Date   

Re: Mach2 Guide rate and question about gear meshing.

Roland Christen
 

I was asking Michael Fields.

Roland



-----Original Message-----
From: Phillip Klein <klein.phillip@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Fri, Feb 12, 2021 4:55 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Guide rate and question about gear meshing.

Roland,

I did not.

Best,

Phil Klein

On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 2:37 PM Roland Christen via groups.io <chris1011=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Did you send me an e-mail?

Roland Christen
Astro-Physics Inc.



-----Original Message-----
From: Micheal Fields Jr via groups.io <mpfjr=yahoo.com@groups.io>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Fri, Feb 12, 2021 2:24 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Guide rate and question about gear meshing.

I think it is because Daleen had my name ae instead of ea when she registered me?  Not sure.  I was talking to her about APCC Pro.  The invoice does have my name ae instead of ea too.  But that isn't anyone's fault.  My name is spelled some weird old Irish spelling.  And Yes please send me the instructions to adjust it a bit.  I took the covers off as you suggested and I can see how it works I believe.  My first instinct would be to break loose the top nut which has red lock on it.  Then back out the spring plunger bolt about 1/8th of a turn and then tighten up the nut again and test.    Awaiting genuine instructions.  

My serial is M20094  Invoice # 59566-S2

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Re: Mach2 Guide rate and question about gear meshing.

Phillip Klein
 

Roland,

I did not.

Best,

Phil Klein

On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 2:37 PM Roland Christen via groups.io <chris1011=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Did you send me an e-mail?

Roland Christen
Astro-Physics Inc.



-----Original Message-----
From: Micheal Fields Jr via groups.io <mpfjr=yahoo.com@groups.io>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Fri, Feb 12, 2021 2:24 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Guide rate and question about gear meshing.

I think it is because Daleen had my name ae instead of ea when she registered me?  Not sure.  I was talking to her about APCC Pro.  The invoice does have my name ae instead of ea too.  But that isn't anyone's fault.  My name is spelled some weird old Irish spelling.  And Yes please send me the instructions to adjust it a bit.  I took the covers off as you suggested and I can see how it works I believe.  My first instinct would be to break loose the top nut which has red lock on it.  Then back out the spring plunger bolt about 1/8th of a turn and then tighten up the nut again and test.    Awaiting genuine instructions.  

My serial is M20094  Invoice # 59566-S2

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Re: Mach2 Guide rate and question about gear meshing.

Roland Christen
 

Did you send me an e-mail?

Roland Christen
Astro-Physics Inc.



-----Original Message-----
From: Micheal Fields Jr via groups.io <mpfjr@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Fri, Feb 12, 2021 2:24 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Guide rate and question about gear meshing.

I think it is because Daleen had my name ae instead of ea when she registered me?  Not sure.  I was talking to her about APCC Pro.  The invoice does have my name ae instead of ea too.  But that isn't anyone's fault.  My name is spelled some weird old Irish spelling.  And Yes please send me the instructions to adjust it a bit.  I took the covers off as you suggested and I can see how it works I believe.  My first instinct would be to break loose the top nut which has red lock on it.  Then back out the spring plunger bolt about 1/8th of a turn and then tighten up the nut again and test.    Awaiting genuine instructions.  

My serial is M20094  Invoice # 59566-S2

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Re: How long for UNGUIDED imaging with non AE mounts?

Worsel
 

Emilio

1. I set my PHD2 exposures to 4 s (when I am guiding...see 2), but I also set a delay in between exposures.  I continue to experiment with that delay from 3s to 10s. 
2. Yes, my experience with the model is that it does improve both tracking and GoTos.   I had the 1100 since 2016.  I would not have been able to image Un-guided before implementing modelling in 2019.  I still guide at times, especially for longer exposures.

Bryan


Re: Mach2 Guide rate and question about gear meshing.

Roland Christen
 

If you can, please send me your e-mail directly to chris1011@... and I'll send you the information.

Roland



-----Original Message-----
From: Micheal Fields Jr via groups.io <mpfjr@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Fri, Feb 12, 2021 2:24 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Guide rate and question about gear meshing.

I think it is because Daleen had my name ae instead of ea when she registered me?  Not sure.  I was talking to her about APCC Pro.  The invoice does have my name ae instead of ea too.  But that isn't anyone's fault.  My name is spelled some weird old Irish spelling.  And Yes please send me the instructions to adjust it a bit.  I took the covers off as you suggested and I can see how it works I believe.  My first instinct would be to break loose the top nut which has red lock on it.  Then back out the spring plunger bolt about 1/8th of a turn and then tighten up the nut again and test.    Awaiting genuine instructions.  

My serial is M20094  Invoice # 59566-S2

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Re: Mach2 Guide rate and question about gear meshing.

Roland Christen
 


My first instinct would be to break loose the top nut which has red lock on it.  Then back out the spring plunger bolt about 1/8th of a turn and then tighten up the nut again and test.
That's actually backwards on 2 counts. So don't adjust that top bolt.
I will send you some info as to how to adjust the backstop.

Roland


-----Original Message-----
From: Micheal Fields Jr via groups.io <mpfjr@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Fri, Feb 12, 2021 2:24 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Guide rate and question about gear meshing.

I think it is because Daleen had my name ae instead of ea when she registered me?  Not sure.  I was talking to her about APCC Pro.  The invoice does have my name ae instead of ea too.  But that isn't anyone's fault.  My name is spelled some weird old Irish spelling.  And Yes please send me the instructions to adjust it a bit.  I took the covers off as you suggested and I can see how it works I believe.  My first instinct would be to break loose the top nut which has red lock on it.  Then back out the spring plunger bolt about 1/8th of a turn and then tighten up the nut again and test.    Awaiting genuine instructions.  

My serial is M20094  Invoice # 59566-S2

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Re: Mach2 Guide rate and question about gear meshing.

Micheal Fields Jr
 

I think it is because Daleen had my name ae instead of ea when she registered me?  Not sure.  I was talking to her about APCC Pro.  The invoice does have my name ae instead of ea too.  But that isn't anyone's fault.  My name is spelled some weird old Irish spelling.  And Yes please send me the instructions to adjust it a bit.  I took the covers off as you suggested and I can see how it works I believe.  My first instinct would be to break loose the top nut which has red lock on it.  Then back out the spring plunger bolt about 1/8th of a turn and then tighten up the nut again and test.    Awaiting genuine instructions.  

My serial is M20094  Invoice # 59566-S2


Re: Mach2 Guide rate and question about gear meshing.

Roland Christen
 

The guide rate for all our mounts is recommended to be 1x. This allows the guiding loop to move the guide star in the most efficient manner back to the zero point without delay. This works perfectly with all of our mounts. Guiding at slower rates is not recommended.

The movement of the RA axis suggests that the backstop adjustment is a bit loose, but it has zero effect during actual operation. When the motors are active they will counter this and stiffen up the axis. On any spring loaded mount there is a small amount of pressure that pushes the worm into mesh with the worm wheel teeth. That pressure cannot be really heavy because it will wear the worm teeth at a high rate during slewing. For longevity we set the spring pressure high enough to ensure good contact, but not so high to cause excessive wear. As a result, the worm teeth can be made to back up slightly until the mechanism hits the backstop - that's the click click that you hear when you push the axis back and forth. You can see the action of the mechanism and the backstop if you remove the rear cover of the motor box and look inside.

Now it is possible that something else is loose, a very distant possibility would be the end play adjustment of the worm , but by the sounds of it, the backstop is set a bit too high. Offhand I cannot find your name on the list of mounts we shipped, so always include a serial number whenever you report any issues, if you can. If it is the backstop, that is easily remedied with a simple adjustment. It won't change how the mount operates in practice. I can send you some instructions that shows how the backstop is adjusted. But first, open the motor box cover and look inside.

None of this will affect your tracking, pointing or guiding in any way. Once the power is turned on, the encoders take over and keep the axes rigidly pointing to sub-arc sec levels to the place in the sky that you point your scope to. Regardless of weight or even imbalance. Of course the first reaction to any anomaly is to question tracking, guiding, pointing, etc., but i can assure you that it's a red herring.

Roland Christen
Astro-Physics Inc.



-----Original Message-----
From: Micheal Fields Jr via groups.io <mpfjr@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Fri, Feb 12, 2021 1:09 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Mach2 Guide rate and question about gear meshing.

What is the recommended guide rate setting?  My experience with premium mounts is that you reduce the guide rate.  The other mount I am using recommends .20 or .25 and I've been pretty happy with that.  

I think I saw somewhere the recommended with the Mach2 is 1.0x?  

But maybe your experience is different and you have a different value. I am using the latest nightly PHD2 with multi star guiding.


Next question is about gear meshing.  Specifically the RA.   I had rain predicted for today so I brought my gear inside and set it up in my kitchen so I could work on my camera spacing with a new precise parts adapter that came in the mail yesterday.  While I was carrying the mount into the house the saddle plate was up against my tummy and I could feel something that felt loose.  When I set it back on the tripod and bolted everything down tight, I  could wiggle the saddle and feel something click/clack .  I then followed the movement by eye and could see the entire RA had some movement.  The alignment marks for RA showed a bit of movement.   I didn't notice this before.  Now if I hold on to the OTA and wiggle it, I can hear it click/clack as it moves.  The weight is far under capacity with a C11 and a one shot color camera.  No filter wheels or rotators etc.    Here is a short video showing what I am experiencing.   What is interesting is that when making a model I was noticing some results that I thought were very strange depending on what side of the meridian it was  on but I assumed it was the fact I focus with my primary mirror so it moves.  However guiding was less than amazing too but again I had an excuse which was clouds moving in and that messes with the  guide stars.   So please take a look and tell me if this is normal.  Thanks!   Note: if you turn your volume up or use headphones you can hear it too.  https://youtu.be/JnhhFXc-uFw

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Re: How long for UNGUIDED imaging with non AE mounts?

 

Emilio,

 

While the mount can tolerate a light sprinkle, I suggest strongly against full submersion in water; as fun as it may sound on a special day.  

 

Perhaps flowers, a wipe with soft cloth and no-bleach window cleaner, chocolates, or a good regreasing would be a better way to show you mount affection. Glad to hear you have such a strong relationship with your mount!😃

 

Liam Plybon

Astro-Physics

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Emilio J. Robau, P.E.
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2021 1:33 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] How long for UNGUIDED imaging with non AE mounts?

 

I guess you should also remodel every time you do some load changes or tweaking of balance?   

 

I have to comment, potentially adversely to AP sales.   The non-encoder option is so freaking accurate that sometimes I don’t know why people even buy it.   I love my mount.  In fact, I am thinking of giving it a bath for Valentine’s day.  You know, a private thing in the observatory…. 

 

Seriously, the other item I want to comment on is the fact that it is kind of silly to set tracking times on PH-2 of 5 seconds when you can really go much much longer without doing supplemental tracking at all.  How long are people setting the exposure times?


Does the model add that much more accuracy to the tracking?

 

Finally, I guess having the encoders is like once you have the encoders you really appreciate their functionality?   If so, I am just going to avoid them, because right now my love for my 1600 is deep and there is no need to ruin a good relationship.

 

Emilio J. Robau. P.E.

Professional Engineer

Florida, Montana, North Carolina

www.robau-designs.com

 

Designs for Human Habitation and Environmental Conservation

Civil Engineering - Project Management – Permitting – Consulting  Ph: 239-206-8000 Direct: 239-204-4322

2770 Horseshoe Drive S, Suite 7, Naples, Florida 34104

 

This e-mail message is sent from Robau and Associates, LLC, and is intended only for the addressee. This message and any attachments may contain information that is confidential or privileged. Upon receipt of any electronic file/data from Robau and Associates, LLC, you are agreeing to the following: This file/data is for informational purposes only. It is the responsibility of the recipient to reconcile this electronic file/data with the actual project site conditions. Recipient agrees to indemnify and hold harmless Robau and Associates, LLC for any defects or errors in this file/data.  Unauthorized use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message and any attachments.

 


Re: How long for UNGUIDED imaging with non AE mounts?

Emilio J. Robau, P.E.
 

I guess you should also remodel every time you do some load changes or tweaking of balance?   

 

I have to comment, potentially adversely to AP sales.   The non-encoder option is so freaking accurate that sometimes I don’t know why people even buy it.   I love my mount.  In fact, I am thinking of giving it a bath for Valentine’s day.  You know, a private thing in the observatory…. 

 

Seriously, the other item I want to comment on is the fact that it is kind of silly to set tracking times on PH-2 of 5 seconds when you can really go much much longer without doing supplemental tracking at all.  How long are people setting the exposure times?


Does the model add that much more accuracy to the tracking?

 

Finally, I guess having the encoders is like once you have the encoders you really appreciate their functionality?   If so, I am just going to avoid them, because right now my love for my 1600 is deep and there is no need to ruin a good relationship.

 

Emilio J. Robau. P.E.

Professional Engineer

Florida, Montana, North Carolina

www.robau-designs.com

 

Designs for Human Habitation and Environmental Conservation

Civil Engineering - Project Management – Permitting – Consulting  Ph: 239-206-8000 Direct: 239-204-4322

2770 Horseshoe Drive S, Suite 7, Naples, Florida 34104

 

This e-mail message is sent from Robau and Associates, LLC, and is intended only for the addressee. This message and any attachments may contain information that is confidential or privileged. Upon receipt of any electronic file/data from Robau and Associates, LLC, you are agreeing to the following: This file/data is for informational purposes only. It is the responsibility of the recipient to reconcile this electronic file/data with the actual project site conditions. Recipient agrees to indemnify and hold harmless Robau and Associates, LLC for any defects or errors in this file/data.  Unauthorized use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message and any attachments.

 


Mach2 Guide rate and question about gear meshing.

Micheal Fields Jr
 

What is the recommended guide rate setting?  My experience with premium mounts is that you reduce the guide rate.  The other mount I am using recommends .20 or .25 and I've been pretty happy with that.  

I think I saw somewhere the recommended with the Mach2 is 1.0x?  

But maybe your experience is different and you have a different value. I am using the latest nightly PHD2 with multi star guiding.


Next question is about gear meshing.  Specifically the RA.   I had rain predicted for today so I brought my gear inside and set it up in my kitchen so I could work on my camera spacing with a new precise parts adapter that came in the mail yesterday.  While I was carrying the mount into the house the saddle plate was up against my tummy and I could feel something that felt loose.  When I set it back on the tripod and bolted everything down tight, I  could wiggle the saddle and feel something click/clack .  I then followed the movement by eye and could see the entire RA had some movement.  The alignment marks for RA showed a bit of movement.   I didn't notice this before.  Now if I hold on to the OTA and wiggle it, I can hear it click/clack as it moves.  The weight is far under capacity with a C11 and a one shot color camera.  No filter wheels or rotators etc.    Here is a short video showing what I am experiencing.   What is interesting is that when making a model I was noticing some results that I thought were very strange depending on what side of the meridian it was  on but I assumed it was the fact I focus with my primary mirror so it moves.  However guiding was less than amazing too but again I had an excuse which was clouds moving in and that messes with the  guide stars.   So please take a look and tell me if this is normal.  Thanks!   Note: if you turn your volume up or use headphones you can hear it too.  https://youtu.be/JnhhFXc-uFw


Re: How long for UNGUIDED imaging with non AE mounts?

Worsel
 

As Ray notes, it depends...

Following is likely TMI!

For my 200 point model, it took 88'.  This is based on the time delta between first and last image, which is all captured in the model file (*.PNT) in C:/Program Data/AstroPhyscis/APPCC/Models (if you do not change the default folder).  The actual time is a bit longer to initialize SGP and APPM and load the model after.

About 25" to take a 5" image (19 M full-frame), plate solve, slew to next position, 2" settle time.  This can vary, mostly with the slew time.  I use SGP to take the image and plate-solve either with ASTAP or a local install of Astrometry.net.  ASTAP is much faster, but does not always solve.  AN is slower, but has never failed, if I set it up correctly.  Fairly fast PC.

If you go back through threads from last 6 months or so, you will find a discussion of doing localized sub-models in the areas you plan to image on a given night.  A valid approach, but open to discussion as to any time savings.  I recall Roland using a technique where he used a filter (H-alpha ?) during the model build that allowed him to start taking images for the model long before it was dark enough to take long-exposure images.

Bryan


Re: APPM pointing model using different cameras

Sam Saeed
 

Thank you for confirming. 

Sam




On Thursday, February 11, 2021, 9:40 PM, Xentex <michael@...> wrote:

You shouldn't have to change your model.


Re: How long for UNGUIDED imaging with non AE mounts?

Ray Gralak
 

So how long does it take to create a 200 point model?
That depends somewhat on image download time and plate solve time. Faster downloads will reduce time. A faster computer will usually plate-solve faster.

Typically it takes about 2-3 points/minute, so probably in the range of 65 to 100 minutes. If the setup is not moved or changed the model can last for months.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of astro@dinoworld.com.au
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2021 12:20 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] How long for UNGUIDED imaging with non AE mounts?

On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 12:19 PM, Worsel wrote:


Bob

I have a 200 point model for a non-AE 1100 (PEM enabled) with a 2500 mm scope. I have been able to
image (0.54 a-s/pxl) unguided for 15 minutes, but not consistently. With a 700 mm scope, I think you could easily
do the same and more consistently than me.


Bryan

Thanks Bryan

So how long does it take to create a 200 point model?


Re: How long for UNGUIDED imaging with non AE mounts?

Bob
 

On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 12:19 PM, Worsel wrote:
Bob

I have a 200 point model for a non-AE 1100 (PEM enabled) with a 2500 mm scope. I have been able to image (0.54 a-s/pxl) unguided for 15 minutes, but not consistently.  With a 700 mm scope, I think you could easily do the same and more consistently than me.


Bryan
Thanks Bryan

So how long does it take to create a 200 point model?


Re: APPM pointing model using different cameras

Xentex
 

You shouldn't have to change your model.


Re: How long for UNGUIDED imaging with non AE mounts?

Worsel
 

Bob

I have a 200 point model for a non-AE 1100 (PEM enabled) with a 2500 mm scope. I have been able to image (0.54 a-s/pxl) unguided for 15 minutes, but not consistently.  With a 700 mm scope, I think you could easily do the same and more consistently than me.


Bryan


Re: How long for UNGUIDED imaging with non AE mounts?

Bob
 

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 10:20 PM, Peter Nagy wrote:
Bob,

With or without pointing model using APCC Pro?

Peter 
Hi Peter

With a pointing model. I would assume several minutes would be achievable? How large would the model need to be?

Thanks
Bob


Re: Counterweight Shaft Case

Steve C. Mitchell, Sr., O.D.
 

What the hell are you doing bringing common sense to the party!
The perfect, simple, cost effective solution to the problem! Brilliant!
Steve 8>)

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jeffc
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 8:21 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Counterweight Shaft Case

Here’s my awesome counterweight shaft transport case. This is for an AP1200 CW shaft, but I also have a very similar one for the shorter AP1100 shaft.
The case you see here is specially designed to prevent rolling around in the vehicle, and has been reinforced in the appropriate areas of the structure.
This has served me very very well since 2005 and has been to many star parties, public programs , and countless imaging sessions.
I give it 4 stars rating… knocking off a star as the cover needs minor work with some gaffers tape.


Re: How long for UNGUIDED imaging with non AE mounts?

Roland Christen
 


I can expect to achieve good unguided images with exposures in the tens of minutes? Maybe even up to 1 hour?
Probably not. I was doing unguided imaging with an encoder mount. I apologize if I misled anyone.
A mount that does not have shaft encoders is open loop and is at the mercy of the periodic error that is produced by the gearbox. One can minimize that error using PEM but that does not guarantee that it will track to sub-arc sec levels for an hour.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: astro@...
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Thu, Feb 11, 2021 2:01 am
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] How long for UNGUIDED imaging with non AE mounts?

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 11:15 PM, Roland Christen wrote:
I have gone up to an hour with 1000mm FL and 5.4 micron pixel camera.

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics
First, excuse me for asking for clarification/confirmation of what you just stated. My excuse is I am a virgin with AP gear.

So I have a gto1100 (hopefully soon) without Encoders. All other things being equal, and at moderate focal lengths, I can expect to achieve good unguided images with exposures in the tens of minutes? Maybe even up to 1 hour?

Cheers
Bob

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics

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