Date   

Re: Finally an image to share

Eduardo Oliveira
 

Great work!!! Congratulations!!

Eduardo

Em dom, 5 de ago de 2018 às 17:31, Bill Long bill@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...> escreveu:

 

Finally had a chance to get some more data.


https://astrob.in/full/358717/F/

At close to 6 hours now. The AP1100 has performed remarkably well. Last two sessions I was around 0.3-0.4" RMS guiding, using PEM Pro 3 for polar alignment. More to come when the OIII data kicks off.





From: Bill Long <bill@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 3:10 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Finally an image to share
 

Hello all,


Wanted to share a project I finally have in flight. I swear troubleshooting (things unrelated to my mount) this summer has been such a time sink for me. Anyhow, here is the current state of the data:


https://www.astrobin.com/full/358717/0/


Only 2 hours of HA data at this point. This was taken with a Tak TOA130 with its 0.7x reducer on it and a KAF16200-based QHY16200A camera. The lady is a fan of butterflies so, I figured I would get to working on this. Individual subs came out  very good at about 1.5px or roughly 2.5". Stars were about 0.4 eccentricity. the mount I used for this was the AP1100 using APCC Pro, but no pointing model (as APPM continually failed to solve even at the Zenith via Image Link, for some reason, and ANSVR/SGP takes way too long). I did use PEMPro to dial in the polar alignment though. Guiding in PHD2 was good at about 0.5" most of the night with some fluctuations. I used 3 second guide exposures and the minmo on the two axis was roughly set to about .45".  SGP was the capture software, and as always worked wonderfully (other than focus taking way too long).


Feel free to have a look. Hopefully the weather continues to stay nice so I can hammer away at the rest of the data. In the end it should be a SHO integration, which will look lovely. Maybe tonight I can get Image Link and APPM to play nicely. 😊


Take care and clear skies!


Bill


Re: Can I bring the CP4 into the house

Christopher Erickson
 

Of course Roland is correct!
 
Just don't move controllers BETWEEN mounts and run the motors, or the PEM curves will be either wrong or out of sync.
 
 
-Christopher Erickson
Observatory engineer
Summit Kinetics
Waikoloa, HI 96738
www.summitkinetics.com
 



From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2018 3:37 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Can I bring the CP4 into the house

It will just go into Motor Stall if it senses no motors turning.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Erickson christopher.k.erickson@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto
Sent: Thu, Aug 2, 2018 7:10 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Can I bring the CP4 into the house



If you stop tracking before shutting down and make sure tracking is stopped for the entire indoor session and is stopped until the motors are reconnected, you won't lose your PEM tracking synchronization with the RA worm drive assembly. Otherwise you will have to rebuild your PEM curve.


-Christopher Erickson
Observatory engineer
Waikoloa, HI 96738
www.summitkinetics.com
   

On Thu, Aug 2, 2018, 1:34 PM stevenhoffman53@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...> wrote:


Can I bring the CP4 into the house (power it and connect via USB) and fiddle with the horizons without having the motors attached.
Because it's going to rain and would rather not have everything outside.

Thanks!!
steve






Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: Comm errors when wireless to CP4

John Robbins
 

Thanks Ray,
I had to set the value up to 1 second to stop the Comm Errors, but it worked. 
John


Re: Recalibrate the RAPAS

Christopher Erickson
 

Yes.
 
 
-Christopher Erickson
Observatory engineer
Summit Kinetics
Waikoloa, HI 96738
www.summitkinetics.com
 



From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 5, 2018 2:56 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: [ap-gto] Recalibrate the RAPAS

Is using PEMPRO drift alignment tool the best way to recalibrate the RAPAS?


Virus-free. www.avg.com


Recalibrate the RAPAS

Bruce Donzanti
 

Is using PEMPRO drift alignment tool the best way to recalibrate the RAPAS?


Re: Finally an image to share

Stuart Heggie <stuart.j.heggie@...>
 

Even better! Nice work Bill. Interesting tip re the QHY16200A. Thanks for that too!

Stuart

On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 at 16:31, Bill Long bill@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...> wrote:
 

Finally had a chance to get some more data.


https://astrob.in/full/358717/F/

At close to 6 hours now. The AP1100 has performed remarkably well. Last two sessions I was around 0.3-0.4" RMS guiding, using PEM Pro 3 for polar alignment. More to come when the OIII data kicks off.





From: Bill Long <bill@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 3:10 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Finally an image to share
 

Hello all,


Wanted to share a project I finally have in flight. I swear troubleshooting (things unrelated to my mount) this summer has been such a time sink for me. Anyhow, here is the current state of the data:


https://www.astrobin.com/full/358717/0/


Only 2 hours of HA data at this point. This was taken with a Tak TOA130 with its 0.7x reducer on it and a KAF16200-based QHY16200A camera. The lady is a fan of butterflies so, I figured I would get to working on this. Individual subs came out  very good at about 1.5px or roughly 2.5". Stars were about 0.4 eccentricity. the mount I used for this was the AP1100 using APCC Pro, but no pointing model (as APPM continually failed to solve even at the Zenith via Image Link, for some reason, and ANSVR/SGP takes way too long). I did use PEMPro to dial in the polar alignment though. Guiding in PHD2 was good at about 0.5" most of the night with some fluctuations. I used 3 second guide exposures and the minmo on the two axis was roughly set to about .45".  SGP was the capture software, and as always worked wonderfully (other than focus taking way too long).


Feel free to have a look. Hopefully the weather continues to stay nice so I can hammer away at the rest of the data. In the end it should be a SHO integration, which will look lovely. Maybe tonight I can get Image Link and APPM to play nicely. 😊


Take care and clear skies!


Bill




Re: Finally an image to share

Bill Long
 

The QHY16200 camera is very nice, provided you use ASCOM with it. The x2 SkyX driver crashes, and INDI driver also just hangs up and never responds after a single frame. On ASCOM though, you cannot beat the sensor size to cost of this unit. OAG, camera, and filter wheel for around $4k. The filters of course will hurt in terms of your wallet, but the price to performance is outstanding IMO.




From: ap-gto@... <ap-gto@...> on behalf of Don Anderson jockey_ca@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...>
Sent: Sunday, August 5, 2018 1:43 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Finally an image to share
 
 

Nice sharp image Bill. Love the detail. That camera/scope combo is working well for you. Looking forward to seeing the completed project.

Don Anderson

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 8/5/18, Bill Long bill@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...> wrote:

Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Finally an image to share
To: "ap-gto@..." <ap-gto@...>
Received: Sunday, August 5, 2018, 2:21 PM


 













Finally had a
chance to get some more data.



https://astrob.in/full/358717/F/




At close to 6 hours
now. The AP1100 has performed remarkably well. Last two
sessions I was around 0.3-0.4" RMS guiding, using PEM
Pro 3 for polar alignment. More to come when the OIII data
kicks off.









From: Bill Long
<bill@...>

Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 3:10 PM

To: ap-gto@...

Subject: Finally an image to share
 




Hello all,



Wanted to share a
project I finally have in flight. I swear troubleshooting
(things unrelated to my mount) this summer has been such a
time sink for me. Anyhow, here is the current state of the
data:



https://www.astrobin.com/full/358717/0/



Only 2 hours of HA
data at this point. This was taken with a Tak TOA130 with
its 0.7x reducer on it and a KAF16200-based QHY16200A
camera. The lady is a fan of butterflies so, I figured I
would get to working on this.
Individual subs came out  very good at about 1.5px or
roughly 2.5". Stars were about 0.4 eccentricity. the
mount I used for this was the AP1100 using APCC Pro, but no
pointing model (as APPM continually failed to solve even at
the Zenith via Image Link, for
some reason, and ANSVR/SGP takes way too long). I did use
PEMPro to dial in the polar alignment though. Guiding in
PHD2 was good at about 0.5" most of the night with some
fluctuations. I used 3 second guide exposures and the minmo
on the two axis was roughly
set to about .45".  SGP was the capture software, and
as always worked wonderfully (other than focus taking way
too long).



Feel free to have a
look. Hopefully the weather continues to stay nice so I can
hammer away at the rest of the data. In the end it should be
a SHO integration, which will look lovely. Maybe tonight I
can get Image Link
and APPM to play nicely. 😊



Take care and clear
skies!



Bill
















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Re: Finally an image to share

Don Anderson
 

Nice sharp image Bill. Love the detail. That camera/scope combo is working well for you. Looking forward to seeing the completed project.


Don Anderson

--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 8/5/18, Bill Long bill@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...> wrote:

Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Finally an image to share
To: "ap-gto@..." <ap-gto@...>
Received: Sunday, August 5, 2018, 2:21 PM


 













Finally had a
chance to get some more data.



https://astrob.in/full/358717/F/




At close to 6 hours
now. The AP1100 has performed remarkably well. Last two
sessions I was around 0.3-0.4" RMS guiding, using PEM
Pro 3 for polar alignment. More to come when the OIII data
kicks off.









From: Bill Long
<bill@...>

Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 3:10 PM

To: ap-gto@...

Subject: Finally an image to share
 




Hello all,



Wanted to share a
project I finally have in flight. I swear troubleshooting
(things unrelated to my mount) this summer has been such a
time sink for me. Anyhow, here is the current state of the
data:



https://www.astrobin.com/full/358717/0/



Only 2 hours of HA
data at this point. This was taken with a Tak TOA130 with
its 0.7x reducer on it and a KAF16200-based QHY16200A
camera. The lady is a fan of butterflies so, I figured I
would get to working on this.
Individual subs came out  very good at about 1.5px or
roughly 2.5". Stars were about 0.4 eccentricity. the
mount I used for this was the AP1100 using APCC Pro, but no
pointing model (as APPM continually failed to solve even at
the Zenith via Image Link, for
some reason, and ANSVR/SGP takes way too long). I did use
PEMPro to dial in the polar alignment though. Guiding in
PHD2 was good at about 0.5" most of the night with some
fluctuations. I used 3 second guide exposures and the minmo
on the two axis was roughly
set to about .45".  SGP was the capture software, and
as always worked wonderfully (other than focus taking way
too long).



Feel free to have a
look. Hopefully the weather continues to stay nice so I can
hammer away at the rest of the data. In the end it should be
a SHO integration, which will look lovely. Maybe tonight I
can get Image Link
and APPM to play nicely. 😊



Take care and clear
skies!



Bill
















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Re: Finally an image to share

Bill Long
 

Finally had a chance to get some more data.


https://astrob.in/full/358717/F/

At close to 6 hours now. The AP1100 has performed remarkably well. Last two sessions I was around 0.3-0.4" RMS guiding, using PEM Pro 3 for polar alignment. More to come when the OIII data kicks off.





From: Bill Long <bill@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 3:10 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Finally an image to share
 

Hello all,


Wanted to share a project I finally have in flight. I swear troubleshooting (things unrelated to my mount) this summer has been such a time sink for me. Anyhow, here is the current state of the data:


https://www.astrobin.com/full/358717/0/


Only 2 hours of HA data at this point. This was taken with a Tak TOA130 with its 0.7x reducer on it and a KAF16200-based QHY16200A camera. The lady is a fan of butterflies so, I figured I would get to working on this. Individual subs came out  very good at about 1.5px or roughly 2.5". Stars were about 0.4 eccentricity. the mount I used for this was the AP1100 using APCC Pro, but no pointing model (as APPM continually failed to solve even at the Zenith via Image Link, for some reason, and ANSVR/SGP takes way too long). I did use PEMPro to dial in the polar alignment though. Guiding in PHD2 was good at about 0.5" most of the night with some fluctuations. I used 3 second guide exposures and the minmo on the two axis was roughly set to about .45".  SGP was the capture software, and as always worked wonderfully (other than focus taking way too long).


Feel free to have a look. Hopefully the weather continues to stay nice so I can hammer away at the rest of the data. In the end it should be a SHO integration, which will look lovely. Maybe tonight I can get Image Link and APPM to play nicely. 😊


Take care and clear skies!


Bill


Re: First light with Mach1 - a query

Paul
 

Thanks guys. Your guiding seems better than mine but early days yet😊


Re: First light with Mach1 - a query

Eric Dreher
 

I use a similar procedure with my Mach1. Two nights ago seeing was pretty good with RMS at 0.31” and dips into the high 0.2x” range.

I experimented a bit with PEM on and off, with a difference so slight it almost wasn’t worth the bother. My native PE without correction is 3.15” pk-pk. Just a fantastic mount.


Re: First light with Mach1 - a query

Ron Kramer
 

Paul, try a blind/sync in SGP first.  (well polar align first) then move off the pole a ways and do a blind/sync.  This is usually much faster than the local plate solve search. This will sync the mount properly and then a plate solve using your local database will then be much faster.  From then on you can just do SGP - slew and center using platesolve2.  works GREAT for me, but after I mess with clutches or release the worm for balance - I then need to do another blind/sync to get back to normal.  Then plate solves and centering in SGP is pretty quick and extremely accurate. My targets always appear dead center.  Latley I've been getting .3x rms average with a 6" refractor and a 80mm refractor side by side.  I sometimes see .25 and sometimes .45 but 90% of the time I'm in the 0.3x range.  I love my Mach1 too.



On Sat, Aug 4, 2018 at 7:05 PM privatekey42@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...> wrote:
 

Sure. I was just after a way to quickly fix it without having to reset everything.


Re: First light with Mach1 - a query

Paul
 

Sure. I was just after a way to quickly fix it without having to reset everything.


Re: First light with Mach1 - a query

Paul
 

Thanks Ray.


Re: First light with Mach1 - a query

Bill Long
 

In my experience, that error usually indicates that something has gone awry. 




From: ap-gto@... on behalf of 'Ray Gralak (Groups)' groups3@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Saturday, August 4, 2018 3:45 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: RE: [ap-gto] Re: First light with Mach1 - a query
 
 

Hi Paul,

> I guess one side question out of my long-winded
> one that I'd be keen to see if there's an answer
> to is is there a way to force the driver (or APCC
> or whatever) to accept an RCAL it thinks is
>too far out.

In APCC's Advanced Settings dialog there is an option called "Prevent Errant RECALs". Disabling that option will eliminate the 5 degree limit. However, I recommend that you enable the option again afterwards to prevent any potentially bad plate solves from recalibrating the mount to the wrong position.

Best regards,

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
> Sent: Saturday, August 4, 2018 3:27 PM
> To: ap-gto@...
> Subject: [ap-gto] Re: First light with Mach1 - a query
>
>
>
> I guess one side question out of my long-winded one that I'd be keen to see if there's an answer to is is there a
> way to force the driver (or APCC or whatever) to accept an RCAL it thinks is too far out.
>
> If in future I get into a weird situation where the mount is thinking its pointing somewhere its not, but the PA is
> correct, and I trust the plate solve in SGP to do its thing (which I do), then I simply want it to accept what SGP says
> without giving an error.
>
> So just a temporary removal of the threshold (how?) or changing that RCAL to SYNC again (how?). What's the
> best way using my SGP + AP driver (or APCC) combo?
>
> Thanks,
> Paul
>
>


Re: First light with Mach1 - a query

Ray Gralak
 

Hi Paul,

I guess one side question out of my long-winded
one that I'd be keen to see if there's an answer
to is is there a way to force the driver (or APCC
or whatever) to accept an RCAL it thinks is
too far out.
In APCC's Advanced Settings dialog there is an option called "Prevent Errant RECALs". Disabling that option will eliminate the 5 degree limit. However, I recommend that you enable the option again afterwards to prevent any potentially bad plate solves from recalibrating the mount to the wrong position.

Best regards,

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
Sent: Saturday, August 4, 2018 3:27 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: First light with Mach1 - a query



I guess one side question out of my long-winded one that I'd be keen to see if there's an answer to is is there a
way to force the driver (or APCC or whatever) to accept an RCAL it thinks is too far out.

If in future I get into a weird situation where the mount is thinking its pointing somewhere its not, but the PA is
correct, and I trust the plate solve in SGP to do its thing (which I do), then I simply want it to accept what SGP says
without giving an error.

So just a temporary removal of the threshold (how?) or changing that RCAL to SYNC again (how?). What's the
best way using my SGP + AP driver (or APCC) combo?

Thanks,
Paul


Re: First light with Mach1 - a query

Paul
 

I guess one side question out of my long-winded one that I'd be keen to see if there's an answer to is is there a way to force the driver (or APCC or whatever)  to accept an RCAL it thinks is too far out. 

If in future I get into a weird situation where the mount is thinking its pointing somewhere its not, but the PA is correct, and I trust the plate solve in SGP to do its thing (which I do), then I simply want it to accept what SGP says without giving an error.

So just a temporary removal of the threshold (how?) or changing that RCAL to SYNC again (how?). What's the best way using my SGP + AP driver (or APCC) combo?

Thanks,
Paul


Re: PE measurements of our mounts

Cheng-Yang Tan
 

Hi Rolando,
   I'll try what you say and make sure that I know what PEMPro program does inside and out before I redo the measurement. I really don't like screwing up. The only advantage is that I only live about 1 hour from Rockford :)

    I'll post again once I redo the measurement with PE on and off.

 FYI, the mount is beautiful and well worth the wait.


cytan

On Saturday, August 4, 2018, 4:17:16 PM CDT, chris1011@... [ap-gto] wrote:


 

Thanks for responding. The support e-mail will not be answered on the weekends since the office is closed.

Here's the deal: your measurements are probably accurate if you followed the PEMPro Wizard and measured near the celestial equator. When you create that PE curve from 3 or so cycles, check all boxes that have values above 0.1 arc sec and try the different Drift fittings until you get the one that produces the lowest RMS error. That will produce the most accurate PE compensation curve for your controller to play back.

You do not have to have perfect polar alignment to create an accurate PE curve, however ideally there should not be any dangling or dragging cables. You are trying to measure what the mount is actually doing, not what the mount is trying to overcome with respect to outside forces.

Make sure that the axes are well balanced, especially the RA. Also I would do a quick check on the backstop position (the lever that backs off the worm). Make sure that the backstop does not push the mount hard into mesh when you turn the lever fully clockwise into the locked position. The adjustment is real easy to do, it consists of simply loosening 2 little hex head screws, GENTLY pushing the assembly down and tightening the screws. And I mean gently, please.

When you do your PE measurements and create a PE curve, post the results with and without PEM turned on. You should see a complete elimination of 90% of the main periodic error. If the error doubles, then you may need to invert the curve and re-load it into the mount (it's happened to me once). PEMPro is a very powerful program that can really supercharge your mount. When you guide, make sure the PEM is turned on , Keypad is set to playback mode, so that every time you start the mount the keypad will automatically start the PE corrections. DO NOT set the keypad to Record mode, else it will overwrite and erase the PE curve and you will probably record junk moves as you move the mount around.

It's a good idea to save your PEMPro curves on your computer so that you can re-load them into your mount if you ever accidentally erase them from the mount memory.

Finally, a 1 arc second movement on a 6" gearwheel periphery amounts to about 1/2 the wavelength of light, a distance so small that you cannot resolve it in any normal microscope at any power. And naturally you want the mount to follow movements of a small fraction of that, like be accurate to 0.2 - 0.5 arc seconds over half an hour's time?

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Cheng-Yang Tan cytan299@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto ; george
Sent: Sat, Aug 4, 2018 3:02 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] PE measurements of our mounts



Hi Rolando,
   Thanks for the reply! I did send in an enquiry to your support email :)

   I'll definitely take your advice and start cleaning up the cabling etc and then try again withe PE measurement. Also, a reader of the cloudynights forum (rockstarbill) noticed that my PA is poor as well. I didn't notice it because PoleMaster had done a great job on my previous cem60 but not so well last night. Also the measurements were done with the main camera and not the guide camera.

  Anyhow, even without any PE correction, the PE is nice and smooth and should be easily correctable via guiding. 

  Anyway, thanks for pointing out all my errors. You know, those newbies must give you sleepless nights and that's why you stay up to do astrophotography :)

cytan

On Saturday, August 4, 2018, 12:27:45 PM CDT, chris1011@... [ap-gto] gto@...> wrote:


 
Howdy All,

I recently became aware of a post on Cloudy Nights from one of our customers who received his Mach1 and loaded up his gear on it and proceeded to measure the periodic error using PEMPro. Here are the postings:


The results he got appeared to be a bit out of spec so of course he will contact us and will want to know what is going on, etc.

I have been doing a number of tests out in my observatory on Mach1 and 1100 mounts and find that the PEMPro runs outside sometimes are a bit different than what we measured inside on the test setup. The difference is typically only a couple of arc seconds, so it's not like a huge error. When we test the mounts inside, we run the axes at sidereal rate and compare the output to a very precise encoder system on our test setup that is accurate to 1/10 arc second. We run the RA axis without the typical scopes and counterweights because we have no idea how the mounts will be loaded, dangling cables, etc. Therefore it is quite possible that the PE can change somewhat depending how the mount is loaded, and that is something we cannot anticipate.

You should be able to run the mount and guide quite accurately with this factory curve, even if it is slightly off so no need to obsess about getting the PE down to zero in any event.

However, if you are absolutely wanting perfection, and thus want to have a very accurate PE curve in your mount, that you measure it with PEMPro with the mount fully loaded with your scopes and other equipment. Then create a PE curve and load it into the mount. When creating the PE curve, check all boxes that have values above 0.1 arc sec and try the different Drift fittings until you get the one that produces the lowest RMS error. That will produce the most accurate PE compensation curve for your controller to play back.

Note also that in the measurement that the customer on CN did, that the 3 runs lie right on top of each other, which indicates that there is no "drifting harmonic" that marches thru each run in a different place and that cannot be compensated for as is the case for a competing mount described here in Post#6:

Even if the mount measures slightly out of spec, PEMPro will get it down to the 1 arc second level if your measurements are good. You don't need a night of perfect seeing, but I do recommend doing the measurements with your main scope NOT with your 50mm guider that has an accuracy of 5 arc sec per pixel and a cheap achromat for a lens. The worse your pixel/arc sec. scaling is, the less accurate your results will be. And DO NOT place your guide scope on top of the rings if you expect your images to not trail! The only way a guide scope will have any chance is to mount it directly to the focuser of the imaging camera - anywhere else and you WILL have differential flex and trailed images.

The customer setup in the above CN posts shows everything wrong that you could possibly do to a setup, including dangling cables, way too many of them and way too much stuff attached to the setup.

Rolando






Re: PE measurements of our mounts

Roland Christen
 

Thanks for responding. The support e-mail will not be answered on the weekends since the office is closed.

Here's the deal: your measurements are probably accurate if you followed the PEMPro Wizard and measured near the celestial equator. When you create that PE curve from 3 or so cycles, check all boxes that have values above 0.1 arc sec and try the different Drift fittings until you get the one that produces the lowest RMS error. That will produce the most accurate PE compensation curve for your controller to play back.

You do not have to have perfect polar alignment to create an accurate PE curve, however ideally there should not be any dangling or dragging cables. You are trying to measure what the mount is actually doing, not what the mount is trying to overcome with respect to outside forces.

Make sure that the axes are well balanced, especially the RA. Also I would do a quick check on the backstop position (the lever that backs off the worm). Make sure that the backstop does not push the mount hard into mesh when you turn the lever fully clockwise into the locked position. The adjustment is real easy to do, it consists of simply loosening 2 little hex head screws, GENTLY pushing the assembly down and tightening the screws. And I mean gently, please.

When you do your PE measurements and create a PE curve, post the results with and without PEM turned on. You should see a complete elimination of 90% of the main periodic error. If the error doubles, then you may need to invert the curve and re-load it into the mount (it's happened to me once). PEMPro is a very powerful program that can really supercharge your mount. When you guide, make sure the PEM is turned on , Keypad is set to playback mode, so that every time you start the mount the keypad will automatically start the PE corrections. DO NOT set the keypad to Record mode, else it will overwrite and erase the PE curve and you will probably record junk moves as you move the mount around.

It's a good idea to save your PEMPro curves on your computer so that you can re-load them into your mount if you ever accidentally erase them from the mount memory.

Finally, a 1 arc second movement on a 6" gearwheel periphery amounts to about 1/2 the wavelength of light, a distance so small that you cannot resolve it in any normal microscope at any power. And naturally you want the mount to follow movements of a small fraction of that, like be accurate to 0.2 - 0.5 arc seconds over half an hour's time?

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Cheng-Yang Tan cytan299@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...>
To: ap-gto ; george ; howard
Sent: Sat, Aug 4, 2018 3:02 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] PE measurements of our mounts



Hi Rolando,
   Thanks for the reply! I did send in an enquiry to your support email :)

   I'll definitely take your advice and start cleaning up the cabling etc and then try again withe PE measurement. Also, a reader of the cloudynights forum (rockstarbill) noticed that my PA is poor as well. I didn't notice it because PoleMaster had done a great job on my previous cem60 but not so well last night. Also the measurements were done with the main camera and not the guide camera.

  Anyhow, even without any PE correction, the PE is nice and smooth and should be easily correctable via guiding. 

  Anyway, thanks for pointing out all my errors. You know, those newbies must give you sleepless nights and that's why you stay up to do astrophotography :)

cytan

On Saturday, August 4, 2018, 12:27:45 PM CDT, chris1011@... [ap-gto] gto@...> wrote:


 
Howdy All,

I recently became aware of a post on Cloudy Nights from one of our customers who received his Mach1 and loaded up his gear on it and proceeded to measure the periodic error using PEMPro. Here are the postings:


The results he got appeared to be a bit out of spec so of course he will contact us and will want to know what is going on, etc.

I have been doing a number of tests out in my observatory on Mach1 and 1100 mounts and find that the PEMPro runs outside sometimes are a bit different than what we measured inside on the test setup. The difference is typically only a couple of arc seconds, so it's not like a huge error. When we test the mounts inside, we run the axes at sidereal rate and compare the output to a very precise encoder system on our test setup that is accurate to 1/10 arc second. We run the RA axis without the typical scopes and counterweights because we have no idea how the mounts will be loaded, dangling cables, etc. Therefore it is quite possible that the PE can change somewhat depending how the mount is loaded, and that is something we cannot anticipate.

You should be able to run the mount and guide quite accurately with this factory curve, even if it is slightly off so no need to obsess about getting the PE down to zero in any event.

However, if you are absolutely wanting perfection, and thus want to have a very accurate PE curve in your mount, that you measure it with PEMPro with the mount fully loaded with your scopes and other equipment. Then create a PE curve and load it into the mount. When creating the PE curve, check all boxes that have values above 0.1 arc sec and try the different Drift fittings until you get the one that produces the lowest RMS error. That will produce the most accurate PE compensation curve for your controller to play back.

Note also that in the measurement that the customer on CN did, that the 3 runs lie right on top of each other, which indicates that there is no "drifting harmonic" that marches thru each run in a different place and that cannot be compensated for as is the case for a competing mount described here in Post#6:

Even if the mount measures slightly out of spec, PEMPro will get it down to the 1 arc second level if your measurements are good. You don't need a night of perfect seeing, but I do recommend doing the measurements with your main scope NOT with your 50mm guider that has an accuracy of 5 arc sec per pixel and a cheap achromat for a lens. The worse your pixel/arc sec. scaling is, the less accurate your results will be. And DO NOT place your guide scope on top of the rings if you expect your images to not trail! The only way a guide scope will have any chance is to mount it directly to the focuser of the imaging camera - anywhere else and you WILL have differential flex and trailed images.

The customer setup in the above CN posts shows everything wrong that you could possibly do to a setup, including dangling cables, way too many of them and way too much stuff attached to the setup.

Rolando






Re: PE measurements of our mounts

Cheng-Yang Tan
 

Hi Rolando,
   Thanks for the reply! I did send in an enquiry to your support email :)

   I'll definitely take your advice and start cleaning up the cabling etc and then try again withe PE measurement. Also, a reader of the cloudynights forum (rockstarbill) noticed that my PA is poor as well. I didn't notice it because PoleMaster had done a great job on my previous cem60 but not so well last night. Also the measurements were done with the main camera and not the guide camera.

  Anyhow, even without any PE correction, the PE is nice and smooth and should be easily correctable via guiding. 

  Anyway, thanks for pointing out all my errors. You know, those newbies must give you sleepless nights and that's why you stay up to do astrophotography :)

cytan

On Saturday, August 4, 2018, 12:27:45 PM CDT, chris1011@... [ap-gto] wrote:


 

Howdy All,

I recently became aware of a post on Cloudy Nights from one of our customers who received his Mach1 and loaded up his gear on it and proceeded to measure the periodic error using PEMPro. Here are the postings:

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/628215-mach1gto-july-2018-batch-pempro-pec-phd2-guide-results/

The results he got appeared to be a bit out of spec so of course he will contact us and will want to know what is going on, etc.

I have been doing a number of tests out in my observatory on Mach1 and 1100 mounts and find that the PEMPro runs outside sometimes are a bit different than what we measured inside on the test setup. The difference is typically only a couple of arc seconds, so it's not like a huge error. When we test the mounts inside, we run the axes at sidereal rate and compare the output to a very precise encoder system on our test setup that is accurate to 1/10 arc second. We run the RA axis without the typical scopes and counterweights because we have no idea how the mounts will be loaded, dangling cables, etc. Therefore it is quite possible that the PE can change somewhat depending how the mount is loaded, and that is something we cannot anticipate.

You should be able to run the mount and guide quite accurately with this factory curve, even if it is slightly off so no need to obsess about getting the PE down to zero in any event.

However, if you are absolutely wanting perfection, and thus want to have a very accurate PE curve in your mount, that you measure it with PEMPro with the mount fully loaded with your scopes and other equipment. Then create a PE curve and load it into the mount. When creating the PE curve, check all boxes that have values above 0.1 arc sec and try the different Drift fittings until you get the one that produces the lowest RMS error. That will produce the most accurate PE compensation curve for your controller to play back.

Note also that in the measurement that the customer on CN did, that the 3 runs lie right on top of each other, which indicates that there is no "drifting harmonic" that marches thru each run in a different place and that cannot be compensated for as is the case for a competing mount described here in Post#6:
https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/526650-pec-on-a-cem60-fail-advice-needed/?p=7038597

Even if the mount measures slightly out of spec, PEMPro will get it down to the 1 arc second level if your measurements are good. You don't need a night of perfect seeing, but I do recommend doing the measurements with your main scope NOT with your 50mm guider that has an accuracy of 5 arc sec per pixel and a cheap achromat for a lens. The worse your pixel/arc sec. scaling is, the less accurate your results will be. And DO NOT place your guide scope on top of the rings if you expect your images to not trail! The only way a guide scope will have any chance is to mount it directly to the focuser of the imaging camera - anywhere else and you WILL have differential flex and trailed images.

The customer setup in the above CN posts shows everything wrong that you could possibly do to a setup, including dangling cables, way too many of them and way too much stuff attached to the setup.

Rolando