Date   

Re: Nudge Guiding last night

Konstantin von Poschinger
 

Roland,

is the new Keypad Software available in the meantime?

Konstantin


Konstantin v. Poschinger

Hammerichstr. 5
22605 Hamburg
040/8805747
0171 1983476

Am 22.09.2020 um 22:28 schrieb uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>:

The guide signals are not modified by APCC. Yes, of course MaximDL has to be connected to the driver, so the guide signals go to the mount with proper protocol. Using guiding and custom tracking in APCC works fine. It also works fine when using the simple model created by the keypad.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Konstantin von Poschinger <KPoschinger@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Sep 22, 2020 3:24 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Nudge Guiding last night

Hi Roland,

how do you do that? I have MaximDL connected to the AP driver. The driver do as I sought is connected to APCCC and APCC to the control Box.

Konstantin


Konstantin v. Poschinger

Hammerichstr. 5
22605 Hamburg
040/8805747
0171 1983476

Am 22.09.2020 um 21:30 schrieb uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>:

My MaximDL guide signals does not go thru APCC. MaximDL goes direct to the mount.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Marcelo Figueroa via groups.io <marfig1970@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Sep 22, 2020 2:19 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Nudge Guiding last night

That's fantastic. The other night I was also testing this form of guidance using PHD2 and SGP, although not with such long exposures.
 
When I did it I noticed that in APCC Pro the tracking rate had changed from custom (comet icon) normally used when not using guiding, to sidereal. Is that normal?
 



Re: Nudge Guiding last night

Roland Christen
 

The guide signals are not modified by APCC. Yes, of course MaximDL has to be connected to the driver, so the guide signals go to the mount with proper protocol. Using guiding and custom tracking in APCC works fine. It also works fine when using the simple model created by the keypad.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Konstantin von Poschinger <KPoschinger@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Sep 22, 2020 3:24 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Nudge Guiding last night

Hi Roland,

how do you do that? I have MaximDL connected to the AP driver. The driver do as I sought is connected to APCCC and APCC to the control Box.

Konstantin


Konstantin v. Poschinger

Hammerichstr. 5
22605 Hamburg
040/8805747
0171 1983476

Am 22.09.2020 um 21:30 schrieb uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>:

My MaximDL guide signals does not go thru APCC. MaximDL goes direct to the mount.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Marcelo Figueroa via groups.io <marfig1970@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Sep 22, 2020 2:19 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Nudge Guiding last night

That's fantastic. The other night I was also testing this form of guidance using PHD2 and SGP, although not with such long exposures.
 
When I did it I noticed that in APCC Pro the tracking rate had changed from custom (comet icon) normally used when not using guiding, to sidereal. Is that normal?
 


Re: Olympus Mons with the Mak 10

thefamily90 Phillips
 

Got it!

Jim


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of dvjbaja <jpgleasonid@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 1:56:45 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Olympus Mons with the Mak 10
 
Look in the original post. It's an attachment. 



Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note9, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: thefamily90 Phillips <thefamily90@...>
Date: 9/22/20 10:01 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Olympus Mons with the Mak 10

I didn’t get the picture! Can you please resend?

Jim


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of dvjbaja <jpgleasonid@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 11:36:50 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Olympus Mons with the Mak 10
 
 The telescope was Roland's fabulous 254mm f/14.5 mak cassegrain. Perfect collimation and superb if not borderline perfect optics. Imagine having a 9-inch refractor to look through. 600X? No problemo.     QHY 5-III462 single shot color + 1.8X Tak extender. This is a new back illuminated single shot color camera that is also capable of black and white images at IR850.  Sharpcap used for video capture.  Autostakkert for stacking and sorting the best of 1000 - 2000 frames, Registax for wavelet processing.  So there ya go. Easy peasy.   

-j 

On Tue, Sep 22, 2020 at 6:51 AM Worsel via groups.io <bryancashion=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
That's an outstanding image!!

Can you give us more details...camera, exposure, etc

Thanks for sharing.

Bryan


Re: [ap-ug] Nudge Guiding last night

Roland Christen
 

Yes, just look at the guide graph with guide pulses turned OFF.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Khushrow Machhi via groups.io <kmachhi@...>
To: main@ap-ug.groups.io
Cc: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Sep 22, 2020 3:09 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-ug] Nudge Guiding last night

Is there a way to evaluate how well the mount is tracking when unguided?  While guiding this data is available on the screen or the PHD2 log files. I was asking this question of my observatory mate who is doing unguided imaging with his Mach2. 

Khushrow

On Sep 22, 2020, at 10:34 AM, Roland Christen via groups.io <chris1011@...> wrote:


Hi Astronuts,

I posted my guiding results from a 5 hour imaging session last night on Astrobin:
https://www.astrobin.com/ge4lnv/

I wanted to show how an Absolute Encoder Mount can enhance the guide accuracy and thereby improve the image resolution when using medium to long focal length telescopes.

There are always discussions on the various newsgroups that question whether an encoder mount is really necessary if you're going to guide anyway. The idea doesn't make sense until you realize that the encoders provide the mount axes with a very precise position according to the input commands of the servo controller. It means that if you can detect sub-arc sec errors in the position of the guide star, you can correct for them at a very precise level. You can also take 90% of the guide burden away for really long exposures by modeling, and thus driving both axes at a custom rate according to the model.

The encoder loop is not only accurate but very linear down to the sub-arc sec level. For example, a non-encoder mount can have non-linear response and discontinuity in Dec during direction reversals, even if the gears are belt driven. That can cause delays and even oscillations around the zero point. All that goes away with encoder control.

Last night was not especially great seeing, Clear Sky Clock rated it as a 3 out of 5, but it was good enough for the nudge guiding plus model tracking to track down to the 0.2 arc sec Pk level. Without the model and just normal full guiding (2 - 3 sec guide exposure) the system would be guiding at around 0.5 arc sec Pk (which isn't shabby).

Rolando


Re: Nudge Guiding last night

Konstantin von Poschinger
 

Hi Roland,

how do you do that? I have MaximDL connected to the AP driver. The driver do as I sought is connected to APCCC and APCC to the control Box.

Konstantin


Konstantin v. Poschinger

Hammerichstr. 5
22605 Hamburg
040/8805747
0171 1983476

Am 22.09.2020 um 21:30 schrieb uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...>:

My MaximDL guide signals does not go thru APCC. MaximDL goes direct to the mount.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Marcelo Figueroa via groups.io <marfig1970@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Sep 22, 2020 2:19 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Nudge Guiding last night

That's fantastic. The other night I was also testing this form of guidance using PHD2 and SGP, although not with such long exposures.
 
When I did it I noticed that in APCC Pro the tracking rate had changed from custom (comet icon) normally used when not using guiding, to sidereal. Is that normal?
 


Re: Nudge Guiding last night

Roland Christen
 

You can judge seeing by doing a few minutes of tracking and just examine the guide star tracking in the guide graph with guide pulses turned OFF.

 That's it in a nutshell.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Hambrick via groups.io <mike.hambrick@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Sep 22, 2020 2:45 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Nudge Guiding last night

Hi Roland

You refer to the seeing as rated by Clear Sky Clock. Is that a free web site  or a subscription service ?

Do you have any techniques that you use yourself to estimate what the seeing is ? I would love to get a better explanation of the how the seeing ratings are defined.


Best Regards

Michael Hambrick
ARLANXEO
TSR Global Manufacturing Support
PO Box 2000
Orange, TX 77631-2000
Phone: +1 (409) 882-2799
email: mike.hambrick@...


Re: [ap-ug] Nudge Guiding last night

Khushrow Machhi
 

Is there a way to evaluate how well the mount is tracking when unguided?  While guiding this data is available on the screen or the PHD2 log files. I was asking this question of my observatory mate who is doing unguided imaging with his Mach2. 

Khushrow

On Sep 22, 2020, at 10:34 AM, Roland Christen via groups.io <chris1011@...> wrote:


Hi Astronuts,

I posted my guiding results from a 5 hour imaging session last night on Astrobin:
https://www.astrobin.com/ge4lnv/

I wanted to show how an Absolute Encoder Mount can enhance the guide accuracy and thereby improve the image resolution when using medium to long focal length telescopes.

There are always discussions on the various newsgroups that question whether an encoder mount is really necessary if you're going to guide anyway. The idea doesn't make sense until you realize that the encoders provide the mount axes with a very precise position according to the input commands of the servo controller. It means that if you can detect sub-arc sec errors in the position of the guide star, you can correct for them at a very precise level. You can also take 90% of the guide burden away for really long exposures by modeling, and thus driving both axes at a custom rate according to the model.

The encoder loop is not only accurate but very linear down to the sub-arc sec level. For example, a non-encoder mount can have non-linear response and discontinuity in Dec during direction reversals, even if the gears are belt driven. That can cause delays and even oscillations around the zero point. All that goes away with encoder control.

Last night was not especially great seeing, Clear Sky Clock rated it as a 3 out of 5, but it was good enough for the nudge guiding plus model tracking to track down to the 0.2 arc sec Pk level. Without the model and just normal full guiding (2 - 3 sec guide exposure) the system would be guiding at around 0.5 arc sec Pk (which isn't shabby).

Rolando


Re: Nudge Guiding last night

Seb@stro
 

Do you have any techniques that you use yourself to estimate what the seeing is ? I would love to get a better explanation of the how the seeing ratings are defined. 
+1 on this one...

Sébastien


Re: Nudge Guiding last night

Michael Hambrick <mike.hambrick@...>
 

Hi Roland

You refer to the seeing as rated by Clear Sky Clock. Is that a free web site  or a subscription service ?

Do you have any techniques that you use yourself to estimate what the seeing is ? I would love to get a better explanation of the how the seeing ratings are defined.


Best Regards

Michael Hambrick
ARLANXEO
TSR Global Manufacturing Support
PO Box 2000
Orange, TX 77631-2000
Phone: +1 (409) 882-2799
email: mike.hambrick@...


Re: Nudge Guiding last night

Roland Christen
 

My MaximDL guide signals does not go thru APCC. MaximDL goes direct to the mount.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Marcelo Figueroa via groups.io <marfig1970@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Sep 22, 2020 2:19 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Nudge Guiding last night

That's fantastic. The other night I was also testing this form of guidance using PHD2 and SGP, although not with such long exposures.
 
When I did it I noticed that in APCC Pro the tracking rate had changed from custom (comet icon) normally used when not using guiding, to sidereal. Is that normal?
 


Re: Nudge Guiding last night

Roland Christen
 

PHD2 can be set up the same way. Very low Min Move. Very low aggression. I like to use 10 sec guide exposure in Maxim in order to minimize random sky motions. Set the delay between guide exposures to 5000 msec (5 sec) or even more if the seeing is very steady. MaximDL has good algorithm for finding the centroid even if the guide star is saturated, as it was in my case. I'm not sure if PHD2 can do that, so it would have to pick a fainter star.

One thing to be careful about is good cable management. You cannot have cables dragging or you will get sudden jumps that take longer to settle because of the slow guide cadence. I would do this type of guiding only for longish exposures, such as 20 min and longer for narrowband deep sky. If you dither, it will take longer to settle also. Make sure that the main camera exposure length doesn't saturate the object that you are recording. In my case the 1hr exposure did not saturate the tiny squiggles inside the Bubble nebula. It would very much saturate the core of a typical galaxy with a wideband LRGB filter set.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Benjamin <tonybenjamin@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Sep 22, 2020 1:55 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Nudge Guiding last night

You are using Maxim…how would you set this up in PHD2? Just very low aggression and greater than 5 sec exposure time?
 
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io
Sent: September 22, 2020 10:34 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io; main@ap-ug.groups.io
Subject: [ap-gto] Nudge Guiding last night
 
Hi Astronuts,
 
I posted my guiding results from a 5 hour imaging session last night on Astrobin:
 
I wanted to show how an Absolute Encoder Mount can enhance the guide accuracy and thereby improve the image resolution when using medium to long focal length telescopes.
 
There are always discussions on the various newsgroups that question whether an encoder mount is really necessary if you're going to guide anyway. The idea doesn't make sense until you realize that the encoders provide the mount axes with a very precise position according to the input commands of the servo controller. It means that if you can detect sub-arc sec errors in the position of the guide star, you can correct for them at a very precise level. You can also take 90% of the guide burden away for really long exposures by modeling, and thus driving both axes at a custom rate according to the model.
 
The encoder loop is not only accurate but very linear down to the sub-arc sec level. For example, a non-encoder mount can have non-linear response and discontinuity in Dec during direction reversals, even if the gears are belt driven. That can cause delays and even oscillations around the zero point. All that goes away with encoder control.
 
Last night was not especially great seeing, Clear Sky Clock rated it as a 3 out of 5, but it was good enough for the nudge guiding plus model tracking to track down to the 0.2 arc sec Pk level. Without the model and just normal full guiding (2 - 3 sec guide exposure) the system would be guiding at around 0.5 arc sec Pk (which isn't shabby).
 
Rolando


Re: Nudge Guiding last night

Marcelo Figueroa
 

That's fantastic. The other night I was also testing this form of guidance using PHD2 and SGP, although not with such long exposures.
 
When I did it I noticed that in APCC Pro the tracking rate had changed from custom (comet icon) normally used when not using guiding, to sidereal. Is that normal?
 


Re: Nudge Guiding last night

Tony Benjamin
 

You are using Maxim…how would you set this up in PHD2? Just very low aggression and greater than 5 sec exposure time?

 

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io
Sent: September 22, 2020 10:34 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io; main@ap-ug.groups.io
Subject: [ap-gto] Nudge Guiding last night

 

Hi Astronuts,

 

I posted my guiding results from a 5 hour imaging session last night on Astrobin:

 

I wanted to show how an Absolute Encoder Mount can enhance the guide accuracy and thereby improve the image resolution when using medium to long focal length telescopes.

 

There are always discussions on the various newsgroups that question whether an encoder mount is really necessary if you're going to guide anyway. The idea doesn't make sense until you realize that the encoders provide the mount axes with a very precise position according to the input commands of the servo controller. It means that if you can detect sub-arc sec errors in the position of the guide star, you can correct for them at a very precise level. You can also take 90% of the guide burden away for really long exposures by modeling, and thus driving both axes at a custom rate according to the model.

 

The encoder loop is not only accurate but very linear down to the sub-arc sec level. For example, a non-encoder mount can have non-linear response and discontinuity in Dec during direction reversals, even if the gears are belt driven. That can cause delays and even oscillations around the zero point. All that goes away with encoder control.

 

Last night was not especially great seeing, Clear Sky Clock rated it as a 3 out of 5, but it was good enough for the nudge guiding plus model tracking to track down to the 0.2 arc sec Pk level. Without the model and just normal full guiding (2 - 3 sec guide exposure) the system would be guiding at around 0.5 arc sec Pk (which isn't shabby).

 

Rolando


Re: Olympus Mons with the Mak 10

dvjbaja
 

Look in the original post. It's an attachment. 



Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note9, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: thefamily90 Phillips <thefamily90@...>
Date: 9/22/20 10:01 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Olympus Mons with the Mak 10

I didn’t get the picture! Can you please resend?

Jim


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of dvjbaja <jpgleasonid@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 11:36:50 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Olympus Mons with the Mak 10
 
 The telescope was Roland's fabulous 254mm f/14.5 mak cassegrain. Perfect collimation and superb if not borderline perfect optics. Imagine having a 9-inch refractor to look through. 600X? No problemo.     QHY 5-III462 single shot color + 1.8X Tak extender. This is a new back illuminated single shot color camera that is also capable of black and white images at IR850.  Sharpcap used for video capture.  Autostakkert for stacking and sorting the best of 1000 - 2000 frames, Registax for wavelet processing.  So there ya go. Easy peasy.   

-j 

On Tue, Sep 22, 2020 at 6:51 AM Worsel via groups.io <bryancashion=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
That's an outstanding image!!

Can you give us more details...camera, exposure, etc

Thanks for sharing.

Bryan


Nudge Guiding last night

Roland Christen
 

Hi Astronuts,

I posted my guiding results from a 5 hour imaging session last night on Astrobin:
https://www.astrobin.com/ge4lnv/

I wanted to show how an Absolute Encoder Mount can enhance the guide accuracy and thereby improve the image resolution when using medium to long focal length telescopes.

There are always discussions on the various newsgroups that question whether an encoder mount is really necessary if you're going to guide anyway. The idea doesn't make sense until you realize that the encoders provide the mount axes with a very precise position according to the input commands of the servo controller. It means that if you can detect sub-arc sec errors in the position of the guide star, you can correct for them at a very precise level. You can also take 90% of the guide burden away for really long exposures by modeling, and thus driving both axes at a custom rate according to the model.

The encoder loop is not only accurate but very linear down to the sub-arc sec level. For example, a non-encoder mount can have non-linear response and discontinuity in Dec during direction reversals, even if the gears are belt driven. That can cause delays and even oscillations around the zero point. All that goes away with encoder control.

Last night was not especially great seeing, Clear Sky Clock rated it as a 3 out of 5, but it was good enough for the nudge guiding plus model tracking to track down to the 0.2 arc sec Pk level. Without the model and just normal full guiding (2 - 3 sec guide exposure) the system would be guiding at around 0.5 arc sec Pk (which isn't shabby).

Rolando


Re: Olympus Mons with the Mak 10

thefamily90 Phillips
 

I didn’t get the picture! Can you please resend?

Jim


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of dvjbaja <jpgleasonid@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 11:36:50 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Olympus Mons with the Mak 10
 
 The telescope was Roland's fabulous 254mm f/14.5 mak cassegrain. Perfect collimation and superb if not borderline perfect optics. Imagine having a 9-inch refractor to look through. 600X? No problemo.     QHY 5-III462 single shot color + 1.8X Tak extender. This is a new back illuminated single shot color camera that is also capable of black and white images at IR850.  Sharpcap used for video capture.  Autostakkert for stacking and sorting the best of 1000 - 2000 frames, Registax for wavelet processing.  So there ya go. Easy peasy.   

-j 

On Tue, Sep 22, 2020 at 6:51 AM Worsel via groups.io <bryancashion=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
That's an outstanding image!!

Can you give us more details...camera, exposure, etc

Thanks for sharing.

Bryan


Re: difference between APCC-pro and ST ?

christian viladrich
 

Thanks Marcello !

Christian

Le 21/09/2020 à 22:49, Marcelo Figueroa via groups.io a écrit :
Yes, you are right. As far as I know that's the principal difference.


Re: Olympus Mons with the Mak 10

dvjbaja
 

 The telescope was Roland's fabulous 254mm f/14.5 mak cassegrain. Perfect collimation and superb if not borderline perfect optics. Imagine having a 9-inch refractor to look through. 600X? No problemo.     QHY 5-III462 single shot color + 1.8X Tak extender. This is a new back illuminated single shot color camera that is also capable of black and white images at IR850.  Sharpcap used for video capture.  Autostakkert for stacking and sorting the best of 1000 - 2000 frames, Registax for wavelet processing.  So there ya go. Easy peasy.   

-j 

On Tue, Sep 22, 2020 at 6:51 AM Worsel via groups.io <bryancashion=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
That's an outstanding image!!

Can you give us more details...camera, exposure, etc

Thanks for sharing.

Bryan


Re: Olympus Mons with the Mak 10

Worsel
 

That's an outstanding image!!

Can you give us more details...camera, exposure, etc

Thanks for sharing.

Bryan


Re: Problem with PEMPRO polar alignment

Worsel
 

I would agree with Brian V.  If you have and are familiar with Maxim, that would be the easiest route.

Bryan

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