Date   

Re: Does PEMPRO really luanch APCC ?

Ray Gralak
 

Joe,

PEMPro does not directly start APCC. However, PEMPro launches the AP V2 driver, which may start APCC if the driver is configured to do so. If you are running APCC Pro, you should make sure to turn off tracking rate modeling.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 10:07 AM
To: ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: [ap-gto] Does PEMPRO really luanch APCC ?

Hi Ray,

Just curious about this. While doing my polar alignment runs the other night, I shut down any apps that might
have been running, including APCC. The idea was to eliminate any other app that might be causing a reversal in
the recent direction instructions during drift alignment.

When I started PEMPRO-V3, I got the brief pop up that APCC was being started, and yet the only app that
was on the screen, or newly placed in the task bar, was the old and familiar AP driver control program. It popped
onto the screen when I clicked its task bar icon – but no sign of APCC’s control window anywhere. It seemd like a
momentary run lasting only a few seconds.

Was that a “redundant program message” from APCC which usually starts the driver control app? Or, is APCC
actually running in the background, but hidden from any user view while PEMPRO is working?

Not a problem, but an oddity.
Joe Z.


Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Roland Christen
 

Actually the heat wafting is happening in the baffle tube due to heat in the primary mirror. It can be quite bad. Happens in large SCTs also (C11, C14).

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Sun, Sep 13, 2020 12:08 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Hi Joe,

>    Not worried by “tube currents” – it is a 14.5” truss rather than a solid tube.

I have an 18" truss tube with cooling fans, so I can say that you can have tube currents even with a truss tube. I found that heat can waft off of the primary, secondary, and even the ground through a nylon cover over the truss tubes. :-)

That said, I will confirm proper operation, and fix if needed, by doing a polar alignment test with the latest build of PEMPro (v3.00.33) when the skies clear up here in Northern California.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 9:56 AM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
>
> Hi Ray,
>
>    Not worried by “tube currents” – it is a 14.5” truss rather than a solid tube.
> A little reluctant to experiment with greatly offsetting the polar axis, after spending around 6 hours getting it close
> to (IIRC) around a 40 arc second drift.
> Your warning about careful attention to step 2 & 3 – I assume you mean getting the mouse pointer dead centered
> on the star trail ends and the sampled star in the three test images. I used your “magnifying glass curser to center
> on the three samples, then moved the curser grid with the keyboard direction keys, for ultimate precision. to get
> the curser dead center on the star or trail. That was a GREAT idea, as so very many of yours are,  in recent
> versions of PemPro.
>
>    The plan is to do an East side run, with the camera oriented as it was, and always is when I set up for a
> session. I’ll also pick a spot further away  from the prime meridian, since I was already crowding your default 5
> degree proximity for the tracking starting position’s initial user slew.
>
>    Finally, IIRC you once said that PEC being on or off  didn’t matter for the polar alignment process, as PEMPRO
> already compensates for it, during the analysis.  I always leave it turned OFF when starting PEMPRO – especially
> now, since this CP4 unit is under its first use since repair two years ago, so there is no valid PEC curve recorded
> in it.
>
>    Not to worry – PEMPRO is and always was,  a great tool, fun to use, provides a wealth of detail about the scope
> and controller. The program and I just have to come to terms on our sense of adjustment directions :-)
>
> Joe Z.
>
> From: Ray Gralak
> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 11:23 AM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
>
> Hi Joe,
>
> If you want to confirm your findings, and that you aren't getting fooled by something else like tube currents, try
> purposely offsetting the polar alignment by a large amount in both Alt and Az. Make sure you accurately perform
> steps 2 and 3, otherwise you might see the behavior you saw.
>
> I would try it myself with the latest version but have been socked in by the marine layer and smoke from fires. That
> said, I used PEMPro to tweak polar alignment just a couple weeks ago and the directions were not reversed for
> me.
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of PEMPro
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
> > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 5:56 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
> >
> > Yes Ray.
> >
> >    We’re on the same page, and I’ve got my bearings.
> > It is a standard  “Push-Pull” system. Screwing-in the right side knob  (on the west side on an AP-1200),  where
> the
> > AZ adjuster is located on the AP-1200 North side of the pier, pushes  the mount’s base plate around,  away
> from
> > the pier-fixed  center post – and turns the entire mount counter-clockwise.
> >
> >    I’ve done it lots of times, and every time I do, I try to envisage what each turn of a knob results in.
> >
> > Joe.
> >
> > From: Ray Gralak
> > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 7:04 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
> >
> > Hi Joe,
> >
> > Just to be sure you are adjusting the correct knobs, for a 1200GTO, to rotate the mount clockwise, you tighten
> the
> > knob facing to the East. To rotate the mount counter-clockwise, you tighten the knob facing to the West. After
> each
> > adjustment, you should tighten all mount knobs so that you are measuring the drift in the state that the mount
> will
> > be in when you will be using it.
> >
> > -Ray Gralak
> > Author of PEMPro
> > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physicscom/apcc-pro
> > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
> > > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 3:10 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
> > >
> > > Hi Ray,
> > >
> > >    It was a very long night, so I must have redone PEMPRO about 5 or 6 times.  I could have made the same
> > > mistake in the lead up to the drift graph,  every time, but I doubt it I’m not new to PEMPRO use, but it is
> > infrequent.
> > > Luckily, the instructions are simple.
> > >
> > >    As Tom mentioned earlier, after a few tries following screen hints, it was obvious that doing so made the
> drift
> > > error progressively worse, so I reversed the logic, and turned the AZ “knobs” to rotate the mount towards the
> > other
> > > direction. This made it settle down, and using the reverse direction was then consistently better.
> > > By reversal, I mean that the entire run was giving contrary directions, as did the reruns after that. It wasn’t a
> logic
> > > reversal DURING a run.
> > >
> > >    At each correction, I looked down at the mount baseplate, and considered which knob would “push it
> towards
> > or
> > > away from the AZ post” in the direction for the mount to rotate, (horizontally in AZ), per the given instruction. I
> still
> > > “suspect” that this reversal of procedure may have to do with choosing one side of the meridian, while the
> > camera
> > > is either straight up, or inverted. But, that should have been determined automatically,  during the calibration
> > steps
> > > of clicking on the star trail, and the three star image targets.
> > >
> > >    PEMPRO worked fine for me a couple of years ago, using an earlier revision, but has also happened the
> weird
> > > way, at other times in the past. I have used several versions over more than a decade. I’ll continue to
> investigate
> > > its problem, or possibly mine. Perhaps I will discover a unique set of conditions that causes the logic  reversal.
> > >
> > >    Please stay safe out there Ray. We need you healthy at all times.
> > > Best regards,
> > > Joe Z.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Ray Gralak
> > > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 4:14 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
> > >
> > > Hi Joe,
> > >
> > > I have used PEMPro a number of times in the last few months on my 1100AE and 1200 mounts, and haven't
> > seen
> > > any direction reversals, but I can double check the next year (lol) that my California skies are clear enough.
> > > Assuming you went through the calibration steps correctly, is it possible you could have adjusted the wrong
> > > Azimuth knob?
> > >
> > > Also, being above or below the pole will not affect the Az direction at all.
> > >
> > > >    I also had problems with connecting the camera to the software (CCDSOFT) – kept getting the
> “Unavailable
> > > > ACTIVEX module” error, unless I run both the camera software (CCDSOFT) and PEMPRO-V3, “as ADMIN”.
> > The
> > > > website claims this is only necessary to do once, to register CCDSOFT’s Activex module – but that does
> NOT
> > > > seem to be the case. It has to be started  in Admin mode (before) starting PEMPRO,  every time.
> > >
> > > CCDSoft (and any other ActiveX control) should register itself when it is installed, which it doesn't. If it can't
> > register
> > > itself even when running as Administrator, then maybe there is reason. You might try changing the
> compatibility
> > > mode of CCDSoft to Windows 7.
> > >
> > > -Ray Gralak
> > > Author of PEMPro
> > > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physicscom/apcc-pro
> > > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
> > > > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 12:19 PM
> > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro..Suggestions for my AP600e?
> > > >
> > > > Hi Tom,
> > > >
> > > >    Funny that you should mention the odd “adjustment direction” misbehaviour running PEMPRO.
> > > >
> > > >    Like you, I have years of familiarity with PEMPRO, and it is actually fun to use. However, I spent hours
> last
> > > > night,  trying to get it to behave with my AP-1200/CP4. I quickly realized that I should do the opposite,  to the
> > > > direction it was asking me to adjust the AZ. Every time it said Clockwise rotation, I rotated the AZ COUNTER
> > > > clockwise, and that worked fine. Otherwise, as in your experience, following its suggestion, the gap just
> > widened
> > > > with every suggested direction adjustment.
> > > >
> > > >    I think the initial setup calibration  pointing to either your East side or West of the meridian, should
> > > automatically
> > > > determine if the camera ‘s vertical direction, Mine was upside down, during the run, pointing to  West of the
> > PM.
> > > > Next time out, I will rerun PEMPRO, but with the scope pointing to the East side of the PM, and see if the
> > > direction
> > > > to turn then becomes correct. As I recall, the older versions had “hockey sticks” on the drift graph, for us to
> help
> > > > specify the camera orientation. Now it is supposed to be automatic.
> > > >
> > > >    Ray, is it possible that without doing the DEC adjustment, the scope axis is pointing below or above
> Polaris,
> > > and
> > > > this makes it offer the contrary direction suggestions?
> > > >
> > > >    I also had problems with connecting the camera to the software (CCDSOFT) – kept getting the
> “Unavailable
> > > > ACTIVEX module” error, unless I run both the camera software (CCDSOFT) and PEMPRO-V3, “as ADMIN”.
> > The
> > > > website claims this is only necessary to do once, to register CCDSOFT’s Activex module – but that does
> NOT
> > > > seem to be the case. It has to be started  in Admin mode (before) starting PEMPRO,  every time.
> > > >
> > > >    It is a great program, but seems to have some “direction prompting” quirks, as we have both witnessed,
> and
> > > > which I will investigate further to double check my observations.
> > > >
> > > > Joe Z.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Tom Blahovici
> > > > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 2:08 PM
> > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > Subject: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > I am using an AP600e with a CP4 controller and am attempting to polar align with PemPro.
> > > >
> > > > I am quite familiar with the software. That is not an issue. However, how to use it properly is obviously not
> > > > apparent in my case.  I have spend at least 2 hours trying to get the polar alignment even within 1 arc
> minute.
> > > > I did the first alignment last week, and it seemed I was within 1 minute  I checked it yesterday, and it was a
> > > degree
> > > > off. I kept trying to adjust both azimuth and altitude, but the trend lines were never stable seeing to go all
> over
> > the
> > > > place.
> > > > It would show a line being off by 6 minutes and I would adjust the mount in the right direction only to find it
> was
> > > > even higher.  Not only that, when I did get it close, the trend line would be fine for the first 3 minutes only to
> > then
> > > > start slanting again.
> > > > It should not be this unstable.
> > > > A bit about the mount: It is mounted on a 10 inch diameter pier on top of a solid 3' x 3' concrete block that is
> 6
> > > feet
> > > > long buried in the ground. It has been there for 5 years or so. There is no flexing on the mounting at all.
> Rock
> > > > solid.  Scope is an FSQ106 with Moonlight nightcrawler with screw in adapters.  The drive has a very
> smooth 3
> > > arc
> > > > second peak to peak tracking.  With PEM, +-2.8.
> > > > I am using APCC standard and the pointing has been calibrated.
> > > > Any hints please?
> > > > Thanks, Tom
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>




Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Cheng-Yang Tan
 

Hi Rolando
   For the east or western horizon for altitude alignment, I assume that you mean that the location where scope should be pointing should be close to the equator (point A) and not just directly up from West in the image below (point B)? 

Inline image



cytan

On Saturday, September 12, 2020, 01:45:07 PM CDT, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> wrote:


Altitude Alignment:
The second alignment is done pointing toward the eastern horizon. I like to be somewhere above 25 degrees altitude above the horizon. Here again you want to zero out the declination drift but this time by adjusting the altitude axis. If you don't know which way to turn the altitude knob, start your mount out with the axis pointing way below the pole (many many degrees) and watch the drift in Dec. It will be a very fast drift, so start raising the axis slowly and watch the drift decrease. Now you know which direction to turn the knob versus the direction of the drift. Nifty,eh? Eventually you will reach a point where the Dec drift has bottomed out and maybe even reversed. Then just go back a bit and move the altitude adjuster by smaller amounts. It is not absolutely necessary to reduce the Dec drift to zero, but a good 1 arc sec per 5 minutes is close enough for all intents and purposes. Again ignore any RA drift during this procedure. And do not touch the azimuth adjustment.




Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Ray Gralak
 

Hi Joe,

Not worried by “tube currents” – it is a 14.5” truss rather than a solid tube.
I have an 18" truss tube with cooling fans, so I can say that you can have tube currents even with a truss tube. I found that heat can waft off of the primary, secondary, and even the ground through a nylon cover over the truss tubes. :-)

That said, I will confirm proper operation, and fix if needed, by doing a polar alignment test with the latest build of PEMPro (v3.00.33) when the skies clear up here in Northern California.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 9:56 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Hi Ray,

Not worried by “tube currents” – it is a 14.5” truss rather than a solid tube.
A little reluctant to experiment with greatly offsetting the polar axis, after spending around 6 hours getting it close
to (IIRC) around a 40 arc second drift.
Your warning about careful attention to step 2 & 3 – I assume you mean getting the mouse pointer dead centered
on the star trail ends and the sampled star in the three test images. I used your “magnifying glass curser to center
on the three samples, then moved the curser grid with the keyboard direction keys, for ultimate precision. to get
the curser dead center on the star or trail. That was a GREAT idea, as so very many of yours are, in recent
versions of PemPro.

The plan is to do an East side run, with the camera oriented as it was, and always is when I set up for a
session. I’ll also pick a spot further away from the prime meridian, since I was already crowding your default 5
degree proximity for the tracking starting position’s initial user slew.

Finally, IIRC you once said that PEC being on or off didn’t matter for the polar alignment process, as PEMPRO
already compensates for it, during the analysis. I always leave it turned OFF when starting PEMPRO – especially
now, since this CP4 unit is under its first use since repair two years ago, so there is no valid PEC curve recorded
in it.

Not to worry – PEMPRO is and always was, a great tool, fun to use, provides a wealth of detail about the scope
and controller. The program and I just have to come to terms on our sense of adjustment directions :-)

Joe Z.

From: Ray Gralak
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 11:23 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Hi Joe,

If you want to confirm your findings, and that you aren't getting fooled by something else like tube currents, try
purposely offsetting the polar alignment by a large amount in both Alt and Az. Make sure you accurately perform
steps 2 and 3, otherwise you might see the behavior you saw.

I would try it myself with the latest version but have been socked in by the marine layer and smoke from fires. That
said, I used PEMPro to tweak polar alignment just a couple weeks ago and the directions were not reversed for
me.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 5:56 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Yes Ray.

We’re on the same page, and I’ve got my bearings.
It is a standard “Push-Pull” system. Screwing-in the right side knob (on the west side on an AP-1200), where
the
AZ adjuster is located on the AP-1200 North side of the pier, pushes the mount’s base plate around, away
from
the pier-fixed center post – and turns the entire mount counter-clockwise.

I’ve done it lots of times, and every time I do, I try to envisage what each turn of a knob results in.

Joe.

From: Ray Gralak
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 7:04 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Hi Joe,

Just to be sure you are adjusting the correct knobs, for a 1200GTO, to rotate the mount clockwise, you tighten
the
knob facing to the East. To rotate the mount counter-clockwise, you tighten the knob facing to the West. After
each
adjustment, you should tighten all mount knobs so that you are measuring the drift in the state that the mount
will
be in when you will be using it.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physicscom/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 3:10 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Hi Ray,

It was a very long night, so I must have redone PEMPRO about 5 or 6 times. I could have made the same
mistake in the lead up to the drift graph, every time, but I doubt it I’m not new to PEMPRO use, but it is
infrequent.
Luckily, the instructions are simple.

As Tom mentioned earlier, after a few tries following screen hints, it was obvious that doing so made the
drift
error progressively worse, so I reversed the logic, and turned the AZ “knobs” to rotate the mount towards the
other
direction. This made it settle down, and using the reverse direction was then consistently better.
By reversal, I mean that the entire run was giving contrary directions, as did the reruns after that. It wasn’t a
logic
reversal DURING a run.

At each correction, I looked down at the mount baseplate, and considered which knob would “push it
towards
or
away from the AZ post” in the direction for the mount to rotate, (horizontally in AZ), per the given instruction. I
still
“suspect” that this reversal of procedure may have to do with choosing one side of the meridian, while the
camera
is either straight up, or inverted. But, that should have been determined automatically, during the calibration
steps
of clicking on the star trail, and the three star image targets.

PEMPRO worked fine for me a couple of years ago, using an earlier revision, but has also happened the
weird
way, at other times in the past. I have used several versions over more than a decade. I’ll continue to
investigate
its problem, or possibly mine. Perhaps I will discover a unique set of conditions that causes the logic reversal.

Please stay safe out there Ray. We need you healthy at all times.
Best regards,
Joe Z.



From: Ray Gralak
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Hi Joe,

I have used PEMPro a number of times in the last few months on my 1100AE and 1200 mounts, and haven't
seen
any direction reversals, but I can double check the next year (lol) that my California skies are clear enough.
Assuming you went through the calibration steps correctly, is it possible you could have adjusted the wrong
Azimuth knob?

Also, being above or below the pole will not affect the Az direction at all.

I also had problems with connecting the camera to the software (CCDSOFT) – kept getting the
“Unavailable
ACTIVEX module” error, unless I run both the camera software (CCDSOFT) and PEMPRO-V3, “as ADMIN”.
The
website claims this is only necessary to do once, to register CCDSOFT’s Activex module – but that does
NOT
seem to be the case. It has to be started in Admin mode (before) starting PEMPRO, every time.
CCDSoft (and any other ActiveX control) should register itself when it is installed, which it doesn't. If it can't
register
itself even when running as Administrator, then maybe there is reason. You might try changing the
compatibility
mode of CCDSoft to Windows 7.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physicscom/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 12:19 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro..Suggestions for my AP600e?

Hi Tom,

Funny that you should mention the odd “adjustment direction” misbehaviour running PEMPRO.

Like you, I have years of familiarity with PEMPRO, and it is actually fun to use. However, I spent hours
last
night, trying to get it to behave with my AP-1200/CP4. I quickly realized that I should do the opposite, to the
direction it was asking me to adjust the AZ. Every time it said Clockwise rotation, I rotated the AZ COUNTER
clockwise, and that worked fine. Otherwise, as in your experience, following its suggestion, the gap just
widened
with every suggested direction adjustment.

I think the initial setup calibration pointing to either your East side or West of the meridian, should
automatically
determine if the camera ‘s vertical direction, Mine was upside down, during the run, pointing to West of the
PM.
Next time out, I will rerun PEMPRO, but with the scope pointing to the East side of the PM, and see if the
direction
to turn then becomes correct. As I recall, the older versions had “hockey sticks” on the drift graph, for us to
help
specify the camera orientation. Now it is supposed to be automatic.

Ray, is it possible that without doing the DEC adjustment, the scope axis is pointing below or above
Polaris,
and
this makes it offer the contrary direction suggestions?

I also had problems with connecting the camera to the software (CCDSOFT) – kept getting the
“Unavailable
ACTIVEX module” error, unless I run both the camera software (CCDSOFT) and PEMPRO-V3, “as ADMIN”.
The
website claims this is only necessary to do once, to register CCDSOFT’s Activex module – but that does
NOT
seem to be the case. It has to be started in Admin mode (before) starting PEMPRO, every time.

It is a great program, but seems to have some “direction prompting” quirks, as we have both witnessed,
and
which I will investigate further to double check my observations.

Joe Z.


From: Tom Blahovici
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 2:08 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?


Hi,
I am using an AP600e with a CP4 controller and am attempting to polar align with PemPro.

I am quite familiar with the software. That is not an issue. However, how to use it properly is obviously not
apparent in my case. I have spend at least 2 hours trying to get the polar alignment even within 1 arc
minute.
I did the first alignment last week, and it seemed I was within 1 minute I checked it yesterday, and it was a
degree
off. I kept trying to adjust both azimuth and altitude, but the trend lines were never stable seeing to go all
over
the
place.
It would show a line being off by 6 minutes and I would adjust the mount in the right direction only to find it
was
even higher. Not only that, when I did get it close, the trend line would be fine for the first 3 minutes only to
then
start slanting again.
It should not be this unstable.
A bit about the mount: It is mounted on a 10 inch diameter pier on top of a solid 3' x 3' concrete block that is
6
feet
long buried in the ground. It has been there for 5 years or so. There is no flexing on the mounting at all.
Rock
solid. Scope is an FSQ106 with Moonlight nightcrawler with screw in adapters. The drive has a very
smooth 3
arc
second peak to peak tracking. With PEM, +-2.8.
I am using APCC standard and the pointing has been calibrated.
Any hints please?
Thanks, Tom













Does PEMPRO really luanch APCC ?

Joe Zeglinski
 

Hi Ray,
 
    Just curious about this. While doing my polar alignment runs the other night, I shut down any apps that might have been running, including APCC. The idea was to eliminate any other app that might be causing  a reversal in the recent direction instructions during drift alignment.
 
    When I started PEMPRO-V3,  I got the brief  pop up that APCC was being started, and yet the only app that was on the screen, or newly placed in the task bar, was the old and familiar AP driver control program. It popped onto the screen when I clicked its task bar icon – but no sign of APCC’s control window anywhere. It seemd like a momentary run lasting only a few seconds.
 
    Was that a “redundant program message” from APCC which usually starts  the driver control app? Or, is APCC actually running in the background, but hidden from any user view while PEMPRO is working?
 
    Not a problem, but an oddity.
Joe Z.


Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Joe Zeglinski
 

Hi Ray,
 
    Not worried by “tube currents” – it is a 14.5” truss rather than a solid tube.
A little reluctant to experiment with greatly offsetting the polar axis, after spending around 6 hours getting it close to (IIRC) around a 40 arc second drift.
Your warning about careful attention to step 2 & 3 – I assume you mean getting the mouse pointer dead centered on the star trail ends and the sampled star in the three test images. I used your “magnifying glass curser to center on the three samples, then moved the curser grid with the keyboard direction keys, for ultimate precision. to get the curser dead center on the star or trail. That was a GREAT idea, as so very many of yours are,  in recent versions of PemPro.
 
    The plan is to do an East side run, with the camera oriented as it was, and always is when I set up for a session. I’ll also pick a spot further away  from the prime meridian, since I was already crowding your default 5 degree proximity for the tracking starting position’s initial user slew.
 
    Finally, IIRC you once said that PEC being on or off  didn’t matter for the polar alignment process, as PEMPRO already compensates for it, during the analysis.  I always leave it turned OFF when starting PEMPRO – especially now, since this CP4 unit is under its first use since repair two years ago, so there is no valid PEC curve recorded in it.
 
    Not to worry – PEMPRO is and always was,  a great tool, fun to use, provides a wealth of detail about the scope and controller. The program and I just have to come to terms on our sense of adjustment directions :-)
 
Joe Z.
 

From: Ray Gralak
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 11:23 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
 
Hi Joe,

If you want to confirm your findings, and that you aren't getting fooled by something else like tube currents, try purposely offsetting the polar alignment by a large amount in both Alt and Az. Make sure you accurately perform steps 2 and 3, otherwise you might see the behavior you saw.

I would try it myself with the latest version but have been socked in by the marine layer and smoke from fires. That said, I used PEMPro to tweak polar alignment just a couple weeks ago and the directions were not reversed for me.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 5:56 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
>
> Yes Ray.
>
>     We’re on the same page, and I’ve got my bearings.
> It is a standard  “Push-Pull” system. Screwing-in the right side knob  (on the west side on an AP-1200),   where the
> AZ adjuster is located on the AP-1200 North side of the pier, pushes  the mount’s base plate around,  away  from
> the pier-fixed  center post – and turns the entire mount counter-clockwise.
>
>     I’ve done it lots of times, and every time I do, I try to envisage what each turn of a knob results in.
>
> Joe.
>
> From: Ray Gralak
> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 7:04 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
>
> Hi Joe,
>
> Just to be sure you are adjusting the correct knobs, for a 1200GTO, to rotate the mount clockwise, you tighten the
> knob facing to the East. To rotate the mount counter-clockwise, you tighten the knob facing to the West. After each
> adjustment, you should tighten all mount knobs so that you are measuring the drift in the state that the mount will
> be in when you will be using it.
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of PEMPro
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physicscom/apcc-pro
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
> > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 3:10 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
> >
> > Hi Ray,
> >
> >     It was a very long night, so I must have redone PEMPRO about 5 or 6 times.  I could have made the same
> > mistake in the lead up to the drift graph,  every time, but I doubt it I’m not new to PEMPRO use, but it is
> infrequent.
> > Luckily, the instructions are simple.
> >
> >     As Tom mentioned earlier, after a few tries following screen hints, it was obvious that doing so made the drift
> > error progressively worse, so I reversed the logic, and turned the AZ “knobs” to rotate the mount towards the
> other
> > direction. This made it settle down, and using the reverse direction was then consistently better.
> > By reversal, I mean that the entire run was giving contrary directions, as did the reruns after that. It wasn’t a logic
> > reversal DURING a run.
> >
> >     At each correction, I looked down at the mount baseplate, and considered which knob would “push it towards
> or
> > away from the AZ post” in the direction for the mount to rotate, (horizontally in AZ), per the given instruction. I still
> > “suspect” that this reversal of procedure may have to do with choosing one side of the meridian, while the
> camera
> > is either straight up, or inverted. But, that should have been determined automatically,  during the calibration
> steps
> > of clicking on the star trail, and the three star image targets.
> >
> >     PEMPRO worked fine for me a couple of years ago, using an earlier revision, but has also happened the weird
> > way, at other times in the past. I have used several versions over more than a decade. I’ll continue to investigate
> > its problem, or possibly mine. Perhaps I will discover a unique set of conditions that causes the logic  reversal.
> >
> >     Please stay safe out there Ray. We need you healthy at all times.
> > Best regards,
> > Joe Z.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Ray Gralak
> > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 4:14 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
> >
> > Hi Joe,
> >
> > I have used PEMPro a number of times in the last few months on my 1100AE and 1200 mounts, and haven't
> seen
> > any direction reversals, but I can double check the next year (lol) that my California skies are clear enough.
> > Assuming you went through the calibration steps correctly, is it possible you could have adjusted the wrong
> > Azimuth knob?
> >
> > Also, being above or below the pole will not affect the Az direction at all.
> >
> > >     I also had problems with connecting the camera to the software (CCDSOFT) – kept getting the “Unavailable
> > > ACTIVEX module” error, unless I run both the camera software (CCDSOFT) and PEMPRO-V3, “as ADMIN”.
> The
> > > website claims this is only necessary to do once, to register CCDSOFT’s Activex module – but that does NOT
> > > seem to be the case. It has to be started  in Admin mode (before) starting PEMPRO,   every time.
> >
> > CCDSoft (and any other ActiveX control) should register itself when it is installed, which it doesn't. If it can't
> register
> > itself even when running as Administrator, then maybe there is reason. You might try changing the compatibility
> > mode of CCDSoft to Windows 7.
> >
> > -Ray Gralak
> > Author of PEMPro
> > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physicscom/apcc-pro
> > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
> > > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 12:19 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro..Suggestions for my AP600e?
> > >
> > > Hi Tom,
> > >
> > >     Funny that you should mention the odd “adjustment direction” misbehaviour running PEMPRO.
> > >
> > >     Like you, I have years of familiarity with PEMPRO, and it is actually fun to use. However, I spent hours last
> > > night,  trying to get it to behave with my AP-1200/CP4. I quickly realized that I should do the opposite,  to the
> > > direction it was asking me to adjust the AZ. Every time it said Clockwise rotation, I rotated the AZ COUNTER
> > > clockwise, and that worked fine. Otherwise, as in your experience, following its suggestion, the gap just
> widened
> > > with every suggested direction adjustment.
> > >
> > >     I think the initial setup calibration  pointing to either your East side or West of the meridian, should
> > automatically
> > > determine if the camera ‘s vertical direction, Mine was upside down, during the run, pointing to   West of the
> PM.
> > > Next time out, I will rerun PEMPRO, but with the scope pointing to the East side of the PM, and see if the
> > direction
> > > to turn then becomes correct. As I recall, the older versions had “hockey sticks” on the drift graph, for us to help
> > > specify the camera orientation. Now it is supposed to be automatic.
> > >
> > >     Ray, is it possible that without doing the DEC adjustment, the scope axis is pointing below or above Polaris,
> > and
> > > this makes it offer the contrary direction suggestions?
> > >
> > >     I also had problems with connecting the camera to the software (CCDSOFT) – kept getting the “Unavailable
> > > ACTIVEX module” error, unless I run both the camera software (CCDSOFT) and PEMPRO-V3, “as ADMIN”.
> The
> > > website claims this is only necessary to do once, to register CCDSOFT’s Activex module – but that does NOT
> > > seem to be the case. It has to be started  in Admin mode (before) starting PEMPRO,   every time.
> > >
> > >     It is a great program, but seems to have some “direction prompting” quirks, as we have both witnessed, and
> > > which I will investigate further to double check my observations.
> > >
> > > Joe Z.
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Tom Blahovici
> > > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 2:08 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > Subject: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > I am using an AP600e with a CP4 controller and am attempting to polar align with PemPro.
> > >
> > > I am quite familiar with the software. That is not an issue. However, how to use it properly is obviously not
> > > apparent in my case.  I have spend at least 2 hours trying to get the polar alignment even within 1 arc minute.
> > > I did the first alignment last week, and it seemed I was within 1 minute  I checked it yesterday, and it was a
> > degree
> > > off. I kept trying to adjust both azimuth and altitude, but the trend lines were never stable seeing to go all over
> the
> > > place.
> > > It would show a line being off by 6 minutes and I would adjust the mount in the right direction only to find it was
> > > even higher.  Not only that, when I did get it close, the trend line would be fine for the first 3 minutes only to
> then
> > > start slanting again.
> > > It should not be this unstable.
> > > A bit about the mount: It is mounted on a 10 inch diameter pier on top of a solid 3' x 3' concrete block that is 6
> > feet
> > > long buried in the ground. It has been there for 5 years or so. There is no flexing on the mounting at all.  Rock
> > > solid.  Scope is an FSQ106 with Moonlight nightcrawler with screw in adapters.  The drive has a very smooth 3
> > arc
> > > second peak to peak tracking.  With PEM, +-2.8.
> > > I am using APCC standard and the pointing has been calibrated.
> > > Any hints please?
> > > Thanks, Tom
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>




Re: PEMPro results

Ray Gralak
 

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the great feedback! I am glad you are happy with the results using PEMPro!

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Eric Dreher
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 6:58 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: [ap-gto] PEMPro results

[Edited Message Follows]

Last night our transparency conditions were not the greatest, but seeing was good so I though I'd do a PEMPro for
my 2017 Mach1GTO.

Initially I was a bit let-down after seeing the +/- 4.7 arc/sec of period error, but this is a three year-old mount. I've
seen comments that the 7" pk/pk applies to mounts newly acquired. I was very impressed about the textbook
sinusoidal PE graph produced after six worm periods. A very smooth pattern/curve on its own.

My initial RMS was 1.06 which was reduced to 0.298 in the final results after the PE curve was uploaded to my
mount. I did have some difficulty with PEMPro not wanting to invert the curve which was necessary. I restarted
PEMPro and saw the splash screen come up for well over 45 seconds. I was patient and waited for it to
disappear, which is finally did. I was then able to invert and upload the curve to my mount, but I'm not sure why
the delay.

My pk/pk error was flatlined. This was the first time I'd used PEMPro, despite having owned it for several years.
The "fear factor" is gone, and I'm looking forward to doing this again every few months. This is an incredible piece
of software that works well, does what it says, and makes a huge difference in your guiding. My RMS results were
in the low 0.4x", with RA now closer to DEC results.

Thanks, Ray.

Eric


Re: Q. for Ray Gralak about PEMPro

Ray Gralak
 

Hi Curtis,

 

>          * Damaged worm wheel teeth.

>

> The curve looks smooth to me.  I'd think it would show some

> irregularities if the worm were damaged.  But you

> looked at my logs.  What do you think?

 

I think you are confusing the worm gear with the worm wheel. The worm wheel is the large gear with 225 teeth that drives the mount. It rotates once per sidereal day. The worm turns one revolution for each of the 225 teeth, thus 225 times in a sidereal day (which is about 4 minutes less than 24 hours). Here's an example screenshot of an online image of a worm and worm wheel:

 

 

 

When you capture periodic error over, say 6 worm cycles, you are measuring the periodic error over 6 of the 225 teeth of the worm wheel. The shape of each worm wheel tooth can contribute to tracking error recorded by PEMPro. That's why in some PE graphs the shape is not precisely the same between worm cycles.

 

If some of the worm wheel teeth are malformed or have large particles, that can cause the corresponding worm cycles to look different. If some worm wheel teeth are damaged or not spaced evenly, this could cause the periodic error to be larger than that contributed by the worm alone. Also, improper gear meshing can cause varying worm peak/peak values because the worm gear can ride too tightly (or loosely) on the worm wheel.

 

-Ray Gralak

Author of PEMPro

Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro

Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

 

 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of CurtisC via groups.io

> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 8:55 PM

> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Q. for Ray Gralak about PEMPro

>

> On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 11:34 AM, Ray Gralak wrote:

>

>

>          * Damaged worm wheel teeth.

>

> The curve looks smooth to me.  I'd think it would show some irregularities if the worm were damaged.  But you

> looked at my logs.  What do you think?


Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Ray Gralak
 

Hi Joe,

Even if PEMPro happened to chose Saturn or Jupiter, I do not think they are moving fast enough in declination to matter.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 6:11 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Ray,

One thought came to me during my problematic runs – the major planets (Jupiter & Saturn) are very close to the
meridian right now, slightly south of the equatorial. This won’t matter at any other time, but for the present, is there
any chance that PEMPRO might have latched onto a bright planet, as it searched for a suitable star at say 3
degrees from the meridian? Then it is tracking something moving at “planetary rate” rather than sidereal.
Of course this conjunction would never happen again, but just a coincidence, at this time. Never happened over all
my years of using PEMPRO.

Would have been safer to target a star myself elsewhere in the nearby region, rather than take the easy & quick
choice of letting PEMPRO find something suitable like the sweet spot, at the equator, 3 degrees west of PM. Or,
maybe my change from the default of 5 degrees to 3 degrees, might have pushed the scope to the east of the PM
during its square pattern search, causing the confusion in reference direction when the drift measurement started.
Probably a stretch here.

Joe

From: Ray Gralak
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 8:33 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Can the dew heater cause a non-stable drift alignment?
Taken from PEMPro’s polar alignment checklist:



-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tom Blahovici
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 4:36 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Ray,
I have two separate question threads running... one for PEM and one for polar alignment. This one is polar
alignment. Can the dew heater cause a non-stable drift alignment? It seems to go all over the place.


Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Ray Gralak
 

Hi Joe,

If you want to confirm your findings, and that you aren't getting fooled by something else like tube currents, try purposely offsetting the polar alignment by a large amount in both Alt and Az. Make sure you accurately perform steps 2 and 3, otherwise you might see the behavior you saw.

I would try it myself with the latest version but have been socked in by the marine layer and smoke from fires. That said, I used PEMPro to tweak polar alignment just a couple weeks ago and the directions were not reversed for me.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 5:56 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Yes Ray.

We’re on the same page, and I’ve got my bearings.
It is a standard “Push-Pull” system. Screwing-in the right side knob (on the west side on an AP-1200), where the
AZ adjuster is located on the AP-1200 North side of the pier, pushes the mount’s base plate around, away from
the pier-fixed center post – and turns the entire mount counter-clockwise.

I’ve done it lots of times, and every time I do, I try to envisage what each turn of a knob results in.

Joe.

From: Ray Gralak
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 7:04 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Hi Joe,

Just to be sure you are adjusting the correct knobs, for a 1200GTO, to rotate the mount clockwise, you tighten the
knob facing to the East. To rotate the mount counter-clockwise, you tighten the knob facing to the West. After each
adjustment, you should tighten all mount knobs so that you are measuring the drift in the state that the mount will
be in when you will be using it.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 3:10 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Hi Ray,

It was a very long night, so I must have redone PEMPRO about 5 or 6 times. I could have made the same
mistake in the lead up to the drift graph, every time, but I doubt it. I’m not new to PEMPRO use, but it is
infrequent.
Luckily, the instructions are simple.

As Tom mentioned earlier, after a few tries following screen hints, it was obvious that doing so made the drift
error progressively worse, so I reversed the logic, and turned the AZ “knobs” to rotate the mount towards the
other
direction. This made it settle down, and using the reverse direction was then consistently better.
By reversal, I mean that the entire run was giving contrary directions, as did the reruns after that. It wasn’t a logic
reversal DURING a run.

At each correction, I looked down at the mount baseplate, and considered which knob would “push it towards
or
away from the AZ post” in the direction for the mount to rotate, (horizontally in AZ), per the given instruction. I still
“suspect” that this reversal of procedure may have to do with choosing one side of the meridian, while the
camera
is either straight up, or inverted. But, that should have been determined automatically, during the calibration
steps
of clicking on the star trail, and the three star image targets.

PEMPRO worked fine for me a couple of years ago, using an earlier revision, but has also happened the weird
way, at other times in the past. I have used several versions over more than a decade. I’ll continue to investigate
its problem, or possibly mine. Perhaps I will discover a unique set of conditions that causes the logic reversal.

Please stay safe out there Ray. We need you healthy at all times.
Best regards,
Joe Z.



From: Ray Gralak
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Hi Joe,

I have used PEMPro a number of times in the last few months on my 1100AE and 1200 mounts, and haven't
seen
any direction reversals, but I can double check the next year (lol) that my California skies are clear enough.
Assuming you went through the calibration steps correctly, is it possible you could have adjusted the wrong
Azimuth knob?

Also, being above or below the pole will not affect the Az direction at all.

I also had problems with connecting the camera to the software (CCDSOFT) – kept getting the “Unavailable
ACTIVEX module” error, unless I run both the camera software (CCDSOFT) and PEMPRO-V3, “as ADMIN”.
The
website claims this is only necessary to do once, to register CCDSOFT’s Activex module – but that does NOT
seem to be the case. It has to be started in Admin mode (before) starting PEMPRO, every time.
CCDSoft (and any other ActiveX control) should register itself when it is installed, which it doesn't. If it can't
register
itself even when running as Administrator, then maybe there is reason. You might try changing the compatibility
mode of CCDSoft to Windows 7.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physicscom/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 12:19 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Hi Tom,

Funny that you should mention the odd “adjustment direction” misbehaviour running PEMPRO.

Like you, I have years of familiarity with PEMPRO, and it is actually fun to use. However, I spent hours last
night, trying to get it to behave with my AP-1200/CP4. I quickly realized that I should do the opposite, to the
direction it was asking me to adjust the AZ. Every time it said Clockwise rotation, I rotated the AZ COUNTER
clockwise, and that worked fine. Otherwise, as in your experience, following its suggestion, the gap just
widened
with every suggested direction adjustment.

I think the initial setup calibration pointing to either your East side or West of the meridian, should
automatically
determine if the camera ‘s vertical direction, Mine was upside down, during the run, pointing to West of the
PM.
Next time out, I will rerun PEMPRO, but with the scope pointing to the East side of the PM, and see if the
direction
to turn then becomes correct. As I recall, the older versions had “hockey sticks” on the drift graph, for us to help
specify the camera orientation. Now it is supposed to be automatic.

Ray, is it possible that without doing the DEC adjustment, the scope axis is pointing below or above Polaris,
and
this makes it offer the contrary direction suggestions?

I also had problems with connecting the camera to the software (CCDSOFT) – kept getting the “Unavailable
ACTIVEX module” error, unless I run both the camera software (CCDSOFT) and PEMPRO-V3, “as ADMIN”.
The
website claims this is only necessary to do once, to register CCDSOFT’s Activex module – but that does NOT
seem to be the case. It has to be started in Admin mode (before) starting PEMPRO, every time.

It is a great program, but seems to have some “direction prompting” quirks, as we have both witnessed, and
which I will investigate further to double check my observations.

Joe Z.


From: Tom Blahovici
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 2:08 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?


Hi,
I am using an AP600e with a CP4 controller and am attempting to polar align with PemPro.

I am quite familiar with the software. That is not an issue. However, how to use it properly is obviously not
apparent in my case. I have spend at least 2 hours trying to get the polar alignment even within 1 arc minute.
I did the first alignment last week, and it seemed I was within 1 minute I checked it yesterday, and it was a
degree
off. I kept trying to adjust both azimuth and altitude, but the trend lines were never stable seeing to go all over
the
place.
It would show a line being off by 6 minutes and I would adjust the mount in the right direction only to find it was
even higher. Not only that, when I did get it close, the trend line would be fine for the first 3 minutes only to
then
start slanting again.
It should not be this unstable.
A bit about the mount: It is mounted on a 10 inch diameter pier on top of a solid 3' x 3' concrete block that is 6
feet
long buried in the ground. It has been there for 5 years or so. There is no flexing on the mounting at all. Rock
solid. Scope is an FSQ106 with Moonlight nightcrawler with screw in adapters. The drive has a very smooth 3
arc
second peak to peak tracking. With PEM, +-2.8.
I am using APCC standard and the pointing has been calibrated.
Any hints please?
Thanks, Tom










Re: Help, my Mach2 seems to be lost #APCC #Mach2GTO

Terri Zittritsch
 

Happened to me to a few times in my first couple of months with the mount.   Make sure you learn how to setup find home within APCC and know how to use it.


Terri


PEMPro results

Eric Dreher
 
Edited

Last night our transparency conditions were not the greatest, but seeing was good so I though I'd do a PEMPro for my 2017 Mach1GTO.

Initially I was a bit let-down after seeing the +/- 4.7 arc/sec of period error, but this is a three year-old mount.  I've seen comments that the 7" pk/pk applies to mounts newly acquired.  I was very impressed about the textbook sinusoidal PE graph produced after six worm periods.  A very smooth pattern/curve on its own.

My initial RMS was 1.06 which was reduced to 0.298 in the final results after the PE curve was uploaded to my mount.  I did have some difficulty with PEMPro not wanting to invert the curve which was necessary.  I restarted PEMPro and saw the splash screen come up for well over 45 seconds.  I was patient and waited for it to disappear, which is finally did.  I was then able to invert and upload the curve to my mount, but I'm not sure why the delay.

My pk/pk error was flatlined.  This was the first time I'd used PEMPro, despite having owned it for several years.  The "fear factor" is gone, and I'm looking forward to doing this again every few months.  This is an incredible piece of software that works well, does what it says, and makes a huge difference in your guiding.  My RMS results were in the low 0.4x", with RA now closer to DEC results.

Thanks, Ray.

Eric


Re: Q. for Ray Gralak about PEMPro

CurtisC
 

On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 11:34 AM, Ray Gralak wrote:
* Damaged worm wheel teeth.
The curve looks smooth to me.  I'd think it would show some irregularities if the worm were damaged.  But you looked at my logs.  What do you think?


Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Joe Zeglinski
 

Totally  agree with you Ray.
 
    I like to do as you suggest, stick to rotation reference rather than east/west positional.
Perhaps a good analogy is thinking how to steer an outboard motor boat. Pushing away from the centre line, rotates the boat direction.
 
    I never pay much mind to the east/west reference, but rely on considering what rotation results by pushing the left or right screw off the “centre line (post).
 
    However, that only works for the old AP-900 & AP-1200 mounts, with the azimuth adjuster at the back of the mount, on the north side. The MACH series and newer mounts have the AZ adjuster now on the south side, which work oppositely. The wording could become complicated in the instruction. Each mount owner has to imagine how the knob push system works to get a specific rotation.
 
    However, for now, I’m am convinced that I have my bearings correct, and indeed, as Tom wrote, the PEMPRO screen queues ... under some conditions perhaps ... contradict program logic, based on the resulting drift changes.
 
Joe
 

From: Ray Gralak
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 7:23 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
 
> I quickly realized that I should do the opposite,
>
> Yes.  When it says to point the mount further west,
> it really means further east, and vice versa.

Unfortunately, East/West can be ambiguous. The scope is pointing roughly South, so rotating the telescope's pointing position West actually rotates the polar azimuth position East.

To try to minimize confusion, PEMPro also states which way to rotate the mount: clockwise, or counterclockwise, if looking from the top of the mount down over the mount.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Joe Zeglinski
 

Ray,
 
    One thought came to me during my problematic runs – the major planets (Jupiter & Saturn)  are very close to the meridian right now, slightly south of the equatorial. This won’t matter at any other time, but for the present, is there any chance that PEMPRO might have latched onto a bright planet, as it searched for a suitable star at say 3 degrees from the meridian? Then it is tracking something moving at “planetary rate” rather than sidereal.
Of course this conjunction would never happen again, but just a coincidence, at this time. Never happened over all my years of using PEMPRO.
 
    Would have been safer to target a star myself elsewhere in the nearby region, rather than take the easy & quick choice of letting PEMPRO find something suitable like the sweet spot,  at the equator,  3 degrees west of PM. Or, maybe my change from the default of 5 degrees to 3 degrees, might have pushed the scope to the east of the PM during its square pattern search, causing the confusion in reference direction when the drift measurement started.
Probably a stretch here.
 
Joe
 

From: Ray Gralak
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 8:33 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
 

> Can the dew heater cause a non-stable drift alignment? 

 

Taken from PEMPro’s polar alignment checklist:

 

 

-Ray Gralak

Author of PEMPro

Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro

Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

 

 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tom Blahovici

> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 4:36 PM

> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

>

> Ray,

> I have two separate question threads running... one for PEM and one for polar alignment.  This one is polar

> alignment.  Can the dew heater cause a non-stable drift alignment?  It seems to go all over the place.


Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Joe Zeglinski
 

Yes Ray.
 
    We’re on the same page, and I’ve got my bearings.
It is a standard  “Push-Pull” system. Screwing-in the right side knob  (on the west side on an AP-1200),   where the AZ adjuster is located on the AP-1200 North side of the pier, pushes  the mount’s base plate around,  away  from the pier-fixed  center post – and turns the entire mount counter-clockwise.
 
    I’ve done it lots of times, and every time I do, I try to envisage what each turn of a knob results in.
 
Joe.
 

From: Ray Gralak
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 7:04 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
 
Hi Joe,

Just to be sure you are adjusting the correct knobs, for a 1200GTO, to rotate the mount clockwise, you tighten the knob facing to the East. To rotate the mount counter-clockwise, you tighten the knob facing to the West. After each adjustment, you should tighten all mount knobs so that you are measuring the drift in the state that the mount will be in when you will be using it.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 3:10 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
>
> Hi Ray,
>
>     It was a very long night, so I must have redone PEMPRO about 5 or 6 times.  I could have made the same
> mistake in the lead up to the drift graph,  every time, but I doubt it. I’m not new to PEMPRO use, but it is infrequent.
> Luckily, the instructions are simple.
>
>     As Tom mentioned earlier, after a few tries following screen hints, it was obvious that doing so made the drift
> error progressively worse, so I reversed the logic, and turned the AZ “knobs” to rotate the mount towards the other
> direction. This made it settle down, and using the reverse direction was then consistently better.
> By reversal, I mean that the entire run was giving contrary directions, as did the reruns after that. It wasn’t a logic
> reversal DURING a run.
>
>     At each correction, I looked down at the mount baseplate, and considered which knob would “push it towards or
> away from the AZ post” in the direction for the mount to rotate, (horizontally in AZ), per the given instruction. I still
> “suspect” that this reversal of procedure may have to do with choosing one side of the meridian, while the camera
> is either straight up, or inverted. But, that should have been determined automatically,  during the calibration steps
> of clicking on the star trail, and the three star image targets.
>
>     PEMPRO worked fine for me a couple of years ago, using an earlier revision, but has also happened the weird
> way, at other times in the past. I have used several versions over more than a decade. I’ll continue to investigate
> its problem, or possibly mine. Perhaps I will discover a unique set of conditions that causes the logic  reversal.
>
>     Please stay safe out there Ray. We need you healthy at all times.
> Best regards,
> Joe Z.
>
>
>
> From: Ray Gralak
> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 4:14 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
>
> Hi Joe,
>
> I have used PEMPro a number of times in the last few months on my 1100AE and 1200 mounts, and haven't seen
> any direction reversals, but I can double check the next year (lol) that my California skies are clear enough.
> Assuming you went through the calibration steps correctly, is it possible you could have adjusted the wrong
> Azimuth knob?
>
> Also, being above or below the pole will not affect the Az direction at all.
>
> >     I also had problems with connecting the camera to the software (CCDSOFT) – kept getting the “Unavailable
> > ACTIVEX module” error, unless I run both the camera software (CCDSOFT) and PEMPRO-V3, “as ADMIN”. The
> > website claims this is only necessary to do once, to register CCDSOFT’s Activex module – but that does NOT
> > seem to be the case. It has to be started  in Admin mode (before) starting PEMPRO,   every time.
>
> CCDSoft (and any other ActiveX control) should register itself when it is installed, which it doesn't. If it can't register
> itself even when running as Administrator, then maybe there is reason. You might try changing the compatibility
> mode of CCDSoft to Windows 7.
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of PEMPro
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physicscom/apcc-pro
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
> > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 12:19 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
> >
> > Hi Tom,
> >
> >     Funny that you should mention the odd “adjustment direction” misbehaviour running PEMPRO.
> >
> >     Like you, I have years of familiarity with PEMPRO, and it is actually fun to use. However, I spent hours last
> > night,  trying to get it to behave with my AP-1200/CP4. I quickly realized that I should do the opposite,  to the
> > direction it was asking me to adjust the AZ. Every time it said Clockwise rotation, I rotated the AZ COUNTER
> > clockwise, and that worked fine. Otherwise, as in your experience, following its suggestion, the gap just widened
> > with every suggested direction adjustment.
> >
> >     I think the initial setup calibration  pointing to either your East side or West of the meridian, should
> automatically
> > determine if the camera ‘s vertical direction, Mine was upside down, during the run, pointing to   West of the PM.
> > Next time out, I will rerun PEMPRO, but with the scope pointing to the East side of the PM, and see if the
> direction
> > to turn then becomes correct. As I recall, the older versions had “hockey sticks” on the drift graph, for us to help
> > specify the camera orientation. Now it is supposed to be automatic.
> >
> >     Ray, is it possible that without doing the DEC adjustment, the scope axis is pointing below or above Polaris,
> and
> > this makes it offer the contrary direction suggestions?
> >
> >     I also had problems with connecting the camera to the software (CCDSOFT) – kept getting the “Unavailable
> > ACTIVEX module” error, unless I run both the camera software (CCDSOFT) and PEMPRO-V3, “as ADMIN”. The
> > website claims this is only necessary to do once, to register CCDSOFT’s Activex module – but that does NOT
> > seem to be the case. It has to be started  in Admin mode (before) starting PEMPRO,   every time.
> >
> >     It is a great program, but seems to have some “direction prompting” quirks, as we have both witnessed, and
> > which I will investigate further to double check my observations.
> >
> > Joe Z.
> >
> >
> > From: Tom Blahovici
> > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 2:08 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > Subject: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> > I am using an AP600e with a CP4 controller and am attempting to polar align with PemPro.
> >
> > I am quite familiar with the software. That is not an issue. However, how to use it properly is obviously not
> > apparent in my case.  I have spend at least 2 hours trying to get the polar alignment even within 1 arc minute.
> > I did the first alignment last week, and it seemed I was within 1 minute  I checked it yesterday, and it was a
> degree
> > off. I kept trying to adjust both azimuth and altitude, but the trend lines were never stable seeing to go all over the
> > place.
> > It would show a line being off by 6 minutes and I would adjust the mount in the right direction only to find it was
> > even higher.  Not only that, when I did get it close, the trend line would be fine for the first 3 minutes only to then
> > start slanting again.
> > It should not be this unstable.
> > A bit about the mount: It is mounted on a 10 inch diameter pier on top of a solid 3' x 3' concrete block that is 6
> feet
> > long buried in the ground. It has been there for 5 years or so. There is no flexing on the mounting at all.  Rock
> > solid.  Scope is an FSQ106 with Moonlight nightcrawler with screw in adapters.  The drive has a very smooth 3
> arc
> > second peak to peak tracking.  With PEM, +-2.8.
> > I am using APCC standard and the pointing has been calibrated.
> > Any hints please?
> > Thanks, Tom
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>




Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Ray Gralak
 

> Can the dew heater cause a non-stable drift alignment? 

 

Taken from PEMPro’s polar alignment checklist:

 

 

-Ray Gralak

Author of PEMPro

Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro

Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

 

 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tom Blahovici

> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 4:36 PM

> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

>

> Ray,

> I have two separate question threads running... one for PEM and one for polar alignment.  This one is polar

> alignment.  Can the dew heater cause a non-stable drift alignment?  It seems to go all over the place.


Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Tom Blahovici
 

Hi
All the bolts were tightened each time I changes as or alt. I'll try again, the next free night, no heater on, and use you're trick for the altitude.
Thanks for the hints.


Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Roland Christen
 

Not tightening all the bolts can cause what you are seeing.
Plumes from a dew heater can add to that.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Blahovici <tom.va2fsq@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Sep 12, 2020 6:35 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Ray,
I have two separate question threads running... one for PEM and one for polar alignment.  This one is polar alignment.  Can the dew heater cause a non-stable drift alignment?  It seems to go all over the place.


Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?

Tom Blahovici
 

Ray,
I have two separate question threads running... one for PEM and one for polar alignment.  This one is polar alignment.  Can the dew heater cause a non-stable drift alignment?  It seems to go all over the place.

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