Date   

Re: Recommended lubricant

Roland Christen
 

We haven't tried it. Can't say one way or other.

Roland



-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Barton andrewb@... [ap-gto] To: ap-gto
Sent: Thu, Sep 21, 2017 4:28 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Recommended lubricant



How about Super Lube grease? It’s PTFE / Teflon based, not messy, and has a very wide operating temperature: -45F to 450F. 
-- 
Andrew Barton 


On Sep 21, 2017, at 11:09 AM, chris1011@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...> wrote:

Yes, at one time we did use Lubriplate since that seemed to satisfy the lubrication needs of our mounts. This goes back to the QMD mounts that went only as fast as 16x and did not have wear issues. It also worked for customers in very cold climates where a heavier grease caused slewing issues.

As we (and other mount manufacturers) had more experience with GoTo users, we started using the Nye greases. We also tried Aeroshell, but it has a downside for those who have to work with it every day. It stains everything it touches. Both types of grease work for worm gears that are slewed a lot. 

We consulted with lubrication engineers and specialists who recommended that we add some teflon grease to our mix for added protection. We also have an on-going program to test and evaluate worm materials to reduce wear in mounts that see a lot of heavy use, such as remote observatory setups that slew to a number of objects every night. I believe we have a good combination of worm material and grease that stands up to extreme use conditions and will give a lifetime of service. 

Roland Christen
Astro-Physics Inc.



-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Ayiomamitis ayiomami@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...>
To: ap-gto <ap-gto@...>
Sent: Thu, Sep 21, 2017 12:20 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Recommended lubricant



Well, I will state the following: I am delighted with my AP1200/CP3 right now as much as I was the first night out back in 2006 when it arrived. It is no coincidence that I have not upgraded to the 1600 since I have nothing to gain.
However, I would like to know if I should still be using Lubriplate 105 in the event I am passively damaging the worm gears where the oil is too thin and eventually gets pushed aside.
Anthony.

On 21-Sep-17 20:12, calypte@... [ap-gto] wrote:
 
Anthony, you've been using Lubriplate 105 all these years -- correct?  Are you satisfied with the results?








Re: Recommended lubricant

Andrew Barton
 

How about Super Lube grease? It’s PTFE / Teflon based, not messy, and has a very wide operating temperature: -45F to 450F. 
-- 
Andrew Barton 


On Sep 21, 2017, at 11:09 AM, chris1011@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...> wrote:

Yes, at one time we did use Lubriplate since that seemed to satisfy the lubrication needs of our mounts. This goes back to the QMD mounts that went only as fast as 16x and did not have wear issues. It also worked for customers in very cold climates where a heavier grease caused slewing issues.

As we (and other mount manufacturers) had more experience with GoTo users, we started using the Nye greases. We also tried Aeroshell, but it has a downside for those who have to work with it every day. It stains everything it touches. Both types of grease work for worm gears that are slewed a lot. 

We consulted with lubrication engineers and specialists who recommended that we add some teflon grease to our mix for added protection. We also have an on-going program to test and evaluate worm materials to reduce wear in mounts that see a lot of heavy use, such as remote observatory setups that slew to a number of objects every night. I believe we have a good combination of worm material and grease that stands up to extreme use conditions and will give a lifetime of service. 

Roland Christen
Astro-Physics Inc.




-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Ayiomamitis ayiomami@... [ap-gto] <ap-gto@...>
To: ap-gto <ap-gto@...>
Sent: Thu, Sep 21, 2017 12:20 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Recommended lubricant



Well, I will state the following: I am delighted with my AP1200/CP3 right now as much as I was the first night out back in 2006 when it arrived. It is no coincidence that I have not upgraded to the 1600 since I have nothing to gain.
However, I would like to know if I should still be using Lubriplate 105 in the event I am passively damaging the worm gears where the oil is too thin and eventually gets pushed aside.
Anthony.

On 21-Sep-17 20:12, calypte@... [ap-gto] wrote:
 
Anthony, you've been using Lubriplate 105 all these years -- correct?  Are you satisfied with the results?






Re: Recommended lubricant

Roland Christen
 

Yes, at one time we did use Lubriplate since that seemed to satisfy the lubrication needs of our mounts. This goes back to the QMD mounts that went only as fast as 16x and did not have wear issues. It also worked for customers in very cold climates where a heavier grease caused slewing issues.

As we (and other mount manufacturers) had more experience with GoTo users, we started using the Nye greases. We also tried Aeroshell, but it has a downside for those who have to work with it every day. It stains everything it touches. Both types of grease work for worm gears that are slewed a lot.

We consulted with lubrication engineers and specialists who recommended that we add some teflon grease to our mix for added protection. We also have an on-going program to test and evaluate worm materials to reduce wear in mounts that see a lot of heavy use, such as remote observatory setups that slew to a number of objects every night. I believe we have a good combination of worm material and grease that stands up to extreme use conditions and will give a lifetime of service.

Roland Christen
Astro-Physics Inc.



-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Ayiomamitis ayiomami@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto
Sent: Thu, Sep 21, 2017 12:20 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Recommended lubricant



Well, I will state the following: I am delighted with my AP1200/CP3 right now as much as I was the first night out back in 2006 when it arrived. It is no coincidence that I have not upgraded to the 1600 since I have nothing to gain.
However, I would like to know if I should still be using Lubriplate 105 in the event I am passively damaging the worm gears where the oil is too thin and eventually gets pushed aside.
Anthony.

On 21-Sep-17 20:12, calypte@... [ap-gto] wrote:
 
Anthony, you've been using Lubriplate 105 all these years -- correct?  Are you satisfied with the results?




Re: Recommended lubricant

Joe Zeglinski
 

    Don’t they just hate it when their automatic rifle (AR-15) jams as the SWAT team shows up  to confront them :-)
 
    Anyway, I commend your decision – AeroShell 33MS will give you peace of mind for using the very best possible lube there is for extremely low ... AND ALSO for extremely HIGH  temperatures, even in (daytime closed observatories) in Auz or Arizona.
 
    Thanks to Rolando for originally investigating and making the latest grease recommendation
 
Joe
 

From: calypte@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2017 12:52 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Recommended lubricant
 


"I suspect somebody on the web is “repackaging” their “expired tubes” of grease into tiny amount squeeze tubes, at higher prices. Cost them nothing for expired grease, and a fortune to be made for very little labour. "

Perhaps.  But my mount doesn't have to pass an FAA inspection.  I don't want oval stars, but nobody dies if I get them.  The Aeroshell 33MS I'm finding on Amazon in small containers is being marketed to gun owners and builders.  Apparently it's particularly good for AR-15s.  Maybe someone here has experience with Aeroshell 33MS in that application, and maybe they can explain if and why expired lubricant is acceptable. 

As for the Nyogel 788, I have a query out to TAI Lubricants.  I discovered that Nye Lubricants' western office is in nearby Oceanside.  They have a "Pail, Case, or $500 minimum order policy."  Nye's rep in Oceanside directed me to TAI.  But TAI's website doesn't show 788.  Maybe I'm just not seeing it.   We'll see what they say. 

Prediction: by the end of the day, I'll have ordered the Aeroshell.


Re: Recommended lubricant

ayiomamitis
 

Well, I will state the following: I am delighted with my AP1200/CP3 right now as much as I was the first night out back in 2006 when it arrived. It is no coincidence that I have not upgraded to the 1600 since I have nothing to gain.

However, I would like to know if I should still be using Lubriplate 105 in the event I am passively damaging the worm gears where the oil is too thin and eventually gets pushed aside.

Anthony.


On 21-Sep-17 20:12, calypte@... [ap-gto] wrote:
 

Anthony, you've been using Lubriplate 105 all these years -- correct?  Are you satisfied with the results?



Re: Recommended lubricant

calypte@...
 

Anthony, you've been using Lubriplate 105 all these years -- correct?  Are you satisfied with the results?


Re: Recommended lubricant

ayiomamitis
 

Rolando et al,

I went and checked the group's archives and the discussion which led to my purchase of Lubriplate 105 goes back to 2010.

Anyway, here is Rolando recommending Lubriplate 105 back from 2005: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ap-gto/conversations/messages/12858 . Also, we have from 2010 the following: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ap-gto/conversations/messages/27099 .

Anthony.


On 21-Sep-17 19:53, Anthony Ayiomamitis wrote:

Rolando,

I just went upstairs and checked so as to be precise from my side. The lubricant I have is Lubriplate 105 and where I picked up 2 tubes a number of years ago on the basis of the discussion in this group. Is this lubricant still current in relation to the needs of the gears and as described below? Your latter statement below about pushing away the lubricating oil and which is too thin anyway suggests that what was recommended back then is no longer applicable. Oui?

Anthony.


On 21-Sep-17 18:11, chris1011@... [ap-gto] wrote:
 

Before GoTo the gears of an equatorial mount did not move much in Dec and only moved very slowly at the sidereal rate in RA. Once GoTo was fully developed with >1000X sidereal rate in both axes, the worm gears were now subject to a lot of rubbing wear, so it became critical to reduce friction and wear on the teeth. In industrial gearboxes a worm gear is usually submerged in oil so that there is never metal to metal contact - a film of oil prevents that. That is hardly possible in an amateur mount, so the next best thing is to add grease to the worm. The grease naturally gets pushed off by the sideways motion of the worm gear teeth, so this grease must have some stickiness to it.

 Lubriplate was developed for piston insertion and was intended to wash away when the lubricating oil hits it. It is too thin and does not really stick to the gear teeth of a worm drive. Thus the use of specially developed worm gear grease.

Rolando




-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Ayiomamitis ayiomami@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto
Sent: Wed, Sep 20, 2017 9:39 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Recommended lubricant



I am also starting to wonder and worry. I bought two tubes of Lubriplate 50 or something similar and which was/is used for auto transmissions when they are first started up. All of these changes and evolution history begs the question as to what is changing so quickly to warrant these frequent migrations to new lubricants and exotic mixes.
Anthony.

Στις 9/21/2017 03:03, ο calypte@... [ap-gto] έγραψε:
 
Rolando, what lubricant was used on my mount when it was shipped in Feb 2010?  Nye Lubricants appears to be set up for industrial customers, not end users.  I had to register on their website (still waiting for approval), and they demanded to know my "company."  Maybe I should have used the name of my observatory to make it look official.  Also, I'm a bit apprehensive about ordering multiple lubricants to mix the cocktail that you now use on the mounts.






Re: Recommended lubricant

calypte@...
 

I checked my Gmail account, and I already have an answer from TAI.  If I want 1 ea 100 gram tube of Nyogel 788, it's gonna cost me $89.95.  If I'm willing to buy 12 ea 100 gram tubes, then the price drops to $59.95 per tube.  Such a deal!  There's also pricing in 500 gram jars.


Re: Recommended lubricant

ayiomamitis
 

Rolando,

I just went upstairs and checked so as to be precise from my side. The lubricant I have is Lubriplate 105 and where I picked up 2 tubes a number of years ago on the basis of the discussion in this group. Is this lubricant still current in relation to the needs of the gears and as described below? Your latter statement below about pushing away the lubricating oil and which is too thin anyway suggests that what was recommended back then is no longer applicable. Oui?

Anthony.


On 21-Sep-17 18:11, chris1011@... [ap-gto] wrote:
 

Before GoTo the gears of an equatorial mount did not move much in Dec and only moved very slowly at the sidereal rate in RA. Once GoTo was fully developed with >1000X sidereal rate in both axes, the worm gears were now subject to a lot of rubbing wear, so it became critical to reduce friction and wear on the teeth. In industrial gearboxes a worm gear is usually submerged in oil so that there is never metal to metal contact - a film of oil prevents that. That is hardly possible in an amateur mount, so the next best thing is to add grease to the worm. The grease naturally gets pushed off by the sideways motion of the worm gear teeth, so this grease must have some stickiness to it.

 Lubriplate was developed for piston insertion and was intended to wash away when the lubricating oil hits it. It is too thin and does not really stick to the gear teeth of a worm drive. Thus the use of specially developed worm gear grease.

Rolando




-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Ayiomamitis ayiomami@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto
Sent: Wed, Sep 20, 2017 9:39 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Recommended lubricant



I am also starting to wonder and worry. I bought two tubes of Lubriplate 50 or something similar and which was/is used for auto transmissions when they are first started up. All of these changes and evolution history begs the question as to what is changing so quickly to warrant these frequent migrations to new lubricants and exotic mixes.
Anthony.

Στις 9/21/2017 03:03, ο calypte@... [ap-gto] έγραψε:
 
Rolando, what lubricant was used on my mount when it was shipped in Feb 2010?  Nye Lubricants appears to be set up for industrial customers, not end users.  I had to register on their website (still waiting for approval), and they demanded to know my "company."  Maybe I should have used the name of my observatory to make it look official.  Also, I'm a bit apprehensive about ordering multiple lubricants to mix the cocktail that you now use on the mounts.





Re: Recommended lubricant

calypte@...
 

"I suspect somebody on the web is “repackaging” their “expired tubes” of grease into tiny amount squeeze tubes, at higher prices. Cost them nothing for expired grease, and a fortune to be made for very little labour. "

Perhaps.  But my mount doesn't have to pass an FAA inspection.  I don't want oval stars, but nobody dies if I get them.  The Aeroshell 33MS I'm finding on Amazon in small containers is being marketed to gun owners and builders.  Apparently it's particularly good for AR-15s.  Maybe someone here has experience with Aeroshell 33MS in that application, and maybe they can explain if and why expired lubricant is acceptable.  

As for the Nyogel 788, I have a query out to TAI Lubricants.  I discovered that Nye Lubricants' western office is in nearby Oceanside.  They have a "Pail, Case, or $500 minimum order policy."  Nye's rep in Oceanside directed me to TAI.  But TAI's website doesn't show 788.  Maybe I'm just not seeing it.   We'll see what they say.  

Prediction: by the end of the day, I'll have ordered the Aeroshell.


Re: Recommended lubricant

D Sidote <dsidote@...>
 

Since the recommended Nyogel lubricant isn’t readily available to individuals, would AP consider selling it to mount owners so we can continue to get the same protection/performance the mount receives when assembled at AP?


Re: Recommended lubricant

Joe Zeglinski
 

Rolando,
 
    Have you ever tried stirring molasses – grease is worse.
 
    After even the 4 years expiry, NOT worth the effort and mess of  $20 for a “calking tube” sized amount of 33MS. Just buy another one – or  a smaller size if you can find it - (although Shell said this tube was the smallest container, only comes in barrels after that). I couldn’t find an alternate, at the time, and I suspect somebody on the web is “repackaging” their “expired tubes” of grease into tiny amount squeeze tubes, at higher prices. Cost them nothing for expired grease, and a fortune to be made for very little labour. I wouldn’t buy AeroShell 33MS ...  except from an aircraft supplies  service company, or a SHELL authorized distributer. However, I was told by their disti, in Canada, that they don’t sell direct to the public. Besides, you would have to buy a skid-full of product. The “supplies service”  companies are the best bet for a tube off the shelf, especially if you tell the clerk it is for a telescope hobby.
 
    According to tech support at SHELL Lubricants division, it isn’t just a matter of the oil separating, but IIRC, he said the binding elements (Teflon, etc.) break down – so no mechanical mixing will help. If you think about it, as aircraft landing wheel worms continue to be in contact, mixing the grease on them on several flights a day, it is constantly “being stirred on the gear surfaces – or even fed from a reservoir”, and yet it separates after 4 years. Of course, the aircraft techs clean off and regrease critical aircraft parts, more often than we do our own  mounts.
 
Nuff said.
Joe
 

From: chris1011@... [ap-gto]
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 10:19 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Recommended lubricant
 


It's easy to extend the "best before" time. Just stir the oil back in if it has separated. The oil is what gives the grease its lube quality. The thickener is just that - thickener.

Rolando
 


Re: Recommended lubricant

Roland Christen
 

Before GoTo the gears of an equatorial mount did not move much in Dec and only moved very slowly at the sidereal rate in RA. Once GoTo was fully developed with >1000X sidereal rate in both axes, the worm gears were now subject to a lot of rubbing wear, so it became critical to reduce friction and wear on the teeth. In industrial gearboxes a worm gear is usually submerged in oil so that there is never metal to metal contact - a film of oil prevents that. That is hardly possible in an amateur mount, so the next best thing is to add grease to the worm. The grease naturally gets pushed off by the sideways motion of the worm gear teeth, so this grease must have some stickiness to it.

 Lubriplate was developed for piston insertion and was intended to wash away when the lubricating oil hits it. It is too thin and does not really stick to the gear teeth of a worm drive. Thus the use of specially developed worm gear grease.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Ayiomamitis ayiomami@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto Sent: Wed, Sep 20, 2017 9:39 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Recommended lubricant



I am also starting to wonder and worry. I bought two tubes of Lubriplate 50 or something similar and which was/is used for auto transmissions when they are first started up. All of these changes and evolution history begs the question as to what is changing so quickly to warrant these frequent migrations to new lubricants and exotic mixes.
Anthony.

Στις 9/21/2017 03:03, ο calypte@... [ap-gto] έγραψε:
 
Rolando, what lubricant was used on my mount when it was shipped in Feb 2010?  Nye Lubricants appears to be set up for industrial customers, not end users.  I had to register on their website (still waiting for approval), and they demanded to know my "company."  Maybe I should have used the name of my observatory to make it look official.  Also, I'm a bit apprehensive about ordering multiple lubricants to mix the cocktail that you now use on the mounts.




Re: Any astrophotography specialist in NY area? [Mach1GTO / Stellarvue 80mm]

Camila Pastorelli
 

Hi guys,

We are still trying to find someone in New York (and it's better in New York City) this week/next week who can help Andre to set up the equipment, specially the Mach1. Any suggestions of people or someone who we can ask the same question?

Thank you!



Re: Recommended lubricant

calypte@...
 

"Back then we used 788 with a bit of 795 mixed in."

So, even then, it was a bit of a cocktail.  

I asked a question about lubricants.  You gave A-P's best current recommendation.  I have my answer.  Thank you.  


Re: Recommended lubricant

Mike Shade
 

I would think the Aeroshell would most likely be fine. WE had a heck of a monsoon this year, 12.62" of rain since June 1...



Mike J. Shade: mshade@q.com

Mike J. Shade Photography:

mshadephotography.com



In War: Resolution

In Defeat: Defiance

In Victory: Magnanimity

In Peace: Goodwill

Sir Winston Churchill

Already, in the gathering dusk, a few of the stars are turning on their lights.

Vega, the brightest one, is now dropping towards the west. Can it be half

a year since I watched her April rising in the east? Low in the southwest

Antares blinks a sad farwell to fall...

Leslie Peltier, Starlight Nights



International Dark Sky Association: <http://www.darksky.org/> www.darksky.org



From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 8:02 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Recommended lubricant





"I use and have used Aeroshell for a few years...in SE AZ, elevation 5000...100 in summer, 20s in winter-or occasionally colder...AP1600/AP1200/AP Mach1...seems to make everyone happy."



SE AZ has a similar climate to mine. We even get the monsoon at times.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Recommended lubricant

calypte@...
 

"I use and have used Aeroshell for a few years...in SE AZ, elevation 5000...100 in summer, 20s in winter-or occasionally colder...AP1600/AP1200/AP Mach1...seems to make everyone happy."

SE AZ has a similar climate to mine.  We even get the monsoon at times.


Re: Recommended lubricant

calypte@...
 

" The other problem in buying it online, is that it “CANNOT BE SHIPPED” by air, (I asked),  so delivery may be a problem."  

I wonder then about the guys who are selling it on Amazon in small containers for firearm maintenance.


Re: Recommended lubricant

Roland Christen
 

It's easy to extend the "best before" time. Just stir the oil back in if it has separated. The oil is what gives the grease its lube quality. The thickener is just that - thickener.

Rolando



-----Original Message-----
From: 'Joseph Zeglinski' J.Zeglinski@... [ap-gto]
To: ap-gto
Sent: Wed, Sep 20, 2017 8:35 pm
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Recommended lubricant



    The AeroShell 33MS is the recommended grease for “airplane service mechanics” almost exclusively at all airports, to use on landing gear parts.
One reason is of course the extreme cold the grease needs to survive at high altitudes, but the other reason SHELL developed it  was to handle the severe torques involved in raising and lowering the plane’s massive landing gear, not to mention the sudden jolt on touchdown.
 
    These exceptional conditions is what makes the 33MS a terrific grease for our mounts – under just about any bad conditions. Visit the SHELL website and learn stuff about why it is recommended by the Pro’s in the flying business.
 
    However, if you were to follow FAA protocol, each  grease container has to be “dated” – there is a best-before date, when the oil separates from the grease. Regulations requiring it to be no more than 4 years after production for airplane use – I don’t think scope mounts need to do likewise. So, no use buying too much and then having to dispose of it,  safely.
 
    The other problem in buying it online, is that it “CANNOT BE SHIPPED” by air, (I asked),  so delivery may be a problem.
I got a grease-gun sized tube by visiting the local “airport-row”, and found a  “airline mechanics supplies” company who sold be a grease-gun sized cartridge for $20 ... and he also wrote the remaining lifetime  on it, since it was one tube from a case of tubes, and only the outside of the case is dated. So he (legally) wrote the remaining lifetime on it, before handing it to me. They are EXTREMELY cautious - FAA Rules -  about the quality of airplane grease – which is reassuring.
 
Joe



Re: Recommended lubricant

Joe Zeglinski
 

    The AeroShell 33MS is the recommended grease for “airplane service mechanics” almost exclusively at all airports, to use on landing gear parts.
One reason is of course the extreme cold the grease needs to survive at high altitudes, but the other reason SHELL developed it  was to handle the severe torques involved in raising and lowering the plane’s massive landing gear, not to mention the sudden jolt on touchdown.
 
    These exceptional conditions is what makes the 33MS a terrific grease for our mounts – under just about any bad conditions. Visit the SHELL website and learn stuff about why it is recommended by the Pro’s in the flying business.
 
    However, if you were to follow FAA protocol, each  grease container has to be “dated” – there is a best-before date, when the oil separates from the grease. Regulations requiring it to be no more than 4 years after production for airplane use – I don’t think scope mounts need to do likewise. So, no use buying too much and then having to dispose of it,  safely.
 
    The other problem in buying it online, is that it “CANNOT BE SHIPPED” by air, (I asked),  so delivery may be a problem.
I got a grease-gun sized tube by visiting the local “airport-row”, and found a  “airline mechanics supplies” company who sold be a grease-gun sized cartridge for $20 ... and he also wrote the remaining lifetime  on it, since it was one tube from a case of tubes, and only the outside of the case is dated. So he (legally) wrote the remaining lifetime on it, before handing it to me. They are EXTREMELY cautious - FAA Rules -  about the quality of airplane grease – which is reassuring.
 
Joe