Date   

Re: safe way to load the OTA on the MACH2

Roland Christen
 

I always put the rings on the mount, open them and then place the scope into the rings. This is done in Park2 position. I can load my 155 and 160EDF refractors that way by myself, and I'm not a strong man weight lifter.

I would NEVER load any refractor with the dovetail and rings attached to the scope. It's asking for disaster.

Roland



-----Original Message-----
From: Andrea Lucchetti <andlucchett@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Thu, Dec 31, 2020 10:04 am
Subject: [ap-gto] safe way to load the OTA on the MACH2

Hello,
I am not new to the hobby but my current OTA makes the set up phase not easy at all.

the diameter is 270mm and weight around 19 kg, and I don't feel confident in loading the telescope by myself on the mount.
I wonder if someone has perfectioned a style for the move. :-)
I use the AP DoveDV10 saddle plate, open the lockers, put the bar flat and on the left, close the lockers.
I load the scope in PARK3 position.
previously I used to slide the telescope from behind ( a TEC 140) but now this seems impossible.

I know it sounds like a joke but I don't like to be dependent on other people for the task.
if you know a trick , please share it.
Thank you
Andrea

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Re: safe way to load the OTA on the MACH2

W Hilmo
 

Was it this one, by chance?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwVg1M6bURI

 

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jeffc
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 9:10 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] safe way to load the OTA on the MACH2

 

I saw a video once where a large OTA was mounted by putting the OTA vertical on a tall chair next to the mount, and then bringing the DEC axis to a vertical position to mate with the OTA.   

 

I cannot find the video, but it goes something like this:

 

1) A chair (or table, or custom stand) is positioned next to the mount directly east or west… it will require some alignment that will become clear in a moment. 

 

2) The OTA , with lens cap on, is placed on the chair / stand etc pointing down.  Eg if the OTA is a SCT then the visual back is sticking up.   Likely a strap should be used to prevent the OTA from falling.  

 

3) The OTA is positioned so the dovetail is facing the mount.  

 

4) The mount RA axis is positioned horizontal with the DEC axis dovetail on the side where the OTA is now positioned. 

At this point I think you don’t want any counterweight. 

 

5) The DEC axis is then rotated vertical to match up with the OTA dovetail.  

 

6) At this point some alignment, ie moving the chair/table will likely be required…. Once aligned with the saddle, the dovetail saddle can then be clamped, and counterweights added, OTA strap removed, and chair/stand removed.  

I have not tried this approach.  I also have a rather heavy OTA - 300mm diameter and weighs about 18kg.   This OTA has a handle on the back such that I can use one hand under on the dovetail and the other hand on the handle to lift the OTA to just above my shoulders and slide the dovetail in.

Getting the OTA off in the dark is also a bit scary.     It is borderline weigh for me, and I would prefer a different approach — possibly one with less “drama”.

 

-Jeff

 



On Dec 31, 2020, at 8:04 AM, Andrea Lucchetti <andlucchett@...> wrote:

Hello,
I am not new to the hobby but my current OTA makes the set up phase not easy at all.

the diameter is 270mm and weight around 19 kg, and I don't feel confident in loading the telescope by myself on the mount.
I wonder if someone has perfectioned a style for the move. :-)
I use the AP DoveDV10 saddle plate, open the lockers, put the bar flat and on the left, close the lockers.
I load the scope in PARK3 position.
previously I used to slide the telescope from behind ( a TEC 140) but now this seems impossible.

I know it sounds like a joke but I don't like to be dependent on other people for the task.
if you know a trick , please share it.
Thank you
Andrea


Re: safe way to load the OTA on the MACH2

Jeffc
 

I saw a video once where a large OTA was mounted by putting the OTA vertical on a tall chair next to the mount, and then bringing the DEC axis to a vertical position to mate with the OTA.   

I cannot find the video, but it goes something like this:

1) A chair (or table, or custom stand) is positioned next to the mount directly east or west… it will require some alignment that will become clear in a moment. 

2) The OTA , with lens cap on, is placed on the chair / stand etc pointing down.  Eg if the OTA is a SCT then the visual back is sticking up.   Likely a strap should be used to prevent the OTA from falling.  

3) The OTA is positioned so the dovetail is facing the mount.  

4) The mount RA axis is positioned horizontal with the DEC axis dovetail on the side where the OTA is now positioned. 
At this point I think you don’t want any counterweight. 

5) The DEC axis is then rotated vertical to match up with the OTA dovetail.  

6) At this point some alignment, ie moving the chair/table will likely be required…. Once aligned with the saddle, the dovetail saddle can then be clamped, and counterweights added, OTA strap removed, and chair/stand removed.  

I have not tried this approach.  I also have a rather heavy OTA - 300mm diameter and weighs about 18kg.   This OTA has a handle on the back such that I can use one hand under on the dovetail and the other hand on the handle to lift the OTA to just above my shoulders and slide the dovetail in.
Getting the OTA off in the dark is also a bit scary.     It is borderline weigh for me, and I would prefer a different approach — possibly one with less “drama”.

-Jeff


On Dec 31, 2020, at 8:04 AM, Andrea Lucchetti <andlucchett@...> wrote:

Hello,
I am not new to the hobby but my current OTA makes the set up phase not easy at all.

the diameter is 270mm and weight around 19 kg, and I don't feel confident in loading the telescope by myself on the mount.
I wonder if someone has perfectioned a style for the move. :-)
I use the AP DoveDV10 saddle plate, open the lockers, put the bar flat and on the left, close the lockers.
I load the scope in PARK3 position.
previously I used to slide the telescope from behind ( a TEC 140) but now this seems impossible.

I know it sounds like a joke but I don't like to be dependent on other people for the task.
if you know a trick , please share it.
Thank you
Andrea


Re: safe way to load the OTA on the MACH2

Xentex
 

Mine's not as heavy as yours, but I find loading much easier on park 2.  With the scope pointing sideways, I get the bottom edge of the D plate into the bottom edge of the saddle, then tilt it back so the plates are fully together, slide it left or right for where I know the balance point is, and then tighten it down.

My scope is mounted on the D plate with rings.  I have a vixen bar on top of rings that I use as a handle, and enough space under the rings that I can get my other hand between the scope tube and the mount plate.


safe way to load the OTA on the MACH2

Andrea Lucchetti
 

Hello,
I am not new to the hobby but my current OTA makes the set up phase not easy at all.

the diameter is 270mm and weight around 19 kg, and I don't feel confident in loading the telescope by myself on the mount.
I wonder if someone has perfectioned a style for the move. :-)
I use the AP DoveDV10 saddle plate, open the lockers, put the bar flat and on the left, close the lockers.
I load the scope in PARK3 position.
previously I used to slide the telescope from behind ( a TEC 140) but now this seems impossible.

I know it sounds like a joke but I don't like to be dependent on other people for the task.
if you know a trick , please share it.
Thank you
Andrea


Re: Lost communications with mount

 

>>>  not every telescope-related program runs on Win10 (like PHD2 perhaps), so I did not try to update.  

PHD2 definitely runs windows 10. I don't know about the original PHD, it hasn't really been in wide circulation for quite a while now



On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 7:52 PM weihaowang <whwang@...> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Hi Roland, it is indeed very simple.  My current workflow in TheSky6 is almost as simple as what you said, except that I have to click "establish" to link to the mount.  Otherwise it's the same.  So I am not complaining about the simplicity (or lack of).  It's the lost communication problem that keeps bothering me.  I just tried it without going through APCC (and that's also what I did last week as well, before I got the APCC license).  The issue remains.  Next I will try to change the timeout setting and let you know if it works.

deonb, I will switch to Win10 eventually, probably sooner.  Previously I was told that not every telescope-related program runs on Win10 (like PHD2 perhaps), so I did not try to update.  (Also the notorious Win10 auto update issue.)  Now I think everything should run on Win10.  So perhaps it's time for an upgrade.

When I am typing this, Mach2 is connected to the computer via USB.  But TheSky6 is not connected to it.  ASCOM is not launched.  However, every minute or two, Mach2 makes a small click sound. It makes the sound even after I completely unplug the USB.  Should I worry about it?  Is it normal?

--

Homepage:

http://www.asiaa.sinica.edu.tw/~whwang/

Astrobin gallery:
http://www.astrobin.com/users/whwang/



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


Re: Lost communications with mount

weihaowang
 
Edited

Hi Roland, it is indeed very simple.  My current workflow in TheSky6 is almost as simple as what you said, except that I have to click "establish" to link to the mount.  Otherwise it's the same.  So I am not complaining about the simplicity (or lack of).  It's the lost communication problem that keeps bothering me.  I just tried it without going through APCC (and that's also what I did last week as well, before I got the APCC license).  The issue remains.  Next I will try to change the timeout setting and let you know if it works.

deonb, I will switch to Win10 eventually, probably sooner.  Previously I was told that not every telescope-related program runs on Win10 (like PHD2 perhaps), so I did not try to update.  (Also the notorious Win10 auto update issue.)  Now I think everything should run on Win10.  So perhaps it's time for an upgrade.

When I am typing this, Mach2 is connected to the computer via USB.  But TheSky6 is not connected to it.  ASCOM is not launched.  However, every minute or two, Mach2 makes a small click sound. It makes the sound even after I completely unplug the USB.  Should I worry about it?  Is it normal?

--

Homepage:

http://www.asiaa.sinica.edu.tw/~whwang/

Astrobin gallery:
http://www.astrobin.com/users/whwang/


Re: Lost communications with mount

deonb
 

Wei-Hao,

I would still rethink your workflow of Windows 7 on parallels. By now it's an 11 year old operating system that got obsoleted 8 years ago, and stopped getting security updates a year ago.

As a developer myself, we don't test any of our software on Windows 7 anymore. It's too much of a security risk having Windows 7 devices in our environment. I wouldn't expect Astro-Physics to test on or support Windows 7 either.

And there's of course no way that Windows 7 is ever going to work on an M1 Mac. So at some point you're going to have to change your workflow anyway.

Just something to think about.


Re: Lost communications with mount

Roland Christen
 

Certainly for imaging you can bring as much firepower as you want. But that doesn't change what's needed for controlling the mount. All you need is a planetarium program that works in ASCOM mode. That's it, nothing else is needed.

Try my suggestion. Try it first without APCC in the loop. If that works, then configure the ASCOM driver to operate thru APCC (it's a simple check box in the ASCOM setup app). You can run with or without APCC, your choice.

I don't know how to make it any simpler.

Roland



-----Original Message-----
From: weihaowang <whwang@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Dec 30, 2020 8:46 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Lost communications with mount

Hi Roland,

My "portable" includes carrying/bringing any whwere between 30 and 200 kg of equipments to fly to a different island/continent/hemisphere.  The computer I carry does not only control the telescope+cameras, but also does on-the-fly raw-decoding, and off-line image processing and stacking, to spot potential problems and correct them immediately.  (I don't do this when I image in my home country, as correcting any problems in the next new moon run is not a big deal.  However, for oversea trips, who knows when will be the next time?  So I want to find and correct problems immediately.)  So the computer has to be at least powerful enough to do simply calibration and stacking in PI for gauging the final image quality (to decide if more integration is needed). If it is a 200 kg class trip, then a second computer or even a third is easily justifiable.  But if it is a 30 kg class trip, a computer that does everything is more reasonable, even if that means 0.5 kg heavier for the computer.

On the other hand, for portable stargazing, I do want to make things as simple as possible.  I plan to use my iPhone to control Mach2.  So I am waiting for the new version of SkySafari to correct the parking/initialization issues.

Cheers,
Wei-Hao

--
Homepage:

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Re: Lost communications with mount

weihaowang
 

Hi Roland,

My "portable" includes carrying/bringing any whwere between 30 and 200 kg of equipments to fly to a different island/continent/hemisphere.  The computer I carry does not only control the telescope+cameras, but also does on-the-fly raw-decoding, and off-line image processing and stacking, to spot potential problems and correct them immediately.  (I don't do this when I image in my home country, as correcting any problems in the next new moon run is not a big deal.  However, for oversea trips, who knows when will be the next time?  So I want to find and correct problems immediately.)  So the computer has to be at least powerful enough to do simply calibration and stacking in PI for gauging the final image quality (to decide if more integration is needed). If it is a 200 kg class trip, then a second computer or even a third is easily justifiable.  But if it is a 30 kg class trip, a computer that does everything is more reasonable, even if that means 0.5 kg heavier for the computer.

On the other hand, for portable stargazing, I do want to make things as simple as possible.  I plan to use my iPhone to control Mach2.  So I am waiting for the new version of SkySafari to correct the parking/initialization issues.

Cheers,
Wei-Hao

--

Homepage:

http://www.asiaa.sinica.edu.tw/~whwang/

Astrobin gallery:
http://www.astrobin.com/users/whwang/


Re: Lost communications with mount

Mike Dodd
 

On 12/30/2020 8:12 PM, Roland Christen via groups.io wrote:
In my case if I am out for a short portable imaging session with the
Mach2, I use only SkyX to connect directly to the mount thru the ASCOM
driver. Nothing else, no keypad or other paraphernalia. My work flow is
this:

1) turn power on the mount ON
2) connect my laptop with USB connector.
3) open SkyX, bring up the sky map and click on the object of interest
and press Slew.

SkyX does everything else automatically. It automatically establishes
the connection, un-parks the mount, starts the tracking and slews to the
object. I didn't have to do any of that manually, SkyX does it all for
me. The mount simply slews to where I ask it to, and if my polar
alignment is any good at all, the object appears in my first image.
Yup.

Even though my telescope is pier-mounted in an observatory, and I use ACP for almost all of my imaging, I often use SkyX exactly this way before starting my ACP plan, to slew to a star for preliminary focusing or to grab a quick image of something.

Last weekend I used SkyX to slew to the Moon, then used FireCapture to image it. I used the arrow buttons on the ASCOM driver GUI to frame the Moon on the camera sensor. When done, I used SkyX to park the scope.

I disconnected my keypad six months ago, and moved to a box in the basement.

--- Mike


Re: Lost communications with mount

Roland Christen
 

For portable imaging, just get a keypad. You don't need anything else to connect to the mount.

In my case if I am out for a short portable imaging session with the Mach2, I use only SkyX to connect directly to the mount thru the ASCOM driver. Nothing else, no keypad or other paraphernalia. My work flow is this:

1) turn power on the mount ON
2) connect my laptop with USB connector.
3) open SkyX, bring up the sky map and click on the object of interest and press Slew.

SkyX does everything else automatically. It automatically establishes the connection, un-parks the mount, starts the tracking and slews to the object. I didn't have to do any of that manually, SkyX does it all for me. The mount simply slews to where I asks it to, and if my polar alignment is any good at all, the object appears in my first image.

I really don't understand why people do things in such complicated manner for a simple portable setup. We made this mount so easy to use that a caveman can run it. Is there anything simpler than the above 1,2,3 sequence? Should I make a video showing this exact sequence in action?

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: weihaowang <whwang@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Dec 30, 2020 6:45 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Lost communications with mount

Haha!  I never “leave” my Mac out. Because I am doing portable imaging, whenever my Mac is out, I am out. So technically this is not “leaving it out,” right?

I did think about getting a very cheap Windows laptop for telescope control. I went as far as going to the shop and tell the staff that I want to buy one that’s on sale. That day happened to be a very busy day for them and the gentleman politely asked me to come back next day. Never had a chance the other day and the very nice deal was gone. So I remain PC-less for many years.

I think my priority is to sort this out on my Mac under the Windows virtual machine, as much as possible. Getting a Windows laptop is still an option, but it’s the last one.
--
Homepage:

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Re: Lost communications with mount

weihaowang
 

Haha!  I never “leave” my Mac out. Because I am doing portable imaging, whenever my Mac is out, I am out. So technically this is not “leaving it out,” right?

I did think about getting a very cheap Windows laptop for telescope control. I went as far as going to the shop and tell the staff that I want to buy one that’s on sale. That day happened to be a very busy day for them and the gentleman politely asked me to come back next day. Never had a chance the other day and the very nice deal was gone. So I remain PC-less for many years.

I think my priority is to sort this out on my Mac under the Windows virtual machine, as much as possible. Getting a Windows laptop is still an option, but it’s the last one.
--

Homepage:

http://www.asiaa.sinica.edu.tw/~whwang/

Astrobin gallery:
http://www.astrobin.com/users/whwang/


Re: Changing polar alignment...Ground shifting?

deonb
 

Dan, those same downward forces can be had by just building the pier below ground larger than above ground. You don't need to build a cantilever at the bottom:



It also seemed logical to me that you'd want the majority of the weight of the pier + scope below the frost line. I built it wider to achieve that, but you can build it just deeper as well.

As far as disturbed soil, we have fairly loamish soil here and I've done a 10 ft backfill 3 years ago in an area, compacting and wetting it often. I can still easily shovel multiple feet down into it years later. Right next to it is undisturbed soil that I can't dig into more than 6 inches without using a pickaxe. It seems obvious to me which soil I wanted around the pier. I know not everybody has the luxury of undisturbed soil, but if you do, it seems a shame not to put it to good use.

If you're concerned about ice grabbing onto rough edges, you can always pour concrete into undisturbed soil at the bottom, and then start the smooth sonotube just below the frost line.


Re: Lost communications with mount

Glenn
 

+1 for getting a cheap windows PC to run the mount and your imaging software. I would not want to leave my nice Mac outside anyway. I still use my Mac for remote access and image processing. It is the best of both worlds. 

Best,

Glenn


Minor suggestion: CP5 bracket attachment to ATS Pier #Mach2GTO

mjb87@...
 

Hi,

Got my Mach2 a couple of weeks ago. Looks great. Waiting to finish the observatory now.  ExploraDome arrived today. One minor suggestion, and/or request for advice.

Because my setup is tall, I elected to go with a 10" ATS pier with the pier plate adapter and ADATRI. It will not be possible to attach the CP5 bracket to the ADATRI (and mount) using the supplied 1/4-20 black machined knobs because the bracket won't "clear" the outside edge of the pier.  I plan to add about 2" of spacers and find a 2.5" 1/4-20 fastener to make it all work. Not a huge problem.

However, it would be nice if Astro-Physics offered an extended length machined knob (M1485KBKIT) to accommodate piers of greater diameter than the 6" used by most.  Just a friendly suggestion.

Marty


Re: Changing polar alignment...Ground shifting?

Mike Dodd
 

On 12/30/2020 1:03 PM, daniel.a@... wrote:

/The basic takeaways are from the author's experiences are:/
[...]
/4. A bunch of other things that should be considered aside from basic
hole digging and concrete pouring/
Including embedding rebar in the footer so it extends upward to near the top of whatever projects above ground level.

Remember the rebar!

--- Mike


Re: Lost communications with mount

Roland Christen
 

I keep my imaging computer completely off-line to prevent automatic updates.

Roland



-----Original Message-----
From: Marcelo Figueroa via groups.io <marfig1970@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Dec 30, 2020 12:43 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Lost communications with mount

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 10:37 AM, Brian Valente wrote:
Getting a cheap laptop with the latest version of Windows isn't very hard, and you can keep it purely for astronomy. It will save a lot of heartache. When you are done imaging, you can transfer the files to your Mac and do what you already do without relegating part of your system to Windows.

That's it. Getting a cheap pc laptop to control the mount and run all the necessary software is by far the most efficient solution of all.
 
That's what I do, and then control that pc remotely from my Mac. Just keep in mind, keep windows updated ( you do not want to have 47 updates to be installed at once) and set the working hours between something like 7:00 pm to 7:00 am to prevent anything automatic is installed during a session and have a forced restart.
 

--
Roland Christen
Astro-Physics


Re: Lost communications with mount

Marcelo Figueroa
 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 10:37 AM, Brian Valente wrote:
Getting a cheap laptop with the latest version of Windows isn't very hard, and you can keep it purely for astronomy. It will save a lot of heartache. When you are done imaging, you can transfer the files to your Mac and do what you already do without relegating part of your system to Windows.

That's it. Getting a cheap pc laptop to control the mount and run all the necessary software is by far the most efficient solution of all.
 
That's what I do, and then control that pc remotely from my Mac. Just keep in mind, keep windows updated ( you do not want to have 47 updates to be installed at once) and set the working hours between something like 7:00 pm to 7:00 am to prevent anything automatic is installed during a session and have a forced restart.
 


Re: Changing polar alignment...Ground shifting?

Christopher Erickson
 

Virtually all soils, locations and environments are unique.

Earthquakes, frost heaves, settling, moisture saturation, slope erosion, water table level, etc. all happen. Here in Hawaii, the younger volcanoes inflate and deflate.

Easiest thing to do anywhere is to either tune up your polar alignment twice-or-so a year as part of your periodic maintenance schedule, or just simply tune it up when you notice a change.

"My advice is always free and worth every penny!"

-Christopher Erickson
Observatory Engineer
Summit Kinetics
Waikoloa, Hawaii


On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 8:08 AM <daniel.a@...> wrote:
"...I'm going to auger out and pour a pier footer in the upcoming spring and I've been taking heavy notes from a good thread on the CN observatory forum called "Pier Engineering":

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/652025-pier-engineering/

The basic takeaways are from the author's experiences are:

1. Auger, don't dig out, the hole for the pier, and remove all loose material from the side wall and bottom
2. Pour the footer into the hole, using the hole itself as the form. You can use a sonotube form or whatever for the top several inches to give it a finished aesthetic above ground, but for the majority of it you want direct contact with the surrounding compacted soil.
3. Mind your frostline
4. A bunch of other things that should be considered aside from basic hole digging and concrete pouring

The reasoning is that you'll have concrete directly in contact with the existing undisturbed and compacted soil instead of loose fill. There is also no sonotube that will ultimately decay and leave voids between the footer and the surrounding soil. These voids invite shifting, and the lack of loose fill surrounding the pier means that it will be better supported and more stable.

I'm no soil engineer but it makes sense and, in my case, I really have to nail it on the first try because the place where I want to put a pier is the only location in my yard that I get the most sky... so a do-over would mean a less ideal location, even if it's just a few feet to the side...."
________

You might want to re-examine this advice with a more critical eye.
His basic argument is that a pier poured into an unlined, augered hole is more stable than a pier with a wide base because the augered pier is poured against 'undisturbed' soil.
First of all, consider the basic physics of each type. Ignoring the soil contribution for a minute, which design is more stable?



The base of the augered pier on the right is much smaller than the pier base on the left and would tip over with much less force than would be required to tip over the pier on the left.
Now let's consider the contribution of soil on each of these designs. The cited author maintains that 'undisturbed soil' is supremely strong and will resist movement of the augered pier. He cites stability figures to three significant figures without ever showing his work or specifying the type of soil. Does not the type of soil matter? Sand, loam, clay-Do they all generate the exact same three significant figure of stability?
What is the contribution of soil on the pier with the wide base? Firstly, the weight of the soil on the base (as shown by the red arrows) further adds to its stability because any sideways tipping force exerted on the pier must lift the soil over the base. That is not an inconsequential amount.
Now let's consider whether you want your pier sides below the soil level to be smooth, as from a sonotube, or rough, as poured into an augered hole. If you have soil that freezes in the winter it will grab your pier below ground. Simple physics shows that it's easier to grip a rough surface than a smooth surface. The augered pier has little to resist uplift from a frost heave. The pier with the wide base does resist uplift better as any uplifting force has to lift the pier base and any of the soil above the base.
For some practical matters when pouring concrete, the concrete achieves its maximum strength when properly mixed and worked. This strength is maintained all the way to the inner edge of the sonotube pier. Concrete loses strength when it is adulterated with things like loam or clay, things that will easily be incorporated when pouring into an augered hole and working the concrete.
'Undisturbed soil'? Is there such a thing? All soil above a frost line moves in the winter. Is your pier near your house? I can guarantee that most soils around a house get disturbed during construction. How many years have to pass before it can be reclassified as 'undisturbed'?
If you want a pier with a wide base and the protection of 'undisturbed soil' it's easy enough to compact the replacement soil in an excavated hole. Just tamp it down every few inches and flood it with water.

dan kowall

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