Date   

Re: AP 105Traveler and a Daystar ATM H-Alpha filter troubles

CaptMax
 

I appreciate all the help everyone, thank you. This is one of the early Daystar filters back when Del Woods built them individually himself. It has the nice German red glass ERF filter on the objective and uses 110V for the heater and filter adjustment. Here are a few pics I found online while researching my problem. I think I have a better idea now and will try again tomorrow or this weekend. I will post any progress. 
CaptMax


Re: Imaging in the Wind

W Hilmo
 

Thanks for that.

 

It looks like all of the rigidity is from guy wires, correct?

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Robert Chozick via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2021 4:26 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

 

 

Picture of wind shelter 

Robert 

 



On Jul 22, 2021, at 5:45 PM, Robert Chozick via groups.io <rchozick@...> wrote:

The temporary conduit solution works very well and is anchored with stakes and ropes. We use this at the Okie Tex star party and get gusts close to 60 miles an hour all the time setting up for a weeks time. You can set up the conduit and tarp shelter in less than an hour and it’s stores in a small area. I will find some pictures and send them. 

Robert 

 



On Jul 22, 2021, at 3:40 PM, W Hilmo <y.groups@...> wrote:



I think so, too.

 

The problem is that my wife would prefer if I not sink fence posts into concrete for a temporary solution.  My fear is that without a really solid anchor, our wind would simply blow it away.  We’ve been seeing 30ish mph for the last couple of weeks, but it can get significantly higher than that with little warning.

 

Also, if the fence were upwind, which is would need to be to function, any wind strong enough to move it, would blow it right into the scope.

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Robert Chozick via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2021 11:25 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

 

A simple fence enclosure model would help greatly. 

Robert 

 




On Jul 22, 2021, at 1:04 PM, W Hilmo <y.groups@...> wrote:



I just wanted to follow up and say that using the motorhome as a wind block made a huge difference.

 

Based on the below results with the 175 refractor, I assume at this point that the mount itself is probably not the issue.  I have the rig set up on ground that is quite solid, and am using the 10” diameter portable field pier.  The pier height is 32” from the ground.

 

I’m wondering if the issue is that I leave the mount set up on the pier all the time.  In the last couple of weeks, our temperature has varied between 45F and 115F.  I suspect that the thermal cycling may affect the turn buckles.  It seems like they could be tighter than they are (although I find that if I tighten too much, it bends the hooks at the end of the turn buckles so that they open up).  I don’t adjust them often because I have a really good APPM model, and would need to recreate it each time.

 

I have plans for an observatory with a proper pier with a deep underground footing, but that won’t be until sometime next year at the earliest.  I’m going to need to find a temporary solution for between now and then. 

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of W Hilmo
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:44 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

 

Interesting.  If I can get tracking like you are seeing, that would be great.  If I unplug the encoders, I’ll either need to set up guiding or program a PEM curve.

 

Out of curiosity, what you are using for a pier?  I am using the portable field pier, and if the whole thing is shaking, perhaps I could tighten the turnbuckles a bit.


Oh, and one other thing that may be interesting, or may be nothing, I never get tight stars that are elongated.  I either get tight, round stars, or I get big elongated blobs.  I also get satellite lots and lots of satellite trails, and they are generally straight lines.  I was thinking that these satellites just happened to coincide with some strong gusts.

 

-Wade

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roland Christen via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:32 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

 

You can unplug the encoders and see what you get.

 

I got 30mph wind gusts here last couple of days with my 175 refractor on a 1600 encoder mount. Got round stars. Was watching the autoguider graph and saw only 1 arc sec or so deviations during a gust.

 

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: W Hilmo <y.groups@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Jul 20, 2021 1:25 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

I've been doing a bunch of experimenting to transition from guided imaging with an SCT, to unguided imaging with a first class refractor.  Coincident to this, I'm imaging in a particularly windy area, which I moved to a few months before I received my AP130GTX.  Previously, I lived in an area with lots of overcast, but little wind.  It was also sheltered by being completely surrounded by forest.  My current location is wide open and completely unsheltered from the wind.

As mentioned, the scope is an AP130GTX.  The mount is an AP1600 with Absolute Encoders.  I'm finding that on calm nights (which are rare this time of year), I get nice, round stars at 10 minutes unguided.  With our typical winds, which are around 30mph over night, I get blobby and elongated stars.  Last night was windy, so the subs were all soft, with poor eccentricity.  I'm trying to determine how much of my soft stars are the the result of turbulence higher up, versus the mount and scope getting buffeted by the wind.

When I was blinking through the subs, I found the image that I've attached below.  It's interesting because there are crossing satellite trails at very different angles, that show signs of significant vibration.  I am guessing that what is happening here, is that the system is getting buffeted by winds, and the jaggies are due to the absolute encoders trying to quickly make corrections.  But I would be interested in other thoughts.

For tonight, I'm going to image the same field, but I've parked my motorhome up wind of the mount to act as a block.  The motorhome is parked 90 degrees to the prevailing wind, and is as close as I can get it while still keeping the roof at about 20 degrees elevation from the scope.  We are forecast for similar winds tonight, and the wind today seems consistent with yesterday.  I'll be curious to see if the results improve.  I'm not sure yet if turbulence as wind goes over and around the motorhome will be more than offset by sheltering the mount.

I am planning for an observatory, and have been thinking all along of a roll-off roof.  I suppose that if tonight's data looks good, perhaps I should be thinking about a dome.  Since I'm not planning on building the observatory until next year, I am also planning on experimenting with different wind blocks (presuming I can find something less than the motorhome, which can stand up to our winds on a regular basis).

If anyone else has dealt with this, I would be interested in how people have dealt with this.  I suppose that I could switch to only wide field imaging during the windiest times of the year, but if possible, I would like to mitigate things.

-Wade


--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics

Attachments:

Attachments:


Re: Imaging in the Wind

Robert Chozick
 


Picture of wind shelter 
Robert 


On Jul 22, 2021, at 5:45 PM, Robert Chozick via groups.io <rchozick@...> wrote:

The temporary conduit solution works very well and is anchored with stakes and ropes. We use this at the Okie Tex star party and get gusts close to 60 miles an hour all the time setting up for a weeks time. You can set up the conduit and tarp shelter in less than an hour and it’s stores in a small area. I will find some pictures and send them. 

Robert 


On Jul 22, 2021, at 3:40 PM, W Hilmo <y.groups@...> wrote:



I think so, too.

 

The problem is that my wife would prefer if I not sink fence posts into concrete for a temporary solution.  My fear is that without a really solid anchor, our wind would simply blow it away.  We’ve been seeing 30ish mph for the last couple of weeks, but it can get significantly higher than that with little warning.

 

Also, if the fence were upwind, which is would need to be to function, any wind strong enough to move it, would blow it right into the scope.

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Robert Chozick via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2021 11:25 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

 

A simple fence enclosure model would help greatly. 

Robert 

 



On Jul 22, 2021, at 1:04 PM, W Hilmo <y.groups@...> wrote:



I just wanted to follow up and say that using the motorhome as a wind block made a huge difference.

 

Based on the below results with the 175 refractor, I assume at this point that the mount itself is probably not the issue.  I have the rig set up on ground that is quite solid, and am using the 10” diameter portable field pier.  The pier height is 32” from the ground.

 

I’m wondering if the issue is that I leave the mount set up on the pier all the time.  In the last couple of weeks, our temperature has varied between 45F and 115F.  I suspect that the thermal cycling may affect the turn buckles.  It seems like they could be tighter than they are (although I find that if I tighten too much, it bends the hooks at the end of the turn buckles so that they open up).  I don’t adjust them often because I have a really good APPM model, and would need to recreate it each time.

 

I have plans for an observatory with a proper pier with a deep underground footing, but that won’t be until sometime next year at the earliest.  I’m going to need to find a temporary solution for between now and then. 

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of W Hilmo
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:44 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

 

Interesting.  If I can get tracking like you are seeing, that would be great.  If I unplug the encoders, I’ll either need to set up guiding or program a PEM curve.

 

Out of curiosity, what you are using for a pier?  I am using the portable field pier, and if the whole thing is shaking, perhaps I could tighten the turnbuckles a bit.


Oh, and one other thing that may be interesting, or may be nothing, I never get tight stars that are elongated.  I either get tight, round stars, or I get big elongated blobs.  I also get satellite lots and lots of satellite trails, and they are generally straight lines.  I was thinking that these satellites just happened to coincide with some strong gusts.

 

-Wade

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roland Christen via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:32 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

 

You can unplug the encoders and see what you get.

 

I got 30mph wind gusts here last couple of days with my 175 refractor on a 1600 encoder mount. Got round stars. Was watching the autoguider graph and saw only 1 arc sec or so deviations during a gust.

 

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: W Hilmo <y.groups@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Jul 20, 2021 1:25 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

I've been doing a bunch of experimenting to transition from guided imaging with an SCT, to unguided imaging with a first class refractor.  Coincident to this, I'm imaging in a particularly windy area, which I moved to a few months before I received my AP130GTX.  Previously, I lived in an area with lots of overcast, but little wind.  It was also sheltered by being completely surrounded by forest.  My current location is wide open and completely unsheltered from the wind.

As mentioned, the scope is an AP130GTX.  The mount is an AP1600 with Absolute Encoders.  I'm finding that on calm nights (which are rare this time of year), I get nice, round stars at 10 minutes unguided.  With our typical winds, which are around 30mph over night, I get blobby and elongated stars.  Last night was windy, so the subs were all soft, with poor eccentricity.  I'm trying to determine how much of my soft stars are the the result of turbulence higher up, versus the mount and scope getting buffeted by the wind.

When I was blinking through the subs, I found the image that I've attached below.  It's interesting because there are crossing satellite trails at very different angles, that show signs of significant vibration.  I am guessing that what is happening here, is that the system is getting buffeted by winds, and the jaggies are due to the absolute encoders trying to quickly make corrections.  But I would be interested in other thoughts.

For tonight, I'm going to image the same field, but I've parked my motorhome up wind of the mount to act as a block.  The motorhome is parked 90 degrees to the prevailing wind, and is as close as I can get it while still keeping the roof at about 20 degrees elevation from the scope.  We are forecast for similar winds tonight, and the wind today seems consistent with yesterday.  I'll be curious to see if the results improve.  I'm not sure yet if turbulence as wind goes over and around the motorhome will be more than offset by sheltering the mount.

I am planning for an observatory, and have been thinking all along of a roll-off roof.  I suppose that if tonight's data looks good, perhaps I should be thinking about a dome.  Since I'm not planning on building the observatory until next year, I am also planning on experimenting with different wind blocks (presuming I can find something less than the motorhome, which can stand up to our winds on a regular basis).

If anyone else has dealt with this, I would be interested in how people have dealt with this.  I suppose that I could switch to only wide field imaging during the windiest times of the year, but if possible, I would like to mitigate things.

-Wade


--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics

Attachments:


Re: AP 105Traveler and a Daystar ATM H-Alpha filter troubles

Dale Ghent
 

This, but also put a 2" IR cut filter on the front of the diagonal.

On Jul 22, 2021, at 18:34, Frost David <frosty5@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes. Its in the incorrect order from what I can see. Is it a Quantum? Quark? Cant tell from the pic.

I have a Quantum. It goes focuser > diagonal > Quantum (with a 4x Powermate attached to the endplates) > eyepiece or camera. No spacers of any kind. Reaches focus perfectly. The Powermate screws apart into two pieces, one goes on each side of the Quantum filter and attach to its endplates. One end in the focuser, one end is for eyepieces or cameras.

Or just contact Daystar. They are extremely helpful. There are diagrams somewhere on their website…I had to find them since I did the same thing the first time too. Cant find them right now, and there seem to be a bunch of broken links on their pages.


David



On Jul 22, 2021, at 5:02 PM, CaptMax <captmax@att.net> wrote:

I am struggling to get a Daystar H-Alpha filter working with my 105 Traveler. The problem is bringing it in focus. I am using the ERF red glass filter with this as well. Pretty sure it is due to incorrect focal length or the fact that it needs to be operated at an f30. Has anyone had experience playing with one of these on a Traveler? Any insight is greatly appreciated, thank-you for any and all replies.
CaptMax <BD1D6E0B-912F-410D-8A31-72BA958433DD.jpeg>


Re: AP 105Traveler and a Daystar ATM H-Alpha filter troubles

Anthony DAngelo
 

This is how I have setup on a Brandon 94


On Jul 22, 2021, at 6:03 PM, CaptMax <captmax@...> wrote:

I am struggling to get a Daystar H-Alpha filter working with my 105 Traveler. The problem is bringing it in focus. I am using the ERF red glass filter with this as well. Pretty sure it is due to incorrect focal length or the fact that it needs to be operated at an f30. Has anyone had experience playing with one of these on a Traveler? Any insight is greatly appreciated, thank-you for any and all replies. 
CaptMax 
<BD1D6E0B-912F-410D-8A31-72BA958433DD.jpeg>


Re: AP 105Traveler and a Daystar ATM H-Alpha filter troubles

Anthony DAngelo
 

It appears you may be using Barlow wrong,if it is a televue Barlow the nosepiece unscrews and you should be able to focus better.

On Jul 22, 2021, at 6:03 PM, CaptMax <captmax@...> wrote:

I am struggling to get a Daystar H-Alpha filter working with my 105 Traveler. The problem is bringing it in focus. I am using the ERF red glass filter with this as well. Pretty sure it is due to incorrect focal length or the fact that it needs to be operated at an f30. Has anyone had experience playing with one of these on a Traveler? Any insight is greatly appreciated, thank-you for any and all replies. 
CaptMax 
<BD1D6E0B-912F-410D-8A31-72BA958433DD.jpeg>


Re: Imaging in the Wind

Robert Chozick
 

The temporary conduit solution works very well and is anchored with stakes and ropes. We use this at the Okie Tex star party and get gusts close to 60 miles an hour all the time setting up for a weeks time. You can set up the conduit and tarp shelter in less than an hour and it’s stores in a small area. I will find some pictures and send them. 

Robert 


On Jul 22, 2021, at 3:40 PM, W Hilmo <y.groups@...> wrote:



I think so, too.

 

The problem is that my wife would prefer if I not sink fence posts into concrete for a temporary solution.  My fear is that without a really solid anchor, our wind would simply blow it away.  We’ve been seeing 30ish mph for the last couple of weeks, but it can get significantly higher than that with little warning.

 

Also, if the fence were upwind, which is would need to be to function, any wind strong enough to move it, would blow it right into the scope.

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Robert Chozick via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2021 11:25 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

 

A simple fence enclosure model would help greatly. 

Robert 

 



On Jul 22, 2021, at 1:04 PM, W Hilmo <y.groups@...> wrote:



I just wanted to follow up and say that using the motorhome as a wind block made a huge difference.

 

Based on the below results with the 175 refractor, I assume at this point that the mount itself is probably not the issue.  I have the rig set up on ground that is quite solid, and am using the 10” diameter portable field pier.  The pier height is 32” from the ground.

 

I’m wondering if the issue is that I leave the mount set up on the pier all the time.  In the last couple of weeks, our temperature has varied between 45F and 115F.  I suspect that the thermal cycling may affect the turn buckles.  It seems like they could be tighter than they are (although I find that if I tighten too much, it bends the hooks at the end of the turn buckles so that they open up).  I don’t adjust them often because I have a really good APPM model, and would need to recreate it each time.

 

I have plans for an observatory with a proper pier with a deep underground footing, but that won’t be until sometime next year at the earliest.  I’m going to need to find a temporary solution for between now and then. 

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of W Hilmo
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:44 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

 

Interesting.  If I can get tracking like you are seeing, that would be great.  If I unplug the encoders, I’ll either need to set up guiding or program a PEM curve.

 

Out of curiosity, what you are using for a pier?  I am using the portable field pier, and if the whole thing is shaking, perhaps I could tighten the turnbuckles a bit.


Oh, and one other thing that may be interesting, or may be nothing, I never get tight stars that are elongated.  I either get tight, round stars, or I get big elongated blobs.  I also get satellite lots and lots of satellite trails, and they are generally straight lines.  I was thinking that these satellites just happened to coincide with some strong gusts.

 

-Wade

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roland Christen via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:32 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

 

You can unplug the encoders and see what you get.

 

I got 30mph wind gusts here last couple of days with my 175 refractor on a 1600 encoder mount. Got round stars. Was watching the autoguider graph and saw only 1 arc sec or so deviations during a gust.

 

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: W Hilmo <y.groups@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Jul 20, 2021 1:25 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

I've been doing a bunch of experimenting to transition from guided imaging with an SCT, to unguided imaging with a first class refractor.  Coincident to this, I'm imaging in a particularly windy area, which I moved to a few months before I received my AP130GTX.  Previously, I lived in an area with lots of overcast, but little wind.  It was also sheltered by being completely surrounded by forest.  My current location is wide open and completely unsheltered from the wind.

As mentioned, the scope is an AP130GTX.  The mount is an AP1600 with Absolute Encoders.  I'm finding that on calm nights (which are rare this time of year), I get nice, round stars at 10 minutes unguided.  With our typical winds, which are around 30mph over night, I get blobby and elongated stars.  Last night was windy, so the subs were all soft, with poor eccentricity.  I'm trying to determine how much of my soft stars are the the result of turbulence higher up, versus the mount and scope getting buffeted by the wind.

When I was blinking through the subs, I found the image that I've attached below.  It's interesting because there are crossing satellite trails at very different angles, that show signs of significant vibration.  I am guessing that what is happening here, is that the system is getting buffeted by winds, and the jaggies are due to the absolute encoders trying to quickly make corrections.  But I would be interested in other thoughts.

For tonight, I'm going to image the same field, but I've parked my motorhome up wind of the mount to act as a block.  The motorhome is parked 90 degrees to the prevailing wind, and is as close as I can get it while still keeping the roof at about 20 degrees elevation from the scope.  We are forecast for similar winds tonight, and the wind today seems consistent with yesterday.  I'll be curious to see if the results improve.  I'm not sure yet if turbulence as wind goes over and around the motorhome will be more than offset by sheltering the mount.

I am planning for an observatory, and have been thinking all along of a roll-off roof.  I suppose that if tonight's data looks good, perhaps I should be thinking about a dome.  Since I'm not planning on building the observatory until next year, I am also planning on experimenting with different wind blocks (presuming I can find something less than the motorhome, which can stand up to our winds on a regular basis).

If anyone else has dealt with this, I would be interested in how people have dealt with this.  I suppose that I could switch to only wide field imaging during the windiest times of the year, but if possible, I would like to mitigate things.

-Wade


--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics

Attachments:


Re: AP 105Traveler and a Daystar ATM H-Alpha filter troubles

Frost David
 

Yes.  Its in the incorrect order from what I can see.  Is it a Quantum?  Quark?  Cant tell from the pic.

I have a Quantum.  It goes focuser > diagonal > Quantum (with a 4x Powermate attached to the endplates) > eyepiece or camera.  No spacers of any kind.  Reaches focus perfectly.  The Powermate screws apart into two pieces, one goes on each side of the Quantum filter and attach to its endplates.  One end in the focuser, one end is for eyepieces or cameras.

Or just contact Daystar.  They are extremely helpful.  There are diagrams somewhere on their website…I had to find them since I did the same thing the first time too.  Cant find them right now, and there seem to be a bunch of broken links on their pages.


David



On Jul 22, 2021, at 5:02 PM, CaptMax <captmax@...> wrote:

I am struggling to get a Daystar H-Alpha filter working with my 105 Traveler. The problem is bringing it in focus. I am using the ERF red glass filter with this as well. Pretty sure it is due to incorrect focal length or the fact that it needs to be operated at an f30. Has anyone had experience playing with one of these on a Traveler? Any insight is greatly appreciated, thank-you for any and all replies. 
CaptMax <BD1D6E0B-912F-410D-8A31-72BA958433DD.jpeg>


RAll-sky camera traciing

Mike Dodd
 

I have a ZWO ASI camera that came with a fisheye lens. I've built a wooden bracket to hold the camera on top of the observatory roll-off roof, and this works OK for relatively short exposures (e.g., Geminids last winter).

I would like to capture the summer Milky Way, but I'm concerned that a stack of 1-minute exposures won't go deep enough.

Should I devise a way to mount the camera on my AP1200 + TMB130 OTA so it points straight up while the scope is pointed at Polaris, and let the mount track during a series of longer exposures? Or should I put it on the roof and get a string of 1-minute exposures?

Thanks for all advice.

--- Mike


AP 105Traveler and a Daystar ATM H-Alpha filter troubles

CaptMax
 

I am struggling to get a Daystar H-Alpha filter working with my 105 Traveler. The problem is bringing it in focus. I am using the ERF red glass filter with this as well. Pretty sure it is due to incorrect focal length or the fact that it needs to be operated at an f30. Has anyone had experience playing with one of these on a Traveler? Any insight is greatly appreciated, thank-you for any and all replies. 
CaptMax 


Re: Imaging in the Wind

Joseph Beyer
 

Thinking about the sailing on SF Bay in a stiff wind, I’m wondering if the cables on the pier are a big part of the problem.  Given a high enough wind velocity they would likely vibrate as the mast stay cables do on a sailboat. In that case blocking the wind as you’re already attempting to do should help the problem.  


Re: Imaging in the Wind

W Hilmo
 

I think so, too.

 

The problem is that my wife would prefer if I not sink fence posts into concrete for a temporary solution.  My fear is that without a really solid anchor, our wind would simply blow it away.  We’ve been seeing 30ish mph for the last couple of weeks, but it can get significantly higher than that with little warning.

 

Also, if the fence were upwind, which is would need to be to function, any wind strong enough to move it, would blow it right into the scope.

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Robert Chozick via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2021 11:25 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

 

A simple fence enclosure model would help greatly. 

Robert 

 



On Jul 22, 2021, at 1:04 PM, W Hilmo <y.groups@...> wrote:



I just wanted to follow up and say that using the motorhome as a wind block made a huge difference.

 

Based on the below results with the 175 refractor, I assume at this point that the mount itself is probably not the issue.  I have the rig set up on ground that is quite solid, and am using the 10” diameter portable field pier.  The pier height is 32” from the ground.

 

I’m wondering if the issue is that I leave the mount set up on the pier all the time.  In the last couple of weeks, our temperature has varied between 45F and 115F.  I suspect that the thermal cycling may affect the turn buckles.  It seems like they could be tighter than they are (although I find that if I tighten too much, it bends the hooks at the end of the turn buckles so that they open up).  I don’t adjust them often because I have a really good APPM model, and would need to recreate it each time.

 

I have plans for an observatory with a proper pier with a deep underground footing, but that won’t be until sometime next year at the earliest.  I’m going to need to find a temporary solution for between now and then. 

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of W Hilmo
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:44 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

 

Interesting.  If I can get tracking like you are seeing, that would be great.  If I unplug the encoders, I’ll either need to set up guiding or program a PEM curve.

 

Out of curiosity, what you are using for a pier?  I am using the portable field pier, and if the whole thing is shaking, perhaps I could tighten the turnbuckles a bit.


Oh, and one other thing that may be interesting, or may be nothing, I never get tight stars that are elongated.  I either get tight, round stars, or I get big elongated blobs.  I also get satellite lots and lots of satellite trails, and they are generally straight lines.  I was thinking that these satellites just happened to coincide with some strong gusts.

 

-Wade

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roland Christen via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:32 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

 

You can unplug the encoders and see what you get.

 

I got 30mph wind gusts here last couple of days with my 175 refractor on a 1600 encoder mount. Got round stars. Was watching the autoguider graph and saw only 1 arc sec or so deviations during a gust.

 

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: W Hilmo <y.groups@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Jul 20, 2021 1:25 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

I've been doing a bunch of experimenting to transition from guided imaging with an SCT, to unguided imaging with a first class refractor.  Coincident to this, I'm imaging in a particularly windy area, which I moved to a few months before I received my AP130GTX.  Previously, I lived in an area with lots of overcast, but little wind.  It was also sheltered by being completely surrounded by forest.  My current location is wide open and completely unsheltered from the wind.

As mentioned, the scope is an AP130GTX.  The mount is an AP1600 with Absolute Encoders.  I'm finding that on calm nights (which are rare this time of year), I get nice, round stars at 10 minutes unguided.  With our typical winds, which are around 30mph over night, I get blobby and elongated stars.  Last night was windy, so the subs were all soft, with poor eccentricity.  I'm trying to determine how much of my soft stars are the the result of turbulence higher up, versus the mount and scope getting buffeted by the wind.

When I was blinking through the subs, I found the image that I've attached below.  It's interesting because there are crossing satellite trails at very different angles, that show signs of significant vibration.  I am guessing that what is happening here, is that the system is getting buffeted by winds, and the jaggies are due to the absolute encoders trying to quickly make corrections.  But I would be interested in other thoughts.

For tonight, I'm going to image the same field, but I've parked my motorhome up wind of the mount to act as a block.  The motorhome is parked 90 degrees to the prevailing wind, and is as close as I can get it while still keeping the roof at about 20 degrees elevation from the scope.  We are forecast for similar winds tonight, and the wind today seems consistent with yesterday.  I'll be curious to see if the results improve.  I'm not sure yet if turbulence as wind goes over and around the motorhome will be more than offset by sheltering the mount.

I am planning for an observatory, and have been thinking all along of a roll-off roof.  I suppose that if tonight's data looks good, perhaps I should be thinking about a dome.  Since I'm not planning on building the observatory until next year, I am also planning on experimenting with different wind blocks (presuming I can find something less than the motorhome, which can stand up to our winds on a regular basis).

If anyone else has dealt with this, I would be interested in how people have dealt with this.  I suppose that I could switch to only wide field imaging during the windiest times of the year, but if possible, I would like to mitigate things.

-Wade


--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics

Attachments:


Re: Imaging in the Wind

W Hilmo
 

I am taking 10 minute, unguided exposures at 0.88 arc seconds per pixel, so I expect that my polar alignment is good – or at least consistent with the tracking model.

 

I’ve only recently switched to unguided imaging, and I’ve only checked the polar alignment a couple of times and made a new model after adjustment.  Prior to this spring, I was using a different scope and guiding.  In that case, I checked the polar alignment periodically.  Certainly, during the winter with freeze/thaw cycles, I doubt that I could productively do unguided imaging with this setup as is.

 

On a whim, I did some guided imaging a few weeks ago, and got the exact same results as I get unguided (good results up to about 15-20mph wind, but poor results with 30+ and gusting).  I suspect that if the rig is vibrating in the wind, the frequency is far too high for the guider to deal with.

 

My soil is a combination of rock and clay, and seems to be pretty stable.  It is noticeably more stable than the ground at my previous property.

 

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Beyer
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2021 11:55 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

 

This brings up an interesting point. My setup is similar to Dale’s in the respect that I leave the gear/tripod out for a couple weeks at a time. The soil is nearly all clay and continues to move all summer long. On first setup I polar align as closely as possible with Smart Cap then run a 60 point APPM routine.  I’ve always assumed the model will always be valid as long as I polar align to a similar level of precision each night before imaging.  My results tend to support this. 


Adjusting the tension of the turn buckles on the pier before imaging should have no more effect that my yard’s clay soil.  As long as the mount is polar aligned to a level close to where it was when a model was run should have little impact on guiding, correct?


Re: Imaging in the Wind

Joseph Beyer
 

This brings up an interesting point. My setup is similar to Dale’s in the respect that I leave the gear/tripod out for a couple weeks at a time. The soil is nearly all clay and continues to move all summer long. On first setup I polar align as closely as possible with Smart Cap then run a 60 point APPM routine.  I’ve always assumed the model will always be valid as long as I polar align to a similar level of precision each night before imaging.  My results tend to support this. 


Adjusting the tension of the turn buckles on the pier before imaging should have no more effect that my yard’s clay soil.  As long as the mount is polar aligned to a level close to where it was when a model was run should have little impact on guiding, correct?


Re: Imaging in the Wind

Dale Ghent
 

How often do you PA? Do you spot check it at all?

I leave mine out for days at a time, and the tri-pier (it's an A-P Eagle) sits on pavers that are sunk into the ground. The ground swells and subsides subtly from day to day; at least the surface of it does. This means I need to touch up my PA every night before imaging as the PA can be off by several arc minutes depending on whether was a large enough rain or drying cycle since the last time I imaged. Soil type and other factors influence how much of a problem this is for any given person. This issue is noticeably worse in the winter when there's a freeze/thaw cycle going on.

On Jul 22, 2021, at 14:04, W Hilmo <y.groups@hilmo.net> wrote:

I just wanted to follow up and say that using the motorhome as a wind block made a huge difference.

Based on the below results with the 175 refractor, I assume at this point that the mount itself is probably not the issue. I have the rig set up on ground that is quite solid, and am using the 10” diameter portable field pier. The pier height is 32” from the ground.

I’m wondering if the issue is that I leave the mount set up on the pier all the time. In the last couple of weeks, our temperature has varied between 45F and 115F. I suspect that the thermal cycling may affect the turn buckles. It seems like they could be tighter than they are (although I find that if I tighten too much, it bends the hooks at the end of the turn buckles so that they open up). I don’t adjust them often because I have a really good APPM model, and would need to recreate it each time.

I have plans for an observatory with a proper pier with a deep underground footing, but that won’t be until sometime next year at the earliest. I’m going to need to find a temporary solution for between now and then.

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of W Hilmo
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:44 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

Interesting. If I can get tracking like you are seeing, that would be great. If I unplug the encoders, I’ll either need to set up guiding or program a PEM curve.

Out of curiosity, what you are using for a pier? I am using the portable field pier, and if the whole thing is shaking, perhaps I could tighten the turnbuckles a bit.

Oh, and one other thing that may be interesting, or may be nothing, I never get tight stars that are elongated. I either get tight, round stars, or I get big elongated blobs. I also get satellite lots and lots of satellite trails, and they are generally straight lines. I was thinking that these satellites just happened to coincide with some strong gusts.

-Wade

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roland Christen via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:32 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

You can unplug the encoders and see what you get.

I got 30mph wind gusts here last couple of days with my 175 refractor on a 1600 encoder mount. Got round stars. Was watching the autoguider graph and saw only 1 arc sec or so deviations during a gust.

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: W Hilmo <y.groups@hilmo.net>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Jul 20, 2021 1:25 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

I've been doing a bunch of experimenting to transition from guided imaging with an SCT, to unguided imaging with a first class refractor. Coincident to this, I'm imaging in a particularly windy area, which I moved to a few months before I received my AP130GTX. Previously, I lived in an area with lots of overcast, but little wind. It was also sheltered by being completely surrounded by forest. My current location is wide open and completely unsheltered from the wind.

As mentioned, the scope is an AP130GTX. The mount is an AP1600 with Absolute Encoders. I'm finding that on calm nights (which are rare this time of year), I get nice, round stars at 10 minutes unguided. With our typical winds, which are around 30mph over night, I get blobby and elongated stars. Last night was windy, so the subs were all soft, with poor eccentricity. I'm trying to determine how much of my soft stars are the the result of turbulence higher up, versus the mount and scope getting buffeted by the wind.

When I was blinking through the subs, I found the image that I've attached below. It's interesting because there are crossing satellite trails at very different angles, that show signs of significant vibration. I am guessing that what is happening here, is that the system is getting buffeted by winds, and the jaggies are due to the absolute encoders trying to quickly make corrections. But I would be interested in other thoughts.

For tonight, I'm going to image the same field, but I've parked my motorhome up wind of the mount to act as a block. The motorhome is parked 90 degrees to the prevailing wind, and is as close as I can get it while still keeping the roof at about 20 degrees elevation from the scope. We are forecast for similar winds tonight, and the wind today seems consistent with yesterday. I'll be curious to see if the results improve. I'm not sure yet if turbulence as wind goes over and around the motorhome will be more than offset by sheltering the mount.

I am planning for an observatory, and have been thinking all along of a roll-off roof. I suppose that if tonight's data looks good, perhaps I should be thinking about a dome. Since I'm not planning on building the observatory until next year, I am also planning on experimenting with different wind blocks (presuming I can find something less than the motorhome, which can stand up to our winds on a regular basis).

If anyone else has dealt with this, I would be interested in how people have dealt with this. I suppose that I could switch to only wide field imaging during the windiest times of the year, but if possible, I would like to mitigate things.

-Wade



--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics
Attachments:

• wind_gust.jpg


Re: Imaging in the Wind

Robert Chozick
 

A simple fence enclosure model would help greatly. 

Robert 


On Jul 22, 2021, at 1:04 PM, W Hilmo <y.groups@...> wrote:



I just wanted to follow up and say that using the motorhome as a wind block made a huge difference.

 

Based on the below results with the 175 refractor, I assume at this point that the mount itself is probably not the issue.  I have the rig set up on ground that is quite solid, and am using the 10” diameter portable field pier.  The pier height is 32” from the ground.

 

I’m wondering if the issue is that I leave the mount set up on the pier all the time.  In the last couple of weeks, our temperature has varied between 45F and 115F.  I suspect that the thermal cycling may affect the turn buckles.  It seems like they could be tighter than they are (although I find that if I tighten too much, it bends the hooks at the end of the turn buckles so that they open up).  I don’t adjust them often because I have a really good APPM model, and would need to recreate it each time.

 

I have plans for an observatory with a proper pier with a deep underground footing, but that won’t be until sometime next year at the earliest.  I’m going to need to find a temporary solution for between now and then. 

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of W Hilmo
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:44 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

 

Interesting.  If I can get tracking like you are seeing, that would be great.  If I unplug the encoders, I’ll either need to set up guiding or program a PEM curve.

 

Out of curiosity, what you are using for a pier?  I am using the portable field pier, and if the whole thing is shaking, perhaps I could tighten the turnbuckles a bit.


Oh, and one other thing that may be interesting, or may be nothing, I never get tight stars that are elongated.  I either get tight, round stars, or I get big elongated blobs.  I also get satellite lots and lots of satellite trails, and they are generally straight lines.  I was thinking that these satellites just happened to coincide with some strong gusts.

 

-Wade

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roland Christen via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:32 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

 

You can unplug the encoders and see what you get.

 

I got 30mph wind gusts here last couple of days with my 175 refractor on a 1600 encoder mount. Got round stars. Was watching the autoguider graph and saw only 1 arc sec or so deviations during a gust.

 

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: W Hilmo <y.groups@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Jul 20, 2021 1:25 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

I've been doing a bunch of experimenting to transition from guided imaging with an SCT, to unguided imaging with a first class refractor.  Coincident to this, I'm imaging in a particularly windy area, which I moved to a few months before I received my AP130GTX.  Previously, I lived in an area with lots of overcast, but little wind.  It was also sheltered by being completely surrounded by forest.  My current location is wide open and completely unsheltered from the wind.

As mentioned, the scope is an AP130GTX.  The mount is an AP1600 with Absolute Encoders.  I'm finding that on calm nights (which are rare this time of year), I get nice, round stars at 10 minutes unguided.  With our typical winds, which are around 30mph over night, I get blobby and elongated stars.  Last night was windy, so the subs were all soft, with poor eccentricity.  I'm trying to determine how much of my soft stars are the the result of turbulence higher up, versus the mount and scope getting buffeted by the wind.

When I was blinking through the subs, I found the image that I've attached below.  It's interesting because there are crossing satellite trails at very different angles, that show signs of significant vibration.  I am guessing that what is happening here, is that the system is getting buffeted by winds, and the jaggies are due to the absolute encoders trying to quickly make corrections.  But I would be interested in other thoughts.

For tonight, I'm going to image the same field, but I've parked my motorhome up wind of the mount to act as a block.  The motorhome is parked 90 degrees to the prevailing wind, and is as close as I can get it while still keeping the roof at about 20 degrees elevation from the scope.  We are forecast for similar winds tonight, and the wind today seems consistent with yesterday.  I'll be curious to see if the results improve.  I'm not sure yet if turbulence as wind goes over and around the motorhome will be more than offset by sheltering the mount.

I am planning for an observatory, and have been thinking all along of a roll-off roof.  I suppose that if tonight's data looks good, perhaps I should be thinking about a dome.  Since I'm not planning on building the observatory until next year, I am also planning on experimenting with different wind blocks (presuming I can find something less than the motorhome, which can stand up to our winds on a regular basis).

If anyone else has dealt with this, I would be interested in how people have dealt with this.  I suppose that I could switch to only wide field imaging during the windiest times of the year, but if possible, I would like to mitigate things.

-Wade


--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics

Attachments:


Re: Imaging in the Wind

W Hilmo
 

I just wanted to follow up and say that using the motorhome as a wind block made a huge difference.

 

Based on the below results with the 175 refractor, I assume at this point that the mount itself is probably not the issue.  I have the rig set up on ground that is quite solid, and am using the 10” diameter portable field pier.  The pier height is 32” from the ground.

 

I’m wondering if the issue is that I leave the mount set up on the pier all the time.  In the last couple of weeks, our temperature has varied between 45F and 115F.  I suspect that the thermal cycling may affect the turn buckles.  It seems like they could be tighter than they are (although I find that if I tighten too much, it bends the hooks at the end of the turn buckles so that they open up).  I don’t adjust them often because I have a really good APPM model, and would need to recreate it each time.

 

I have plans for an observatory with a proper pier with a deep underground footing, but that won’t be until sometime next year at the earliest.  I’m going to need to find a temporary solution for between now and then. 

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of W Hilmo
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:44 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

 

Interesting.  If I can get tracking like you are seeing, that would be great.  If I unplug the encoders, I’ll either need to set up guiding or program a PEM curve.

 

Out of curiosity, what you are using for a pier?  I am using the portable field pier, and if the whole thing is shaking, perhaps I could tighten the turnbuckles a bit.


Oh, and one other thing that may be interesting, or may be nothing, I never get tight stars that are elongated.  I either get tight, round stars, or I get big elongated blobs.  I also get satellite lots and lots of satellite trails, and they are generally straight lines.  I was thinking that these satellites just happened to coincide with some strong gusts.

 

-Wade

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roland Christen via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:32 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

 

You can unplug the encoders and see what you get.

 

I got 30mph wind gusts here last couple of days with my 175 refractor on a 1600 encoder mount. Got round stars. Was watching the autoguider graph and saw only 1 arc sec or so deviations during a gust.

 

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: W Hilmo <y.groups@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Jul 20, 2021 1:25 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Imaging in the Wind

I've been doing a bunch of experimenting to transition from guided imaging with an SCT, to unguided imaging with a first class refractor.  Coincident to this, I'm imaging in a particularly windy area, which I moved to a few months before I received my AP130GTX.  Previously, I lived in an area with lots of overcast, but little wind.  It was also sheltered by being completely surrounded by forest.  My current location is wide open and completely unsheltered from the wind.

As mentioned, the scope is an AP130GTX.  The mount is an AP1600 with Absolute Encoders.  I'm finding that on calm nights (which are rare this time of year), I get nice, round stars at 10 minutes unguided.  With our typical winds, which are around 30mph over night, I get blobby and elongated stars.  Last night was windy, so the subs were all soft, with poor eccentricity.  I'm trying to determine how much of my soft stars are the the result of turbulence higher up, versus the mount and scope getting buffeted by the wind.

When I was blinking through the subs, I found the image that I've attached below.  It's interesting because there are crossing satellite trails at very different angles, that show signs of significant vibration.  I am guessing that what is happening here, is that the system is getting buffeted by winds, and the jaggies are due to the absolute encoders trying to quickly make corrections.  But I would be interested in other thoughts.

For tonight, I'm going to image the same field, but I've parked my motorhome up wind of the mount to act as a block.  The motorhome is parked 90 degrees to the prevailing wind, and is as close as I can get it while still keeping the roof at about 20 degrees elevation from the scope.  We are forecast for similar winds tonight, and the wind today seems consistent with yesterday.  I'll be curious to see if the results improve.  I'm not sure yet if turbulence as wind goes over and around the motorhome will be more than offset by sheltering the mount.

I am planning for an observatory, and have been thinking all along of a roll-off roof.  I suppose that if tonight's data looks good, perhaps I should be thinking about a dome.  Since I'm not planning on building the observatory until next year, I am also planning on experimenting with different wind blocks (presuming I can find something less than the motorhome, which can stand up to our winds on a regular basis).

If anyone else has dealt with this, I would be interested in how people have dealt with this.  I suppose that I could switch to only wide field imaging during the windiest times of the year, but if possible, I would like to mitigate things.

-Wade


--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics

Attachments:


Re: AP 1200 guiding problem

Ray Gralak
 

Hi Peter,

I took a look at your logs. Your mount seems to be reacting correctly to the move commands sent to it by phd. That is, RA and Dec change when issued guider move commands. So, unless the clutches are slipping, you should probably post this issue to the phd group.

-Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Peter Bresler via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2021 1:32 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: [ap-gto] AP 1200 guiding problem

PHD guiding was failing after a couple of minutes on my 1200 with an OAG; first couple of minutes were OK;
message was unable to make DEC corrections. I re-calibrated a couple of times. Things got better with a guide
scope. Here are Dropbox links for the logs. Advice appreciated!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dzof5umeim4yw9o/ApccZip-Peter_Bresler-2021-07-22-003725.zip?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4whdi266po8jiso/Phd%20log.zip?dl=0


AP 1200 guiding problem

Peter Bresler
 

PHD guiding was failing after a couple of minutes on my 1200 with an OAG; first couple of minutes were OK; message was unable to make DEC corrections. I re-calibrated a couple of times. Things got better with a guide scope. Here are Dropbox links for the logs. Advice appreciated!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dzof5umeim4yw9o/ApccZip-Peter_Bresler-2021-07-22-003725.zip?dl=0
 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4whdi266po8jiso/Phd%20log.zip?dl=0


Re: AP1100 coming, least hassle plate solver?

ap@CaptivePhotons.com
 

Well, like I said before, you have a lot on your hands to get through as a first-time AP mount owner before you get to the point where you're creating models. I would not worry about it. APCC has been out for almost(?) a decade and I didn't bother with models until a year ago. I wish I hadn't waited for so long to do that, but not making them when you've got other things about the mount to learn and get down isn't going to kill you, either ;)
Hmmm... this time it may have sunk in. I used tPoint for polar align as well as models. I keep thinking I NEED to build a model.

I plan to guide. Not building a model for a while is fine. Thanks for the repetition, this time it sunk in.

Linwood

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