avoid totally washing out the details in the center of the galaxy.
My exposure of 600 sec produced a core reading of just under 64,000 with the QSI 683 chip. Processing of the image requires non-linear stretching to bring out the spiral arms without over-exposing the core. Also, maybe the 683 chip is not as sensitive as the one you are using?

Roland


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.hambrick@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...>
To: ap-gto
Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2019 1:21 am
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: New file uploaded to ap-gto



Geat image Roland !

I wanted to ask how you avoid overexposing the center of the galaxy using 600 second sub frames. I have taken images of M101 with my 180 EDT in my light polluted backyard in Texas as well as with your 175 EDF from the very dark sky location in Hawaii, and I found that from both locations I had to reduce the sub frame exposures to less than 180 seconds to avoid totally washing out the details in the center of the galaxy.

Are you doing something special in the image processing (stretching, etc) to get the detail in the center of the galaxy ?

My two biggest imaging challenges are getting good focus, and then manipulating the final stacked image to get the best overall image (in Maxim DL).



Re: New file uploaded to ap-gto

Roland Christen
 

Thank you Jim.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: thefamily90@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto
Sent: Wed, Jun 12, 2019 9:27 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: New file uploaded to ap-gto

What an absolutely Gorgeous image. The detail in M101 is astonishing! Well done young man, Very well done indeed,

Best,

Jim Phillips

------------------------------------
Posted by: thefamily90@...
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Re: APPM and All-Sky solves

Stephane Charbonnel
 

Hi Ray,

Thank you for your help (and your patience).

I will realize as soon as possible a new session with APPM and register all I can register even images with failed solving.

Regards
Stephane


Le jeu. 13 juin 2019 à 14:29, 'Ray Gralak (Groups)' groups3@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...> a écrit :
 

Hi Stephane,

> I don't think it is catalog because when I use PRiSM, I have
> better results with UCAC4 than with USNO A2 (yes in 5'
> x 5', you have about only stars brighter than mag 10 ;-) ).

That may be true for Prism but read these comments from the PinPoint author:

http://forums.dc3.com/showthread.php?4694-Downloading-and-Using-PinPoint-Reference-Catalogs-(Updated-May-2018)

Then take a look here about someone having a problem with UCAC4 and PinPoint:

http://forum.mainsequencesoftware.com/t/unable-to-solve-using-pinpoint-and-ucac4-catalog/2228

For fields larger than 15'x15' the GSC can be used. For smaller fields, USNO A2.0 is recommended.

>But in my case, it is no : 5' x 5' : even with parameters at maximum (image >scale tolerance at 80%),

If you know the image scale you should not increase image scale tolerance. That will only make solving slower and possibly unreliable.

> the spiral search takes ... less than one second
> (I thought well it was not my Ryzen 5 2600 which slow down computing

Previously you said PinPoint was taking a long time. That happens when PinPoint is doing a spiral search internally. When that happens it will almost always be faster for PinPoint to do the All-Sky solve to get the initial coordinates which PinPoint will then use to do a more accurate plate solve.

> About "max solve time" with APPM (so PinPoint), I don't understand this
> parameter : I don't understand PinPoint stops researchs before the limit
> time (the last time, I have time limit at 10 sec and the search has stopped
> at 0.689 sec

If PinPoint failed early then there should be an error message. What error message does APPM indicate was returned from PinPoint?

If you are having APPM save your failed images, can you zip a few of them along with the corresponding APPM log file and post or email me a dropbox link (or similar).

> one hour to produce a pointing model of 80 fields.

You should be able to solve about 2 images per minute with APPM (120/hour) if the download time is not too long. This is when using the option to use the last solution offset to for the following image.

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 12:55 AM
> To: ap-gto@...
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APPM and All-Sky solves
>
>
>
> Hi Ray,
>
>
> Because I spent a lot of time to understand parameters of PinPoint and APPM (This is the same), I think I have
> understood the failure of my solves.
>
> I don't think it is catalog because when I use PRiSM, I have better results with UCAC4 than with USNO A2 (yes in 5'
> x 5', you have about only stars brighter than mag 10 ;-) ).
>
>
>
> > (but I have already remarked such a solve is less accurate with these
> > two last solutions so I would like prefer 1/).
>
> Actually, that is incorrect. PinPoint will use the All-Sky coordinates as if APPM had originally given them to it,
> and then more accurately solve. Thus there is the same accuracy as if PinPoint had solved without having to use
> All-Sky coordinates. In effect this dramatically shortens what might have been a very long duration spiral search!
>
>
> My problem is here ! Your last remark is OK for classic instruments .... A medium - big field with refractor : in fact no
> problem, even with little search parameters on PinPoint, sucess is at each solving !
>
> But in my case, it is no : 5' x 5' : even with parameters at maximum (image scale tolerance at 80%), the spiral
> search takes ... less than one second (I thought well it was not my Ryzen 5 2600 which slow down computing ... and
> it is not a competitor SSD but a SSD). With a refractor, I let you imagine the failure when you slew from Zenith to
> 20° above horizon (As APPM makes at the beginning of session) or when you slew from East to West ... Yes, I have
> not the perfect optical tube, with 20' when I slew from West to East for example, but it is the only reason I use a
> pointing model and not to boast me the target must stay in a hole of 3 arcsec without guiding (I don't care this !) ...
>
>
> So when you write APPM uses a spiral search, it is the search of PinPoint and not APPM which calculates each
> time a new center of image in order to simulate a spiral. It works on PRiSM in about 2 seconds because I can define
> a limit of spiral search (time and often area) and it is software which calculates the spiral search ... About "max
> solve time" with APPM (so PinPoint), I don't understand this parameter : I don't understand PinPoint stops researchs
> before the limit time (the last time, I have time limit at 10 sec and the search has stopped at 0.689 sec ...).
>
> And why not to use all-Sky : because, even my 5'x5', the research time is about ... 100 to 150 sec ! Even with near
> coordinates center, with nova.astrometry.net (internet) or in local with ansvr. With 100 fields, I let you imagine time
> of model ... Sorry to compare, but with PRiSM, it takes only two seconds at each field and it works on 95% of case
> (without all-sky search type of astrometry.net) because this is the software which produce spiral search. But PRiSM
> produce a txt file that is wrote only for each field : theorcial coordinates (hour angle, dec) and the same in apparent
> coordinates so difficult to use at a APPM file ... Sorry to compare also with the simplicity of making model with my
> 10µ mount : in the mode "making pointing model", mount points a field and for each field pointed, if a sync telescope
> is send, it is the real center of image and so on ... moreover, pointing model is refined field after field so after 10
> fields, target is near the center of image and with the same little field for me (spectroscopical studies also), it takes
> one hour to produce a pointing model of 80 fields.
>
>
> But I'm going astray ... So, I am reduced to :
> 1/ use less than 20 fields for my pointing model, as now, I have produced in more one hour ... After all, as I auto-
> guide ...
> 2/ Spent a lot of time to try to make the long file of APPM with results sending by PRiSM (not sure of sucess).
> 3/ Ask you APPM makes spiral research instead PinPoint and respect max solve time.
>
> Please, don't forget : the pointing model is often here for "atypical" instruments and not for couple 16803 - FSQ 106
> !
>
> Regards
>
> Stephane
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): http://www.astro-
> physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc
> Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 8:39 AM
> > To: ap-gto@...
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APPM and All-Sky solves
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Ray,
> >
> > Thank you for your reply and your advice about USNO A2.0. I will change catalog.
> >
> > As I was a very old question for me, please, could you confirm I have fine understood :
> >
> > 1/ Even I don't check "Try ALL-Sky Plate solving if available", APPM configures PinPoint to do a spiral
> search until
> > "Max Solve Time" was reached ? (I didn't know that ... so if it is the case, please, add it in the already good
> help of
> > software).
> >
> > 2/ If I check "Try ALL-Sky Plate solving if available", APPM configures also PinPoint to do a spiral search ...
> But if it
> > fails after "Max Solve Time", APPM configures PinPoint in order to use the option one can find in Visual
> PinPoint for
> > using an ALL-Sky solution, as nova.astrometry.net by internet connection or local ansvr (but I have already
> > remarked such a solve is less accurate with these two last solutions so I would like prefer 1/).
> >
> > Regards
> > Stephane
> >
> >
> > Le mer. 12 juin 2019 à 05:06, 'Ray Gralak (Groups)' groups3@... [ap-gto] > gto@...> a
> > écrit :
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Stephane,
> >
> > > I have some questions about the "all-sky" of APPM..
> > > I use Pinpoint V6 for solving plate.
> > >
> > > My field is little : 5' x 5'. I use UCAC4 catalog.
> >
> > I don't think that's the right catalog for you to use for telescope pointing calculations because it only goes
> > down to magnitude 16 and no brighter than mag 10. I think you would be better served by USNO A2.0
> because it
> > goes deeper *and* also contains brighter stars.
> >
> > > But most of the time, solving is bad even "All-Sky Max Solve Time" is at 300 sec !
> > > (I think it will be more simple if APPM uses a spiral research in case of failure)
> >
> > It would be better if you use USNO A2.0. Also, APPM configures PinPoint to do a spiral search so you are
> > limited by the speed of PinPoint. It helps if you have a CPU with a high single thread performance and a
> fast SSD to
> > store the catalog.
> >
> > Also, if APPM solves a single all-sky image, images that follow it will solve much quicker if you enable the
> > option "Use last plate solve's offset as hint for next plate solve" in APPM.
> >
> > >> For good solving in all-Sky mode, I would like to know if I must check some
> > > boxes in (Visual) PinPoint ?
> >
> > Nope, that won't make any difference. I think you just need a more appropriate sky catalog.
> >
> > > > Why must I to have an internet connection ?
> >
> > Nope, you don't need an internet connection.
> >
> > > Pinpoint doesn't work on All-sky without internet connection ?
> >
> > Sure, PinPoint can work all-sky without and internet connection. You can define the IP address and port of
> > your local machine, but you must setup your own all-sky solution (there are a couple available). Just do an
> internet
> > search for PinPoint+AllSky.
> >
> > -Ray Gralak
> > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): http://www.astro-
> > physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc
> > Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
> > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 9:14 AM
> > > To: ap-gto@...
> > > Subject: [ap-gto] APPM and All-Sky solves
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello Ray,
> > >
> > >
> > > I have some questions about the "all-sky" of APPM..
> > > I use Pinpoint V6 for solving plate.
> > >
> > > My field is little : 5' x 5'. I use UCAC4 catalog.
> > >
> > > So, for some (a lot of) extremal fields, solving is not directly possible with such a little field. With my
> > planetarium
> > > software (PRiSM), solve is quick from a depart point and a spiral resolution with internal resolution but
> text
> > file of
> > > APPM's measures is too technical and so too long to reproduce ...
> > > So, for couple APPM / PinPoint v6 : I must use "Try All-Sky Plate Solving if available" if I want hope to
> > solve about
> > > half of fields. But most of the time, solving is bad even "All-Sky Max Solve Time" is at 300 sec ! (I think it
> > will be
> > > more simple if APPM uses a spiral research in case of failure)
> > > In fact, I try to understand why with APPM/PinPoint V6, all-sky solving is very long and most of cases
> bad,
> > and why
> > > with the same image and with PRiSM, all-sky solving is fast and good in more 90% of cases ...
> > >
> > > For good solving in all-Sky mode, I would like to know if I must check some boxes in (Visual) PinPoint ? I
> > don't think
> > > because it is independant ...
> > > Why must I to have an internet connection ? Pinpoint doesn't work on All-sky without internet connection
> ?
> > So
> > > Pinpoint always uses Astrometry.net in all-sky mode or all-sky mode can be used with PinPoint and
> without
> > > Astrometry.net ?
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Stephane
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>


Re: APPM and All-Sky solves

Ray Gralak
 

Hi Stephane,

I don't think it is catalog because when I use PRiSM, I have
better results with UCAC4 than with USNO A2 (yes in 5'
x 5', you have about only stars brighter than mag 10 ;-) ).
That may be true for Prism but read these comments from the PinPoint author:

http://forums.dc3.com/showthread.php?4694-Downloading-and-Using-PinPoint-Reference-Catalogs-(Updated-May-2018)

Then take a look here about someone having a problem with UCAC4 and PinPoint:

http://forum.mainsequencesoftware.com/t/unable-to-solve-using-pinpoint-and-ucac4-catalog/2228

For fields larger than 15'x15' the GSC can be used. For smaller fields, USNO A2.0 is recommended.

But in my case, it is no : 5' x 5' : even with parameters at maximum (image >scale tolerance at 80%),
If you know the image scale you should not increase image scale tolerance. That will only make solving slower and possibly unreliable.

the spiral search takes ... less than one second
(I thought well it was not my Ryzen 5 2600 which slow down computing
Previously you said PinPoint was taking a long time. That happens when PinPoint is doing a spiral search internally. When that happens it will almost always be faster for PinPoint to do the All-Sky solve to get the initial coordinates which PinPoint will then use to do a more accurate plate solve.

About "max solve time" with APPM (so PinPoint), I don't understand this
parameter : I don't understand PinPoint stops researchs before the limit
time (the last time, I have time limit at 10 sec and the search has stopped
at 0.689 sec
If PinPoint failed early then there should be an error message. What error message does APPM indicate was returned from PinPoint?

If you are having APPM save your failed images, can you zip a few of them along with the corresponding APPM log file and post or email me a dropbox link (or similar).

one hour to produce a pointing model of 80 fields.
You should be able to solve about 2 images per minute with APPM (120/hour) if the download time is not too long. This is when using the option to use the last solution offset to for the following image.

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 12:55 AM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APPM and All-Sky solves



Hi Ray,


Because I spent a lot of time to understand parameters of PinPoint and APPM (This is the same), I think I have
understood the failure of my solves.

I don't think it is catalog because when I use PRiSM, I have better results with UCAC4 than with USNO A2 (yes in 5'
x 5', you have about only stars brighter than mag 10 ;-) ).



> (but I have already remarked such a solve is less accurate with these
> two last solutions so I would like prefer 1/).

Actually, that is incorrect. PinPoint will use the All-Sky coordinates as if APPM had originally given them to it,
and then more accurately solve. Thus there is the same accuracy as if PinPoint had solved without having to use
All-Sky coordinates. In effect this dramatically shortens what might have been a very long duration spiral search!


My problem is here ! Your last remark is OK for classic instruments ... A medium - big field with refractor : in fact no
problem, even with little search parameters on PinPoint, sucess is at each solving !

But in my case, it is no : 5' x 5' : even with parameters at maximum (image scale tolerance at 80%), the spiral
search takes ... less than one second (I thought well it was not my Ryzen 5 2600 which slow down computing ... and
it is not a competitor SSD but a SSD). With a refractor, I let you imagine the failure when you slew from Zenith to
20° above horizon (As APPM makes at the beginning of session) or when you slew from East to West ... Yes, I have
not the perfect optical tube, with 20' when I slew from West to East for example, but it is the only reason I use a
pointing model and not to boast me the target must stay in a hole of 3 arcsec without guiding (I don't care this !) ...


So when you write APPM uses a spiral search, it is the search of PinPoint and not APPM which calculates each
time a new center of image in order to simulate a spiral. It works on PRiSM in about 2 seconds because I can define
a limit of spiral search (time and often area) and it is software which calculates the spiral search ... About "max
solve time" with APPM (so PinPoint), I don't understand this parameter : I don't understand PinPoint stops researchs
before the limit time (the last time, I have time limit at 10 sec and the search has stopped at 0.689 sec ...).

And why not to use all-Sky : because, even my 5'x5', the research time is about ... 100 to 150 sec ! Even with near
coordinates center, with nova.astrometry.net (internet) or in local with ansvr. With 100 fields, I let you imagine time
of model ... Sorry to compare, but with PRiSM, it takes only two seconds at each field and it works on 95% of case
(without all-sky search type of astrometry.net) because this is the software which produce spiral search. But PRiSM
produce a txt file that is wrote only for each field : theorcial coordinates (hour angle, dec) and the same in apparent
coordinates so difficult to use at a APPM file ... Sorry to compare also with the simplicity of making model with my
10µ mount : in the mode "making pointing model", mount points a field and for each field pointed, if a sync telescope
is send, it is the real center of image and so on ... moreover, pointing model is refined field after field so after 10
fields, target is near the center of image and with the same little field for me (spectroscopical studies also), it takes
one hour to produce a pointing model of 80 fields.


But I'm going astray ... So, I am reduced to :
1/ use less than 20 fields for my pointing model, as now, I have produced in more one hour ... After all, as I auto-
guide ...
2/ Spent a lot of time to try to make the long file of APPM with results sending by PRiSM (not sure of sucess).
3/ Ask you APPM makes spiral research instead PinPoint and respect max solve time.

Please, don't forget : the pointing model is often here for "atypical" instruments and not for couple 16803 - FSQ 106
!

Regards

Stephane






-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): http://www.astro-
physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 8:39 AM
> To: ap-gto@...
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APPM and All-Sky solves
>
>
>
> Hi Ray,
>
> Thank you for your reply and your advice about USNO A2.0. I will change catalog.
>
> As I was a very old question for me, please, could you confirm I have fine understood :
>
> 1/ Even I don't check "Try ALL-Sky Plate solving if available", APPM configures PinPoint to do a spiral
search until
> "Max Solve Time" was reached ? (I didn't know that ... so if it is the case, please, add it in the already good
help of
> software).
>
> 2/ If I check "Try ALL-Sky Plate solving if available", APPM configures also PinPoint to do a spiral search ...
But if it
> fails after "Max Solve Time", APPM configures PinPoint in order to use the option one can find in Visual
PinPoint for
> using an ALL-Sky solution, as nova.astrometry.net by internet connection or local ansvr (but I have already
> remarked such a solve is less accurate with these two last solutions so I would like prefer 1/).
>
> Regards
> Stephane
>
>
> Le mer. 12 juin 2019 à 05:06, 'Ray Gralak (Groups)' groups3@... [ap-gto] <ap-
gto@...> a
> écrit :
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Stephane,
>
> > I have some questions about the "all-sky" of APPM.
> > I use Pinpoint V6 for solving plate.
> >
> > My field is little : 5' x 5'. I use UCAC4 catalog.
>
> I don't think that's the right catalog for you to use for telescope pointing calculations because it only goes
> down to magnitude 16 and no brighter than mag 10. I think you would be better served by USNO A2.0
because it
> goes deeper *and* also contains brighter stars.
>
> > But most of the time, solving is bad even "All-Sky Max Solve Time" is at 300 sec !
> > (I think it will be more simple if APPM uses a spiral research in case of failure)
>
> It would be better if you use USNO A2.0. Also, APPM configures PinPoint to do a spiral search so you are
> limited by the speed of PinPoint. It helps if you have a CPU with a high single thread performance and a
fast SSD to
> store the catalog.
>
> Also, if APPM solves a single all-sky image, images that follow it will solve much quicker if you enable the
> option "Use last plate solve's offset as hint for next plate solve" in APPM.
>
> >> For good solving in all-Sky mode, I would like to know if I must check some
> > boxes in (Visual) PinPoint ?
>
> Nope, that won't make any difference. I think you just need a more appropriate sky catalog.
>
> > > Why must I to have an internet connection ?
>
> Nope, you don't need an internet connection.
>
> > Pinpoint doesn't work on All-sky without internet connection ?
>
> Sure, PinPoint can work all-sky without and internet connection. You can define the IP address and port of
> your local machine, but you must setup your own all-sky solution (there are a couple available). Just do an
internet
> search for PinPoint+AllSky.
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): http://www.astro-
> physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc
> Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 9:14 AM
> > To: ap-gto@...
> > Subject: [ap-gto] APPM and All-Sky solves
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello Ray,
> >
> >
> > I have some questions about the "all-sky" of APPM.
> > I use Pinpoint V6 for solving plate.
> >
> > My field is little : 5' x 5'. I use UCAC4 catalog.
> >
> > So, for some (a lot of) extremal fields, solving is not directly possible with such a little field. With my
> planetarium
> > software (PRiSM), solve is quick from a depart point and a spiral resolution with internal resolution but
text
> file of
> > APPM's measures is too technical and so too long to reproduce ...
> > So, for couple APPM / PinPoint v6 : I must use "Try All-Sky Plate Solving if available" if I want hope to
> solve about
> > half of fields. But most of the time, solving is bad even "All-Sky Max Solve Time" is at 300 sec ! (I think it
> will be
> > more simple if APPM uses a spiral research in case of failure)
> > In fact, I try to understand why with APPM/PinPoint V6, all-sky solving is very long and most of cases
bad,
> and why
> > with the same image and with PRiSM, all-sky solving is fast and good in more 90% of cases ...
> >
> > For good solving in all-Sky mode, I would like to know if I must check some boxes in (Visual) PinPoint ? I
> don't think
> > because it is independant ...
> > Why must I to have an internet connection ? Pinpoint doesn't work on All-sky without internet connection
?
> So
> > Pinpoint always uses Astrometry.net in all-sky mode or all-sky mode can be used with PinPoint and
without
> > Astrometry.net ?
> >
> > Regards
> > Stephane
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>




Spring loaded motors on an AP Mach1GTO

neil6536
 

Please excuse the naive question. How do I tell if the motors on my MACH1GTO are spring loaded? Is there more than one version of the motor system on these mounts, and is there an external indication of the difference? Or can it be determined from the shipping date?
Thanks,
Neil



Re: APPM and All-Sky solves

Stephane Charbonnel
 

Hi Ray,

I my second paragraph, I have wrote "refactor" but the instrument I use is a reflector.

I have tried to do plate solve with all-sky (an image with bad coordinates) and time of solve has changed ... 40 seconds now so it is more acceptable (two years ago I have 100 to 150 seconds). However, I think APPM could make itself the spiral search until Max time is reached but time of all-sky is now reasonable so I will try to make a big pointing model as soon as it is possible ...

Regards
Stephane


Le jeu. 13 juin 2019 à 09:55, Stephane CHARBONNEL <scharbonnel949@...> a écrit :
Hi Ray,

Because I spent a lot of time to understand parameters of PinPoint and APPM (This is the same), I think I have understood the failure of my solves.

I don't think it is catalog because when I use PRiSM, I have better results with UCAC4 than with USNO A2 (yes in 5' x 5', you have about only stars brighter than mag 10 ;-) ).


> (but I have already remarked such a solve is less accurate with these
> two last solutions so I would like prefer 1/).

Actually, that is incorrect. PinPoint will use the All-Sky coordinates as if APPM had originally given them to it, and then more accurately solve. Thus there is the same accuracy as if PinPoint had solved without having to use All-Sky coordinates. In effect this dramatically shortens what might have been a very long duration spiral search!

My problem is here ! Your last remark is OK for classic instruments ... A medium - big field with refractor : in fact no problem, even with little search parameters on PinPoint, sucess is at each solving !

But in my case, it is no : 5' x 5' : even with parameters at maximum (image scale tolerance at 80%), the spiral search takes ... less than one second (I thought well it was not my Ryzen 5 2600 which slow down computing ... and it is not a competitor SSD but a SSD). With a refractor, I let you imagine the failure when you slew from Zenith to 20° above horizon (As APPM makes at the beginning of session) or when you slew from East to West ... Yes, I have not the perfect optical tube, with 20' when I slew from West to East for example, but it is the only reason I use a pointing model and not to boast me the target must stay in a hole of 3 arcsec without guiding (I don't care this !) ...

So when you write APPM uses a spiral search, it is the search of PinPoint and not APPM which calculates each time a new center of image in order to simulate a spiral. It works on PRiSM in about 2 seconds because I can define a limit of spiral search (time and often area) and it is software which calculates the spiral search ... About "max solve time" with APPM (so PinPoint), I don't understand this parameter : I don't understand PinPoint stops researchs before the limit time (the last time, I have time limit at 10 sec and the search has stopped at 0.689 sec ...).

And why not to use all-Sky : because, even my 5'x5', the research time is about ... 100 to 150 sec ! Even with near coordinates center, with nova.astrometry.net (internet) or in local with ansvr. With 100 fields, I let you imagine time of model ... Sorry to compare, but with PRiSM, it takes only two seconds at each field and it works on 95% of case (without all-sky search type of astrometry.net) because this is the software which produce spiral search. But PRiSM produce a txt file that is wrote only for each field : theorcial coordinates (hour angle, dec) and the same in apparent coordinates so difficult to use at a APPM file ... Sorry to compare also with the simplicity of making model with my 10µ mount : in the mode "making pointing model", mount points a field and for each field pointed, if a sync telescope is send, it is the real center of image and so on ... moreover, pointing model is refined field after field so after 10 fields, target is near the center of image and with the same little field for me (spectroscopical studies also), it takes one hour to produce a pointing model of 80 fields.

But I'm going astray ... So, I am reduced to :
1/ use less than 20 fields for my pointing model, as now, I have produced in more one hour ... After all, as I auto-guide ...
2/ Spent a lot of time to try to make the long file of APPM with results sending by PRiSM (not sure of sucess).
3/ Ask you APPM makes spiral research instead PinPoint and respect max solve time.

Please, don't forget : the pointing model is often here for "atypical" instruments and not for couple 16803 - FSQ 106 !

Regards
Stephane


 


-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 8:39 AM
> To: ap-gto@...
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APPM and All-Sky solves
>
>
>
> Hi Ray,
>
> Thank you for your reply and your advice about USNO A2.0. I will change catalog.
>
> As I was a very old question for me, please, could you confirm I have fine understood :
>
> 1/ Even I don't check "Try ALL-Sky Plate solving if available", APPM configures PinPoint to do a spiral search until
> "Max Solve Time" was reached ? (I didn't know that ... so if it is the case, please, add it in the already good help of
> software).
>
> 2/ If I check "Try ALL-Sky Plate solving if available", APPM configures also PinPoint to do a spiral search ... But if it
> fails after "Max Solve Time", APPM configures PinPoint in order to use the option one can find in Visual PinPoint for
> using an ALL-Sky solution, as nova.astrometry.net by internet connection or local ansvr (but I have already
> remarked such a solve is less accurate with these two last solutions so I would like prefer 1/).
>
> Regards
> Stephane
>
>
> Le mer. 12 juin 2019 à 05:06, 'Ray Gralak (Groups)' groups3@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...> a
> écrit :
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Stephane,
>
> > I have some questions about the "all-sky" of APPM.
> > I use Pinpoint V6 for solving plate.
> >
> > My field is little : 5' x 5'. I use UCAC4 catalog.
>
> I don't think that's the right catalog for you to use for telescope pointing calculations because it only goes
> down to magnitude 16 and no brighter than mag 10. I think you would be better served by USNO A2.0 because it
> goes deeper *and* also contains brighter stars.
>
> > But most of the time, solving is bad even "All-Sky Max Solve Time" is at 300 sec !
> > (I think it will be more simple if APPM uses a spiral research in case of failure)
>
> It would be better if you use USNO A2.0. Also, APPM configures PinPoint to do a spiral search so you are
> limited by the speed of PinPoint. It helps if you have a CPU with a high single thread performance and a fast SSD to
> store the catalog.
>
> Also, if APPM solves a single all-sky image, images that follow it will solve much quicker if you enable the
> option "Use last plate solve's offset as hint for next plate solve" in APPM.
>
> >> For good solving in all-Sky mode, I would like to know if I must check some
> > boxes in (Visual) PinPoint ?
>
> Nope, that won't make any difference. I think you just need a more appropriate sky catalog.
>
> > > Why must I to have an internet connection ?
>
> Nope, you don't need an internet connection.
>
> > Pinpoint doesn't work on All-sky without internet connection ?
>
> Sure, PinPoint can work all-sky without and internet connection. You can define the IP address and port of
> your local machine, but you must setup your own all-sky solution (there are a couple available). Just do an internet
> search for PinPoint+AllSky.
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): http://www.astro-
> physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc
> Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 9:14 AM
> > To: ap-gto@...
> > Subject: [ap-gto] APPM and All-Sky solves
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello Ray,
> >
> >
> > I have some questions about the "all-sky" of APPM.
> > I use Pinpoint V6 for solving plate.
> >
> > My field is little : 5' x 5'. I use UCAC4 catalog.
> >
> > So, for some (a lot of) extremal fields, solving is not directly possible with such a little field. With my
> planetarium
> > software (PRiSM), solve is quick from a depart point and a spiral resolution with internal resolution but text
> file of
> > APPM's measures is too technical and so too long to reproduce ...
> > So, for couple APPM / PinPoint v6 : I must use "Try All-Sky Plate Solving if available" if I want hope to
> solve about
> > half of fields. But most of the time, solving is bad even "All-Sky Max Solve Time" is at 300 sec ! (I think it
> will be
> > more simple if APPM uses a spiral research in case of failure)
> > In fact, I try to understand why with APPM/PinPoint V6, all-sky solving is very long and most of cases bad,
> and why
> > with the same image and with PRiSM, all-sky solving is fast and good in more 90% of cases ...
> >
> > For good solving in all-Sky mode, I would like to know if I must check some boxes in (Visual) PinPoint ? I
> don't think
> > because it is independant ...
> > Why must I to have an internet connection ? Pinpoint doesn't work on All-sky without internet connection ?
> So
> > Pinpoint always uses Astrometry.net in all-sky mode or all-sky mode can be used with PinPoint and without
> > Astrometry.net ?
> >
> > Regards
> > Stephane
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>