Date   

locked Re: #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE #APCC

Worsel
 

 I reckoned that since I paid for SGP in order to use APPM, I should give it a chance to replace my existing imaging package.  That did not work out.  While I still use it when I need to update the APCC/APPM model, I certainly would like to eliminate the use of SGP.

Unfortunately, neither APPM nor any plate solver (at this time) actually capture images...that's the function that the 'middleman' provides.  All of us have imaging software; the question is could APPM access those images.

Maybe I am missing something.

Bryan


locked Re: #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE #APCC

Ray Gralak
 

Hi Bill,

I opened them, they are fake images with trashed FITS headers that are barely even passable. Why would I care if
fake images solve? I dont take fake images. I take real ones.
What exactly is wrong with the headers? ASTAP can load the file, read the approximate RA/Dec coordinates, display the 16-bit image
(albeit vertically flipped), show the image dimensions, and yet it doesn't seem to be able to solve the image??

I agree that PinPoint is outdated and slow, but it does solve the image in less than a couple of seconds. So do PlateSolve2 and
SkyX.

I am for including ASTAP as an option in APPM, but I need to perform due diligence to make sure it is robust and accurate. If not,
that could lead to lead to support issues, including trying to potentially resolve inaccurate pointing and tracking rates.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Long
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 7:58 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE

I opened them, they are fake images with trashed FITS headers that are barely even passable. Why would I care if
fake images solve? I dont take fake images. I take real ones.

Here, try a real image: HIP_100453_LIGHT_HA_900s_BIN1_-25C_002_20190429_025821_765_W.FIT
<https://1drv.ms/u/s!AtqRof7LftCbg6l00m9R-xX-ZWcK1Q?e=kzocfw>
________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 7:54 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE

Is anyone else having trouble opening the FITS images at this link?

https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dropbox.com%2Fsh%2Fqlp1qgtaptccy
u4%2FAADaSEl7EE0z1VO298pFGs2Ea%3Fdl%3D0&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C849e235e444245eb991c08d86
290a319%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637367720627761088&amp;sdata=K2mICjIW2r
y8cprmXlI65ZHEOCpNTkSNUSYCQYZhy4A%3D&amp;reserved=0

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center):
https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-physics.com%2Fapcc-
pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C849e235e444245eb991c08d86290a319%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaa
a%7C1%7C0%7C637367720627766049&amp;sdata=mmwb4Io7Yf%2BcG2oIhqZYOs0WdDZyoBpSNermMzgrvcc
%3D&amp;reserved=0 <https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-
physics.com%2Fapcc-
pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C849e235e444245eb991c08d86290a319%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaa
a%7C1%7C0%7C637367720627766049&amp;sdata=mmwb4Io7Yf%2BcG2oIhqZYOs0WdDZyoBpSNermMzgrvcc
%3D&amp;reserved=0>
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver:
https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&;d
ata=02%7C01%7C%7C849e235e444245eb991c08d86290a319%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7
C0%7C637367720627766049&amp;sdata=nlGKYw54PlCNvYTvv9GkSE37xvex8J9GfT5wZhnlE3A%3D&amp;reser
ved=0
<https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&;
data=02%7C01%7C%7C849e235e444245eb991c08d86290a319%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7
C0%7C637367720627766049&amp;sdata=nlGKYw54PlCNvYTvv9GkSE37xvex8J9GfT5wZhnlE3A%3D&amp;reser
ved=0>


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Worsel via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 7:17 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE

That's very weird...

See attached ASTAP screenshot

Bryan







locked Re: #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE #APCC

 

>>> I would go further to say that you think it is a great solution because of the sunk cost you have on your ledger.

haha wow you guys just don't give up on this!

I didn't say it's a great solution, I said it's the solution that works now. it's reliable, doesn't require SGP or other middleware (more points of failure) and I need APPM for what we're doing. I'm not making any argument about it being better than anything else, or free vs. paid. 

As I said twice before, i'm happy to move to something else when it becomes available. right now I think it's the best solution (and afaik the only direct solver solution) for APPM. If ASTAP becomes available and is a better solution, free or not, we'll go with it. If a bag of rocks can solve it better and is more reliable, we'll load up the 'ol pickup with those rocks




On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 8:07 PM Bill Long <bill@...> wrote:
Your commentary proves that the cost/benefit of PinPoint is minimal, and I would go further to say that you think it is a great solution because of the sunk cost you have on your ledger. Not because its actually good from a cost/benefit perspective vs other competing options. 

The sunk cost fallacy. 😉


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Valente <bvalente@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 8:04 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
 
>>> Fine, would you quibble about me asking you to send me $150 plus yearly sub costs since, apparently, it means nothing to you? Are you really that full of yourself?  I have no idea why you would be resistant to this want because it wouldn't affect you anyway; or is being this kind of person is just how you roll?

haha well Dale, i'm not sure how you concluded this was me being full of myself

It's a simple cost benefit analysis.
 
You could make that same statement/argument of AP, or any other vendor in the solution, that they should include xyz because it doesn't work otherwise. 

I'm not interested in throwing my money away, and I'm not made of money.

My position is simply that relative to the cost of everything else, having a working reliable platesolve as part of it is one of the smallest expenses I've encountered. 

You may feel differently about if it's a legitimate or warranted expense, but financially speaking, the above is true.

I use SGP, ASTAP, and a bunch of other software on other setups I have, and I appreciate the advances they  made. And as I said, If and when APPM supports ASTAP or whatever, i'll be happy to move to the best solution, i'm not against that at all. I'm about what works today


On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 7:53 PM Dale Ghent <daleg@...> wrote:

> On Sep 26, 2020, at 10:20 PM, Brian Valente <bvalente@...> wrote:
>
>
> My AP mount (and presumably yours) cost untold thousands of dollars (worth it),
>
> Filters, camera etc. telescope are probably equivalent but likely more.
>
> APCC costs about 1500 full price(?)
>
> and you want to quibble about $150 for a plate solving solution that makes your pointing and tracking significantly improved?
>
>  This totally mystifies me.
>
> APCC Pro and pinpoint to me are the biggest no-brainer decision. It's one of the smallest expenses in this whole setup. it's probably less than just the tax we paid for the camera!

Fine, would you quibble about me asking you to send me $150 plus yearly sub costs since, apparently, it means nothing to you? Are you really that full of yourself?  I have no idea why you would be resistant to this want because it wouldn't affect you anyway; or is being this kind of person is just how you roll?

Conversely, a $1500 suite should not require another $XXX (yearly recurring) dollars of 3rd party /middleware/ in order to just execute a core function. I mean, we're not even using SGPro (or TSX for that matter) for other purposes that are unique to those programs - they're just surrogates for running a plate solver... plate solvers that APPM can do just as well running directly and cut out the extra indirection.

/dale






--
Brian 



Brian Valente



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


locked Re: #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE #APCC

Bill Long
 

Your commentary proves that the cost/benefit of PinPoint is minimal, and I would go further to say that you think it is a great solution because of the sunk cost you have on your ledger. Not because its actually good from a cost/benefit perspective vs other competing options. 

The sunk cost fallacy. 😉


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Valente <bvalente@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 8:04 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
 
>>> Fine, would you quibble about me asking you to send me $150 plus yearly sub costs since, apparently, it means nothing to you? Are you really that full of yourself?  I have no idea why you would be resistant to this want because it wouldn't affect you anyway; or is being this kind of person is just how you roll?

haha well Dale, i'm not sure how you concluded this was me being full of myself

It's a simple cost benefit analysis.
 
You could make that same statement/argument of AP, or any other vendor in the solution, that they should include xyz because it doesn't work otherwise. 

I'm not interested in throwing my money away, and I'm not made of money.

My position is simply that relative to the cost of everything else, having a working reliable platesolve as part of it is one of the smallest expenses I've encountered. 

You may feel differently about if it's a legitimate or warranted expense, but financially speaking, the above is true.

I use SGP, ASTAP, and a bunch of other software on other setups I have, and I appreciate the advances they  made. And as I said, If and when APPM supports ASTAP or whatever, i'll be happy to move to the best solution, i'm not against that at all. I'm about what works today


On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 7:53 PM Dale Ghent <daleg@...> wrote:

> On Sep 26, 2020, at 10:20 PM, Brian Valente <bvalente@...> wrote:
>
>
> My AP mount (and presumably yours) cost untold thousands of dollars (worth it),
>
> Filters, camera etc. telescope are probably equivalent but likely more.
>
> APCC costs about 1500 full price(?)
>
> and you want to quibble about $150 for a plate solving solution that makes your pointing and tracking significantly improved?
>
>  This totally mystifies me.
>
> APCC Pro and pinpoint to me are the biggest no-brainer decision. It's one of the smallest expenses in this whole setup. it's probably less than just the tax we paid for the camera!

Fine, would you quibble about me asking you to send me $150 plus yearly sub costs since, apparently, it means nothing to you? Are you really that full of yourself?  I have no idea why you would be resistant to this want because it wouldn't affect you anyway; or is being this kind of person is just how you roll?

Conversely, a $1500 suite should not require another $XXX (yearly recurring) dollars of 3rd party /middleware/ in order to just execute a core function. I mean, we're not even using SGPro (or TSX for that matter) for other purposes that are unique to those programs - they're just surrogates for running a plate solver... plate solvers that APPM can do just as well running directly and cut out the extra indirection.

/dale






--
Brian 



Brian Valente


locked Re: #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE #APCC

 

>>> Fine, would you quibble about me asking you to send me $150 plus yearly sub costs since, apparently, it means nothing to you? Are you really that full of yourself?  I have no idea why you would be resistant to this want because it wouldn't affect you anyway; or is being this kind of person is just how you roll?

haha well Dale, i'm not sure how you concluded this was me being full of myself

It's a simple cost benefit analysis.
 
You could make that same statement/argument of AP, or any other vendor in the solution, that they should include xyz because it doesn't work otherwise. 

I'm not interested in throwing my money away, and I'm not made of money.

My position is simply that relative to the cost of everything else, having a working reliable platesolve as part of it is one of the smallest expenses I've encountered. 

You may feel differently about if it's a legitimate or warranted expense, but financially speaking, the above is true.

I use SGP, ASTAP, and a bunch of other software on other setups I have, and I appreciate the advances they  made. And as I said, If and when APPM supports ASTAP or whatever, i'll be happy to move to the best solution, i'm not against that at all. I'm about what works today


On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 7:53 PM Dale Ghent <daleg@...> wrote:

> On Sep 26, 2020, at 10:20 PM, Brian Valente <bvalente@...> wrote:
>
>
> My AP mount (and presumably yours) cost untold thousands of dollars (worth it),
>
> Filters, camera etc. telescope are probably equivalent but likely more.
>
> APCC costs about 1500 full price(?)
>
> and you want to quibble about $150 for a plate solving solution that makes your pointing and tracking significantly improved?
>
>  This totally mystifies me.
>
> APCC Pro and pinpoint to me are the biggest no-brainer decision. It's one of the smallest expenses in this whole setup. it's probably less than just the tax we paid for the camera!

Fine, would you quibble about me asking you to send me $150 plus yearly sub costs since, apparently, it means nothing to you? Are you really that full of yourself?  I have no idea why you would be resistant to this want because it wouldn't affect you anyway; or is being this kind of person is just how you roll?

Conversely, a $1500 suite should not require another $XXX (yearly recurring) dollars of 3rd party /middleware/ in order to just execute a core function. I mean, we're not even using SGPro (or TSX for that matter) for other purposes that are unique to those programs - they're just surrogates for running a plate solver... plate solvers that APPM can do just as well running directly and cut out the extra indirection.

/dale






--
Brian 



Brian Valente


locked Re: #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE #APCC

Bill Long
 

The discount is true. I upgraded my Mach 1 from CP3 to a CP4 and I got a ticket in the package offering me a 30% discount on APCC. Sadly I already own pro, and I cant give that to anyone. 🙁 



From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 8:01 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
 
Hi Dale,

> Conversely, a $1500 suite

Please, let's not spread disinformation! Brian's post has a typo.

APCC Pro does not cost $1500. The full price is $500 (actually, $499).

And it is free with the new purchase of 1100GTO-AE, 1100GTO-AEL, 1600GTO-AE, 1600GTO-AEL or Mach2GTO

Lastly, I think there is a 30% discount in the first 45 days after purchasing a new mount or GTOCP4 (but please check the website to
confirm that!)

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-physics.com%2Fapcc-pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7Cc7c9a7af3b0b46d088b908d86291ae21%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637367725110742174&amp;sdata=2TSJl1zYRge38rLWOhzVS%2BZ6WvO7NYi0ybn7x8xp2ms%3D&amp;reserved=0
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7Cc7c9a7af3b0b46d088b908d86291ae21%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637367725110742174&amp;sdata=yLIhOqyvxm1td1S4sPl%2FFdjV4ZoGzdedx2qKoEJCR9s%3D&amp;reserved=0


> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dale Ghent
> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 7:54 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>
>
> > On Sep 26, 2020, at 10:20 PM, Brian Valente <bvalente@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > My AP mount (and presumably yours) cost untold thousands of dollars (worth it),
> >
> > Filters, camera etc. telescope are probably equivalent but likely more.
> >
> > APCC costs about 1500 full price(?)
> >
> > and you want to quibble about $150 for a plate solving solution that makes your pointing and tracking significantly
> improved?
> >
> >  This totally mystifies me.
> >
> > APCC Pro and pinpoint to me are the biggest no-brainer decision. It's one of the smallest expenses in this whole
> setup. it's probably less than just the tax we paid for the camera!
>
> Fine, would you quibble about me asking you to send me $150 plus yearly sub costs since, apparently, it means
> nothing to you? Are you really that full of yourself?  I have no idea why you would be resistant to this want because
> it wouldn't affect you anyway; or is being this kind of person is just how you roll?
>
> Conversely, a $1500 suite should not require another $XXX (yearly recurring) dollars of 3rd party /middleware/ in
> order to just execute a core function. I mean, we're not even using SGPro (or TSX for that matter) for other
> purposes that are unique to those programs - they're just surrogates for running a plate solver... plate solvers that
> APPM can do just as well running directly and cut out the extra indirection.
>
> /dale
>
>








locked Re: #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE #APCC

Ray Gralak
 

Hi Dale,

Conversely, a $1500 suite
Please, let's not spread disinformation! Brian's post has a typo.

APCC Pro does not cost $1500. The full price is $500 (actually, $499).

And it is free with the new purchase of 1100GTO-AE, 1100GTO-AEL, 1600GTO-AE, 1600GTO-AEL or Mach2GTO

Lastly, I think there is a 30% discount in the first 45 days after purchasing a new mount or GTOCP4 (but please check the website to
confirm that!)

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dale Ghent
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 7:54 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE


On Sep 26, 2020, at 10:20 PM, Brian Valente <bvalente@gmail.com> wrote:


My AP mount (and presumably yours) cost untold thousands of dollars (worth it),

Filters, camera etc. telescope are probably equivalent but likely more.

APCC costs about 1500 full price(?)

and you want to quibble about $150 for a plate solving solution that makes your pointing and tracking significantly
improved?

This totally mystifies me.

APCC Pro and pinpoint to me are the biggest no-brainer decision. It's one of the smallest expenses in this whole
setup. it's probably less than just the tax we paid for the camera!

Fine, would you quibble about me asking you to send me $150 plus yearly sub costs since, apparently, it means
nothing to you? Are you really that full of yourself? I have no idea why you would be resistant to this want because
it wouldn't affect you anyway; or is being this kind of person is just how you roll?

Conversely, a $1500 suite should not require another $XXX (yearly recurring) dollars of 3rd party /middleware/ in
order to just execute a core function. I mean, we're not even using SGPro (or TSX for that matter) for other
purposes that are unique to those programs - they're just surrogates for running a plate solver... plate solvers that
APPM can do just as well running directly and cut out the extra indirection.

/dale


locked Re: #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE #APCC

Bill Long
 

I opened them, they are fake images with trashed FITS headers that are barely even passable. Why would I care if fake images solve? I dont take fake images. I take real ones.


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 7:54 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
 


locked Re: #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE #APCC

Ray Gralak
 

Is anyone else having trouble opening the FITS images at this link?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/qlp1qgtaptccyu4/AADaSEl7EE0z1VO298pFGs2Ea?dl=0

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Worsel via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 7:17 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE

That's very weird...

See attached ASTAP screenshot

Bryan


locked Re: #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE #APCC

Dale Ghent
 

On Sep 26, 2020, at 10:20 PM, Brian Valente <bvalente@gmail.com> wrote:


My AP mount (and presumably yours) cost untold thousands of dollars (worth it),

Filters, camera etc. telescope are probably equivalent but likely more.

APCC costs about 1500 full price(?)

and you want to quibble about $150 for a plate solving solution that makes your pointing and tracking significantly improved?

This totally mystifies me.

APCC Pro and pinpoint to me are the biggest no-brainer decision. It's one of the smallest expenses in this whole setup. it's probably less than just the tax we paid for the camera!
Fine, would you quibble about me asking you to send me $150 plus yearly sub costs since, apparently, it means nothing to you? Are you really that full of yourself? I have no idea why you would be resistant to this want because it wouldn't affect you anyway; or is being this kind of person is just how you roll?

Conversely, a $1500 suite should not require another $XXX (yearly recurring) dollars of 3rd party /middleware/ in order to just execute a core function. I mean, we're not even using SGPro (or TSX for that matter) for other purposes that are unique to those programs - they're just surrogates for running a plate solver... plate solvers that APPM can do just as well running directly and cut out the extra indirection.

/dale


locked Re: #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE #APCC

Bill Long
 

Support platesolve 2, support ANSVR, support ASTAP. The point really is that limiting the options to ancient software (SkyX, Maxim, and PinPoint are ancient) and having the only modern option being SGP (which not everyone uses -- Voyager, NINA, CCDCiel, etc are things ya know...) is a slap in the face to people that buy APCC Pro all excited to use the new features only to find out that they need to open their wallet again, not for good reason... 



From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 7:35 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
 
Bill,

I hear you and others. I am just trying to assess the accuracy of ASTAP's plate solves.

I don't really care that it is free or not, but others do.

I brought up the point about it being a free *beta* because that could mean it will not be free later, thus defeating the reason
most seem to want support for it.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-physics.com%2Fapcc-pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C44731d72ce9047dda2bb08d8628e027c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637367709345122725&amp;sdata=KM8JIBjQ2g%2FCW7Rxp521ySs2BxvwkDfvVkoz6UQXoM8%3D&amp;reserved=0
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C44731d72ce9047dda2bb08d8628e027c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637367709345122725&amp;sdata=jD9Qa%2BDjqIVh%2B9oVj67vdmWWChQ9y%2Fdk7mFRdlPckwY%3D&amp;reserved=0

> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Long
> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 7:17 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>
> Ray,
>
> I dont "care that its free" but since you went there, I will be more frank. I think Pinpoint is ancient, overpriced, and
> along with everything else the author of that software writes - serves no other purpose than to continually gouge
> customers for no good reason. You need to separate "free" from modern in your mindset here.
>
> Tell ya what. I have some clear skies on Tuesday and will be testing out my new (to me) PL16803 camera on my
> AP 130 GTX. You are welcome to ride shotgun and watch the misery I have to go through when solving. Then I will
> show you how accurate and lightning fast ASTAP is when used to center my objects to the harsh levels I demand
> (10 arc-seconds tolerance).
>
> This isnt the first time you have gone on a trip over the concept of "free". I do support developers well for products I
> think hit the watermark of useful and worth the price of admission in the modern world we exist in. I do not think
> Pinpoint (which is basically just a commercialized ripoff of Astronmetry.net) meets that bar.
>
> -Bill
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 7:11 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>
> Dale,
>
> The issue I care about is the accuracy of its plate solves.
>
> The issue you and others seem to most care about, is that it is free!
>
> I would rather have slower, yet more accurate plate solves, so tracking rate modelling will be as accurate as
> possible. Until I can
> run through a set of images to test accuracy I won't know.
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of PEMPro
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center):
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-physics.com%2Fapcc-
> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C0f43f35b5241494cfa5d08d8628aa439%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
> %7C1%7C0%7C637367694879510877&amp;sdata=l7FBHZPAP5ARpVE9zPFbEBc3hJOFGT6mWFYqyno3Ud8%3
> D&amp;reserved=0 <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-
> physics.com%2Fapcc-
> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C0f43f35b5241494cfa5d08d8628aa439%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
> %7C1%7C0%7C637367694879510877&amp;sdata=l7FBHZPAP5ARpVE9zPFbEBc3hJOFGT6mWFYqyno3Ud8%3
> D&amp;reserved=0>
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver:
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;dat
> a=02%7C01%7C%7C0f43f35b5241494cfa5d08d8628aa439%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%
> 7C637367694879510877&amp;sdata=7QUjQtuk1iWkGDsK5a5%2B%2BLZkjyAuPQ%2FGR2Y3%2BnSWvKQ%3D
> &amp;reserved=0
> <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;d
> ata=02%7C01%7C%7C0f43f35b5241494cfa5d08d8628aa439%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0
> %7C637367694879510877&amp;sdata=7QUjQtuk1iWkGDsK5a5%2B%2BLZkjyAuPQ%2FGR2Y3%2BnSWvKQ%3
> D&amp;reserved=0>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dale Ghent
> > Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 6:54 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Sep 26, 2020, at 9:24 PM, Ray Gralak <groups3@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Dale,
> > >
> > > I'm not saying this is the case here but surely you must know that open source does not necessarily mean it has
> > to be free, or
> > > remain free?
> >
> > The ASTAP code is licensed under a very tested and common open source license, and the code as it is will
> remain
> > free under the terms of that license. The only way that code could be made non-free is if all contributors to that
> code
> > all voted favorably to change the license to a non-open one. If that happened the code as it was up to that point
> > remains open, as it existed under the open license. Subsequent revisions will continue under the non-open
> license.
> > This still allows someone to fork the codebase prior to the re-licensing and continue developing the software on
> their
> > own, perhaps under a different organization or project, under the original open license. That's just how it works,
> and
> > why I say that the code cannot just disappear.
> >
> > Believe me, Ray, it's not so common and certainly isn't as dire as a lot of people seem to make it out to be. Open
> > source licenses would be pretty weak things if they permitted this stuff and we would not see open source
> > frameworks, libraries, apps and entire operating environments flourish and end up in things from our home router
> to
> > our car infotainment to medical devices if this were a real fear. Another thing that seems to get people confused is
> > having an open source program but charging for support, which is a common model in the open source community
> > that is used to support development.
> >
> > > I was more concerned that this is just a beta and doesn't seem to be able to solve the images I gave to it.
> > >
> > > The purpose for this test is to determine the accuracy of the solutioms.
> >
> > Right, so I don't know what you got from the NASA server exactly so I passed you the list of things that make
> > ASTAP work well. It's designed to be a solver for imagers and so it's really geared towards consuming data that
> > would come from such an environment. Stretched, processed, and whatever else the NASA sky survey server
> > (slowly) regurgitates might not fit the bill in that regard.
> >
> > /dale
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>







locked Re: #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE #APCC

 

I see we agree on many other things ;)





On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 7:35 PM Bill Long <bill@...> wrote:
Pinpoint is not a requirement to get that benefit. That is my whole point here. APCC Pro is excellent and well worth the money. I have said that here, on CN, and anywhere else I can! 🙂 

PEMPro is another example of excellent software that is well worth the price for it. PEMPro is $150 and PinPoint is $150. One of them is priceless for PE correction, Polar Alignment, assessing backlash, etc. The other is so dated that it misses the mark on value because its magic is obsolete and well-reproduced by the community and even bested by the community. 

I would dig my talons into ACP on this thread, but that would be off-topic. I will say thats another ancient pile of scripts (from the same dev) that has its days numbered by the community. 

-Bill 


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Valente <bvalente@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 7:30 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
 
>>> Pinpoint for me is a no-brainer to NOT purchase.

fair enough, everyone has their own view of things

And I generally agree, pinpoint compared to other solutions does seem a bit outdated on a number of fronts. 

But I bought Pinpoint and I'm really enjoying the benefits of APCC/APPM right now, particularly doing unguided exposures on the CDK17, which wouldn't be possible otherwise.

If APCC supports ASTAP in the future (or whatever else) and does an equally good job, I'll revisit it then. 





On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 7:25 PM Bill Long <bill@...> wrote:
APCC is $500. That is well worth the price of admission as it is a very well featured piece of software that extends the experience with the product greatly.

PinPoint is ancient old tech that has no place in its asking price at all. No one in the modern world with a clue would spend $150 for software that does nothing other than Platesolve. That might have been cool interesting stuff 15 years ago, but that was then, this is now, and its a waste.

The value prop I get from my mount does not change at all either way. Pinpoint for me is a no-brainer to NOT purchase. I am also 41 and work in technology, so perhaps that skews my view of this situation for folks that may be in later stages of life.



From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Valente <bvalente@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 7:20 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
 

My AP mount (and presumably yours) cost untold thousands of dollars (worth it), 

Filters, camera etc. telescope are probably equivalent but likely more. 

APCC costs about 1500 full price(?)

and you want to quibble about $150 for a plate solving solution that makes your pointing and tracking significantly improved?

 This totally mystifies me. 

APCC Pro and pinpoint to me are the biggest no-brainer decision. It's one of the smallest expenses in this whole setup. it's probably less than just the tax we paid for the camera!



On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 6:35 PM Dale Ghent <daleg@...> wrote:

So here's the the main issue I have that has been preventing me from wanting to upgrade from Standard to Pro: I have to buy other software to make APPM work, and APPM is really one of the primary reasons for going to APCC Pro.

ANSVR, Astrometry.Net, ASTAP, ASPS, PlateSolve2... these are all free(*) solvers with various qualities and capabilities. But to use them with APPM, I have to put some other non-free (and now, subscription-based) software in front of them, such as TSX, SGPro or PinPoint. I have -zero- other uses for such software; if I bought (or subscribed) to them, I would be doing so only to be able to use APPM. This really feels like it could be a better arrangement.

I think what people, and certainly myself, would like is for APPM to not have this dependency and for it to be able to plate solve on its own using any (or all!) of the aforementioned solving suites. Let APPM run an ASCOM camera, and devise an internal Interface that would let you make a driver for each of whatever solvers you'd like to support. At that point, the user now has the power to choose which solver they wish to use, wether it be ASTAP or PS2 or whatever else - and do so without the middleware.

The internal interface for plate solvers is what we had to do in NINA because we realized that different folks have their preferences for solvers, sometimes nearing total religious adherence. So if someone popped up asking if they could use some new and previously-unheard of XYZ Solver with the app, all we need to know is how to make XYZ Solver solve an image that we pass to it and how to parse its results through whatever means it makes those results available. Everyone is happy and there's yet another solver listed in the drop-down menu of solvers to choose from.

> On Sep 26, 2020, at 1:04 PM, Ray Gralak <groups3@...> wrote:
>
>> Voyager uses ASTAP natively and it works like a champ. APPM doesn't solve repetitively enough for me to be
>> concerned about it.
>
> I don't even understand what that means?
>
> APPM does not natively plate solve. It uses an external plate solver. It simply reads the RA/Dec and other values from the solver,
> or intermediary app.
>
> For plate-solving I typically use PinPoint and all-sky backup to Astrometry.Net. I've done many thousands of plate solves. Maybe
> even hundreds of thousands. Unless there is a tree, clouds, or something else obscuring the sky, plate solves have been extremely
> reliable at the image scale I typically use (around 1.6 arc-sec/pixel). That said, PinPoint can have problems in areas of the sky
> where there are too many stars in the selected database, typically around the milkyway.
>
> If the image area is smaller, for example because of a longer focal length, it may be more of a challenge.
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of PEMPro
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Long
>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 9:48 AM
>> To: Ray Gralak; main@ap-gto.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>
>> Voyager uses ASTAP natively and it works like a champ. APPM doesn't solve repetitively enough for me to be
>> concerned about it.
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 9:26 AM
>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>
>>> It could be as simple as the fact that APPM is doing a large number of plate solves in a short period of time.
>>
>> I hope that's not true because it might make ASTAP a poor choice for plate solving.
>>
>> -Ray Gralak
>> Author of PEMPro
>> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center):
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-
>> physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0>
>> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;d
>> ata=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0
>> %7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&am
>> p;reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;
>> data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C
>> 0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&a
>> mp;reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of W Hilmo
>>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 8:50 AM
>>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>>
>>> I agree.
>>>
>>> I suspect that it's an ASTAP problem, but something that APPM is doing is exposing it.  It could be as simple as
>> the
>>> fact that APPM is doing a large number of plate solves in a short period of time.  As I mentioned, I've not had time
>>> to do any investigation at all yet.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Gralak
>>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2020 6:52 PM
>>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>>
>>>> I switched to ASTAP for my plate solves with SGP and am seeing what is
>>>> probably the same issue described in the first post of this thread.
>>>
>>> APPM doesn't know which plate solver is in use when SGPro is used for plate solving. APPM operates the same
>>> way for all SGPro plate solvers because APPM uses the SGPro API for plate solving. Since PlateSolve2 doesn't
>>> seem to show the same problem, it seems likely that the problem is with how SGPro handles ASTAP.
>>>
>>> -Ray Gralak
>>> Author of PEMPro
>>> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center):
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-
>> physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0>
>>> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;d
>> ata=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0
>> %7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&am
>> p;reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;
>> data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C
>> 0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&a
>> mp;reserved=0>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf
>>>> Of W Hilmo
>>>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2020 9:29 AM
>>>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>>>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>>>
>>>> I switched to ASTAP for my plate solves with SGP and am seeing what is
>>>> probably the same issue described in the first post of this thread.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>








--
Brian 



Brian Valente



--
Brian 



Brian Valente



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


locked Re: #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE #APCC

Bill Long
 

Wrong. But this isnt a debate thread so I will leave that as my only retort. 


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Mlooker <look-up1@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 7:36 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
 
Bingo, yes they do care that it is free, everything is overpriced when
its not free, or ancient or not for them or...

On 9/26/2020 7:11 PM, Ray Gralak wrote:
> Dale,
>
> The issue I care about is the accuracy of its plate solves.
>
> The issue you and others seem to most care about, is that it is free!
>
> I would rather have slower, yet more accurate plate solves, so tracking rate modelling will be as accurate as possible. Until I can
> run through a set of images to test accuracy I won't know.
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of PEMPro
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-physics.com%2Fapcc-pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C082457b7332d44175fa508d8628e1c27%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637367709776010956&amp;sdata=HZ262MGyAC9SD2zy4zx1iv2K1Ktk3%2FjGcgLCp22M5WQ%3D&amp;reserved=0
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C082457b7332d44175fa508d8628e1c27%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637367709776010956&amp;sdata=1SrRO%2BOSwS8KHeUn8%2BjP2Yf%2BbssA%2FTQgI1apY3B4ymI%3D&amp;reserved=0
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dale Ghent
>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 6:54 PM
>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 26, 2020, at 9:24 PM, Ray Gralak <groups3@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Dale,
>>>
>>> I'm not saying this is the case here but surely you must know that open source does not necessarily mean it has
>> to be free, or
>>> remain free?
>> The ASTAP code is licensed under a very tested and common open source license, and the code as it is will remain
>> free under the terms of that license. The only way that code could be made non-free is if all contributors to that code
>> all voted favorably to change the license to a non-open one. If that happened the code as it was up to that point
>> remains open, as it existed under the open license. Subsequent revisions will continue under the non-open license.
>> This still allows someone to fork the codebase prior to the re-licensing and continue developing the software on their
>> own, perhaps under a different organization or project, under the original open license. That's just how it works, and
>> why I say that the code cannot just disappear.
>>
>> Believe me, Ray, it's not so common and certainly isn't as dire as a lot of people seem to make it out to be. Open
>> source licenses would be pretty weak things if they permitted this stuff and we would not see open source
>> frameworks, libraries, apps and entire operating environments flourish and end up in things from our home router to
>> our car infotainment to medical devices if this were a real fear. Another thing that seems to get people confused is
>> having an open source program but charging for support, which is a common model in the open source community
>> that is used to support development.
>>
>>> I was more concerned that this is just a beta and doesn't seem to be able to solve the images I gave to it.
>>>
>>> The purpose for this test is to determine the accuracy of the solutioms.
>> Right, so I don't know what you got from the NASA server exactly so I passed you the list of things that make
>> ASTAP work well. It's designed to be a solver for imagers and so it's really geared towards consuming data that
>> would come from such an environment. Stretched, processed, and whatever else the NASA sky survey server
>> (slowly) regurgitates might not fit the bill in that regard.
>>
>> /dale
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>






locked Re: #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE #APCC

Mlooker
 

Bingo, yes they do care that it is free, everything is overpriced when its not free, or ancient or not for them or...

On 9/26/2020 7:11 PM, Ray Gralak wrote:
Dale,

The issue I care about is the accuracy of its plate solves.

The issue you and others seem to most care about, is that it is free!

I would rather have slower, yet more accurate plate solves, so tracking rate modelling will be as accurate as possible. Until I can
run through a set of images to test accuracy I won't know.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dale Ghent
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 6:54 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE



On Sep 26, 2020, at 9:24 PM, Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com> wrote:

Hi Dale,

I'm not saying this is the case here but surely you must know that open source does not necessarily mean it has
to be free, or
remain free?
The ASTAP code is licensed under a very tested and common open source license, and the code as it is will remain
free under the terms of that license. The only way that code could be made non-free is if all contributors to that code
all voted favorably to change the license to a non-open one. If that happened the code as it was up to that point
remains open, as it existed under the open license. Subsequent revisions will continue under the non-open license.
This still allows someone to fork the codebase prior to the re-licensing and continue developing the software on their
own, perhaps under a different organization or project, under the original open license. That's just how it works, and
why I say that the code cannot just disappear.

Believe me, Ray, it's not so common and certainly isn't as dire as a lot of people seem to make it out to be. Open
source licenses would be pretty weak things if they permitted this stuff and we would not see open source
frameworks, libraries, apps and entire operating environments flourish and end up in things from our home router to
our car infotainment to medical devices if this were a real fear. Another thing that seems to get people confused is
having an open source program but charging for support, which is a common model in the open source community
that is used to support development.

I was more concerned that this is just a beta and doesn't seem to be able to solve the images I gave to it.

The purpose for this test is to determine the accuracy of the solutioms.
Right, so I don't know what you got from the NASA server exactly so I passed you the list of things that make
ASTAP work well. It's designed to be a solver for imagers and so it's really geared towards consuming data that
would come from such an environment. Stretched, processed, and whatever else the NASA sky survey server
(slowly) regurgitates might not fit the bill in that regard.

/dale





locked Re: #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE #APCC

Ray Gralak
 

Bill,

I hear you and others. I am just trying to assess the accuracy of ASTAP's plate solves.

I don't really care that it is free or not, but others do.

I brought up the point about it being a free *beta* because that could mean it will not be free later, thus defeating the reason
most seem to want support for it.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Long
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 7:17 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE

Ray,

I dont "care that its free" but since you went there, I will be more frank. I think Pinpoint is ancient, overpriced, and
along with everything else the author of that software writes - serves no other purpose than to continually gouge
customers for no good reason. You need to separate "free" from modern in your mindset here.

Tell ya what. I have some clear skies on Tuesday and will be testing out my new (to me) PL16803 camera on my
AP 130 GTX. You are welcome to ride shotgun and watch the misery I have to go through when solving. Then I will
show you how accurate and lightning fast ASTAP is when used to center my objects to the harsh levels I demand
(10 arc-seconds tolerance).

This isnt the first time you have gone on a trip over the concept of "free". I do support developers well for products I
think hit the watermark of useful and worth the price of admission in the modern world we exist in. I do not think
Pinpoint (which is basically just a commercialized ripoff of Astronmetry.net) meets that bar.

-Bill

________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 7:11 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE

Dale,

The issue I care about is the accuracy of its plate solves.

The issue you and others seem to most care about, is that it is free!

I would rather have slower, yet more accurate plate solves, so tracking rate modelling will be as accurate as
possible. Until I can
run through a set of images to test accuracy I won't know.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center):
https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-physics.com%2Fapcc-
pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C0f43f35b5241494cfa5d08d8628aa439%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
%7C1%7C0%7C637367694879510877&amp;sdata=l7FBHZPAP5ARpVE9zPFbEBc3hJOFGT6mWFYqyno3Ud8%3
D&amp;reserved=0 <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-
physics.com%2Fapcc-
pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C0f43f35b5241494cfa5d08d8628aa439%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
%7C1%7C0%7C637367694879510877&amp;sdata=l7FBHZPAP5ARpVE9zPFbEBc3hJOFGT6mWFYqyno3Ud8%3
D&amp;reserved=0>
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver:
https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&;dat
a=02%7C01%7C%7C0f43f35b5241494cfa5d08d8628aa439%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%
7C637367694879510877&amp;sdata=7QUjQtuk1iWkGDsK5a5%2B%2BLZkjyAuPQ%2FGR2Y3%2BnSWvKQ%3D
&amp;reserved=0
<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&;d
ata=02%7C01%7C%7C0f43f35b5241494cfa5d08d8628aa439%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0
%7C637367694879510877&amp;sdata=7QUjQtuk1iWkGDsK5a5%2B%2BLZkjyAuPQ%2FGR2Y3%2BnSWvKQ%3
D&amp;reserved=0>


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dale Ghent
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 6:54 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE



On Sep 26, 2020, at 9:24 PM, Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com> wrote:

Hi Dale,

I'm not saying this is the case here but surely you must know that open source does not necessarily mean it has
to be free, or
remain free?
The ASTAP code is licensed under a very tested and common open source license, and the code as it is will
remain
free under the terms of that license. The only way that code could be made non-free is if all contributors to that
code
all voted favorably to change the license to a non-open one. If that happened the code as it was up to that point
remains open, as it existed under the open license. Subsequent revisions will continue under the non-open
license.
This still allows someone to fork the codebase prior to the re-licensing and continue developing the software on
their
own, perhaps under a different organization or project, under the original open license. That's just how it works,
and
why I say that the code cannot just disappear.

Believe me, Ray, it's not so common and certainly isn't as dire as a lot of people seem to make it out to be. Open
source licenses would be pretty weak things if they permitted this stuff and we would not see open source
frameworks, libraries, apps and entire operating environments flourish and end up in things from our home router
to
our car infotainment to medical devices if this were a real fear. Another thing that seems to get people confused is
having an open source program but charging for support, which is a common model in the open source community
that is used to support development.

I was more concerned that this is just a beta and doesn't seem to be able to solve the images I gave to it.

The purpose for this test is to determine the accuracy of the solutioms.
Right, so I don't know what you got from the NASA server exactly so I passed you the list of things that make
ASTAP work well. It's designed to be a solver for imagers and so it's really geared towards consuming data that
would come from such an environment. Stretched, processed, and whatever else the NASA sky survey server
(slowly) regurgitates might not fit the bill in that regard.

/dale









locked Re: #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE #APCC

Bill Long
 

Pinpoint is not a requirement to get that benefit. That is my whole point here. APCC Pro is excellent and well worth the money. I have said that here, on CN, and anywhere else I can! 🙂 

PEMPro is another example of excellent software that is well worth the price for it. PEMPro is $150 and PinPoint is $150. One of them is priceless for PE correction, Polar Alignment, assessing backlash, etc. The other is so dated that it misses the mark on value because its magic is obsolete and well-reproduced by the community and even bested by the community. 

I would dig my talons into ACP on this thread, but that would be off-topic. I will say thats another ancient pile of scripts (from the same dev) that has its days numbered by the community. 

-Bill 


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Valente <bvalente@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 7:30 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
 
>>> Pinpoint for me is a no-brainer to NOT purchase.

fair enough, everyone has their own view of things

And I generally agree, pinpoint compared to other solutions does seem a bit outdated on a number of fronts. 

But I bought Pinpoint and I'm really enjoying the benefits of APCC/APPM right now, particularly doing unguided exposures on the CDK17, which wouldn't be possible otherwise.

If APCC supports ASTAP in the future (or whatever else) and does an equally good job, I'll revisit it then. 





On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 7:25 PM Bill Long <bill@...> wrote:
APCC is $500. That is well worth the price of admission as it is a very well featured piece of software that extends the experience with the product greatly.

PinPoint is ancient old tech that has no place in its asking price at all. No one in the modern world with a clue would spend $150 for software that does nothing other than Platesolve. That might have been cool interesting stuff 15 years ago, but that was then, this is now, and its a waste.

The value prop I get from my mount does not change at all either way. Pinpoint for me is a no-brainer to NOT purchase. I am also 41 and work in technology, so perhaps that skews my view of this situation for folks that may be in later stages of life.



From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Valente <bvalente@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 7:20 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
 

My AP mount (and presumably yours) cost untold thousands of dollars (worth it), 

Filters, camera etc. telescope are probably equivalent but likely more. 

APCC costs about 1500 full price(?)

and you want to quibble about $150 for a plate solving solution that makes your pointing and tracking significantly improved?

 This totally mystifies me. 

APCC Pro and pinpoint to me are the biggest no-brainer decision. It's one of the smallest expenses in this whole setup. it's probably less than just the tax we paid for the camera!



On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 6:35 PM Dale Ghent <daleg@...> wrote:

So here's the the main issue I have that has been preventing me from wanting to upgrade from Standard to Pro: I have to buy other software to make APPM work, and APPM is really one of the primary reasons for going to APCC Pro.

ANSVR, Astrometry.Net, ASTAP, ASPS, PlateSolve2... these are all free(*) solvers with various qualities and capabilities. But to use them with APPM, I have to put some other non-free (and now, subscription-based) software in front of them, such as TSX, SGPro or PinPoint. I have -zero- other uses for such software; if I bought (or subscribed) to them, I would be doing so only to be able to use APPM. This really feels like it could be a better arrangement.

I think what people, and certainly myself, would like is for APPM to not have this dependency and for it to be able to plate solve on its own using any (or all!) of the aforementioned solving suites. Let APPM run an ASCOM camera, and devise an internal Interface that would let you make a driver for each of whatever solvers you'd like to support. At that point, the user now has the power to choose which solver they wish to use, wether it be ASTAP or PS2 or whatever else - and do so without the middleware.

The internal interface for plate solvers is what we had to do in NINA because we realized that different folks have their preferences for solvers, sometimes nearing total religious adherence. So if someone popped up asking if they could use some new and previously-unheard of XYZ Solver with the app, all we need to know is how to make XYZ Solver solve an image that we pass to it and how to parse its results through whatever means it makes those results available. Everyone is happy and there's yet another solver listed in the drop-down menu of solvers to choose from.

> On Sep 26, 2020, at 1:04 PM, Ray Gralak <groups3@...> wrote:
>
>> Voyager uses ASTAP natively and it works like a champ. APPM doesn't solve repetitively enough for me to be
>> concerned about it.
>
> I don't even understand what that means?
>
> APPM does not natively plate solve. It uses an external plate solver. It simply reads the RA/Dec and other values from the solver,
> or intermediary app.
>
> For plate-solving I typically use PinPoint and all-sky backup to Astrometry.Net. I've done many thousands of plate solves. Maybe
> even hundreds of thousands. Unless there is a tree, clouds, or something else obscuring the sky, plate solves have been extremely
> reliable at the image scale I typically use (around 1.6 arc-sec/pixel). That said, PinPoint can have problems in areas of the sky
> where there are too many stars in the selected database, typically around the milkyway.
>
> If the image area is smaller, for example because of a longer focal length, it may be more of a challenge.
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of PEMPro
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Long
>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 9:48 AM
>> To: Ray Gralak; main@ap-gto.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>
>> Voyager uses ASTAP natively and it works like a champ. APPM doesn't solve repetitively enough for me to be
>> concerned about it.
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 9:26 AM
>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>
>>> It could be as simple as the fact that APPM is doing a large number of plate solves in a short period of time.
>>
>> I hope that's not true because it might make ASTAP a poor choice for plate solving.
>>
>> -Ray Gralak
>> Author of PEMPro
>> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center):
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-
>> physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0>
>> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;d
>> ata=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0
>> %7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&am
>> p;reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;
>> data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C
>> 0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&a
>> mp;reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of W Hilmo
>>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 8:50 AM
>>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>>
>>> I agree.
>>>
>>> I suspect that it's an ASTAP problem, but something that APPM is doing is exposing it.  It could be as simple as
>> the
>>> fact that APPM is doing a large number of plate solves in a short period of time.  As I mentioned, I've not had time
>>> to do any investigation at all yet.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Gralak
>>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2020 6:52 PM
>>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>>
>>>> I switched to ASTAP for my plate solves with SGP and am seeing what is
>>>> probably the same issue described in the first post of this thread.
>>>
>>> APPM doesn't know which plate solver is in use when SGPro is used for plate solving. APPM operates the same
>>> way for all SGPro plate solvers because APPM uses the SGPro API for plate solving. Since PlateSolve2 doesn't
>>> seem to show the same problem, it seems likely that the problem is with how SGPro handles ASTAP.
>>>
>>> -Ray Gralak
>>> Author of PEMPro
>>> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center):
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-
>> physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0>
>>> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;d
>> ata=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0
>> %7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&am
>> p;reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;
>> data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C
>> 0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&a
>> mp;reserved=0>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf
>>>> Of W Hilmo
>>>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2020 9:29 AM
>>>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>>>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>>>
>>>> I switched to ASTAP for my plate solves with SGP and am seeing what is
>>>> probably the same issue described in the first post of this thread.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>








--
Brian 



Brian Valente



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


locked Re: #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE #APCC

 

>>> Pinpoint for me is a no-brainer to NOT purchase.

fair enough, everyone has their own view of things

And I generally agree, pinpoint compared to other solutions does seem a bit outdated on a number of fronts. 

But I bought Pinpoint and I'm really enjoying the benefits of APCC/APPM right now, particularly doing unguided exposures on the CDK17, which wouldn't be possible otherwise.

If APCC supports ASTAP in the future (or whatever else) and does an equally good job, I'll revisit it then. 





On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 7:25 PM Bill Long <bill@...> wrote:
APCC is $500. That is well worth the price of admission as it is a very well featured piece of software that extends the experience with the product greatly.

PinPoint is ancient old tech that has no place in its asking price at all. No one in the modern world with a clue would spend $150 for software that does nothing other than Platesolve. That might have been cool interesting stuff 15 years ago, but that was then, this is now, and its a waste.

The value prop I get from my mount does not change at all either way. Pinpoint for me is a no-brainer to NOT purchase. I am also 41 and work in technology, so perhaps that skews my view of this situation for folks that may be in later stages of life.



From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Valente <bvalente@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 7:20 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
 

My AP mount (and presumably yours) cost untold thousands of dollars (worth it), 

Filters, camera etc. telescope are probably equivalent but likely more. 

APCC costs about 1500 full price(?)

and you want to quibble about $150 for a plate solving solution that makes your pointing and tracking significantly improved?

 This totally mystifies me. 

APCC Pro and pinpoint to me are the biggest no-brainer decision. It's one of the smallest expenses in this whole setup. it's probably less than just the tax we paid for the camera!



On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 6:35 PM Dale Ghent <daleg@...> wrote:

So here's the the main issue I have that has been preventing me from wanting to upgrade from Standard to Pro: I have to buy other software to make APPM work, and APPM is really one of the primary reasons for going to APCC Pro.

ANSVR, Astrometry.Net, ASTAP, ASPS, PlateSolve2... these are all free(*) solvers with various qualities and capabilities. But to use them with APPM, I have to put some other non-free (and now, subscription-based) software in front of them, such as TSX, SGPro or PinPoint. I have -zero- other uses for such software; if I bought (or subscribed) to them, I would be doing so only to be able to use APPM. This really feels like it could be a better arrangement.

I think what people, and certainly myself, would like is for APPM to not have this dependency and for it to be able to plate solve on its own using any (or all!) of the aforementioned solving suites. Let APPM run an ASCOM camera, and devise an internal Interface that would let you make a driver for each of whatever solvers you'd like to support. At that point, the user now has the power to choose which solver they wish to use, wether it be ASTAP or PS2 or whatever else - and do so without the middleware.

The internal interface for plate solvers is what we had to do in NINA because we realized that different folks have their preferences for solvers, sometimes nearing total religious adherence. So if someone popped up asking if they could use some new and previously-unheard of XYZ Solver with the app, all we need to know is how to make XYZ Solver solve an image that we pass to it and how to parse its results through whatever means it makes those results available. Everyone is happy and there's yet another solver listed in the drop-down menu of solvers to choose from.

> On Sep 26, 2020, at 1:04 PM, Ray Gralak <groups3@...> wrote:
>
>> Voyager uses ASTAP natively and it works like a champ. APPM doesn't solve repetitively enough for me to be
>> concerned about it.
>
> I don't even understand what that means?
>
> APPM does not natively plate solve. It uses an external plate solver. It simply reads the RA/Dec and other values from the solver,
> or intermediary app.
>
> For plate-solving I typically use PinPoint and all-sky backup to Astrometry.Net. I've done many thousands of plate solves. Maybe
> even hundreds of thousands. Unless there is a tree, clouds, or something else obscuring the sky, plate solves have been extremely
> reliable at the image scale I typically use (around 1.6 arc-sec/pixel). That said, PinPoint can have problems in areas of the sky
> where there are too many stars in the selected database, typically around the milkyway.
>
> If the image area is smaller, for example because of a longer focal length, it may be more of a challenge.
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of PEMPro
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Long
>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 9:48 AM
>> To: Ray Gralak; main@ap-gto.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>
>> Voyager uses ASTAP natively and it works like a champ. APPM doesn't solve repetitively enough for me to be
>> concerned about it.
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 9:26 AM
>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>
>>> It could be as simple as the fact that APPM is doing a large number of plate solves in a short period of time.
>>
>> I hope that's not true because it might make ASTAP a poor choice for plate solving.
>>
>> -Ray Gralak
>> Author of PEMPro
>> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center):
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-
>> physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0>
>> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;d
>> ata=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0
>> %7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&am
>> p;reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;
>> data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C
>> 0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&a
>> mp;reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of W Hilmo
>>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 8:50 AM
>>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>>
>>> I agree.
>>>
>>> I suspect that it's an ASTAP problem, but something that APPM is doing is exposing it.  It could be as simple as
>> the
>>> fact that APPM is doing a large number of plate solves in a short period of time.  As I mentioned, I've not had time
>>> to do any investigation at all yet.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Gralak
>>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2020 6:52 PM
>>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>>
>>>> I switched to ASTAP for my plate solves with SGP and am seeing what is
>>>> probably the same issue described in the first post of this thread.
>>>
>>> APPM doesn't know which plate solver is in use when SGPro is used for plate solving. APPM operates the same
>>> way for all SGPro plate solvers because APPM uses the SGPro API for plate solving. Since PlateSolve2 doesn't
>>> seem to show the same problem, it seems likely that the problem is with how SGPro handles ASTAP.
>>>
>>> -Ray Gralak
>>> Author of PEMPro
>>> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center):
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-
>> physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0>
>>> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;d
>> ata=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0
>> %7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&am
>> p;reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;
>> data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C
>> 0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&a
>> mp;reserved=0>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf
>>>> Of W Hilmo
>>>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2020 9:29 AM
>>>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>>>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>>>
>>>> I switched to ASTAP for my plate solves with SGP and am seeing what is
>>>> probably the same issue described in the first post of this thread.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>








--
Brian 



Brian Valente



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


locked Re: #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE #APCC

Bill Long
 

APCC is $500. That is well worth the price of admission as it is a very well featured piece of software that extends the experience with the product greatly.

PinPoint is ancient old tech that has no place in its asking price at all. No one in the modern world with a clue would spend $150 for software that does nothing other than Platesolve. That might have been cool interesting stuff 15 years ago, but that was then, this is now, and its a waste.

The value prop I get from my mount does not change at all either way. Pinpoint for me is a no-brainer to NOT purchase. I am also 41 and work in technology, so perhaps that skews my view of this situation for folks that may be in later stages of life.



From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Valente <bvalente@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 7:20 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
 

My AP mount (and presumably yours) cost untold thousands of dollars (worth it), 

Filters, camera etc. telescope are probably equivalent but likely more. 

APCC costs about 1500 full price(?)

and you want to quibble about $150 for a plate solving solution that makes your pointing and tracking significantly improved?

 This totally mystifies me. 

APCC Pro and pinpoint to me are the biggest no-brainer decision. It's one of the smallest expenses in this whole setup. it's probably less than just the tax we paid for the camera!



On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 6:35 PM Dale Ghent <daleg@...> wrote:

So here's the the main issue I have that has been preventing me from wanting to upgrade from Standard to Pro: I have to buy other software to make APPM work, and APPM is really one of the primary reasons for going to APCC Pro.

ANSVR, Astrometry.Net, ASTAP, ASPS, PlateSolve2... these are all free(*) solvers with various qualities and capabilities. But to use them with APPM, I have to put some other non-free (and now, subscription-based) software in front of them, such as TSX, SGPro or PinPoint. I have -zero- other uses for such software; if I bought (or subscribed) to them, I would be doing so only to be able to use APPM. This really feels like it could be a better arrangement.

I think what people, and certainly myself, would like is for APPM to not have this dependency and for it to be able to plate solve on its own using any (or all!) of the aforementioned solving suites. Let APPM run an ASCOM camera, and devise an internal Interface that would let you make a driver for each of whatever solvers you'd like to support. At that point, the user now has the power to choose which solver they wish to use, wether it be ASTAP or PS2 or whatever else - and do so without the middleware.

The internal interface for plate solvers is what we had to do in NINA because we realized that different folks have their preferences for solvers, sometimes nearing total religious adherence. So if someone popped up asking if they could use some new and previously-unheard of XYZ Solver with the app, all we need to know is how to make XYZ Solver solve an image that we pass to it and how to parse its results through whatever means it makes those results available. Everyone is happy and there's yet another solver listed in the drop-down menu of solvers to choose from.

> On Sep 26, 2020, at 1:04 PM, Ray Gralak <groups3@...> wrote:
>
>> Voyager uses ASTAP natively and it works like a champ. APPM doesn't solve repetitively enough for me to be
>> concerned about it.
>
> I don't even understand what that means?
>
> APPM does not natively plate solve. It uses an external plate solver. It simply reads the RA/Dec and other values from the solver,
> or intermediary app.
>
> For plate-solving I typically use PinPoint and all-sky backup to Astrometry.Net. I've done many thousands of plate solves. Maybe
> even hundreds of thousands. Unless there is a tree, clouds, or something else obscuring the sky, plate solves have been extremely
> reliable at the image scale I typically use (around 1.6 arc-sec/pixel). That said, PinPoint can have problems in areas of the sky
> where there are too many stars in the selected database, typically around the milkyway.
>
> If the image area is smaller, for example because of a longer focal length, it may be more of a challenge.
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of PEMPro
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Long
>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 9:48 AM
>> To: Ray Gralak; main@ap-gto.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>
>> Voyager uses ASTAP natively and it works like a champ. APPM doesn't solve repetitively enough for me to be
>> concerned about it.
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 9:26 AM
>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>
>>> It could be as simple as the fact that APPM is doing a large number of plate solves in a short period of time.
>>
>> I hope that's not true because it might make ASTAP a poor choice for plate solving.
>>
>> -Ray Gralak
>> Author of PEMPro
>> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center):
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-
>> physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0>
>> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;d
>> ata=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0
>> %7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&am
>> p;reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;
>> data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C
>> 0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&a
>> mp;reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of W Hilmo
>>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 8:50 AM
>>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>>
>>> I agree.
>>>
>>> I suspect that it's an ASTAP problem, but something that APPM is doing is exposing it.  It could be as simple as
>> the
>>> fact that APPM is doing a large number of plate solves in a short period of time.  As I mentioned, I've not had time
>>> to do any investigation at all yet.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Gralak
>>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2020 6:52 PM
>>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>>
>>>> I switched to ASTAP for my plate solves with SGP and am seeing what is
>>>> probably the same issue described in the first post of this thread.
>>>
>>> APPM doesn't know which plate solver is in use when SGPro is used for plate solving. APPM operates the same
>>> way for all SGPro plate solvers because APPM uses the SGPro API for plate solving. Since PlateSolve2 doesn't
>>> seem to show the same problem, it seems likely that the problem is with how SGPro handles ASTAP.
>>>
>>> -Ray Gralak
>>> Author of PEMPro
>>> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center):
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-
>> physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0>
>>> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;d
>> ata=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0
>> %7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&am
>> p;reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;
>> data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C
>> 0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&a
>> mp;reserved=0>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf
>>>> Of W Hilmo
>>>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2020 9:29 AM
>>>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>>>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>>>
>>>> I switched to ASTAP for my plate solves with SGP and am seeing what is
>>>> probably the same issue described in the first post of this thread.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>








--
Brian 



Brian Valente


locked Re: #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE #APCC

Ray Gralak
 

I put a screen shot of one of the images loaded in that folder at the link.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Worsel via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 7:17 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE

That's very weird...

See attached ASTAP screenshot

Bryan


locked Re: #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE #APCC

 


My AP mount (and presumably yours) cost untold thousands of dollars (worth it), 

Filters, camera etc. telescope are probably equivalent but likely more. 

APCC costs about 1500 full price(?)

and you want to quibble about $150 for a plate solving solution that makes your pointing and tracking significantly improved?

 This totally mystifies me. 

APCC Pro and pinpoint to me are the biggest no-brainer decision. It's one of the smallest expenses in this whole setup. it's probably less than just the tax we paid for the camera!



On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 6:35 PM Dale Ghent <daleg@...> wrote:

So here's the the main issue I have that has been preventing me from wanting to upgrade from Standard to Pro: I have to buy other software to make APPM work, and APPM is really one of the primary reasons for going to APCC Pro.

ANSVR, Astrometry.Net, ASTAP, ASPS, PlateSolve2... these are all free(*) solvers with various qualities and capabilities. But to use them with APPM, I have to put some other non-free (and now, subscription-based) software in front of them, such as TSX, SGPro or PinPoint. I have -zero- other uses for such software; if I bought (or subscribed) to them, I would be doing so only to be able to use APPM. This really feels like it could be a better arrangement.

I think what people, and certainly myself, would like is for APPM to not have this dependency and for it to be able to plate solve on its own using any (or all!) of the aforementioned solving suites. Let APPM run an ASCOM camera, and devise an internal Interface that would let you make a driver for each of whatever solvers you'd like to support. At that point, the user now has the power to choose which solver they wish to use, wether it be ASTAP or PS2 or whatever else - and do so without the middleware.

The internal interface for plate solvers is what we had to do in NINA because we realized that different folks have their preferences for solvers, sometimes nearing total religious adherence. So if someone popped up asking if they could use some new and previously-unheard of XYZ Solver with the app, all we need to know is how to make XYZ Solver solve an image that we pass to it and how to parse its results through whatever means it makes those results available. Everyone is happy and there's yet another solver listed in the drop-down menu of solvers to choose from.

> On Sep 26, 2020, at 1:04 PM, Ray Gralak <groups3@...> wrote:
>
>> Voyager uses ASTAP natively and it works like a champ. APPM doesn't solve repetitively enough for me to be
>> concerned about it.
>
> I don't even understand what that means?
>
> APPM does not natively plate solve. It uses an external plate solver. It simply reads the RA/Dec and other values from the solver,
> or intermediary app.
>
> For plate-solving I typically use PinPoint and all-sky backup to Astrometry.Net. I've done many thousands of plate solves. Maybe
> even hundreds of thousands. Unless there is a tree, clouds, or something else obscuring the sky, plate solves have been extremely
> reliable at the image scale I typically use (around 1.6 arc-sec/pixel). That said, PinPoint can have problems in areas of the sky
> where there are too many stars in the selected database, typically around the milkyway.
>
> If the image area is smaller, for example because of a longer focal length, it may be more of a challenge.
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of PEMPro
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Long
>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 9:48 AM
>> To: Ray Gralak; main@ap-gto.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>
>> Voyager uses ASTAP natively and it works like a champ. APPM doesn't solve repetitively enough for me to be
>> concerned about it.
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 9:26 AM
>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>
>>> It could be as simple as the fact that APPM is doing a large number of plate solves in a short period of time.
>>
>> I hope that's not true because it might make ASTAP a poor choice for plate solving.
>>
>> -Ray Gralak
>> Author of PEMPro
>> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center):
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-
>> physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0>
>> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;d
>> ata=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0
>> %7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&am
>> p;reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;
>> data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C
>> 0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&a
>> mp;reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of W Hilmo
>>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 8:50 AM
>>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>>
>>> I agree.
>>>
>>> I suspect that it's an ASTAP problem, but something that APPM is doing is exposing it.  It could be as simple as
>> the
>>> fact that APPM is doing a large number of plate solves in a short period of time.  As I mentioned, I've not had time
>>> to do any investigation at all yet.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Gralak
>>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2020 6:52 PM
>>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>>
>>>> I switched to ASTAP for my plate solves with SGP and am seeing what is
>>>> probably the same issue described in the first post of this thread.
>>>
>>> APPM doesn't know which plate solver is in use when SGPro is used for plate solving. APPM operates the same
>>> way for all SGPro plate solvers because APPM uses the SGPro API for plate solving. Since PlateSolve2 doesn't
>>> seem to show the same problem, it seems likely that the problem is with how SGPro handles ASTAP.
>>>
>>> -Ray Gralak
>>> Author of PEMPro
>>> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center):
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro-
>> physics.com%2Fapcc-
>> pro&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa
>> %7C1%7C0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L5NWYJiNctTmuNFXvB37zZINb6CJ57eCgg7MyuWklfw%3D&
>> amp;reserved=0>
>>> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;d
>> ata=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0
>> %7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&am
>> p;reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.siriusimaging.com%2Fapdriver&amp;
>> data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d031ac0f6f64c67c2a908d86238f03c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C
>> 0%7C637367343966191971&amp;sdata=L0AH7Z1UH%2FJv8TKH4hHT4xKWMZHMWDSKLJQbgVhwQsg%3D&a
>> mp;reserved=0>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf
>>>> Of W Hilmo
>>>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2020 9:29 AM
>>>> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
>>>> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] #APCC APCC/APPM blocking issue with AP1100GTOAE
>>>>
>>>> I switched to ASTAP for my plate solves with SGP and am seeing what is
>>>> probably the same issue described in the first post of this thread.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
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Brian 



Brian Valente

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