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Re: Fine tuning PHD2 settings for 1100 with Encoders
#Guiding
Andrew J
Hi Brian.
This is really helpful!! You are right, as a software developer I keep thinking this is just an equation that needs to be solved and all I need is the right inputs. No doubt there is some "artistry" involved. That said, I do want to at least understand what the 'theoretical" settings should be and use those as my starting point. I think in large part I am just getting hung up on the terminology. If I look at this output from PHD2 Guiding Assistant, are you saying that my P-P Arc Seconds is the Declination, Peak of 0.73 px (1.44 arc sec)? If yes, how does this help me determine what MinMo I should use as a starting point? I took this screen shot before I hit the finish button, but it came back and recomended a RA MinMo = 0.20 and a DEC MinMo = 0.30.  As mentioned in a previous post, I did another imaging run on Saturday night and all I changed was the aggression on both axis to 0.63 or RA and 0.72 for DEC and my graph fattened out quite a bit. I was able to achive an RMS of 0.23 on one point during the night. I think by relaxing the Aggression it alllowed the encoders to "do their work". I have been imaging from a permant setup for about 6 years now (previously with a Mach1) and guiding has always been my achillies heel. I get it close enough to get round stars, but have to admit I really don't understand it. Now that I have a mount that can track extreamly accurately, I want to make sure I am using it to its full potential. FYI. In case it helps. In addition to the 1100GTO mount, I am also using a Tele-Vue NP101is. I bought this scope specifically for the 1100's "shack down cruise". I wanted a short scope to give me plenty of room for error around the Pier until I get APCC, SGP, etc. fine tuned. My primay scope is a TEC 140, but I am not putting on until I get everything working together and able I am able to have several all night imaging runs without issue. For guiding, I am use the Baader Vario Finder 10x60 along with AP's bracket to help reduce flexure. Primary camera is an ATIK 16200 and guide cam is a ZWO ASI178MM. Andrew
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Re: APPM and ASTAP
#APCC
Ray Gralak
Bill,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
There was talk about this last week on this forum, so you may want to look back on those posts. The short answer is that APPM uses ASTAP's "automatic mode" for calculating the view/image scale field during a regular APPM run with the expectation that ASTAP will accurately calculate image scale. However, ASTAP's automatic mode is not very automatic. So, you may have to configure the ASTAP's settings in APPM to get ASTAP to solve images. I am working on a fix to get around ASTAP's unexpected behavior, but it is not ready. In the longer term, I am considering porting just ASTAP's plate solving logic to C#/.NET so that I can make plate solving work in a way that is most efficient for future APPM features. -Ray
-----Original Message-----
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Re: Smart Meridian Flip with NINA
#APCC
Ray Gralak
Joe,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
At the end of an APPM run, APPM will automatically enable pointing and tracking rate correction when it loads the new data into APCC, so you will need to turn it off afterward. -Ray
-----Original Message-----
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Re: Smart Meridian Flip with NINA
#APCC
Joseph Beyer
OK, thanks. I've actually starting making Dec models with three rows of points but I had this one already made so I used it. Ironically I looked at it just before starting the mapping and debated whether to update it with another row. Go figure.
I thought I had disabled the pointing model when I unchecked the "Enable Pointing Correction" box in the "Pointing Model" tab of APCC. The program still shows it as unchecked as it was before I started the run. Is there somewhere else I need to disable the feature? Joe
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APPM and ASTAP
#APCC
Bill Conrad
I have APCC 1.9.0.11 and latest ASTAP. When I try to run a pointing model the ASTAP solve always fails. If I leave the scope at the run target location and press the Plate Solve button, the solve is always successful in a few seconds. What am I missing?
Bill Conrad
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Re: Mach2 with TEC180 for visual
Roland Christen
It will bounce around when you bump it lightly. I would recommend a 1600 mount if you want stability at high powers. I have my 175 on a 1600 mount and it's just about perfect for that scope.
Rolando
-----Original Message-----
From: Shailesh Trivedi <strivedi@...> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io Sent: Mon, Oct 11, 2021 1:05 pm Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 with TEC180 for visual Roland,
Yes i know the 180 has a huge moment arm. When you say boingy is it during slews (which I can reduce) or in general due to the long moment arm? Shailesh -- Roland Christen Astro-Physics
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Re: Mach2 with TEC180 for visual
Shailesh Trivedi
Roland,
Yes i know the 180 has a huge moment arm. When you say boingy is it during slews (which I can reduce) or in general due to the long moment arm? Shailesh
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Re: Smart Meridian Flip with NINA
#APCC
Ray Gralak
Joe,
The West all-sky model looks bad, as I suspected.
However, pointing-correction was on, so it appears that the bad west-side model moved the mount to a bad position.
It's unusual that the west side model is so bad (see screenshot). I suggest you try three rows of data points instead of two.
-Ray
> -----Original Message----- > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Beyer > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2021 10:36 AM > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Smart Meridian Flip with NINA #APCC > > Hi Ray, > > Files are posted here: > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Bkzp6E7gyMqm1zBJdabUFEeax7unijmY/view?usp=sharing > > The model was created just before the imaging run. I didn't notice any problems during the mapping, all plate > solves were successful. > > Pointing corrections are disabled in APCC. > > Joe
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Re: Mach2 with TEC180 for visual
Roland Christen
I think that's stretching things. The mount will hold the weight but it will be somewhat boingy.
Rolando
-----Original Message-----
From: Shailesh Trivedi <strivedi@...> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io Sent: Mon, Oct 11, 2021 12:16 pm Subject: [ap-gto] Mach2 with TEC180 for visual I am mostly an imaging person and now wanting to go visual; I just received a Mach2 and was wondering if I can load up my TEC 180 for visual. Any insights?
Shailesh -- Roland Christen Astro-Physics
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Re: Smart Meridian Flip with NINA
#APCC
Joseph Beyer
Hi Ray,
Files are posted here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Bkzp6E7gyMqm1zBJdabUFEeax7unijmY/view?usp=sharing The model was created just before the imaging run. I didn't notice any problems during the mapping, all plate solves were successful. Pointing corrections are disabled in APCC. Joe
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Re: Smart Meridian Flip with NINA
#APCC
Ray Gralak
Hi Joe,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Can you post a link to a zip file created via the APCC Log zipper utility that includes the APPM PNT file(s) as well as APCC, APPM, and AP V2 logs from last night? It sounds like the west side model may be bad. Did you have pointing corrections enabled in APCC? -Ray
-----Original Message-----
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Mach2 with TEC180 for visual
Shailesh Trivedi
I am mostly an imaging person and now wanting to go visual; I just received a Mach2 and was wondering if I can load up my TEC 180 for visual. Any insights?
Shailesh
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Re: Fine tuning PHD2 settings for 1100 with Encoders
#Guiding
Hi Andrew I appreciate the struggle! There are a lot of things to know and learn and understand how they relate to each other. You may also get a lot of conflicting advice on how to go about understanding things, which can further confuse and complicate things. I do want to offer a few of my observations on some questions you have: >>>>once I have an unguided PHD2 Graph, how can I determine my P-P arc seconds seeing The guiding assistant output will show your P-P error, the DEC error is a rough approximation of your seeing conditions. >>>How can I determine what is the theoretical FWHM of my system? assuming you aren't diffraction limited (and likely you aren't), you can take very short exposure of maybe 1-3 seconds. That should give you a good indication of achievable FWHM for your system and observing conditions. You should probably use a center crop to eliminate things like backfocus and collimation. >>>Once I know the P-P arc seconds seeing and my systems theoretical FWHM, how can I derive the best MinMo settings for a given imaging session? I thought all I needed was to get the Total RMS from the Guiding Assistant and the use this to determine my MinMo. The guiding assistant's purpose is to provide you with that information and make that calculation. It's a really good starting point. However, there can be some artistry involved in tuning your system. For example, as I mentioned previously I noticed your min moves showed some oscillations in your guiding, To me this usually means you can tighten up the min move and probably improve your guiding results. That's from my couple years experience with the 1600ae in extremely good seeing conditions and making plenty of mistakes trying to figure out the same thing. Your encoders add an additional level of simplicity and complexity: they take care of a lot of things non-encoder mounts rely on guiding to do. For you (and me) that means you have to know the ideal balance between guiding and letting the encoders do their work. The "bump guiding" Roland has referred to in the past is a good approach for this. Overall, if you are looking for a set of procedures to calculate conditions and performance, and then plug in these numbers that will somehow give you more accurate min move and improved guiding, I think you will find that an exercise in frustration.Calculating theoretical settings is a lot different than watching your guiding and knowing what to look for. The PHD guiding assistant is a great starting point, and I think experience will be the path forward for evaluating and improving things. I'm sure others will have plenty of feedback on this as well. Brian
On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 7:50 AM Andrew J <andjones132@...> wrote: Hi Brian. --
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Re: Smart Meridian Flip with NINA
#APCC
Joseph Beyer
I've still got a problem with NINA and APCC. Last night I created a relatively simple a sequence in the advanced sequencer (one filter, 5 minute subs for 3.5 hours then park the scope) and all went well until the meridian flip. I used the simple flip rather than the smart meridian flip which I'd had problems with recently.
I've been using APPM before each imaging run and am not guiding, only using the direct guider to provide a dither every 3 or so frames. Last night the Mach1 was taking 5 minute subs with pinpoint stars. At the start of the sequence the mount slewed to the target (NGC 7000), plate solved (no pointing correction was needed) and started imaging sequence - no problems. The meridian flip was scheduled at the correct time. Flip occurred but the telescope ended up pointing at the NE horizon. Stopped the sequence to determine if the mount itself had lost pointing - parked to Park 3 without a problem. Repointed to target using the sky atlas in NINA but pointing was incorrect, the Dec value appeared correct but it was pointing much further west than the actual position (screen shot). I was hoping to just get imaging again so tried to point with CdC which then froze APCC and caused it to close. I can provide additional details after that but the night ended shortly after that with APCC not being able to connect to the mount successfully. Suggestions are welcome. I can provide more details, just didn't want to create a monologue of trivial facts. Hopefully I can get APCC connecting to the mount again today as I can always just use the simple sequence planner in the meantime until I get this figured out. I'm wondering if at this point I may want to reinstall both software packages? Joe
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Re: Two videos about the AP 175 F/8 refractor
dvjbaja
Answering my own question. According to the mfg. the canvas is supposed to be on the outside, silver liner on the inside. go figure.
On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 8:40 AM John Gleason <jpgleasonid@...> wrote:
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Re: [ap-ug] [ap-gto] Two videos about the AP 175 F/8 refractor
>>>No, silver is on the inside. I have been using Telegizmos 365 tarps for many years. Tony has it correct. Not only that, but a while ago I decided I was smarter than the instructions, and put the reflector side on the outside during the hot sunny summer days completely ruined the cover after a short time. Lesson learned
On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 8:46 AM thefamily90 Phillips <thefamily90@...> wrote:
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Re: [ap-ug] [ap-gto] Two videos about the AP 175 F/8 refractor
thefamily90 Phillips
No, silver is on the inside. I have been using Telegizmos 365 tarps for many years. Tony has it correct.
JimP
From: main@ap-ug.groups.io <main@ap-ug.groups.io> on behalf of dvjbaja <jpgleasonid@...>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2021 11:40:17 AM To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> Cc: astrocnc@... <astrocnc@...>; main@ap-ug.groups.io <main@ap-ug.groups.io> Subject: Re: [ap-ug] [ap-gto] Two videos about the AP 175 F/8 refractor The telegizmos cover is inside out is it not? Silver on the outside to reflect sunlight.
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Re: Two videos about the AP 175 F/8 refractor
dvjbaja
The telegizmos cover is inside out is it not? Silver on the outside to reflect sunlight.
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Re: Fine tuning PHD2 settings for 1100 with Encoders
#Guiding
Roland Christen
I recently acquired and setup a Unihedron SQM meter thinking it might help determine my Seeing. My best readings recently have been Naked-Eye Limiting Magnitude (NELM) of ~4.4 and Mag/sq Arcsec (MPSAS) of ~18.5, which translates into a White/City Sky Bortle value. Based on what you have said above, I interpret this to mean that all this meter will do is help me determine is my Transparency. It will not help determine my Seeing. Is this a correct interpretation? Yes, SQM meters will not determine seeing. They determine the combination of transparency and light pollution levels. Has nothing to do with seeing.
Rolando
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew J <andjones132@...> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io Sent: Mon, Oct 11, 2021 9:37 am Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Fine tuning PHD2 settings for 1100 with Encoders #Guiding Hi Roland.
Thank you for your feedback. I will get the screen shots with no guiding corrections after I let it run for 5 - 10 mins. Unfortunately, clouds have rolled in again and not expected to clear again until next weekend. I will revive this thread once I have the screen shots.
Thank you for explanation of the termination around of Seeing . I must admit I still struggle to get my head around this. I understand the concept that we need to let PHD2 run unguided for a period of time to determine the Seeing on a given night and use that information to set the MinMo in PHD2. However, I still struggle with how to get the necessary inputs. For example, once I have an unguided PHD2 Graph, how can I determine my P-P arc seconds seeing? How can I determine what is the theoretical FWHM of my system? Once I know the P-P arc seconds seeing and my systems theoretical FWHM, how can I derive the best MinMo settings for a given imaging session? I thought all I needed was to get the Total RMS from the Guiding Assistant and the use this to determine my MinMo. That said, I have not been able to understand the relationship between the Total RMS and what PHD2 recommends as the MinMo values. Maybe once I publish the unguided screenshots you or some of the gurus here can help explain how to interpret and extract the required information from the graph and feed that information into the guiding algorithms. A explanation using screenshots I think would be really helpful (at least for me).
I recently acquired and setup a Unihedron SQM meter thinking it might help determine my Seeing. My best readings recently have been Naked-Eye Limiting Magnitude (NELM) of ~4.4 and Mag/sq Arcsec (MPSAS) of ~18.5, which translates into a White/City Sky Bortle value. Based on what you have said above, I interpret this to mean that all this meter will do is help me determine is my Transparency. It will not help determine my Seeing. Is this a correct interpretation?
I appreciate that this is not a PHD2 forum, but I trust the expertise and recommendations that I receive here over what I might find on other forums. Plus I really want to see how this applies specifically to AP mounts with encoders. I do think getting a solid understanding of these concepts can help us get the most out of our mounts.
-- Roland Christen Astro-Physics
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Re: Two videos about the AP 175 F/8 refractor
Roland Christen
Attaching the 175 refractor with dovetail is doing it the hard way. Unless you're a wrestler. I first attach the dovetail and rings to the mount and open the rings. Then I simply lift the tube into the rings, close them and voila! the deed is done.
Rolando
-----Original Message-----
From: Harley Davidson <astrocnc@...> To: main@ap-ug.groups.io <main@ap-ug.groups.io>; main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> Sent: Sun, Oct 10, 2021 3:51 pm Subject: [ap-gto] Two videos about the AP 175 F/8 refractor
I have two more videos.
TeleGizmos T3R6 All Weather Cover with an Astro Physics 175 f/8 EDF Refractor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW37FjtnOew  Attaching A Large Refractor Telescope (by yourself) to an Equatorial mount Astro Physics 175 f/8 EDF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy2GNNHdErA  tony -- Roland Christen Astro-Physics
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