Date   

AP92 focuser question

yanzhe liu
 

Just noticed that if I loosen the focuser lock screw then the entire pinion assembly wobbles up and down. If the focuser is fully locked then it does not wobble (or only a little).
Shall I tighten highlighted 2 screws to fix this issue?

IMG_3333.jpg


Re: Guide star lost after dithering

 

yanzhe liu

That is good to hear, thanks for the update

What camera were you using, and does it have the built-in SBIG guider?

I'm glad it solved the problem, but i'm not entirely sure what's going on during image download such that it would cause a large spike in Dec


Brian


Re: New NINA plugin for APCC now in beta: Astro-Physics Tools

ap@CaptivePhotons.com
 

On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 11:55 AM, Ray Gralak wrote:
Can you provide a link to your zipped log files? (Please use the APCC Log zipper to zip up the ASCOM, APCC, APPM, and your PNT files).
Sure. The APCC files are large because it was a whole night run.  The model was built about 6:30pm local (EST) and the go-to for the slew-to-zenith sometime after 7:30am local (just after an unpark from park 2).  I spent the night guided, but guiding was really really good, so I do not think the model was invalid near the target, I think it actually helped. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1auH1GsWTWWUzoES3AAuMUIlXf8dmV-xq/view?usp=sharing

I also want to share this screen shot.  It's a small model made just to test the link with NINA the night before.  This is not the problem model. The reason I'm including is to show that the non-perp numbers are not wacky in a whole sky model.  The west is still worse than the east for some reason, but nothing like the huge numbers in the dec arc model. 



In retrospect I am not really surprised at what happened.  I think the dense but tiny model is being applied to other parts of the sky, where it is not valid (really not applicable).  In this case I had too few points (if you need 12) east, but I think the west pointing correction was so huge for the slew-to-zenith that it caused a flip (my meridian limits are at meridian).  

Assuming I didn't just do something wacky, there seem to be three possible mitigations: 

- Human avoids doing that (using a dec arc model for a slew to other parts of the sky)
- APPC somehow notices, and when pointing more than X degrees from the closest point ignores the model
- Provide a "turn off model corrections" function in the API and in NINA's sequence we can turn them off when done with a target. 

The second sounds ideal.  :) 

But... the chances of this being operator inflicted remain high, so I welcome your feedback. 

Linwood


Re: New NINA plugin for APCC now in beta: Astro-Physics Tools

Ray Gralak
 

Hi Linwood,

Can you provide a link to your zipped log files? (Please use the APCC Log zipper to zip up the ASCOM, APCC, APPM, and your PNT files).

I would like to take a look at what happened.

Thanks,

-Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of ap@...
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2021 5:09 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New NINA plugin for APCC now in beta: Astro-Physics Tools

On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 12:34 PM, ap@... wrote:


In other words, do we need to turn off the model when leaving the area of the sky covered by a Dec
Arc model, or does APCC do that on the fly by ignoring it?

So I think I can answer my own question. Last night I built a model for PacMan that covered maybe 60% of
its Arc. It modeled nicely, and had good tracking, and really good guiding (and yes, I realize it's probably
pointless to do a model and guide, but am experimenting to learn).

This morning I had NINA slew to zenith (which does a slew to ax 0/0/2 and dec 89/59/59 though not sure what
command it actually sends). The mount ended up on the wrong pierside and pointing off by maybe 10
degrees.

<https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/854531935660146718/913774035316391987/unknown.png>

I turned off pointing corrections and it went back to normal with another slew-to-zenith:

<https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/854531935660146718/913774291819036682/unknown.png>

I guess it is not surprising given the wacky large numbers in the model (though the model worked nicely for
that area of the sky).

The moral of the story for me - don't use a Dec Arc model well away from where you modeled.

Ray? Advice welcomed, did I do something else wrong, or is that basically the answer?

Linwood


Re: New NINA plugin for APCC now in beta: Astro-Physics Tools

Ray Gralak
 

Hi Linwood,

 

The Dec-Arc tracking rate model only calculates tracking rates, and the All-Sky pointing models handle pointing everywhere and tracking rates outside of the Dec-Arc tracking rate region.

 

That said, the pointing model requires at least 12 points on a pier-side to fill out the All-Sky pointing-model terms, so for fewer points than 12 on a pier-side, you probably should turn off the pointing correction (but leave on tracking rate correction). I will be putting in refinements that automatically do this in an upcoming build.

 

-Ray

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of ap@...
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2021 9:35 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New NINA plugin for APCC now in beta: Astro-Physics Tools

 

Thank you Dale, this looks to be incredibly useful for those who set up and tear down and do not want to build a whole sky model each night, especially those who image unguided.  

 

This brings up a question I guess is more for Ray about Dec Arc models in general.

 

Let's say I build a model for a target past meridian in the north west, load it, image a while.  The model only has points in that area, it tracks the target nicely. All good.   (Not hypothetical, I did it last night with Dale's plugin).

 

Now the model is still loaded, and I go to the East... I THINK there is no eastern sky model loaded so the model is ignored when I point to the eastern sky, right?  At least if I look in the model display that side is blank.

 

How about the south west, the model display shows a model for that area.  Is the decision to use/not only east/west, or if I now image the south west, way away from where I modeled by same pierside, is that model still used?  Or is it smart enough to notice it has no points near there, and not do any corrections in that area of the sky?

 

In other words, do we need to turn off the model when leaving the area of the sky covered by a Dec Arc model, or does APCC do that on the fly by ignoring it?

 

I ask because my model last night when I tried this was great in the area modeled, but had some wacky numbers in some of the model fields (that I expect if applied in other areas of the sky would be pretty far off because they were way different from my whole sky model).  

 

I was not smart enough last night to actually try tracking in another sky area to see if it applied corrections (IQ is inversely proportional to the number of dark hours you have been up).

 

I guess the 'right' answer is build a new Dec Arc model for the new area of the sky you want to go to.  😊

 

But is there a second choice, do we need to turn it off, or is APCC doing that for us implicitly?   Or is there a third choice?

 

Linwood

 


Re: New NINA plugin for APCC now in beta: Astro-Physics Tools

ap@CaptivePhotons.com
 

On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 10:34 AM, michael mccann wrote:
Which one may ask: if doing two targets, run the two areas at the beginning or run the second just after the first target is done?
If doing it in NINA, You need to do it at the beginning of each target.  There's no provision in the (current) NINA sequencer to load a prior model (obviously a human could in APPM if you wake up for the event).  In other words your sequence: 

  do model 1 
  slew/center/whatever to set up target 1
  loop for this target's images
  finish target
  do model 2
  slew/center/whatever to set up this target
  loop for this target
  finish target
  park/done

The point is after the model completes it is active.  There's no provision to switch to a prior model. 

The really nice part about what Ray and Dale have done for unguided imagers is that all this is now easily set up in your sequencer, there's no need for the human to be awake when this second model is built, and since it is a localized model it builds quickly. Two nicely dense models for two separate targets might in total 15 minutes; an equally dense whole sky model might waste 1-2 hours.  There's a lot of efficiency in just modeling a part of the sky, especially for portable setups where you cannot reuse a single all-sky dense model. 

Linwood


Re: New NINA plugin for APCC now in beta: Astro-Physics Tools

michael mccann
 

Which one may ask: if doing two targets, run the two areas at the beginning or run the second just after the first target is done?

Cheers


Re: New NINA plugin for APCC now in beta: Astro-Physics Tools

ap@CaptivePhotons.com
 

On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 12:34 PM, ap@... wrote:
In other words, do we need to turn off the model when leaving the area of the sky covered by a Dec Arc model, or does APCC do that on the fly by ignoring it?
So I think I can answer my own question.  Last night I built a model for PacMan that covered maybe 60% of its Arc.  It modeled nicely, and had good tracking, and really good guiding (and yes, I realize it's probably pointless to do a model and guide, but am experimenting to learn). 

This morning I had NINA slew to zenith (which does a slew to ax 0/0/2 and dec 89/59/59 though not sure what command it actually sends).  The mount ended up on the wrong pierside and pointing off by maybe 10 degrees.



I turned off pointing corrections and it went back to normal with another slew-to-zenith: 



I guess it is not surprising given the wacky large numbers in the model (though the model worked nicely for that area of the sky). 

The moral of the story for me - don't use a Dec Arc model well away from where you modeled.   

Ray?  Advice welcomed, did I do something else wrong, or is that basically the answer?   

Linwood


Re: New NINA plugin for APCC now in beta: Astro-Physics Tools

ap@CaptivePhotons.com
 

Thank you Dale, this looks to be incredibly useful for those who set up and tear down and do not want to build a whole sky model each night, especially those who image unguided.  

 

This brings up a question I guess is more for Ray about Dec Arc models in general.

 

Let's say I build a model for a target past meridian in the north west, load it, image a while.  The model only has points in that area, it tracks the target nicely. All good.   (Not hypothetical, I did it last night with Dale's plugin).

 

Now the model is still loaded, and I go to the East... I THINK there is no eastern sky model loaded so the model is ignored when I point to the eastern sky, right?  At least if I look in the model display that side is blank.

 

How about the south west, the model display shows a model for that area.  Is the decision to use/not only east/west, or if I now image the south west, way away from where I modeled by same pierside, is that model still used?  Or is it smart enough to notice it has no points near there, and not do any corrections in that area of the sky?

 

In other words, do we need to turn off the model when leaving the area of the sky covered by a Dec Arc model, or does APCC do that on the fly by ignoring it?

 

I ask because my model last night when I tried this was great in the area modeled, but had some wacky numbers in some of the model fields (that I expect if applied in other areas of the sky would be pretty far off because they were way different from my whole sky model).  

 

I was not smart enough last night to actually try tracking in another sky area to see if it applied corrections (IQ is inversely proportional to the number of dark hours you have been up).

 

I guess the 'right' answer is build a new Dec Arc model for the new area of the sky you want to go to.  😊

 

But is there a second choice, do we need to turn it off, or is APCC doing that for us implicitly?   Or is there a third choice?

 

Linwood

 


Re: New NINA plugin for APCC now in beta: Astro-Physics Tools

W Hilmo
 

This is great news.

Thanks for doing this!

On 11/25/21 6:41 AM, Dale Ghent wrote:
Hi all,

Some of you who have been using NINA, perhaps with my Utilities For Astro-Physics Mounts plugin, might be interested in a new plugin that will eventually supersede and replace that plugin. The new plugin is called Astro-Physics Tools, which is now available in NINA's plugin manager.

I've worked with Ray to develop some expanded capabilities for APPM that permits external applications (such as NINA, or others) to have tighter integration with the model creation process. This is especially handy when it comes to declination arc ("dec arc") models, as those are done within the context of imaging a specific target. So, first, let me extend my gratitude to Ray who has implemented an API for APPM in the current beta series of APCC Pro 1.9.2.x. His work is what has enabled this integration to be possible.

Now, about Astro-Phyics Tools itself:

I originally intended to drop the new APPM API code into the existing Utilities For Astro-Physics Mounts plugin but, as I continued to work on things and the API became quite capable, the plugin turned into a kind of Ship Of Theseus. Eventually, I came to think that this warranted it becoming its own, new plugin. Once APCC Pro 1.9.2 exits beta and becomes the current release version, Astro-Physics Tools will as well and my original U4APM plugin will be removed from the NINA plugin manager and no longer supported.

Astro-Physics Tools implements two model creation instructions: one for creating the classic all-sky models, and one for creating dec arc model. The dec arc model instruction will take the RA and declination of the target and, based on parameters that you configure in the plugin's settings, creates a dec arc model in APPM that is appropriate for it and launches APPM. APPM then creates the model and programs it into APCC, then the NINA sequence advances to the next instructions.

Full documentation on these instructions and the Astro-Physics Tools plugin are here:

https://daleghent.com/astro-physics-tools

As both this plugin and APCC Pro 1.9.2.x are both in beta release mode at this moment, using this plugin will require you to be conformable with that aspect, at least until both are promoted to a general release. The standard disclaimers apply, but any feedback and suggestions about Astro-Physics Tools - or its documentation - are always appreciated.

Thanks,
/dale



Re: New NINA plugin for APCC now in beta: Astro-Physics Tools

Dale Ghent
 

On Nov 25, 2021, at 10:23, Dean Jacobsen <deanjacobsen@...> wrote:

In looking through the documentation it certainly appears that you guys have created a very elegant way to do things.

I am presently connecting APPM to Sequence Generator Pro for the camera operation and the plate solving [PlateSolve2]. In my first read through of your Astro Physics Tools documentation I didn't see reference to plate solving [ I could have missed it] so I am assuming that the user needs to install and implement their plate solving method for APPM to use independent of Astro-Physics Tools and NINA, correct?
Yep. You do need to select and configure their desired plate solver in APPM. In the context of using NINA as the camera, the realistic options are ASTAP, TSX, or PinPoint. For NINA, our preference skews towards ASTAP, and APPM can utilize the same ASTAP installation that you use in NINA.

/dale


Re: New NINA plugin for APCC now in beta: Astro-Physics Tools

Dean Jacobsen
 

In looking through the documentation it certainly appears that you guys have created a very elegant way to do things.

I am presently connecting APPM to Sequence Generator Pro for the camera operation and the plate solving [PlateSolve2].  In my first read through of your Astro Physics Tools documentation I didn't see reference to plate solving [ I could have missed it] so I am assuming that the user needs to install and implement their plate solving method for APPM to use independent of Astro-Physics Tools and NINA, correct?
--
Dean Jacobsen
Astrobin Image Gallery - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/


Re: Guide star lost after dithering

Howard Ritter
 

If the notification list doesn’t go live soon, I’m gonna be too old!

—howard

On Nov 24, 2021, at 10:30 PM, Roland Christen via groups.io <chris1011@...> wrote:

Possibly, but not this year.

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: Howard Ritter via groups.io <howard.ritter@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Nov 24, 2021 10:28 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Guide star lost after dithering

Idle question: Whatever happened to the 3600GTO “El Capitan" mount? Looking at photos of it on its massive portable pier, carrying a PlaneWzve 24”, I realized it’s the ideal solution to my notional dream semipermanent home installation. Any plans (that can be mentioned) to produce it again, or for a successor?

—howard





--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


New NINA plugin for APCC now in beta: Astro-Physics Tools

Dale Ghent
 

Hi all,

Some of you who have been using NINA, perhaps with my Utilities For Astro-Physics Mounts plugin, might be interested in a new plugin that will eventually supersede and replace that plugin. The new plugin is called Astro-Physics Tools, which is now available in NINA's plugin manager.

I've worked with Ray to develop some expanded capabilities for APPM that permits external applications (such as NINA, or others) to have tighter integration with the model creation process. This is especially handy when it comes to declination arc ("dec arc") models, as those are done within the context of imaging a specific target. So, first, let me extend my gratitude to Ray who has implemented an API for APPM in the current beta series of APCC Pro 1.9.2.x. His work is what has enabled this integration to be possible.

Now, about Astro-Phyics Tools itself:

I originally intended to drop the new APPM API code into the existing Utilities For Astro-Physics Mounts plugin but, as I continued to work on things and the API became quite capable, the plugin turned into a kind of Ship Of Theseus. Eventually, I came to think that this warranted it becoming its own, new plugin. Once APCC Pro 1.9.2 exits beta and becomes the current release version, Astro-Physics Tools will as well and my original U4APM plugin will be removed from the NINA plugin manager and no longer supported.

Astro-Physics Tools implements two model creation instructions: one for creating the classic all-sky models, and one for creating dec arc model. The dec arc model instruction will take the RA and declination of the target and, based on parameters that you configure in the plugin's settings, creates a dec arc model in APPM that is appropriate for it and launches APPM. APPM then creates the model and programs it into APCC, then the NINA sequence advances to the next instructions.

Full documentation on these instructions and the Astro-Physics Tools plugin are here:

https://daleghent.com/astro-physics-tools

As both this plugin and APCC Pro 1.9.2.x are both in beta release mode at this moment, using this plugin will require you to be conformable with that aspect, at least until both are promoted to a general release. The standard disclaimers apply, but any feedback and suggestions about Astro-Physics Tools - or its documentation - are always appreciated.

Thanks,
/dale


Re: Guide star lost after dithering

Roland Christen
 

Possibly, but not this year.

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: Howard Ritter via groups.io <howard.ritter@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Nov 24, 2021 10:28 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Guide star lost after dithering

Idle question: Whatever happened to the 3600GTO “El Capitan" mount? Looking at photos of it on its massive portable pier, carrying a PlaneWzve 24”, I realized it’s the ideal solution to my notional dream semipermanent home installation. Any plans (that can be mentioned) to produce it again, or for a successor?

—howard





--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Re: Guide star lost after dithering

Howard Ritter
 

Idle question: Whatever happened to the 3600GTO “El Capitan" mount? Looking at photos of it on its massive portable pier, carrying a PlaneWzve 24”, I realized it’s the ideal solution to my notional dream semipermanent home installation. Any plans (that can be mentioned) to produce it again, or for a successor?

—howard


Re: Guide star lost after dithering

yanzhe liu
 

Last night I turned off guiding during download and it worked. I will test more in the next few days.

Thanks everyone for the help.

On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 8:16 AM Roland Christen via groups.io <chris1011=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Autofocus can shift the camera which will cause the star to jump. Try turning off Autofocus and see if you still get the jump.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Valente <bvalente@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Nov 23, 2021 10:52 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Guide star lost after dithering

There's one other thing you can test

disable dithering and take a few images, but leave everything else the same (i.e., continue guiding during download). If the issue persists, you know it's unrelated to dithering

If that's the case, you could then try imaging without guiding and downloading and see what happens

On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 6:39 PM yanzhe liu <liuyanzhe@...> wrote:
Download takes 10-20s. Yes, guiding is still on during download, but not during auto focus.

On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 6:31 PM Brian Valente <bvalente@...> wrote:
Regarding your image download when exposure complete, are you still guiding while image is downloading? Does download take a while?

On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 6:28 PM yanzhe liu <liuyanzhe@...> wrote:
Yes, exposure time was 900s.

On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 6:25 PM Brian Valente <bvalente@...> wrote:
Are you doing 15 minute exposures?

The dither distances and settling look fine from a PHD perspective, although I can see a big spike in guidestar SNR roughly every 900 seconds

On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 5:49 PM yanzhe liu <liuyanzhe@...> wrote:
Here is the log:

https://openphdguiding.org/logs/dl/PHD2_logs_xGZF.zip

I have not used the log before but I think this is the dither causing issue. I then restarted the sequence by turning dither off.

19:29:39.383 00.003 2112 PhdController::Dither begins
19:29:39.386 00.003 2112 dither: size=1.00, dRA=-0.61 dDec=0.00
19:29:39.389 00.003 2112 MountToCamera -- mountTheta (3.14) + m_xAngle (-1.59) = xAngle (1.55 = 1.55)
19:29:39.392 00.003 2112 MountToCamera -- mountX=-0.61 mountY=0.00 hyp=0.61 mountTheta=3.14 cameraX=0.01, cameraY=0.61 cameraTheta=1.55
19:29:39.395 00.003 2112 setting lock position to (121.19, 18.76)
19:29:39.398 00.003 2112 Mount: notify guiding dithered (0.0, 0.6)
19:29:39.401 00.003 2112 MultiStar: stabilizing after lock position change
19:29:39.403 00.002 2112 Status Line: Dither by -0.61,0.00


--
Brian 



Brian Valente


--
Brian 



Brian Valente


--
Brian 



Brian Valente

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Re: Guide star lost after dithering

Roland Christen
 

Autofocus can shift the camera which will cause the star to jump. Try turning off Autofocus and see if you still get the jump.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Valente <bvalente@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Nov 23, 2021 10:52 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Guide star lost after dithering

There's one other thing you can test

disable dithering and take a few images, but leave everything else the same (i.e., continue guiding during download). If the issue persists, you know it's unrelated to dithering

If that's the case, you could then try imaging without guiding and downloading and see what happens

On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 6:39 PM yanzhe liu <liuyanzhe@...> wrote:
Download takes 10-20s. Yes, guiding is still on during download, but not during auto focus.

On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 6:31 PM Brian Valente <bvalente@...> wrote:
Regarding your image download when exposure complete, are you still guiding while image is downloading? Does download take a while?

On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 6:28 PM yanzhe liu <liuyanzhe@...> wrote:
Yes, exposure time was 900s.

On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 6:25 PM Brian Valente <bvalente@...> wrote:
Are you doing 15 minute exposures?

The dither distances and settling look fine from a PHD perspective, although I can see a big spike in guidestar SNR roughly every 900 seconds

On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 5:49 PM yanzhe liu <liuyanzhe@...> wrote:
Here is the log:

https://openphdguiding.org/logs/dl/PHD2_logs_xGZF.zip

I have not used the log before but I think this is the dither causing issue. I then restarted the sequence by turning dither off.

19:29:39.383 00.003 2112 PhdController::Dither begins
19:29:39.386 00.003 2112 dither: size=1.00, dRA=-0.61 dDec=0.00
19:29:39.389 00.003 2112 MountToCamera -- mountTheta (3.14) + m_xAngle (-1.59) = xAngle (1.55 = 1.55)
19:29:39.392 00.003 2112 MountToCamera -- mountX=-0.61 mountY=0.00 hyp=0.61 mountTheta=3.14 cameraX=0.01, cameraY=0.61 cameraTheta=1.55
19:29:39.395 00.003 2112 setting lock position to (121.19, 18.76)
19:29:39.398 00.003 2112 Mount: notify guiding dithered (0.0, 0.6)
19:29:39.401 00.003 2112 MultiStar: stabilizing after lock position change
19:29:39.403 00.002 2112 Status Line: Dither by -0.61,0.00


--
Brian 



Brian Valente


--
Brian 



Brian Valente


--
Brian 



Brian Valente

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Re: Eltima Virtual Ports

Ray Gralak
 

Hi David,

I tried three more times as instructed - the same error message appears. I'll call next week.
The exact cause for the issue on a few computers is not known, but I think the problem is likely a missing Windows DLL in Windows 10. The fact that virtual ports were working for you in Windows 11 on the same computer supports this theory. Unfortunately, this may be something that will take time for Eltima to track down.

That said, if you did a completely new Windows 10 install on this computer, make sure that you download and install all of the manufacturer's drivers for the computer and perform all of the Windows updates. One of the manufacturer drivers or Windows updates may contain a required DLL.

-Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of hawkp60@...
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2021 9:03 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Eltima Virtual Ports

Ray,

I tried three more times as instructed - the same error message appears. I'll call next week. Happy
Thanksgiving.

David Burrell


Re: Mount Status Not Updating in MaxIm DL Observatory Control Window

M Hambrick
 

I got the CD player mainly to copy my CD collection into iTunes so that I could load then onto my iPod. Over the years I have accumulated quite a large collection of CDs, mostly in the pop and rock genre. I have around 500 CDs loaded onto a 164GB iPod classic, using about 120GB of the available space.

At the time I got my laptop, much of the software was still being sent out on CDs.

Mike

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