Date   

Re: AP1100 coming, least hassle plate solver?

 
Edited

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 04:07 PM, Peter Nagy wrote:
Voyager can use native QHY and ASI camera drivers. I use native QHY driver with Voyager using QHY600M camera without issues.
Yes, I've used Voyager with the ASI camera driver too.  But APCC/APPM can't.  At this time, it can only use a native camera driver accessed through SGP,  TSX, Maxim DL, etc., and soon NINA.  The ASI ASCOM driver is the only one they both can use.

I can still use Voyager with the ASI driver, but when the time comes I will just use the ASCOM driver with APPM for a point mapping run.  I'm going to do some tests to see what the difference in performance will be.

Jerome

P.S. I hope I've understood everyone's posts until now. :}


Re: Physical handling questions (AP1100)

Kent Kirkley
 

Linwood

You're overthinking this.
Your AP mount is rugged.
Transporting it as you do there is no damage to anything.
Sure, if the tripod and mount tumbled off the hand truck onto concrete
there is the possibility of damage but even then, scratches more than anything.
Enjoy your mount.

Kent Kirkley
AP1200GTO
Traveler
 AP160




-----Original Message-----
From: ap@... <ap@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Fri, Jul 30, 2021 6:14 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Physical handling questions (AP1100)

OK, before I do something stupid.... 

I image in my back yard, about 70' or so travel, but it has to go in and out each night, nothing can be left set up.  This means hauling a lot of stuff in and out, and I try to minimize assembly.

With the CEM70G I had, I started using a customized handtruck -- wide plate at the bottom, padding on the back, lean the tripod + mount into it, strap it on, and take it out.  No mount removal/attachment, all the wires, etc.

With the AP1100 I hoped to do the same, and prepared a new handtruck, bigger low pressure tires (15") for smoother ride.  Then I read in the manual "Always disassemble the mount before moving it or transporting it". 

Yikes... kind of spoils that, especially since I hoped to keep the thru wiring zip tied to the dovetail..

But... this is not like putting it in the back of a truck and hauling it to a dark site up down a rough gravel road.  Is it?  There's one 5" step, 20' of pavers, the rest is level grass.

Photos below, to show how it rests when leaned back to move, and a bit wider view with it just sitting.

The very last thing I want to do is damage it, but it doesn't "feel" like this is a rough trip.   How fragile is it?   I realize it's hard to gauge without physically rolling it yourself, but... any insight to share? 

An alternative is to release the worm gears and leave the counterweight shaft on, basically let it float since it would be down-heavy I think.

On a related physical question: the advice to release the gearbox only in Park 3; is that just in case it's out of balance significantly?  Or is there some other reason?  I had tentatively planned to park and unpark from 2, and since I won't have a computer outside it's easier to just start the balance from there (I'll be darn close to DEC balanced when mounted, and RA bottom heavy). 

It's going to be cloudy tonight but might be enough sky to make it worth trying to take it outside, so this became relevant unexpectedly since it was supposed to be overcast. 

Any advice welcomed.  Not having to disassemble, with the cables and wire ties will save me 30-45 minutes at a guess, going each way.

Linwood

Sorry for the angle on the leaning shot, no one around to help, so had to hold the cell off to one side and that's as far as I could stretch.


Re: Physical handling questions (AP1100)

Ben Lutch
 


Fwiw, I use JMI Wheeley Bars to move my AP1200 setup (which carries a 6" - 10" refractor depending on the season, so it's pretty loaded up) in and out and all set up with wiring, scope and all the fixings.  This is over pavers, maybe 20-30 ft.  I have been doing this for the last ~20 years w/no ill effects I could detect.  Just one data point, but fwiw....
b

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 4:14 PM ap@... <ap@...> wrote:
OK, before I do something stupid.... 

I image in my back yard, about 70' or so travel, but it has to go in and out each night, nothing can be left set up.  This means hauling a lot of stuff in and out, and I try to minimize assembly.

With the CEM70G I had, I started using a customized handtruck -- wide plate at the bottom, padding on the back, lean the tripod + mount into it, strap it on, and take it out.  No mount removal/attachment, all the wires, etc.

With the AP1100 I hoped to do the same, and prepared a new handtruck, bigger low pressure tires (15") for smoother ride.  Then I read in the manual "Always disassemble the mount before moving it or transporting it". 

Yikes... kind of spoils that, especially since I hoped to keep the thru wiring zip tied to the dovetail..

But... this is not like putting it in the back of a truck and hauling it to a dark site up down a rough gravel road.  Is it?  There's one 5" step, 20' of pavers, the rest is level grass.

Photos below, to show how it rests when leaned back to move, and a bit wider view with it just sitting.

The very last thing I want to do is damage it, but it doesn't "feel" like this is a rough trip.   How fragile is it?   I realize it's hard to gauge without physically rolling it yourself, but... any insight to share? 

An alternative is to release the worm gears and leave the counterweight shaft on, basically let it float since it would be down-heavy I think.

On a related physical question: the advice to release the gearbox only in Park 3; is that just in case it's out of balance significantly?  Or is there some other reason?  I had tentatively planned to park and unpark from 2, and since I won't have a computer outside it's easier to just start the balance from there (I'll be darn close to DEC balanced when mounted, and RA bottom heavy). 

It's going to be cloudy tonight but might be enough sky to make it worth trying to take it outside, so this became relevant unexpectedly since it was supposed to be overcast. 

Any advice welcomed.  Not having to disassemble, with the cables and wire ties will save me 30-45 minutes at a guess, going each way.

Linwood

Sorry for the angle on the leaning shot, no one around to help, so had to hold the cell off to one side and that's as far as I could stretch.


Physical handling questions (AP1100)

ap@CaptivePhotons.com
 

OK, before I do something stupid.... 

I image in my back yard, about 70' or so travel, but it has to go in and out each night, nothing can be left set up.  This means hauling a lot of stuff in and out, and I try to minimize assembly.

With the CEM70G I had, I started using a customized handtruck -- wide plate at the bottom, padding on the back, lean the tripod + mount into it, strap it on, and take it out.  No mount removal/attachment, all the wires, etc.

With the AP1100 I hoped to do the same, and prepared a new handtruck, bigger low pressure tires (15") for smoother ride.  Then I read in the manual "Always disassemble the mount before moving it or transporting it". 

Yikes... kind of spoils that, especially since I hoped to keep the thru wiring zip tied to the dovetail..

But... this is not like putting it in the back of a truck and hauling it to a dark site up down a rough gravel road.  Is it?  There's one 5" step, 20' of pavers, the rest is level grass.

Photos below, to show how it rests when leaned back to move, and a bit wider view with it just sitting.

The very last thing I want to do is damage it, but it doesn't "feel" like this is a rough trip.   How fragile is it?   I realize it's hard to gauge without physically rolling it yourself, but... any insight to share? 

An alternative is to release the worm gears and leave the counterweight shaft on, basically let it float since it would be down-heavy I think.

On a related physical question: the advice to release the gearbox only in Park 3; is that just in case it's out of balance significantly?  Or is there some other reason?  I had tentatively planned to park and unpark from 2, and since I won't have a computer outside it's easier to just start the balance from there (I'll be darn close to DEC balanced when mounted, and RA bottom heavy). 

It's going to be cloudy tonight but might be enough sky to make it worth trying to take it outside, so this became relevant unexpectedly since it was supposed to be overcast. 

Any advice welcomed.  Not having to disassemble, with the cables and wire ties will save me 30-45 minutes at a guess, going each way.

Linwood

Sorry for the angle on the leaning shot, no one around to help, so had to hold the cell off to one side and that's as far as I could stretch.


Re: AP1100 coming, least hassle plate solver?

Peter Nagy
 

That would be nice in Voyager too. :)
Voyager can use native QHY and ASI camera drivers. I use native QHY driver with Voyager using QHY600M camera without issues.

Peter


Re: AP1100 coming, least hassle plate solver?

 

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 01:55 PM, ap@... wrote:
Then I’m not sure how NINA helps the APPM process
I suppose one advantage would be the ability to use a camera's native driver at all times, instead of sharing a  probably lower performance or non-existent ASCOM driver.

That would be nice in Voyager too. :)


Re: 92mm Stowaway 4th Run Update

Marcelo Figueroa
 

Ok, thanks, I saw it. I was looking for a big notice saying SIGN HERE (it's in the text itself).


Re: AP1100 coming, least hassle plate solver?

Dale Ghent
 

On Jul 30, 2021, at 15:32, Brian Valente <bvalente@gmail.com> wrote:

cameras can connect to only one application at a time.
I may not understand this comment fully, but multilple apps can connect to a camera simultaneously with ASCOM drivers (and presumably Indi). I connect camera to multiple applications all the time.

only one app can use the camera at a time, maybe that's what you mean?

A clarification - yes, multiple apps can access a camera through an ASCOM driver, as the ASCOM driver acts as the arbiter, or proxy, for all client applications that want to talk to the device (mount, camera, etc.). In the example of doing things with APPM and your chosen astrophoto app, both APPM and SGPro/Maxim/NINA/Voyager/whatever else would connect through the camera's own ASCOM driver.

That is all fine and dandy until you want to connect to the camera directly from an application, bypassing ASCOM, such as in the case where the app has a "native" driver for the camera. The reasons for wanting to do this are compelling - the speed of the frame download almost always remarkably higher, and one gets access to camera controls and telemetry that aren't available via ASCOM's defined interfaces.

But this means, generally, that other apps - including the camera's own ASCOM driver - cannot also connect to the camera at the same time as the app with the native driver. This means that the app now needs to offer a way for other apps to control the camera through it. Several astrophoto apps have APIs that allow this to happen, it's just that /other/ apps need to be able to talk to these various APIs. APPM (as of 1.9) grew that ability for NINA's API in addition to its already existing abilities to talk to the API for SGPro, Maxim, and other apps that you see listen under the Camera device dropdown in APPM.

What this means is that, with 1.9, one doens't have to manually disconnect the camera in NINA to then use it under ASCOM in APPM, then when that's done, disconnect the camera in APPM (under ASCOM) and then reconnect to it in NINA using the native driver. Eliminating this dance of who-is-connect-via-what with APPM now allows for the kind of point mapping automation that I've talked about in previous posts.


Re: 92mm Stowaway 4th Run Update

Karen Christen
 

George is right.  The link is about halfway down the Availability tab, in the answer to the question How do I sign up?

 

Karen

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of George
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 3:30 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] 92mm Stowaway 4th Run Update

 

Marcelo,

 

In the description go to the availability tab and you will see a link to the form.

 

Regards,

 

George

 

George Whitney

Astro-Physics, Inc.

Phone:  815-222-6538 (direct line)

Phone:  815-282-1513 (office)

Email:  george@...

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Marcelo Figueroa via groups.io
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 3:17 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] 92mm Stowaway 4th Run Update

 

I don't see the form to fill out. Only the update of July 30 announcing the draw, but nothing where to register.


--
Karen Christen
Astro-Physics


Re: 92mm Stowaway 4th Run Update

George
 

Marcelo,

 

In the description go to the availability tab and you will see a link to the form.

 

Regards,

 

George

 

George Whitney

Astro-Physics, Inc.

Phone:  815-222-6538 (direct line)

Phone:  815-282-1513 (office)

Email:  george@...

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Marcelo Figueroa via groups.io
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 3:17 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] 92mm Stowaway 4th Run Update

 

I don't see the form to fill out. Only the update of July 30 announcing the draw, but nothing where to register.


Re: 92mm Stowaway 4th Run Update

Marcelo Figueroa
 

I don't see the form to fill out. Only the update of July 30 announcing the draw, but nothing where to register.


Re: AP1100 coming, least hassle plate solver?

ap@CaptivePhotons.com
 

>>> cameras can connect to only one application at a time.

 

>> I may not understand this comment fully, but multilple apps can connect to a camera simultaneously with  ASCOM drivers (and presumably Indi). I connect camera to multiple applications all the time.

 

>> only one app can use the camera at a time, maybe that's what you mean?


Well, I learned something new.

 

In my case the camera includes a focuser and a filter wheel.  Those are accessed by COMx devices (in windows), and those can only be used by one program at a time, so that is likely where I got the impression, as when I change use of the camera I also include the focuser and filter wheel.  In some cases that might not be necessary, but TSX in particular automagically connects those three things as a unit when you connect the camera (at least by default).

 

Sorry for the confusion.  Then I’m not sure how NINA helps the APPM process, I thought I know, apparently wrong.

 

Guess 1.9 will let me understand it all.    Hopefully soon.

 

Linwood


Re: AP1100 coming, least hassle plate solver?

 

>>> cameras can connect to only one application at a time.

I may not understand this comment fully, but multilple apps can connect to a camera simultaneously with  ASCOM drivers (and presumably Indi). I connect camera to multiple applications all the time.

only one app can use the camera at a time, maybe that's what you mean?

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 12:25 PM ap@... <ap@...> wrote:

>>> If APPM will be able to platesolve using ASTAP directly, and I have an ASCOM camera (which APPM can also use) then no other intermediate software (SGP, NINA, etc.) is needed?

 

>correct

 

What may be confusing in the prior discussion surrounding NINA, basically it was to allow NINA to control the camera.  This allowed the process to run without disconnecting the camera from NINA to connect to APPM (or whatever), and then reconnect to NINA.  So handy for NINA users, but not implying NINA was a requirement for ASTAP.

 

Unlike mounts, cameras can connect to only one application at a time.

 

Linwood



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


Re: AP1100 coming, least hassle plate solver?

ap@CaptivePhotons.com
 

>>> If APPM will be able to platesolve using ASTAP directly, and I have an ASCOM camera (which APPM can also use) then no other intermediate software (SGP, NINA, etc.) is needed?

 

>correct

 

What may be confusing in the prior discussion surrounding NINA, basically it was to allow NINA to control the camera.  This allowed the process to run without disconnecting the camera from NINA to connect to APPM (or whatever), and then reconnect to NINA.  So handy for NINA users, but not implying NINA was a requirement for ASTAP.

 

Unlike mounts, cameras can connect to only one application at a time.

 

Linwood


Re: AP1100 coming, least hassle plate solver?

 

>>> If APPM will be able to platesolve using ASTAP directly, and I have an ASCOM camera (which APPM can also use) then no other intermediate software (SGP, NINA, etc.) is needed?

correct

This will be in the upcoming 1.9 release, which is not yet available

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 12:14 PM Jerome Allison <jallison@...> wrote:
Maybe that's what's confusing me. If APPM will be able to platesolve using ASTAP directly, and I have an ASCOM camera (which APPM can also use) then no other intermediate software (SGP, NINA, etc.) is needed?



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


Re: AP1100 coming, least hassle plate solver?

 

Maybe that's what's confusing me. If APPM will be able to platesolve using ASTAP directly, and I have an ASCOM camera (which APPM can also use) then no other intermediate software (SGP, NINA, etc.) is needed?


Re: AP1100 coming, least hassle plate solver?

Bill Long
 

ASTAP support comes in V1.9 of APCC. Until then I use SkyX. SGP is another option.


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Jerome Allison <jallison@...>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 10:54 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] AP1100 coming, least hassle plate solver?
 
I have not done any modeling yet, and I'm not sure I completely understand the software chain involved, but It seems it would have been nice to include Leonardo Orazi's "Voyager" during this development.:

Voyager – Astrophotography Automation Software (starkeeper.it)

Jerome


Re: AP1100 coming, least hassle plate solver?

 
Edited

I have not done any modeling yet, and I'm not sure I completely understand the software chain involved, but It seems it would have been nice to include Leonardo Orazi's "Voyager" during the new APPM version development.:

Voyager – Astrophotography Automation Software (starkeeper.it)

Jerome


Re: NINA and AP1200

Bill Long
 

Voyager and NINA both have very active development. The older apps like Maxim, SGP, and SkyX have much longer cycles between updates. 


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of ap@... <ap@...>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 10:04 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] NINA and AP1200
 
  • How it compares with any given other app is a highly subjective assessment. NINA has some features that other apps don't have, and NINA does not have some features that some other apps have. What matters out of all that depends on your particular needs and way of operating.

 

I’ll offer a few associated comments (I am not part of the NINA team).

 

Most of the apps you mentioned are … let’s call them venerable.  They have a long history, a large-ish installed base, and a fairly slow development cycle (I’m sure some developers may disagree, but just maintaining backward compatibility with a large base forces a certain slowness on the processes, but even so some seem really lethargic as though the developers just lost energy).

 

NINA is developing fast, the nightly version with the advance sequencer changes rapidly, based on real use by both the developers and fairly real time feedback on discord (and elsewhere).  Fast does not always equal better, but it does mean that NINA will incorporate new features or techniques more rapidly than you are likely to see them in its older cousins.  This newness also means it may not have features that have been around for ages in other programs, that might not have been considered useful to these developers.  Since it is not a commercial product they are not really trying to satisfy every SGP or TSX user’s likes, only their own (or what they think useful).  Personally I think this is good, making just another SGP is rather pointless, just buy SGP (as an example).

 

Developing fast also means there is a certain onus on the user to keep up, especially if you are using the nightlies (which honestly most people may want, as the features are great).  If you upgrade to clear some bugs, you will also find differences in the UI, or in how triggers work, from the last time you tried it.  I’m coping with that now as I was without a mount for a couple months due to a repair.  And frankly the documentation on changes is present, but not terribly easy to find and digest for a user.  Some people love this fast changing environment, some will hate it.  Only you know which camp you are in.

 

It also has a very different support paradigm. Most of us are used to forums for user-to-user support, or email/phone for vendors.  Discord takes some getting used to.  It works, but it is a bit of a paradigm change you need to come prepared to learn.

 

FWIW.

 

Linwood


Re: NINA and AP1200

ap@CaptivePhotons.com
 

  • How it compares with any given other app is a highly subjective assessment. NINA has some features that other apps don't have, and NINA does not have some features that some other apps have. What matters out of all that depends on your particular needs and way of operating.

 

I’ll offer a few associated comments (I am not part of the NINA team).

 

Most of the apps you mentioned are … let’s call them venerable.  They have a long history, a large-ish installed base, and a fairly slow development cycle (I’m sure some developers may disagree, but just maintaining backward compatibility with a large base forces a certain slowness on the processes, but even so some seem really lethargic as though the developers just lost energy).

 

NINA is developing fast, the nightly version with the advance sequencer changes rapidly, based on real use by both the developers and fairly real time feedback on discord (and elsewhere).  Fast does not always equal better, but it does mean that NINA will incorporate new features or techniques more rapidly than you are likely to see them in its older cousins.  This newness also means it may not have features that have been around for ages in other programs, that might not have been considered useful to these developers.  Since it is not a commercial product they are not really trying to satisfy every SGP or TSX user’s likes, only their own (or what they think useful).  Personally I think this is good, making just another SGP is rather pointless, just buy SGP (as an example).

 

Developing fast also means there is a certain onus on the user to keep up, especially if you are using the nightlies (which honestly most people may want, as the features are great).  If you upgrade to clear some bugs, you will also find differences in the UI, or in how triggers work, from the last time you tried it.  I’m coping with that now as I was without a mount for a couple months due to a repair.  And frankly the documentation on changes is present, but not terribly easy to find and digest for a user.  Some people love this fast changing environment, some will hate it.  Only you know which camp you are in.

 

It also has a very different support paradigm. Most of us are used to forums for user-to-user support, or email/phone for vendors.  Discord takes some getting used to.  It works, but it is a bit of a paradigm change you need to come prepared to learn.

 

FWIW.

 

Linwood

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