Date   

Re: Very frustrated with my model. Errors seem very large. #Polar_Alignment #Mach2GTO

 

>>>Just curious, how long does it take to polar align using SharpCap Pro with the PoleMaster camera versus the PoleMaster camera using its native software?    
Longer than polemaster software, shorter than sharpcap :)

one of the benefits for me of using the polemaster camera is it is a larger aperture so i can start PA earlier in the evening. 

Brian


Re: Very frustrated with my model. Errors seem very large. #Polar_Alignment #Mach2GTO

Peter Nagy
 

Another cool thing about SharpCap Pro is you can connect ASCOM mount driver to the mount so that the software knows where the mount is pointing to and I believe it estimates refraction where Polaris is. You have to manually enable this in SharpCap Pro.

Peter 


Re: Very frustrated with my model. Errors seem very large. #Polar_Alignment #Mach2GTO

Micheal Fields Jr
 

Oh ok yeah I understand what you mean about model software. 

Ray I got it resolved tonight.  I did a full uninstall and removed all traces of ascom platform and the AP ascom driver from the registry.  Then I downloaded a fresh copy of each and did the re-install.  After setting up APCC again and learning I had to re-install literally all of my ascom stuff, I did a model with APPM and had success.   I am glad it was an easy fix.  Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. I was aware of the ASCOM bug but didn't think it would bite me.  


On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 09:35 AM, Ray Gralak wrote:
Hi Michael,

Yes Ray, I am using APCC. Can I use something else to model? Your question seems to imply I can? If so, can
you or someone else please explain that process? Or do you mean use the hand controller to manually align?
There are a few choices in pointing models, like TPoint, MaxPoint, APCC Pro, and the new hand controller firmware in conjunction with the Mach 2 firmware. Only APCC Pro and the hand controller firmware perform tracking rate modeling, but the main issue you mentioned concerned pointing, so I wanted to be sure you were talking about APCC.

Just to re-iterate, what described sounds like the ASCOM bug, but there is always a possibility it is something else. If you want, you can either post or email your APPM log files and PNT files. It would be best to zip them with APCC's "Log Zipper" utility that can be started from APCC's tools menu. If you choose to use email, my email is at groups3 AT gralak dot com.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Micheal Fields Jr via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:07 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Very frustrated with my model. Errors seem very large. #Mach2GTO #Polar_Alignment

Yes Ray, I am using APCC. Can I use something else to model? Your question seems to imply I can? If so, can
you or someone else please explain that process? Or do you mean use the hand controller to manually align?

I am nearly 100% positive I have the latest ascom SP1. Not only do I keep it up to date but I also did a "check for
updates" from the ascom folder and it reported no new updates available. What I can try is to uninstall it clean
and do a fresh install. I keep a portable hard drive with all the latest revisions of all my drivers and software but
when I am too lazy to find it I typically just do a re-download. I also captured some video of these issues but it is
hours long and needs to be edited down to something worth a watch. Was up until 4am fighting with this so the 4
hours of sleep I am on now means I may not get anything accomplished today.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 07:29 AM, Ray Gralak wrote:


Hi Michael,

Although you don't specifically mention APCC, I assume that is what you are using for a model?

If so, the behavior you are describing sounds like you may be running the ASCOM Platform 6.5 with the
"Transform" bug. APPM and APCC use the ASCOM Transform class to convert plate-solved J2000 coordinates
to the current epoch. The severe bug in this version of ASCOM makes the Transform class un-reusable, so all
follow-up J2000 transformations return the same RA,Dec coordinate pair as the first, and thus results a bad
model.

I suggest you download and install ASCOM Platform 6.5 SP1 from the ASCOM web site. Unfortunately
you will have to use APPM to collect data points again.

https://www.ascom-standards.org

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver




-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Micheal Fields Jr via
groups.io
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 3:15 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: [ap-gto] Very frustrated with my model. Errors seem very large. #Mach2GTO
#Polar_Alignment

Used the QHY Polemax camera and software to dial in the polar alignment which seemed pretty
straight forward.
Should be right on the money.

Then I also happen to have the MGbox and that is connected providing temp, pressure, humidity
and GPS.

I am running a piece of software on my computer called Dimension4 which communicates with all
the atomic
clocks all over the world and gets extremely precise time. I have the software choose to update time
from PC as
"recommended".

So the polar alignment should be excellent, the time offset correction should be excellent, the gps
coordinates
excellent, the weather information pretty good.

Using SGP I did a focus run prior to doing the model.

Now some details that are going against me.
The telecope is an 11" EdgeHD. I am using two dovetail bars. Both Losmandy D type with radius
blocks. One on
top of the scope and one of course on the bottom. The bolts are very tight FYI.
I have the easy balance 16" saddle and it is also bolted very tightly to the mount. I double checked
all bolts.

Clutches are tight, the two side knobs on the mount for elevation clutch are both tight. The three
bolts from the
adapter pier plate are tight as are the bolts from that plate to the top of the tripod.

But it is an SCT. And I am focusing using the primary mirror which means it is not locked and does
move around
under its own weight.

The imaging train is light weight and is all threaded connections. Nothing moves.

So I start the model and it shows me results like RA delta is -2948.643 and the dec delta is -
1581.175 arc min.

When complete and I look at the "model" it shows things like 9599.37 arc-seconds East Model and
9548.46 arc-
seconds in West model. Polar axis elecation 143987.03 east and 139238.67 west. Index Error HA
230742.67
east and -225292.62 west.

What does that mean? Well I assume it means that what it wants to see and what it actually sees
are very
different.

I wonder if I am not checking the correct boxes.

Then when I am done I am seeing, based upon those high numbers, a very high number for the
polar alignment
error. But I know it is correctly aligned.

Then when I am all done with the bad model and I have tracking adjustments enabled and the
model enabled a 5
second image is all star trails.

So obviously everything is wrong as if it thinks the time is something it isn't or the GPS coordinates
are
something they are not or it is just plate solving the wrong position?

I tried it with SGP and both Platesolve2 and ASTAP. Both yield the same issue.

Now If I just do a regular T-Point run in TSX Pro with all model stuff disabled, it seems normal and
reasonable.
Since the mirror is unlocked because I focus using the primary mirror so I need to model any mirror
shift/flop, The
sky RMS pointing in TSX Pro after doing a 33 point run and crunching it with a "super model" is 16.6
PSD=19.15

So my "point" hehe is that TSX T-Point doesn't seem to have any issues with dramatic errors in
pointing.

So I am stumped. Why am I seeing such chaos?

If I am just throwing out a random guess that would make sense to me would be that it is not
reading/understanding the gps coordinates and elevation correctly so when it solves an image it is
drastically off
from where it thinks it should be. But with a GPS connected, the MGbox, and the time synced with
my PC, AND
absolute encoders, this should not ever happen.

Thoughts?


Re: Very frustrated with my model. Errors seem very large. #Polar_Alignment #Mach2GTO

Micheal Fields Jr
 

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 03:31 PM, deonb wrote:
SharpCap Pro is easier to work with initially. When it works...

Unfortunately, if you have long Focal Lengths's or less than perfect sky conditions it will fail. I've never had it work on a 2800mm FL with a ASI183MM even in perfect sky conditions. Also, vignetting will cause it to fail every time.  On the best of days it works maybe 50% of the time on my long FL cameras.  NINA+ASTAP can resolve those same plates with 99% accuracy - same day/same equipment. Sharpcap doesn't take the Focal Length into account anywhere when doing plate solves, which causes its undoing.

The PoleMaster however, because it's done by hand, pretty much always works. Overcast moonlit night with fast moving clouds over polaris with the observatory shutter obscuring half of the view? Meh, it doesn't care. 

If you're used to both systems, and use the same equipment for alignment every time, the PoleMaster process will also be faster. Eventually. There is a long step to determine the axis center on both where you have to rotate the scope around the RA axis 90 degrees. SharpCap does this every time. Polemaster can save this information and re-use it. So once you can skip this step and re-use the saved information, the Polemaster alignment becomes quicker overall. There are a few stupid unnecessary steps that they do (like asking multiple times for the 5-star identification). I wish their software was better written. But once you get to know it and expect this, it's fast to use.

"Does match success?". Yes. Yes, match success...
Yah their software leaves a lot to be desired for sure.  What bugs me is that even after rotating the frame to align the stars in the circles they actually don't align in the center.  They make the camera. They make the focal length of the lens. They make the focus point.  And they make the software. The stars don't move that fast even though the universe is expanding so why the heck don't the stars align in the center of the circles??  
It works though.  But I do want to try Sharpcap with this camera and see if the combination of the camera being easy to use and the Sharpcap software pole align will be a winner.


Re: Very frustrated with my model. Errors seem very large. #Polar_Alignment #Mach2GTO

Micheal Fields Jr
 

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 02:20 PM, Joseph Beyer wrote:
Just curious, how long does it take to polar align using SharpCap Pro with the PoleMaster camera versus the PoleMaster camera using its native software?    
Plan to find out tomorrow night weather permitting.


Re: Very frustrated with my model. Errors seem very large. #Polar_Alignment #Mach2GTO

Micheal Fields Jr
 

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 01:59 PM, Peter Nagy wrote:
I find SharpCap Pro much easier to use than PoleMaster software. It doesn't matter whether PoleMaster is orthogonal or not as long as you can see the stars surrounding Polaris. SharpCap Pro uses true plate solving unlike PoleMaster software. SharpCap Pro is not free and it's an annual subscription that costs only 10 euro and it's worth it.

Peter 
Hi Peter. 

I actually own a license of Sharpcap. The reason I wasn't using it is because of the field of view of my OTA and the full frame QHY600 camera that was taking forever to download images.  It would not plate solve at all.  However, the idea I want to try is to plug in the PoleMaster camera into the mount as it was made to do but instead of using QHY's software I instead load up Sharpcap and see how that goes.

Good news is I resolved the issue I was having.  Was, as Ray said, related to the ASCOM driver.  I did have 6.5 SP1 but there must have been something wonky because when I did a full uninstall and removed traces from the registry and then a new install along with a new install of the AP Ascom Driver it suddenly worked great.


Re: Very frustrated with my model. Errors seem very large. #Polar_Alignment #Mach2GTO

Joseph Beyer
 

Thanks for the additional information.  I'm portable so set up most every session. I have paver stones marked for the tripod points and the mount/tripod location marked with tape so I can use the same rotational center even after a new setup.  Polar alignment takes just a couple minutes for me with PoleMaster/PoleMaster software.  The pointing precision on the go-tos after alignment never fails to amaze me.  It's always worth try with Sharpcap.  Maybe I'll give it a go when I'm out testing new parts and pieces rather than imaging. 


Re: Very frustrated with my model. Errors seem very large. #Polar_Alignment #Mach2GTO

deonb
 

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 03:43 PM, Peter Nagy wrote:
I don't see how Polemaster software would work with 2800mm focal length. The FOV is way too small. If an 2800mm scope points to NCP perfectly in the center of FOV, can you see Polaris? Maybe with QHY600 full frame camera?
I meant the Polemaster software with the Polemaster camera and lens in the center of the axis.

Like Brian mention, I could in theory use Sharpcap against the Polemaster camera. But Sharpcap would still do the axis-of-rotation check every time, which the Polemaster software doesn't require.


Re: Very frustrated with my model. Errors seem very large. #Polar_Alignment #Mach2GTO

Peter Nagy
 

I don't see how Polemaster software would work with 2800mm focal length. The FOV is way too small. If an 2800mm scope points to NCP perfectly in the center of FOV, can you see Polaris? Maybe with QHY600 full frame camera?

Peter


Re: Very frustrated with my model. Errors seem very large. #Polar_Alignment #Mach2GTO

 

FYI you can use sharpcap with the polemaster camera, it's kind of a best of both worlds

Sharpcap only works with a fov of 1-2.5 degrees, so 2800mm will probably never work reliably



On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 3:31 PM deonb <deonb@...> wrote:
SharpCap Pro is easier to work with initially. When it works...

Unfortunately, if you have long Focal Lengths's or less than perfect sky conditions it will fail. I've never had it work on a 2800mm FL with a ASI183MM even in perfect sky conditions. Also, vignetting will cause it to fail every time.  On the best of days it works maybe 50% of the time on my long FL cameras.  NINA+ASTAP can resolve those same plates with 99% accuracy - same day/same equipment. Sharpcap doesn't take the Focal Length into account anywhere when doing plate solves, which causes its undoing.

The PoleMaster however, because it's done by hand, pretty much always works. Overcast moonlit night with fast moving clouds over polaris with the observatory shutter obscuring half of the view? Meh, it doesn't care. 

If you're used to both systems, and use the same equipment for alignment every time, the PoleMaster process will also be faster. Eventually. There is a long step to determine the axis center on both where you have to rotate the scope around the RA axis 90 degrees. SharpCap does this every time. Polemaster can save this information and re-use it. So once you can skip this step and re-use the saved information, the Polemaster alignment becomes quicker overall. There are a few stupid unnecessary steps that they do (like asking multiple times for the 5-star identification). I wish their software was better written. But once you get to know it and expect this, it's fast to use.

"Does match success?". Yes. Yes, match success...



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


Re: Very frustrated with my model. Errors seem very large. #Polar_Alignment #Mach2GTO

deonb
 

SharpCap Pro is easier to work with initially. When it works...

Unfortunately, if you have long Focal Lengths's or less than perfect sky conditions it will fail. I've never had it work on a 2800mm FL with a ASI183MM even in perfect sky conditions. Also, vignetting will cause it to fail every time.  On the best of days it works maybe 50% of the time on my long FL cameras.  NINA+ASTAP can resolve those same plates with 99% accuracy - same day/same equipment. Sharpcap doesn't take the Focal Length into account anywhere when doing plate solves, which causes its undoing.

The PoleMaster however, because it's done by hand, pretty much always works. Overcast moonlit night with fast moving clouds over polaris with the observatory shutter obscuring half of the view? Meh, it doesn't care. 

If you're used to both systems, and use the same equipment for alignment every time, the PoleMaster process will also be faster. Eventually. There is a long step to determine the axis center on both where you have to rotate the scope around the RA axis 90 degrees. SharpCap does this every time. Polemaster can save this information and re-use it. So once you can skip this step and re-use the saved information, the Polemaster alignment becomes quicker overall. There are a few stupid unnecessary steps that they do (like asking multiple times for the 5-star identification). I wish their software was better written. But once you get to know it and expect this, it's fast to use.

"Does match success?". Yes. Yes, match success...


Re: Very frustrated with my model. Errors seem very large. #Polar_Alignment #Mach2GTO

Peter Nagy
 

Speed isn't an issue because the time difference between both software is not much but with experience, I would say SharpCap Pro might be faster. First time using the software would be longer because you need to use the right gain and offset and other settings which is a one time adjustment and it remembers all settings from then on. You also need to wait till about 30 to 45 minutes before total darkness to be able to see enough stars to get accurate polar alignment. I never timed it myself but I would say up to 5 minutes to get polar aligned with SharpCap Pro. 

Peter 


Re: Very frustrated with my model. Errors seem very large. #Polar_Alignment #Mach2GTO

Joseph Beyer
 

Just curious, how long does it take to polar align using SharpCap Pro with the PoleMaster camera versus the PoleMaster camera using its native software?    


Re: Very frustrated with my model. Errors seem very large. #Polar_Alignment #Mach2GTO

Peter Nagy
 

I find SharpCap Pro much easier to use than PoleMaster software. It doesn't matter whether PoleMaster is orthogonal or not as long as you can see the stars surrounding Polaris. SharpCap Pro uses true plate solving unlike PoleMaster software. SharpCap Pro is not free and it's an annual subscription that costs only 10 euro and it's worth it.

Peter 


Re: APCC Pro version update

Worsel
 

Ray

Thanks!  Reboot and re-install 1.8.8.13 worked without any error.  I thought I had closed APCC before, but quite possibly did not.

Bryan


Re: Eagle 4 with Mach 2 #Mach2GTO

Wayne Hixson
 

No the people who sold me the Eagle. High Point Scientific I believe. They ordered it from Primaluce. I had texted Primaluce support first and that was their process. 


On Jan 7, 2021, at 9:36 AM, annaski@... wrote:

Who did you contact? Primaluceusa?


Re: APCC Pro version update

Greg McCall
 

Hi
I also had the same issue with a blank update version in the yellow dialogue box for APCC Pro.
I think it was 1.8.8.9
I turned the windows firewall off with no change
Reading about this issue, I updated to 1.8.8.13 using the supplied link
I rebooted the computer and checked the windows firewall is still off and the only difference is the yellow dialogue box now says I'm using 1.8.8.13 but the latest version is still blank so I suspect the problem still exists.

I'm using windows 10 on an Intel NUC dedicated to the astro setup with no other firewall of virus software installed
All software including windows updates installed, the software uses the latest versions (including ASCOM etc)

cheers
Greg


Re: Very frustrated with my model. Errors seem very large. #Polar_Alignment #Mach2GTO

Khushrow Machhi
 

Hi Michael,
I just added the encoders on my 1100GTO and when I built a model my pointing was also way off. After reading the manual I figured I needed to do a plate solve and recal. This is also done in APPM and after I did this one time, then building models and pointing was accurate. 
Khushrow


Re: APCC Pro version update

Ray Gralak
 

Hi Bryan,

That error message implies that some application was still using that DLL (maybe APCC was still running?).

Try rebooting and reinstalling before running anything else.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Worsel via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:24 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] APCC Pro version update

Ray

I get the same window as Sam, even after turning off Norton. I do not use MS security. After installing, 1.8.8.13
seems to work, but I did get the attached screenshot error.


Bryan


Re: Eagle 4 with Mach 2 #Mach2GTO

annaski
 

Who did you contact? Primaluceusa?

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