Date   

Re: Flexure Measurement - How Much is Too Much ?

Mike Dodd
 

On 6/22/2021 11:31 AM, M Hambrick wrote:
Hi Mike

Does your 1200 mount have encoders?
No, and it is my understanding that I cannot add encoders to it. I would love to be proven wrong.

--- Mike


Re: Flexure Measurement - How Much is Too Much ?

M Hambrick
 

Hi Mike

Does your 1200 mount have encoders ? I understand that these will take you to the next level and beyond as far as tracking goes, especially for permanent setups as you have. I can't remember exactly what combination is needed (Encoders, CP4, Keypad), but there was a discussion thread a while back where Roland talked about building a pointing model to allow unguided imaging. Maybe Roland can comment on this.

I already have a CP4 with my non A-E 1100 mount , and I plan to purchase a set of encoders as soon as my name is called on the wait list. I am also planning to upgrade my keypad as soon as they offer upgrades to existing keypad users.

Mike 


Re: Flexure Measurement - How Much is Too Much ?

Mike Dodd
 

On 6/21/2021 4:50 PM, Roland Christen via groups.io wrote:
To get really good images takes a lot of effort, very good tracking of
the main optics, and a steady and hyper-accurate mount.
Hello, Roland. I am very interested in this, and wonder if you would advise me if there's anything I can do to my 1200 mount, S/N 1200589, to improve tracking. I have the CP3 box, S/N 0374, and I installed the V-chip last year.

My first thought is APCC. Will APCC improve tracking on _any_ A-P mount, or just newer models? I've read your posts about unguided imaging using APCC, and this is very appealing to me, but I don't know if my mount can achieve that.

Is there anything in the CP4 box that will improve tracking? If not, I'd rather not spend the money on CP4.


Re: Flexure Measurement - How Much is Too Much ?

Jeffc
 

Fwiw.. Some time back I moved towards using OAGs. (e.g. ST-8300m + STi on SBIG OAG)  
At most focal lengths (less than 1100mm) I don't have a problem finding stars in the OAG with the STi camera.   
I've also used the Lumicon GEG OAG with a DSI-Pro guide camera.. worked pretty well; rarely had issues finding stars.

With the Mach2, I'm not even bothering with the OAG.   (I hope I no longer need to use guidescopes either, but if i did, i would probably look for an OAG compatible with the imaging camera.)

-jeff

On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 9:48 PM M Hambrick <mhambrick563@...> wrote:
Thanks for the link to your web site Mike. You have some really good information in there. 

I am going to try to get some more flexure measurements over a longer period of time next time we get a clear night here. I noticed in your example of differential flexure that you were getting shifts of multiple pixels. Although I only had one 10 minute subframe, the shift that I measured was much less than one pixel, and the stars in that image looked good.

I am trying to look at everything I can to try to improve my images. Until now I have concentrated all of my efforts on are focusing and guiding. I have not seen anything in my images so far to suggest that I have a problem with flexure, but I want to get an idea of how much there is.

Mike


Re: Flexure Measurement - How Much is Too Much ?

M Hambrick
 

Thanks for the link to your web site Mike. You have some really good information in there. 

I am going to try to get some more flexure measurements over a longer period of time next time we get a clear night here. I noticed in your example of differential flexure that you were getting shifts of multiple pixels. Although I only had one 10 minute subframe, the shift that I measured was much less than one pixel, and the stars in that image looked good.

I am trying to look at everything I can to try to improve my images. Until now I have concentrated all of my efforts on are focusing and guiding. I have not seen anything in my images so far to suggest that I have a problem with flexure, but I want to get an idea of how much there is.

Mike


Re: 1100GTO-AEL - Question about encoder setup process #Absolute_Encoders

 

The CP4 manual is presently being updated so that it is more up-to-date and will be released soon. We’ll let everyone know when the new version is available.

 

Clear Skies,

Marj Christen

Astro-Physics

11250 Forest Hills Road

Machesney Park, IL 61115

Phone: 815-282-1513

www.astro-physics.com

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Patrick Spencer
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2021 3:11 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] 1100GTO-AEL - Question about encoder setup process #Absolute_Encoders

 

Awesome, thanks so much Liam and Roland for the quick replies!

Patrick


Re: Sync with The Sky 6 Pro

Roland Christen
 


when finished following your
suggestions, can I still use Park 1 for shutdown?
The answer to that is YES.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Astrobob <imager1940@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jun 21, 2021 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Sync with The Sky 6 Pro

Hi Ray,
 
  1. In APCC, park the mount at its current position (it doesn't matter where).
    2. Loosen the mount's clutches and manually move the scope to the Park 3 position.
    3. In APCC, unpark the mount from Park 3.
    4. Try slewing to someplace in the sky using Sky6Pro.
    5. If the mount goes to the correct position, then recal on a star, or plate solve and recal, if you are imaging.

Because of my observatory setup, I need to Park at Park 1. I have no choice.
Should I follow your Park 3  advice above and then when finished following your
suggestions, can I still use Park 1 for shutdown?
 
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Re: Sync with The Sky 6 Pro

Astrobob
 

Hi Ray,

 

  1. In APCC, park the mount at its current position (it doesn't matter where).
    2. Loosen the mount's clutches and manually move the scope to the Park 3 position.
    3. In APCC, unpark the mount from Park 3.
    4. Try slewing to someplace in the sky using Sky6Pro.
    5. If the mount goes to the correct position, then recal on a star, or plate solve and recal, if you are imaging.

Because of my observatory setup, I need to Park at Park 1. I have no choice.

Should I follow your Park 3  advice above and then when finished following your

suggestions, can I still use Park 1 for shutdown?

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: Flexure Measurement - How Much is Too Much ?

Roland Christen
 

Looking good is one measurement. All the stars are round is comforting, and that's all that some want in their images. I have seen round stars in posted images on CN where people have imaged with mounts that have huge periodic errors, imaged unguided with those mounts, imaged with small short guide scopes etc., and had roundish stars. Broke all the rules and still had round stars. But if you look closely at full size you can see they lack sharpness and resolution, and most of them are out of focus because they also did not refocus critically each frame as the temp dropped. I compared one of my images of M57 with one I saw posted on CN. The stars were round on the CN image but they were 3 times as big and the resolution in the nebula was also really poor. Almost the same focal length, image scale and aperture!

To get really good images takes a lot of effort, very good tracking of the main optics, and a steady and hyper-accurate mount.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Dodd <mike@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Jun 21, 2021 3:15 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Flexure Measurement - How Much is Too Much ?

On 6/21/2021 3:29 PM, M Hambrick wrote:
> Roland has stated on multiple occasions that using a separate guide
> scope is not the ideal way to do guided imaging because of flexure. How
> much flexure is considered excessive ?

ANY flexure is too much! :-) You can read about my experience here:
<http://astronomy.mdodd.com/flexure.html>

> ...after a single 600 second exposure I measured the
> shift in the position of the guide star centroid to be 0.053 pixels in
> the X-direction, and 0.304 pixels in the Y-direction. This doesn't seem
> to be too bad in the X-direction, but I am not so sure about the
> Y-direction. Does anyone have any thoughts on this ?

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If your images look good,
then your flexure is so small you shouldn't have to worry about it.

--- Mike








--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Re: Flexure Measurement - How Much is Too Much ?

Mike Dodd
 

On 6/21/2021 3:29 PM, M Hambrick wrote:
Roland has stated on multiple occasions that using a separate guide
scope is not the ideal way to do guided imaging because of flexure. How
much flexure is considered excessive ?
ANY flexure is too much! :-) You can read about my experience here: <http://astronomy.mdodd.com/flexure.html>

...after a single 600 second exposure I measured the
shift in the position of the guide star centroid to be 0.053 pixels in
the X-direction, and 0.304 pixels in the Y-direction. This doesn't seem
to be too bad in the X-direction, but I am not so sure about the
Y-direction. Does anyone have any thoughts on this ?
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If your images look good, then your flexure is so small you shouldn't have to worry about it.

--- Mike


Re: 1100GTO-AEL - Question about encoder setup process #Absolute_Encoders

Patrick Spencer
 

Awesome, thanks so much Liam and Roland for the quick replies!

Patrick


Re: 1100GTO-AEL - Question about encoder setup process #Absolute_Encoders

Roland Christen
 

Setting up the encoders means simply to turn them on. This can be done thru APCC just as easily. You do not need to use the APAE Utility unless you are not going to use APCC. Once the encoders have been turned on, you never need to do anything further. They will stay on forever.

The only other thing the Utility can do, which APCC can also do, is to send the mount "Home" in case you have done something to cause it to get lost.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Spencer <patrick.spencer2@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Jun 21, 2021 2:46 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] 1100GTO-AEL - Question about encoder setup process #Absolute_Encoders

I recently received a new 1100GTO-AEL and I've been reading all the documentation and getting ready to set everything up for first use. I am a bit confused about some language in the GTOCP4 manual regarding absolute encoders. The manual states "The APAE Utility needs to be connected to the GTOCP4 through a separate COM port from the one that is controlling the mount. This connection can be done through the GTOCP4's second RS-232 serial port or through the USB connection ..."

I plan to use Ethernet to run the mount. Does the above-quoted language mean I need a separate physical USB or serial cable to set up the encoders?

Additionally, I plan to use APCC Pro, and I understand APCC has an AE tab. Do I still need the APAE Utility? Regardless, I still have the same question about whether I need 2 separate cables to set up the mount and the encoders.

I apologize that these questions seem pretty basic, but I want to make sure I set up the mount right the first time.

Thanks for any feedback,

Patrick Spencer

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Re: 1100GTO-AEL - Question about encoder setup process #Absolute_Encoders

 

Howdy,

 

You do not need to worry about the APAE Utility if you intend to use APCC. You can use just the ethernet port and be ready to go.

 

Liam Plybon

Astro-Physics

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Patrick Spencer
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2021 2:46 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: [ap-gto] 1100GTO-AEL - Question about encoder setup process #Absolute_Encoders

 

I recently received a new 1100GTO-AEL and I've been reading all the documentation and getting ready to set everything up for first use. I am a bit confused about some language in the GTOCP4 manual regarding absolute encoders. The manual states "The APAE Utility needs to be connected to the GTOCP4 through a separate COM port from the one that is controlling the mount. This connection can be done through the GTOCP4's second RS-232 serial port or through the USB connection ..."

I plan to use Ethernet to run the mount. Does the above-quoted language mean I need a separate physical USB or serial cable to set up the encoders?

Additionally, I plan to use APCC Pro, and I understand APCC has an AE tab. Do I still need the APAE Utility? Regardless, I still have the same question about whether I need 2 separate cables to set up the mount and the encoders.

I apologize that these questions seem pretty basic, but I want to make sure I set up the mount right the first time.

Thanks for any feedback,

Patrick Spencer


1100GTO-AEL - Question about encoder setup process #Absolute_Encoders

Patrick Spencer
 

I recently received a new 1100GTO-AEL and I've been reading all the documentation and getting ready to set everything up for first use. I am a bit confused about some language in the GTOCP4 manual regarding absolute encoders. The manual states "The APAE Utility needs to be connected to the GTOCP4 through a separate COM port from the one that is controlling the mount. This connection can be done through the GTOCP4's second RS-232 serial port or through the USB connection ..."

I plan to use Ethernet to run the mount. Does the above-quoted language mean I need a separate physical USB or serial cable to set up the encoders?

Additionally, I plan to use APCC Pro, and I understand APCC has an AE tab. Do I still need the APAE Utility? Regardless, I still have the same question about whether I need 2 separate cables to set up the mount and the encoders.

I apologize that these questions seem pretty basic, but I want to make sure I set up the mount right the first time.

Thanks for any feedback,

Patrick Spencer


Flexure Measurement - How Much is Too Much ?

M Hambrick
 

Roland has stated on multiple occasions that using a separate guide scope is not the ideal way to do guided imaging because of flexure. How much flexure is considered excessive ? I believe that it was also Roland who suggested a way to detect flexure by using the information box in MaxIm DL to measure the position of the guide star in the main imaging camera at the start and at the end of the guiding session. The assumption is that the guide star position in the guiding camera will not change, but if there is flexure, it can be seen as a shift in the position of the star in the main imaging camera.

I tried this the other night. It was a very short session because the seeing was so bad, but after a single 600 second exposure I measured the shift in the position of the guide star centroid to be 0.053 pixels in the X-direction, and 0.304 pixels in the Y-direction. This doesn't seem to be too bad in the X-direction, but I am not so sure about the Y-direction. Does anyone have any thoughts on this ?

Mike


Re: Mount won't connect to new(er) laptop #APCC

 

Howdy,

I would say that adding two extra connection points and an extra adapter circuit introduces more reliability issues than simply sticking with one cable. By using a USB to Ethernet adapter, not only have you failed to eliminate reliability issues with USB (after all, you are still fundamentally dependent on USB) but you have added an entire second cable with it's own possible issues. Reliability isn't necessarily defined by what connector is going into the CP4/5.

Windows does have USB power saving settings, although I don't think they would cause this issue. You can check easily by simply turning off the selective port suspension in the settings. This shouldn't affect the CP5 however, since the FTDI chip running the USB is powered by both the CP5 and the computer for maximum performance. 

Do you have the FTDI driver installed? Windows will find a driver but not necessarily the right one every time. You can find those drivers here: https://ftdichip.com/drivers/

One troubleshooting option would be to check that the digital board of the CP5 is fully seated on the main board. Power down the CP5 and use a 3/32" hex key to open up the front cover with the antenna. Inside there is a small circuit board on top of a large circuit board. Press down on the side of the small circuit board closest to the connector panel and see if it seats into place. If so, that might be the cause of your issue. I doubt this is the case, but it isn't a bad place to check.
--
Liam Plybon
Astro-Physics


Re: M16 from my new observatory

Ron Kramer
 

the sequence.  I just use this a lot and drag and drop the new target in. So load, drag drop click Run.

basic seq.jpg


On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 12:55 PM Ron Kramer <ronkramer1957@...> wrote:
NINA is amazing. (and free)

On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 12:49 PM Robert Chozick via groups.io <rchozick=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
That’s really cool. Not sure I’ll ever get to that level of remote control.

Robert 


On Jun 21, 2021, at 11:38 AM, Ron Kramer <ronkramer1957@...> wrote:


Mine, I wasn't even home during any of this. We were with friends out to eat. 
shooting Thor's helmet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCEemL2xGRw

On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 3:44 PM Robert Chozick via groups.io <rchozick=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks.  I was also motivated by always wanting some land.

Robert

On Jun 19, 2021, at 2:26 PM, thefamily90 Phillips <thefamily90@...> wrote:

Gorgeous!
Now, that is dedication. Congratulations to you!

JimP

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of DFisch <manusfisch@...>
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 6:03:56 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] M16 from my new observatory
 
You can feel the joy and satisfaction with this kind of post! Thanks for sharing and congratulation, Tom

On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 00:44 Robert Chozick via groups.io <rchozick=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
I just finished my new observatory in NW Texas and this is my first image there and with my new ZWO ASI2600MM mono cmos camera.  I am so excited to have a permanent observatory setup ready to image at any time.  It is a 4 hour drive but the skies are almost Bortle 1.

https://pbase.com/rchozick/image/171729912




--
TJF MOBILE



--



--



Re: M16 from my new observatory

Ron Kramer
 

NINA is amazing. (and free)

On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 12:49 PM Robert Chozick via groups.io <rchozick=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
That’s really cool. Not sure I’ll ever get to that level of remote control.

Robert 


On Jun 21, 2021, at 11:38 AM, Ron Kramer <ronkramer1957@...> wrote:


Mine, I wasn't even home during any of this. We were with friends out to eat. 
shooting Thor's helmet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCEemL2xGRw

On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 3:44 PM Robert Chozick via groups.io <rchozick=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks.  I was also motivated by always wanting some land.

Robert

On Jun 19, 2021, at 2:26 PM, thefamily90 Phillips <thefamily90@...> wrote:

Gorgeous!
Now, that is dedication. Congratulations to you!

JimP

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of DFisch <manusfisch@...>
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 6:03:56 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] M16 from my new observatory
 
You can feel the joy and satisfaction with this kind of post! Thanks for sharing and congratulation, Tom

On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 00:44 Robert Chozick via groups.io <rchozick=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
I just finished my new observatory in NW Texas and this is my first image there and with my new ZWO ASI2600MM mono cmos camera.  I am so excited to have a permanent observatory setup ready to image at any time.  It is a 4 hour drive but the skies are almost Bortle 1.

https://pbase.com/rchozick/image/171729912




--
TJF MOBILE



--




Re: M16 from my new observatory

Robert Chozick
 

That’s really cool. Not sure I’ll ever get to that level of remote control.

Robert 


On Jun 21, 2021, at 11:38 AM, Ron Kramer <ronkramer1957@...> wrote:


Mine, I wasn't even home during any of this. We were with friends out to eat. 
shooting Thor's helmet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCEemL2xGRw

On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 3:44 PM Robert Chozick via groups.io <rchozick=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks.  I was also motivated by always wanting some land.

Robert

On Jun 19, 2021, at 2:26 PM, thefamily90 Phillips <thefamily90@...> wrote:

Gorgeous!
Now, that is dedication. Congratulations to you!

JimP

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of DFisch <manusfisch@...>
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 6:03:56 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] M16 from my new observatory
 
You can feel the joy and satisfaction with this kind of post! Thanks for sharing and congratulation, Tom

On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 00:44 Robert Chozick via groups.io <rchozick=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
I just finished my new observatory in NW Texas and this is my first image there and with my new ZWO ASI2600MM mono cmos camera.  I am so excited to have a permanent observatory setup ready to image at any time.  It is a 4 hour drive but the skies are almost Bortle 1.

https://pbase.com/rchozick/image/171729912




--
TJF MOBILE



--


Re: M16 from my new observatory

Ron Kramer
 

Mine, I wasn't even home during any of this. We were with friends out to eat. 
shooting Thor's helmet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCEemL2xGRw


On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 3:44 PM Robert Chozick via groups.io <rchozick=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks.  I was also motivated by always wanting some land.

Robert

On Jun 19, 2021, at 2:26 PM, thefamily90 Phillips <thefamily90@...> wrote:

Gorgeous!
Now, that is dedication. Congratulations to you!

JimP

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of DFisch <manusfisch@...>
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 6:03:56 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] M16 from my new observatory
 
You can feel the joy and satisfaction with this kind of post! Thanks for sharing and congratulation, Tom

On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 00:44 Robert Chozick via groups.io <rchozick=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
I just finished my new observatory in NW Texas and this is my first image there and with my new ZWO ASI2600MM mono cmos camera.  I am so excited to have a permanent observatory setup ready to image at any time.  It is a 4 hour drive but the skies are almost Bortle 1.

https://pbase.com/rchozick/image/171729912




--
TJF MOBILE



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