Date   

Re: HELP! Mount is lost - how to recover

Roland Christen
 

Let me put it another way:

If you simply shut down the mount at the end of your session, do not park it in a specific spot, and tear everything down without regard to where the two axes are pointing, then you will have to do a fresh Restart for the next session. You will have to go thru the start procedure, manually place your mount in some known position (either a park or aimed at a known object) and tell the mount where it's pointing. That procedure erases all previous info that the mount stored - it is a basic fresh start of a new setup and to my mind is more trouble and can be prone to user error.

An easier way at the end of your session is to send your mount to a known park position that you can re-create next time you set up, and park it there and turn off power. Your keypad can be set to Autoconnect = YES and the next time you set up, just manually place the scope back in that position (via the clutches), turn power on and you are ready to go. No input needed from you, the mount already knows where it is.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: chris1011@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto
Sent: Mon, Aug 6, 2018 3:51 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: HELP! Mount is lost - how to recover




re-initialization of the mount. 
What do you mean by re-initializing the mount? If you mean simply "Resume from Last Position", you have done nothing to change the bogus info. If you mean "Start a new fresh Start", then you have to put in the information of where your scope is pointing and thus telling the servo that this is where you want to start from and to ignore all previous stored info. That's a fresh re-start of a new setup. That is not what I was answering in the first couple of posts where the mount is lost in a remote situation, or it is lost while the user is right there at the mount. I gave clear instructions how to recover from that. I did not address having a lost mount, shutting it down and hoping that the next startup everything would clear away automatically.

Every time you turn power off, the servo controller stores all the position information of the axes and every time you turn power back on the mount re-initializes using that info in the startup routine (either manual or Autoconnect). It does not automatically correct for bogus info that may reside if you shut down without fixing the problem. However you can always do a fresh setup start whereby you insert the correct position manually (restart from Park1,2,3 or 4) if you wish. The servo then throws away all previous position information and gobbles up whatever new info that you feed to it. It is a bit more trouble to do that every time and is prone to user error. Personally I like to do it the easy way.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: stephenjwinston@... [ap-gto] gto@...>
To: ap-gto gto@...>
Sent: Mon, Aug 6, 2018 3:05 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: HELP! Mount is lost - how to recover



Just trying to understand how the last mount position and sync state affects the next power-cycle / initialization of the mount.

Everything I had seen in the use of my mount seemed to indicate that the last mount position / sync state can be corrected (if needed) by doing a power cycle and a re-initialization of the mount.  

Your statement that the last bogus information is remembered by the CP4/CP3 unit confused me.  But maybe that bogus information is only problematic if you don't actually do a clean re-initialization? (e.g. if you just resume from last park position #0 or just power up and try to keep going without doing any re-initialization)






Re: HELP! Mount is lost - how to recover

Roland Christen
 


re-initialization of the mount. 
What do you mean by re-initializing the mount? If you mean simply "Resume from Last Position", you have done nothing to change the bogus info. If you mean "Start a new fresh Start", then you have to put in the information of where your scope is pointing and thus telling the servo that this is where you want to start from and to ignore all previous stored info. That's a fresh re-start of a new setup. That is not what I was answering in the first couple of posts where the mount is lost in a remote situation, or it is lost while the user is right there at the mount. I gave clear instructions how to recover from that. I did not address having a lost mount, shutting it down and hoping that the next startup everything would clear away automatically.

Every time you turn power off, the servo controller stores all the position information of the axes and every time you turn power back on the mount re-initializes using that info in the startup routine (either manual or Autoconnect). It does not automatically correct for bogus info that may reside if you shut down without fixing the problem. However you can always do a fresh setup start whereby you insert the correct position manually (restart from Park1,2,3 or 4) if you wish. The servo then throws away all previous position information and gobbles up whatever new info that you feed to it. It is a bit more trouble to do that every time and is prone to user error. Personally I like to do it the easy way.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: stephenjwinston@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto
Sent: Mon, Aug 6, 2018 3:05 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: HELP! Mount is lost - how to recover



Just trying to understand how the last mount position and sync state affects the next power-cycle / initialization of the mount.

Everything I had seen in the use of my mount seemed to indicate that the last mount position / sync state can be corrected (if needed) by doing a power cycle and a re-initialization of the mount.  

Your statement that the last bogus information is remembered by the CP4/CP3 unit confused me.  But maybe that bogus information is only problematic if you don't actually do a clean re-initialization? (e.g. if you just resume from last park position #0 or just power up and try to keep going without doing any re-initialization)




Re: HELP! Mount is lost - how to recover

Stephen Winston
 

Just trying to understand how the last mount position and sync state affects the next power-cycle / initialization of the mount.

Everything I had seen in the use of my mount seemed to indicate that the last mount position / sync state can be corrected (if needed) by doing a power cycle and a re-initialization of the mount.  

Your statement that the last bogus information is remembered by the CP4/CP3 unit confused me.  But maybe that bogus information is only problematic if you don't actually do a clean re-initialization? (e.g. if you just resume from last park position #0 or just power up and try to keep going without doing any re-initialization)


Re: HELP! Mount is lost - how to recover

Roland Christen
 

Why would you do that?

I think I was pretty clear on how to recover from a lost mount, and I'm not sure what you are asking or trying to recover from.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: stephenjwinston@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto
Sent: Mon, Aug 6, 2018 12:57 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: HELP! Mount is lost - how to recover



So if instead of loosening the clutches and physically moving the mount to the park position, I instead moved it to the park position using the hand-controller or the ASCOM interface on my laptop, then followed my start-up routine, this would cause problems?





Is sync/Rcal info stored from session to session?

Eduardo Oliveira
 

Hi everyone,


I am sorry if this is answered somewhere else, but I could not find using Yahoo search engine. I am using APCC (standard version) and AP V2 Ascom driver with my Mach1 GTO CP4 mount. I use CdC and Astrophotography tools to point the telescope to targets. What I usually do is to send a Goto++ command in APT. This uses plate solve to iteratively put the telescope within X pixels of my target (X being the error threshold that I can configure to accept). When the target is at the center of the FOV I then issue a sync command which I presume will be translated into Rcal command to the controller since I have "Use Rcal for Syncs" option enabled at AP V2 Ascom driver. In a typical session I can issue between 3 to five sync commands for different targets or stars I use for focusing the scope. My question is: Do these sync commands improve the pointing accuracy of the mount on subsequent slews? Does this "pointing model" that is created with the multiple sync commands during one session remains available when I power down the mount and initiate a new session next day (assuming of course I did not loosened the clutches)?


Thank you all,


Eduardo


Re: HELP! Mount is lost - how to recover

Stephen Winston
 

So if instead of loosening the clutches and physically moving the mount to the park position, I instead moved it to the park position using the hand-controller or the ASCOM interface on my laptop, then followed my start-up routine, this would cause problems?



Re: HELP! Mount is lost - how to recover

Roland Christen
 

The response was for remoter setups, so that does not apply to you where you change the clutch versus gearwheel orientations. The CP3 with current firmware operates the same as the CP4 as far as being able to go home with APCC in a remote setup.

However, since you don't have a remote setup this does not apply to you, and your method works ok IF you are careful to sync with telescope above counterweights AND do not sync on the wrong object. Syncing on the wrong object is also a good way to get the mount lost.

Foolproof way to start the mount up in your case is to assemble the mount, loosen the clutches, place the mount in a known park position and start the keypad from that park position. Then use GoTo to send the mount to the first object, center and recal. However, if this is a bit too much punching of buttons, your method will also work with the above cautions.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: stephenjwinston@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto
Sent: Mon, Aug 6, 2018 12:23 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: HELP! Mount is lost - how to recover



>Every time you power cycle you cement into the CP4 servo the bogus information that caused it to get lost in the first place.

Is different for CP3 mounts?  The reason I ask:  

- My mount is CP3 and being mobile it gets setup and torn down a lot.  
- At the end of a nights' imaging session I usually park it in park #3. but sometimes I just power down wherever it current is pointing (e.g. if it clouds over and looks like rain :).  
- When being torn down/set up again, the clutches are loosened, so whatever the stored position CP3 had is lost.  
- To start up, I physically rotate the scope to park #1, tighten the clutches, power the mount, move to a known star (other side of mount, cwd down), and SYNC.  

This has always worked for me, so whatever stored position the mount might have had when I powered down doesn't seem to impact anything when I start up again, as long as I do a full start-up (in my case a SYNC, but I guess I could also do a resume from known park position and a RCAL).

thanks,

Steve





Re: HELP! Mount is lost - how to recover

Stephen Winston
 

>Every time you power cycle you cement into the CP4 servo the bogus information that caused it to get lost in the first place.

Is different for CP3 mounts?  The reason I ask:  

- My mount is CP3 and being mobile it gets setup and torn down a lot.  
- At the end of a nights' imaging session I usually park it in park #3. but sometimes I just power down wherever it current is pointing (e.g. if it clouds over and looks like rain :).  
- When being torn down/set up again, the clutches are loosened, so whatever the stored position CP3 had is lost.  
- To start up, I physically rotate the scope to park #1, tighten the clutches, power the mount, move to a known star (other side of mount, cwd down), and SYNC.  

This has always worked for me, so whatever stored position the mount might have had when I powered down doesn't seem to impact anything when I start up again, as long as I do a full start-up (in my case a SYNC, but I guess I could also do a resume from known park position and a RCAL).

thanks,

Steve



Re: HELP! Mount is lost - how to recover

Roland Christen
 

Every time you power cycle you cement into the CP4 servo the bogus information that caused it to get lost in the first place. For instance, if you told the mount that it was pointing at the Moon by Syncing on the Moon, but it was really pointing at you local water tower, then no matter how many times you power cycle, that water tower is the Moon as far as the servo is concerned.

For remote users who are not using APCC, the best way will be to simply figure out where the scope is pointing by doing a plate solve (all sky or whatever is needed) and doing a recal on that point. That should let you recover from any situation, even with counterweights up. If you Sync with counterweights up, then you have redefined the counterweights as the scope and vice versa, so DON'T sync on any object unless you know the scope is above the mount and counterweights are below.

Now, if you're really savvy, you will add APCC to your remote setup and you will be able to send the mount to the internal HOME position no matter how lost you are. Just press HOME and the mount will go there and recalibrate itself. Simple, easy-peasy, no muss, no fuss and you are good to go.

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: stephenjwinston@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto
Sent: Mon, Aug 6, 2018 11:44 am
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: HELP! Mount is lost - how to recover



If you are remote, what it the recommended recovery?

Would the following work: 
- Power cycle mount, move scope to star on opposite side of mount, SYNC and carry on?
Or maybe:
- Move mount to known park position, power cycle mount, resume from park, slew to star and RCAL






Re: HELP! Mount is lost - how to recover

Stephen Winston
 

If you are remote, what it the recommended recovery?

Would the following work: 
- Power cycle mount, move scope to star on opposite side of mount, SYNC and carry on?
Or maybe:
- Move mount to known park position, power cycle mount, resume from park, slew to star and RCAL




HELP! Mount is lost - how to recover

Roland Christen
 

Hi Astronuts,

If you ever do an errant sync with the counterweights above the scope and subsequent slews try to run the scope into the pier, DON'T PANIC. There is a simple easy way to recover.

Simply loosen the clutches on both axes, hold onto the scope and send the mount to Park3. Once the motors have stopped turning, simply place the scope manually in the Park3 position, tighten the clutches and proceed on your way as if nothing had happened. Your next slew might be off a bit, depending on how accurate you set the park position, but you can then center the object via the buttons and press Recal. Now you are fully calibrated again.

Note: you didn't have to cycle power or do any gymnastics (stand on your head and clap 3 times) or anything else fancy or confusing.

Rolando


Re: Another APCC question

Dale Ghent
 

On Aug 3, 2018, at 8:35 AM, 'Ray Gralak (Groups)' groups3@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...> wrote:

In that regard, I agree that the AP V2 driver documentation and user feedback should be more clear. The only place that you can
change Lat/Long is in the AP V2 setup dialog, which is usually run when the driver is not connected. And in the help section for
"Initialization Setup" it states that most of the options (including "Set Latitude/Longitude") apply only when the mount is
initialized. I think a more straight forward statement there is needed.

https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver/help/initialization_setup.htm
Yeah it essentially says that, but it could be clearer for sure.

However your thought about applying Lat/Long from a "known" parked position may be possible. I will talk this over with Howard to
see if there is a "safe" way that this can be done.
If you two could make that happen, it would certainly push me (at least) over the edge on making the CP3 (Rev O) -> CP4 jump. Due to living under a light dome and having poor sight lines to the sky around my house, I'm stuck having to be mobile for any viewing/imaging except for solar. Between the different club sites or places I go camping, any improvement in flexibility and ease regarding Location setup would be a big deal.

The subject must have released the gremlins, as just this past weekend I spent an hour trying to figure out a location issue that my CP3/Mach1 started experiencing after I had to switch batteries, which of course meant the mount had to be powered down momentarily. When I brought the CP3 back online with the new battery, the driver could not change the lat/long *at all* and the mount was stuck at 0/0 for its lat/long:

http://i.imgur.com/eKA8Xqd.png

After an hour of repeatedly power-cylcing the CP3 and trying to get the driver to initialize the it with the right lat/long for my site's preset, the problem persisted. Eventually, I gave up and dug out the hand controller, inputted the site's lat/long into a location slot and was able to set it that way.

Thanks again for the feedback, Dale!
Thank you for looking into this!

/dale


Re: Fist session with Mach1

Darrell Betts
 

Ray

APCC worked for a while, then I just had no end of trouble. It was not running how I expected. So I decided to reinstall following your instructions.  I am pleased to say it is now working. Again.  And probably better.

I have changed some of the settings you suggested back to the way they are in the manual to include the auto initialisation.

Now it is working how I expected it would.

Thanks very much.
Darrell


Re: Can I bring the CP4 into the house

steven ho
 

Thankfully I did not attempt to bring the CP4 into the house and I have Horizons working properly with the Ephemeris data from JPL.


My observatory can't be built soon enough.


thanks

steve




From: ap-gto@... on behalf of 'Christopher Erickson' christopher.k.erickson@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Monday, August 6, 2018 6:54 AM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: RE: [ap-gto] Can I bring the CP4 into the house
 
 

Of course Roland is correct!
 
Just don't move controllers BETWEEN mounts and run the motors, or the PEM curves will be either wrong or out of sync.
 
 
-Christopher Erickson
Observatory engineer
Summit Kinetics
Waikoloa, HI 96738
www.summitkinetics.com
www.summitkinetics.com
Sorry, your browser does not support frames. Please go to http://www.data-plumber.com/summitkinetics. Powered by Dyn WebHop URL Forwarding Engine. Dyn


 


From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2018 3:37 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Can I bring the CP4 into the house

It will just go into Motor Stall if it senses no motors turning.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Erickson christopher.k.erickson@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto
Sent: Thu, Aug 2, 2018 7:10 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Can I bring the CP4 into the house



If you stop tracking before shutting down and make sure tracking is stopped for the entire indoor session and is stopped until the motors are reconnected, you won't lose your PEM tracking synchronization with the RA worm drive assembly. Otherwise you will have to rebuild your PEM curve.


-Christopher Erickson
Observatory engineer
Waikoloa, HI 96738
www.summitkinetics.com
   

On Thu, Aug 2, 2018, 1:34 PM stevenhoffman53@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...> wrote:


Can I bring the CP4 into the house (power it and connect via USB) and fiddle with the horizons without having the motors attached.
Because it's going to rain and would rather not have everything outside.

Thanks!!
steve






Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: Finally an image to share

Eduardo Oliveira
 

Great work!!! Congratulations!!

Eduardo

Em dom, 5 de ago de 2018 às 17:31, Bill Long bill@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...> escreveu:

 

Finally had a chance to get some more data.


https://astrob.in/full/358717/F/

At close to 6 hours now. The AP1100 has performed remarkably well. Last two sessions I was around 0.3-0.4" RMS guiding, using PEM Pro 3 for polar alignment. More to come when the OIII data kicks off.





From: Bill Long <bill@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 3:10 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Finally an image to share
 

Hello all,


Wanted to share a project I finally have in flight. I swear troubleshooting (things unrelated to my mount) this summer has been such a time sink for me. Anyhow, here is the current state of the data:


https://www.astrobin.com/full/358717/0/


Only 2 hours of HA data at this point. This was taken with a Tak TOA130 with its 0.7x reducer on it and a KAF16200-based QHY16200A camera. The lady is a fan of butterflies so, I figured I would get to working on this. Individual subs came out  very good at about 1.5px or roughly 2.5". Stars were about 0.4 eccentricity. the mount I used for this was the AP1100 using APCC Pro, but no pointing model (as APPM continually failed to solve even at the Zenith via Image Link, for some reason, and ANSVR/SGP takes way too long). I did use PEMPro to dial in the polar alignment though. Guiding in PHD2 was good at about 0.5" most of the night with some fluctuations. I used 3 second guide exposures and the minmo on the two axis was roughly set to about .45".  SGP was the capture software, and as always worked wonderfully (other than focus taking way too long).


Feel free to have a look. Hopefully the weather continues to stay nice so I can hammer away at the rest of the data. In the end it should be a SHO integration, which will look lovely. Maybe tonight I can get Image Link and APPM to play nicely. 😊


Take care and clear skies!


Bill


Re: Can I bring the CP4 into the house

Christopher Erickson
 

Of course Roland is correct!
 
Just don't move controllers BETWEEN mounts and run the motors, or the PEM curves will be either wrong or out of sync.
 
 
-Christopher Erickson
Observatory engineer
Summit Kinetics
Waikoloa, HI 96738
www.summitkinetics.com
 



From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2018 3:37 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Can I bring the CP4 into the house

It will just go into Motor Stall if it senses no motors turning.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Erickson christopher.k.erickson@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto
Sent: Thu, Aug 2, 2018 7:10 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Can I bring the CP4 into the house



If you stop tracking before shutting down and make sure tracking is stopped for the entire indoor session and is stopped until the motors are reconnected, you won't lose your PEM tracking synchronization with the RA worm drive assembly. Otherwise you will have to rebuild your PEM curve.


-Christopher Erickson
Observatory engineer
Waikoloa, HI 96738
www.summitkinetics.com
   

On Thu, Aug 2, 2018, 1:34 PM stevenhoffman53@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...> wrote:


Can I bring the CP4 into the house (power it and connect via USB) and fiddle with the horizons without having the motors attached.
Because it's going to rain and would rather not have everything outside.

Thanks!!
steve






Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: Comm errors when wireless to CP4

John Robbins
 

Thanks Ray,
I had to set the value up to 1 second to stop the Comm Errors, but it worked. 
John


Re: Recalibrate the RAPAS

Christopher Erickson
 

Yes.
 
 
-Christopher Erickson
Observatory engineer
Summit Kinetics
Waikoloa, HI 96738
www.summitkinetics.com
 



From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 5, 2018 2:56 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: [ap-gto] Recalibrate the RAPAS

Is using PEMPRO drift alignment tool the best way to recalibrate the RAPAS?


Virus-free. www.avg.com


Recalibrate the RAPAS

Bruce Donzanti
 

Is using PEMPRO drift alignment tool the best way to recalibrate the RAPAS?


Re: Finally an image to share

Stuart Heggie <stuart.j.heggie@...>
 

Even better! Nice work Bill. Interesting tip re the QHY16200A. Thanks for that too!

Stuart

On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 at 16:31, Bill Long bill@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...> wrote:
 

Finally had a chance to get some more data.


https://astrob.in/full/358717/F/

At close to 6 hours now. The AP1100 has performed remarkably well. Last two sessions I was around 0.3-0.4" RMS guiding, using PEM Pro 3 for polar alignment. More to come when the OIII data kicks off.





From: Bill Long <bill@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 3:10 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Finally an image to share
 

Hello all,


Wanted to share a project I finally have in flight. I swear troubleshooting (things unrelated to my mount) this summer has been such a time sink for me. Anyhow, here is the current state of the data:


https://www.astrobin.com/full/358717/0/


Only 2 hours of HA data at this point. This was taken with a Tak TOA130 with its 0.7x reducer on it and a KAF16200-based QHY16200A camera. The lady is a fan of butterflies so, I figured I would get to working on this. Individual subs came out  very good at about 1.5px or roughly 2.5". Stars were about 0.4 eccentricity. the mount I used for this was the AP1100 using APCC Pro, but no pointing model (as APPM continually failed to solve even at the Zenith via Image Link, for some reason, and ANSVR/SGP takes way too long). I did use PEMPro to dial in the polar alignment though. Guiding in PHD2 was good at about 0.5" most of the night with some fluctuations. I used 3 second guide exposures and the minmo on the two axis was roughly set to about .45".  SGP was the capture software, and as always worked wonderfully (other than focus taking way too long).


Feel free to have a look. Hopefully the weather continues to stay nice so I can hammer away at the rest of the data. In the end it should be a SHO integration, which will look lovely. Maybe tonight I can get Image Link and APPM to play nicely. 😊


Take care and clear skies!


Bill