Date   

Re: Unguided with pointing model

dvjbaja
 

Mo,

You might be surprised to learn you can use a small guide scope and guider array where it becomes easy to find a guide star. Just say'n.

J



Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note9, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Mojo Jones <mojo@...>
Date: 5/28/20 4:01 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Unguided with pointing model

Thanks for chiming in Brian! I'm sure much of my difficulty comes from using the built-in off-axis guide camera on my ST-4000XCM, so I don't have the privilege of a wider-field guide scope. Quite often this past week I haven't had a wide enough field to find a bright enough star to peek up above the sky glow. PHD2 presents a gnarly grey noisy field, and "auto select" latches onto something that's often not a star at all.

I'd love to tweak PHD2 so it doesn't latch onto non-stars. I built a bad pixel map.

On 5/28/2020 12:58 PM, Brian Valente wrote:
Hi Mojo

>>>My biggest bugaboo in these skies is finding a suitable guide star. PHD2 will lock onto any clump of noise and hunt around the sky trying to guide on it.

I'm not sure what issue you are having, but i image in the san fernando valley (the worst) and i have no problems finding guidestars, even with a simple lodestar x2. PHD has a number of techniques and filters to rule out non-stars for star selection, so i'm surprised you are having these kinds of issues

you might consider posting your logs to the PHD forums for feedback?

Brian


On 5/28/2020 12:48 PM, Mojo Jones wrote:

My biggest bugaboo in these skies is finding a suitable guide star. PHD2 will lock onto any clump of noise and hunt around the sky trying to guide on it.





Re: Unguided with pointing model

 

Thanks for chiming in Brian! I'm sure much of my difficulty comes from using the built-in off-axis guide camera on my ST-4000XCM, so I don't have the privilege of a wider-field guide scope. Quite often this past week I haven't had a wide enough field to find a bright enough star to peek up above the sky glow. PHD2 presents a gnarly grey noisy field, and "auto select" latches onto something that's often not a star at all.

I'd love to tweak PHD2 so it doesn't latch onto non-stars. I built a bad pixel map.

On 5/28/2020 12:58 PM, Brian Valente wrote:
Hi Mojo

>>>My biggest bugaboo in these skies is finding a suitable guide star. PHD2 will lock onto any clump of noise and hunt around the sky trying to guide on it.

I'm not sure what issue you are having, but i image in the san fernando valley (the worst) and i have no problems finding guidestars, even with a simple lodestar x2. PHD has a number of techniques and filters to rule out non-stars for star selection, so i'm surprised you are having these kinds of issues

you might consider posting your logs to the PHD forums for feedback?

Brian


On 5/28/2020 12:48 PM, Mojo Jones wrote:

My biggest bugaboo in these skies is finding a suitable guide star. PHD2 will lock onto any clump of noise and hunt around the sky trying to guide on it.





Re: Unguided with pointing model

Roland Christen
 


If my assumptions are correct, how much additional setup time am I adding if I plan to create a new pointing model after every setup?
A pointing model is something completely different from a drift model. A simple pointing model can get you to various objects fairly accurately and takes just a few minutes per point. You can do 3 on one side, 3 on the other plus a quick Orthogonality model. The whole thing takes maybe 10 - 15 minutes. However, that won't do a proper drift compensation.

If you want to do unguided imaging you need to do either a full sky model using APCC Pro (takes maybe 1/2 hour during twilight), or you need to model the path along which the object tracks during the night. That can take 20 - 30 minutes depending on how many points you wish to measure.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Mojo Jones <mojo@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Thu, May 28, 2020 2:48 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Unguided with pointing model

I'm really appreciating reading about Roland's work to get pointing models into the keypad.

I've been doing a lot of imaging from home, LA County, with a Traveler, and an AP180EDT with 1100GTO. My biggest bugaboo in these skies is finding a suitable guide star. PHD2 will lock onto any clump of noise and hunt around the sky trying to guide on it.

I'm presuming that the same feat as Roland is developing for the keypad is available now if I go buy the advanced version of APCC.

I never did so because I stack my setup every evening and take it down every morning, whether I'm working from Sawpit Wash at home or GMARS in the desert.

If my assumptions are correct, how much additional setup time am I adding if I plan to create a new pointing model after every setup? (Is THAT assumption correct as well?)

Aside: I'm amazed at the results I'm getting from home. I never bothered to try it from here because I just assumed it would be a waste of time. Under the circumstances, I'm not interested in traveling anywhere (and having to use a public restroom perhaps along the two-and-a-half hour trip to get there). I just decided I'd run the Messier catalog for a quarantine project, and it's been fabulous. I'm documenting it all at http://mojo.whiteoaks.com

Best regards,
Mojo


Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Steven
 

Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!

Steve

PS: The plate solve is very useful and helpful in getting accuracy - to the pixel.


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Donald Rudny <mkea13800@...>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 5:02 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
 
Thanks, Steven.

Here’s a link to the manual.

https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf


Don Rudny


On May 28, 2020, at 10:42 AM, Steven Steven <steven447@...> wrote:



ATrack (Adaptive Tracking) has been around for a year doing the same thing and recently I have switched to it for unguided imaging.  So if anyone wants to use ATrack while waiting for AP to add the software to APCC then they should contact Craig Young at Crystal Lake Observatory.  The use of PinPoint is requierd, and that's easy. 




From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Terri Zittritsch <theresamarie11@...>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:26 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
 

Roland, this looks exciting, any ETA for release?  

This seems like a great feature for us mobile (non fixed installation) users.      Given how easy and fast this is, 5 minutes/hour of object tracking, will this be usable if you also have a PC connected (for things like plate solving) and do you use it with, or instead of, APCC?    

Terri


Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Donald Rudny
 

Thanks, Steven.

Here’s a link to the manual.

On May 28, 2020, at 10:42 AM, Steven Steven <steven447@...> wrote:



ATrack (Adaptive Tracking) has been around for a year doing the same thing and recently I have switched to it for unguided imaging.  So if anyone wants to use ATrack while waiting for AP to add the software to APCC then they should contact Craig Young at Crystal Lake Observatory.  The use of PinPoint is requierd, and that's easy. 




From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Terri Zittritsch <theresamarie11@...>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:26 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
 

Roland, this looks exciting, any ETA for release?  

This seems like a great feature for us mobile (non fixed installation) users.      Given how easy and fast this is, 5 minutes/hour of object tracking, will this be usable if you also have a PC connected (for things like plate solving) and do you use it with, or instead of, APCC?    

Terri


Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Steven
 

ATrack (Adaptive Tracking) has been around for a year doing the same thing and recently I have switched to it for unguided imaging.  So if anyone wants to use ATrack while waiting for AP to add the software to APCC then they should contact Craig Young at Crystal Lake Observatory.  The use of PinPoint is requierd, and that's easy. 




From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Terri Zittritsch <theresamarie11@...>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:26 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
 

Roland, this looks exciting, any ETA for release?  

This seems like a great feature for us mobile (non fixed installation) users.      Given how easy and fast this is, 5 minutes/hour of object tracking, will this be usable if you also have a PC connected (for things like plate solving) and do you use it with, or instead of, APCC?    

Terri


Re: Are there plans for APCC Pro to support ASTAP plate solver?

Bill Long
 

Platesolve2 is widespread and commonly used as well. Would be good to get more options than just SkyX or SGP. 


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Dean Jacobsen <deanjacobsen@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 1:15 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Are there plans for APCC Pro to support ASTAP plate solver?
 
Hi Cytan,  the APPM section of the APCC Pro manual says you can also use TheSkyX Pro or Sequence Generator. 
--
Dean Jacobsen
http://astrophoto.net/wp/ 
Image Gallery - http://astrophoto.net/wp/image-gallery/
Astrobin - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/ 


Re: Are there plans for APCC Pro to support ASTAP plate solver?

Cheng-Yang Tan
 

I use APT for capture which is not compatible with APPM.

cytan

On Thursday, May 28, 2020, 03:15:15 PM CDT, Dean Jacobsen <deanjacobsen@...> wrote:


Hi Cytan,  the APPM section of the APCC Pro manual says you can also use TheSkyX Pro or Sequence Generator. 
--
Dean Jacobsen
http://astrophoto.net/wp/ 
Image Gallery - http://astrophoto.net/wp/image-gallery/
Astrobin - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/ 


Re: Are there plans for APCC Pro to support ASTAP plate solver?

Dean Jacobsen
 

Hi Cytan,  the APPM section of the APCC Pro manual says you can also use TheSkyX Pro or Sequence Generator. 
--
Dean Jacobsen
http://astrophoto.net/wp/ 
Image Gallery - http://astrophoto.net/wp/image-gallery/
Astrobin - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/ 


Are there plans for APCC Pro to support ASTAP plate solver?

Cheng-Yang Tan
 

Hi guys,
   After all the excitement with the new sky modeling system that Roland is testing, it brought me back to whether to buy APCC Pro because APCC Pro has the sky modeling built in. And the best part is that it does the modeling automagically. One thing holding me back from buying APCC Pro is because I will need to buy PinPoint. IMO, I am loathe to spend money on PinPoint when I have both ASPS and ASTAP doing the same thing but free. There was some talk a while ago about supporting ASTAP plate solver in APCC Pro. Is this in the works?

cytan


Re: Unguided with pointing model

 

Hi Mojo

My biggest bugaboo in these skies is finding a suitable guide star.
PHD2 will lock onto any clump of noise and hunt around the sky trying to guide on it.

I'm not sure what issue you are having, but i image in the san fernando valley (the worst) and i have no problems finding guidestars, even with a simple lodestar x2. PHD has a number of techniques and filters to rule out non-stars for star selection, so i'm surprised you are having these kinds of issues

you might consider posting your logs to the PHD forums for feedback?

Brian


On 5/28/2020 12:48 PM, Mojo Jones wrote:

My biggest bugaboo in these skies is finding a suitable guide star. PHD2 will lock onto any clump of noise and hunt around the sky trying to guide on it.


Unguided with pointing model

 

I'm really appreciating reading about Roland's work to get pointing models into the keypad.

I've been doing a lot of imaging from home, LA County, with a Traveler, and an AP180EDT with 1100GTO. My biggest bugaboo in these skies is finding a suitable guide star. PHD2 will lock onto any clump of noise and hunt around the sky trying to guide on it.

I'm presuming that the same feat as Roland is developing for the keypad is available now if I go buy the advanced version of APCC.

I never did so because I stack my setup every evening and take it down every morning, whether I'm working from Sawpit Wash at home or GMARS in the desert.

If my assumptions are correct, how much additional setup time am I adding if I plan to create a new pointing model after every setup? (Is THAT assumption correct as well?)

Aside: I'm amazed at the results I'm getting from home. I never bothered to try it from here because I just assumed it would be a waste of time. Under the circumstances, I'm not interested in traveling anywhere (and having to use a public restroom perhaps along the two-and-a-half hour trip to get there). I just decided I'd run the Messier catalog for a quarantine project, and it's been fabulous. I'm documenting it all at http://mojo.whiteoaks.com

Best regards,
Mojo


Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Joseph Beyer
 

Rolando,

Thanks for the additional information.  That was my assumption all along.  The mount isn't doing anything unexpected it's responding to the input being issued.

It's exactly the same scenario with my dogs.  

Joe 

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 12:23 PM uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

When the mount is in counterweight-up position and BYN triggers a dither, the mount first returns to counterweight-horizontal position to move the small increment,
When you are in counterweight up, the mount moves according to the safety protocol. There are two ways to move a mount.

First is to simply issue a timed move. Example: I want to move 15 arc sec, so I issue a command to move for 1 second at 1x sidereal. This will not rigger a safety move. The mount will instantly move to the correct point and not return to the counterweight down position.

Second is to issue a coordinate command move. Example: Move mount coordinate by 15 arc seconds. This will trigger a safety slew as you experienced.

The fact that 3rd party developers don't understand the difference and consequences causes them to use the wrong approach to dithering, and thus you end up with the extra wasted move. It is not the mount's fault, it is doing exactly what it should do.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Beyer <jcbeyer2001@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Thu, May 28, 2020 1:54 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

I need to try out SGP direct dithering. 

When direct dithering using BYN it works fine when the mount is in counterweight-down position. When the mount is in counterweight-up position and BYN triggers a dither, the mount first returns to counterweight-horizontal position to move the small increment, I assume is in the DEC axis, then returns to the imaging position. Clearly not an economy of motion. George says this is due to BYN not being able to work through the ASCOM V2 safety protocols. If I understood his message correctly SGP is able to use the V2 protocol.  It should be able to move the several pixel distance without first moving the degrees of RA distance.  

Hopefully SGP works more efficiently. I’d like to be able to keep the option to image without guiding in the counterweight-up position and direct dither. If not, the next best thing would be as Roland recommended leave PHD2 at an idle and just use it for dithering. It seems to work fine with the counterweights up. 

Joe

On May 28, 2020, at 11:00 AM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:



So, when using the keypad quick method, what happens after a meridian flip?
You would need a model for the path that the object takes, one on either side of the meridian.

For some objects you may be able to start the scope under the mount and image all night long without ever flipping. It depends on the amount of clearance you have at the back of the scope before it hits the pier or tripod legs. With my short scope (130EDF) i can start under the mount for any object that's just south of the zenith. With the long 160 refractor it clears the tripod legs about 18 degrees south of the zenith.

Starting under the mount I can image the same object from dusk to dawn without flipping. I would then do a model of 8 points every 1.5 hours or so along the path.

Otherwise, if you flip, you will do a separate model on each side. Of course, doing the entire sky manually would take a lot of time. So if that's the goal, I would just let APCC Pro do it automatically.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Jacobsen <deanjacobsen@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Thu, May 28, 2020 12:12 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 09:35 AM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> wrote:
Right now we have not integrated plate solving, but this may be added in the future to make the cycle faster. Remember, this is just a quick way to achieve unguided imaging for an object that you wish to image all night long. Doesn't require super perfect polar alignment, although you want to be close to prevent field rotation.
Assume that the mount will be taken down and then set up for each use.

So, when using the keypad quick method, what happens after a meridian flip?

Will I need to re-do it again? ... or would doing the automated APCC full sky model be the best approach?
 
--
Dean Jacobsen
http://astrophoto.net/wp/ 
Image Gallery - http://astrophoto.net/wp/image-gallery/
Astrobin - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/ 


Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Roland Christen
 


When the mount is in counterweight-up position and BYN triggers a dither, the mount first returns to counterweight-horizontal position to move the small increment,
When you are in counterweight up, the mount moves according to the safety protocol. There are two ways to move a mount.

First is to simply issue a timed move. Example: I want to move 15 arc sec, so I issue a command to move for 1 second at 1x sidereal. This will not rigger a safety move. The mount will instantly move to the correct point and not return to the counterweight down position.

Second is to issue a coordinate command move. Example: Move mount coordinate by 15 arc seconds. This will trigger a safety slew as you experienced.

The fact that 3rd party developers don't understand the difference and consequences causes them to use the wrong approach to dithering, and thus you end up with the extra wasted move. It is not the mount's fault, it is doing exactly what it should do.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Beyer <jcbeyer2001@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Thu, May 28, 2020 1:54 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

I need to try out SGP direct dithering. 

When direct dithering using BYN it works fine when the mount is in counterweight-down position. When the mount is in counterweight-up position and BYN triggers a dither, the mount first returns to counterweight-horizontal position to move the small increment, I assume is in the DEC axis, then returns to the imaging position. Clearly not an economy of motion. George says this is due to BYN not being able to work through the ASCOM V2 safety protocols. If I understood his message correctly SGP is able to use the V2 protocol.  It should be able to move the several pixel distance without first moving the degrees of RA distance.  

Hopefully SGP works more efficiently. I’d like to be able to keep the option to image without guiding in the counterweight-up position and direct dither. If not, the next best thing would be as Roland recommended leave PHD2 at an idle and just use it for dithering. It seems to work fine with the counterweights up. 

Joe

On May 28, 2020, at 11:00 AM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...> wrote:



So, when using the keypad quick method, what happens after a meridian flip?
You would need a model for the path that the object takes, one on either side of the meridian.

For some objects you may be able to start the scope under the mount and image all night long without ever flipping. It depends on the amount of clearance you have at the back of the scope before it hits the pier or tripod legs. With my short scope (130EDF) i can start under the mount for any object that's just south of the zenith. With the long 160 refractor it clears the tripod legs about 18 degrees south of the zenith.

Starting under the mount I can image the same object from dusk to dawn without flipping. I would then do a model of 8 points every 1.5 hours or so along the path.

Otherwise, if you flip, you will do a separate model on each side. Of course, doing the entire sky manually would take a lot of time. So if that's the goal, I would just let APCC Pro do it automatically.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Jacobsen <deanjacobsen@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Thu, May 28, 2020 12:12 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 09:35 AM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> wrote:
Right now we have not integrated plate solving, but this may be added in the future to make the cycle faster. Remember, this is just a quick way to achieve unguided imaging for an object that you wish to image all night long. Doesn't require super perfect polar alignment, although you want to be close to prevent field rotation.
Assume that the mount will be taken down and then set up for each use.

So, when using the keypad quick method, what happens after a meridian flip?

Will I need to re-do it again? ... or would doing the automated APCC full sky model be the best approach?
 
--
Dean Jacobsen
http://astrophoto.net/wp/ 
Image Gallery - http://astrophoto.net/wp/image-gallery/
Astrobin - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/ 


Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Joseph Beyer
 

Brian, 

Thanks for the clarification on SGP.  Just one more reason to start using it routinely.  I've only been using it to interface with APPM up until now and it's been fairly straight forward to set up. 

BTW, apologies to the list for the duplicate messages.  Not sure why they are being posted twice.  

Joe 

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 11:59 AM Brian Valente <bvalente@...> wrote:
Joe

SGP Direct Mount dither does not require moving back to CWD first. It moves a specified amount of time in a random direction, for example 0.10 seconds

image.png

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 11:54 AM Joseph Beyer <jcbeyer2001@...> wrote:
I need to try out SGP direct dithering. 

When direct dithering using BYN it works fine when the mount is in counterweight-down position. When the mount is in counterweight-up position and BYN triggers a dither, the mount first returns to counterweight-horizontal position to move the small increment, I assume is in the DEC axis, then returns to the imaging position. Clearly not an economy of motion. George says this is due to BYN not being able to work through the ASCOM V2 safety protocols. If I understood his message correctly SGP is able to use the V2 protocol.  It should be able to move the several pixel distance without first moving the degrees of RA distance.  

Hopefully SGP works more efficiently. I’d like to be able to keep the option to image without guiding in the counterweight-up position and direct dither. If not, the next best thing would be as Roland recommended leave PHD2 at an idle and just use it for dithering. It seems to work fine with the counterweights up. 

Joe

On May 28, 2020, at 11:00 AM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:



So, when using the keypad quick method, what happens after a meridian flip?
You would need a model for the path that the object takes, one on either side of the meridian.

For some objects you may be able to start the scope under the mount and image all night long without ever flipping. It depends on the amount of clearance you have at the back of the scope before it hits the pier or tripod legs. With my short scope (130EDF) i can start under the mount for any object that's just south of the zenith. With the long 160 refractor it clears the tripod legs about 18 degrees south of the zenith.

Starting under the mount I can image the same object from dusk to dawn without flipping. I would then do a model of 8 points every 1.5 hours or so along the path.

Otherwise, if you flip, you will do a separate model on each side. Of course, doing the entire sky manually would take a lot of time. So if that's the goal, I would just let APCC Pro do it automatically.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Jacobsen <deanjacobsen@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Thu, May 28, 2020 12:12 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 09:35 AM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> wrote:
Right now we have not integrated plate solving, but this may be added in the future to make the cycle faster. Remember, this is just a quick way to achieve unguided imaging for an object that you wish to image all night long. Doesn't require super perfect polar alignment, although you want to be close to prevent field rotation.
Assume that the mount will be taken down and then set up for each use.

So, when using the keypad quick method, what happens after a meridian flip?

Will I need to re-do it again? ... or would doing the automated APCC full sky model be the best approach?
 
--
Dean Jacobsen
http://astrophoto.net/wp/ 
Image Gallery - http://astrophoto.net/wp/image-gallery/
Astrobin - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/ 



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Roland Christen
 

"So you are doing several quick keypad models in the course of the night - about every 1.5 hours."

Not exactly. I simply move the mount by 1.5 hours, do a short drift measure, move the mount again by 1.5 hours, do another, etc. until all 8 points are entered. Then I turn on the Drift model and let it run the rest of the night. The data collection (i.e. modeling) is done during twilight when the imaging system can first record stars but when it is too bright to take actual images.

There are two possible ways to do the model. Measure drift or measure the exact position of known stars which have extremely accurate data (needs a planetarium program with accurate data to .1 arc sec). In this instance I have chosen to simply measure drift along a path. Does not need a planetarium program at all or any knowledge of star names or star locations.

Step1: gather short drift measurements along the object path. Start at the object in the east, take a short exposure. Pick a star in the field (any star) and place a crosshair on it. Let it drift for 4 to 6 minutes. Recenter the star and press ENTER. You have recorded data point #1.

Step2: The keypad will now display > W 7.5 Deg. and < E 7.5 Deg. Pressing > or < advances the mount 1/2 hour. You can press it as many times as you want, each time it advances another 1/2 hour.

Step3: Pick any star in the field, place crosshair on it and repeat. (you can do this from 1 to 8 times for any constant Dec line)

When you have gathered enough points, press ESC and turn on the Drift Model. Then send the mount to the object and begin imaging. The mount will continually calculate the exact RA and Dec drive rates to keep the object centered. If done carefully you should be able to get 5, 10 and even 20 minute exposures drift-free.

This way you can quickly move across the sky along the path that the object takes and record what the drift is at each point. You do it all at once, not every few hours. That way you have a model for the entire path. You can use it every time if the mount/scope physical setup is not disturbed. If you tear down and setup next time, the model will be no good and would need to be re-done. This, of course, is fundamental to any modeling with any mount, ours as well as any competitor mount.

Is it foolproof? No, nothing is foolproof. You can certainly mess up a model and then tracking will be no good. You can also mess up guiding same way and get bad results.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Jacobsen <deanjacobsen@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Thu, May 28, 2020 1:45 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

OK, I'm following you.  Thanks.  So you are doing several quick keypad models in the course of the night - about every 1.5 hours.  For a meridian flip, then do a quick keypad model and maybe another one in about 1.5 hours.

I am looking forward to the manual.
--
Dean Jacobsen
http://astrophoto.net/wp/ 
Image Gallery - http://astrophoto.net/wp/image-gallery/
Astrobin - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/ 


Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

 

Joe

SGP Direct Mount dither does not require moving back to CWD first. It moves a specified amount of time in a random direction, for example 0.10 seconds

image.png

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 11:54 AM Joseph Beyer <jcbeyer2001@...> wrote:
I need to try out SGP direct dithering. 

When direct dithering using BYN it works fine when the mount is in counterweight-down position. When the mount is in counterweight-up position and BYN triggers a dither, the mount first returns to counterweight-horizontal position to move the small increment, I assume is in the DEC axis, then returns to the imaging position. Clearly not an economy of motion. George says this is due to BYN not being able to work through the ASCOM V2 safety protocols. If I understood his message correctly SGP is able to use the V2 protocol.  It should be able to move the several pixel distance without first moving the degrees of RA distance.  

Hopefully SGP works more efficiently. I’d like to be able to keep the option to image without guiding in the counterweight-up position and direct dither. If not, the next best thing would be as Roland recommended leave PHD2 at an idle and just use it for dithering. It seems to work fine with the counterweights up. 

Joe

On May 28, 2020, at 11:00 AM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:



So, when using the keypad quick method, what happens after a meridian flip?
You would need a model for the path that the object takes, one on either side of the meridian.

For some objects you may be able to start the scope under the mount and image all night long without ever flipping. It depends on the amount of clearance you have at the back of the scope before it hits the pier or tripod legs. With my short scope (130EDF) i can start under the mount for any object that's just south of the zenith. With the long 160 refractor it clears the tripod legs about 18 degrees south of the zenith.

Starting under the mount I can image the same object from dusk to dawn without flipping. I would then do a model of 8 points every 1.5 hours or so along the path.

Otherwise, if you flip, you will do a separate model on each side. Of course, doing the entire sky manually would take a lot of time. So if that's the goal, I would just let APCC Pro do it automatically.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Jacobsen <deanjacobsen@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Thu, May 28, 2020 12:12 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 09:35 AM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> wrote:
Right now we have not integrated plate solving, but this may be added in the future to make the cycle faster. Remember, this is just a quick way to achieve unguided imaging for an object that you wish to image all night long. Doesn't require super perfect polar alignment, although you want to be close to prevent field rotation.
Assume that the mount will be taken down and then set up for each use.

So, when using the keypad quick method, what happens after a meridian flip?

Will I need to re-do it again? ... or would doing the automated APCC full sky model be the best approach?
 
--
Dean Jacobsen
http://astrophoto.net/wp/ 
Image Gallery - http://astrophoto.net/wp/image-gallery/
Astrobin - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/ 



--
Brian 



Brian Valente


Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Joseph Beyer
 

I need to try out SGP direct dithering. 

When direct dithering using BYN it works fine when the mount is in counterweight-down position. When the mount is in counterweight-up position and BYN triggers a dither, the mount first returns to counterweight-horizontal position to move the small increment, I assume is in the DEC axis, then returns to the imaging position. Clearly not an economy of motion. George says this is due to BYN not being able to work through the ASCOM V2 safety protocols. If I understood his message correctly SGP is able to use the V2 protocol.  It should be able to move the several pixel distance without first moving the degrees of RA distance.  

Hopefully SGP works more efficiently. I’d like to be able to keep the option to image without guiding in the counterweight-up position and direct dither. If not, the next best thing would be as Roland recommended leave PHD2 at an idle and just use it for dithering. It seems to work fine with the counterweights up. 

Joe

On May 28, 2020, at 11:00 AM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> via groups.io <chris1011@...> wrote:



So, when using the keypad quick method, what happens after a meridian flip?
You would need a model for the path that the object takes, one on either side of the meridian.

For some objects you may be able to start the scope under the mount and image all night long without ever flipping. It depends on the amount of clearance you have at the back of the scope before it hits the pier or tripod legs. With my short scope (130EDF) i can start under the mount for any object that's just south of the zenith. With the long 160 refractor it clears the tripod legs about 18 degrees south of the zenith.

Starting under the mount I can image the same object from dusk to dawn without flipping. I would then do a model of 8 points every 1.5 hours or so along the path.

Otherwise, if you flip, you will do a separate model on each side. Of course, doing the entire sky manually would take a lot of time. So if that's the goal, I would just let APCC Pro do it automatically.

Rolando


-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Jacobsen <deanjacobsen@...>
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Sent: Thu, May 28, 2020 12:12 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 09:35 AM, uncarollo2 <chris1011@...> wrote:
Right now we have not integrated plate solving, but this may be added in the future to make the cycle faster. Remember, this is just a quick way to achieve unguided imaging for an object that you wish to image all night long. Doesn't require super perfect polar alignment, although you want to be close to prevent field rotation.
Assume that the mount will be taken down and then set up for each use.

So, when using the keypad quick method, what happens after a meridian flip?

Will I need to re-do it again? ... or would doing the automated APCC full sky model be the best approach?
 
--
Dean Jacobsen
http://astrophoto.net/wp/ 
Image Gallery - http://astrophoto.net/wp/image-gallery/
Astrobin - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/ 


Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Dean Jacobsen
 

OK, I'm following you.  Thanks.  So you are doing several quick keypad models in the course of the night - about every 1.5 hours.  For a meridian flip, then do a quick keypad model and maybe another one in about 1.5 hours.

I am looking forward to the manual.
--
Dean Jacobsen
http://astrophoto.net/wp/ 
Image Gallery - http://astrophoto.net/wp/image-gallery/
Astrobin - https://www.astrobin.com/users/deanjacobsen/ 


Re: time zone and daylight savings

DFisch
 

Vincent what time of the year does your section of France go on daylight savings time or do they change clocks?

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 13:02 vincent.visonneau <v.visonneau@...> wrote:

Hi

I woulk like to know what are the good time zone for my location, i live in west of france (Latitude : 47.15 north, Longitude : -1.4167) so west of the meridian...

I dont' understand what i must choose, daylight 1 or 0, which time zone and else, hope someone can help me.

Regards

Vincent

--
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