Date   

Re: Confusion After Installing the "S" Chip

Hank Sielski
 

Hi Ray,

So for now, it sounds like the only PEM recourse after upgrading to the new
chip is to redo the PEC curve with PEMPro.

Will the Worm Index value be one of the things that APCC can capture from
the mount in the future?

Thanks for the clarification,

Hank

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 6:30 PM, Ray Gralak <groups1@gralak.com> wrote:

**


Hank,


Its been awhile, but I thought I remember Ray telling me that you can use
PemPro to download the curve thats loaded in the mount and save it on
your
PC, for just such an occasion. Then I believe you can restore it to the
mount with the new chip installed without having to re-do it.
You can do that but the problem is that I believe the worm's index value
is lost in the upgrade and this cannot be
restored.

-Ray Gralak
Author of Astro-Physics Command Center (APCC)
Author of PEMPro: http://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: http://www.gralak.com/apdriver
Author of PulseGuide: http://www.pulseguide.com
Author of Sigma: http://www.gralak.com/sigma


-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ap-gto@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Hank Sielski
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 4:28 PM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Confusion After Installing the "S" Chip



Gerald,

Its been awhile, but I thought I remember Ray telling me that you can use
PemPro to download the curve thats loaded in the mount and save it on
your
PC, for just such an occasion. Then I believe you can restore it to the
mount with the new chip installed without having to re-do it.

At least it wouldn't hurt to try to back up the old curve before you
remove
the chip.

Maybe Ray can remind us...

OTOH, if its been some time since its been updated, then maybe you want
to
do another.

Good luck with your upgrade.

Hank

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:09 PM, gmillerok <grmok1@swbell.net <mailto:
grmok1%40swbell.net> > wrote:

**


No. Didn't think of that at the time. I just plan on doing another
Pempro
run.

Gerald


--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> ,
"Larry Phillips" <llp41astro@...> wrote:

Gerald, thanks for the feedback. Was anything said about losing the
PEMPRO input previously saved for Q or earlier?

Larry

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> ,
"gmillerok" <grmok1@> wrote:

After talking to George, I believe this is the case for "Q" chips
and
earlier:

The controller won't be synced to the correct position to the last
location when the mount was powered down. The term "initialization"
simply
means to turn on the keypad and there are three options on powerup
depending on how it was set up before. Autoconnect set to yes, no, or
EXT
as we all are aware.

When referring to "Initialization", this simply means that the
controller needs to know with a sync where the mount is pointed again
as
the last location was not saved after the chip upgrade. So either sync
on a
known star or unpark from Park 1 (option 4) is required. It cannot
resume
from any other park position because it won't know where that location
was
the last time the mount was turned off. Nothing need be done for date,
time, location, etc. is my understanding.

Mine was set on EXT, and when I connected to The SkyXPro, it
seemed to
work normally as it did before as it resumed from Park 1 using ASCOM.
I'm
not sure if that information is sent to the controller by the ASCOM
driver
or the The SkyXPro. Maybe Ray can further explain this option.

But, in any event, there would appear there is nothing you need to
do
beside turn on the mount, and either sync on a star or unpark from
park 1
position, which is what I normally do anyway, and PEM will then have
to be
re-recorded.

That's it.

Gerald

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> ,
"astrokattner" <kattnerk@> wrote:

Check out the link below from their website. It says Q or
earlier.
It also notes that the keypad info will not change so date time
location is
still in there, but that info has to be downloaded to the servo
firmware
for it to be reinitialized into the mount.

http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc

Hope this helps.


--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com>
, "Larry Phillips" <llp41astro@>

wrote:

I had the same experience with my O chip. Also, not sure about
PEC.

Larry

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com>
, "gmillerok" <grmok1@> wrote:

I posted the exact same question. All I can tell you is that
after I replaced the Q chip with the S chip, the GTOCP3 booted up as it
normally would before. Location data, time, date all was as it was
before
the chip upgrade.

Not sure about PEC. That's a bit hard to tell.

Gerald

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com <mailto:
ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> , "Larry Phillips" <llp41astro@>

wrote:

Hello anyone who can help.

I have just received and installed my "S" chip replacing
one
which is version "O".

There seems to be a contradiction in the two instructions
sheets received with the chip. The one titled "Installing New ROM Chip
into
GTO Control Box-Model GTOCP3, Chip Version "R" and later", in the last
paragraph with the subheading titled "After the ROM chip
replacement-Versions "R" and later", it says "If your previous ROM
chip was
version "Q" or earlier, you must perform a full initialization on your
first power-up, and you will also need to redo the mount's PEM. Etc."

In the second sheet titled "Your first observing session"
it
says in the next to last paragraph titled "After a ROM chip
replacement-GTOCP3-Version Q and earlier", "Install your new chip and
proceed normally as if nothing had changed. Etc."

I had the "O" chip, do I need to do an initialization on
first
start up and redo PEM or not?

Larry
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






--
Hank Sielski
Principal Systems Engineer
University of California, Santa Cruz
University-Affiliated Research Center
NASA Ames Research Center
Bldg 210, Room 145, M/S 210-8
Voice: 650-604-5893
Cell: 408-781-1544
Email: henry.sielski@nasa.gov
Email: hsielski@ucsc.edu
Email: hsielski@gmail.com


Re: Field Battery for 1600GTO

Roland Christen
 

The mount uses less than 1 amp when operating normally (typically 500 to 700 milliamps). It would run for many days on a 52 AH battery.

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: ap1600gto <ap1600gto@yahoo.com>
To: ap-gto <ap-gto@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:04 am
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: Field Battery for 1600GTO


Hi Roy,

I will only be using the battery for the mount. My heaters, CCD, laptop, etc
have a separate power supply. Having said that, is 52Ah decent for a few nights
at a time?

Thanks,

Armand

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "roywellington" <roywellington@...> wrote:

Armand,

ANY deep-cycle AGM battery will do.

I wonder if 55Ah will be enough. Mount by itself for one night; yes. I also
have a low power PC (12w), cooled CCD camera (50-60w) and sometimes a dew strip
(maybe 120w) plus other incidentals. I use a 80Ah (mount + PC on a boost
converter) and a 100Ah battery (everything else). I regularly go to 50% depth
of discharge on a normal night. Actually, on a normal night the dew or clouds
roll in. On a clear night, 50%.

Deep-cycle batteries will survive a deep discharge better which is what will
shorten battery life.

Roy

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "ap1600gto" <ap1600gto@> wrote:

I've been searching around for a field battery for my 1600GTO. I've heard
rumors that Optima Bluetops are good, but they are dual purpose: starting and
deep-cycle; the Yellowtops, however, are strictly for deep-cycle applications.
After talking with the owner of a battery shop, he convinced me to purchase a
CSB battery (EVX12520: 12V, 55Ah) instead of Optima (to save some money). He
assured me it's strictly for deep-cycle applications. Has anyone used CSB
batteries before? Any problems? Any joys? Or do I just have to concern myself
with ANY deep-cycle battery?

Thanks,

Armand



------------------------------------

To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-gto list
see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-gtoYahoo! Groups Links


Re: Field Battery for 1600GTO

Armand P
 

Hi Roy,

I will only be using the battery for the mount. My heaters, CCD, laptop, etc have a separate power supply. Having said that, is 52Ah decent for a few nights at a time?

Thanks,

Armand

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "roywellington" <roywellington@...> wrote:

Armand,

ANY deep-cycle AGM battery will do.

I wonder if 55Ah will be enough. Mount by itself for one night; yes. I also have a low power PC (12w), cooled CCD camera (50-60w) and sometimes a dew strip (maybe 120w) plus other incidentals. I use a 80Ah (mount + PC on a boost converter) and a 100Ah battery (everything else). I regularly go to 50% depth of discharge on a normal night. Actually, on a normal night the dew or clouds roll in. On a clear night, 50%.

Deep-cycle batteries will survive a deep discharge better which is what will shorten battery life.

Roy

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "ap1600gto" <ap1600gto@> wrote:

I've been searching around for a field battery for my 1600GTO. I've heard rumors that Optima Bluetops are good, but they are dual purpose: starting and deep-cycle; the Yellowtops, however, are strictly for deep-cycle applications. After talking with the owner of a battery shop, he convinced me to purchase a CSB battery (EVX12520: 12V, 55Ah) instead of Optima (to save some money). He assured me it's strictly for deep-cycle applications. Has anyone used CSB batteries before? Any problems? Any joys? Or do I just have to concern myself with ANY deep-cycle battery?

Thanks,

Armand


Re: S chip and APCC update

turkeybuzzard75
 

Marj, I received my chip today and proceeded to change it. All went well. Now my question. The S chip that I received has a revision date on it of "7/16/12" and the S chip shown in the instruction sheet has a revision date of "11/07/12". My question is has the code already changed, and if so, what are the differences between the two revision dates? Thanks, Thomas
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
From: marj@astro-physics.com
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 06:44:26 +0000
Subject: [ap-gto] S chip and APCC update


























To all,



We are now ready to accept orders for the new "S" version of the EEPROM in the GTOCP3 control box. The price is $80 plus shipping. You must fill out a form that includes the serial number of your mount and GTOCP3 control box. We will also need the e-mail address that you plan to use as your identification for APCC registration. It is important that you fill out your form completely so that we can process all orders efficiently. If we have to contact you for more information, it will slow your order. Please refer to information at this link.



www.astro-physics.com/tech_support/mounts/servo/cp3-chipupgrade.htm<http://www.astro-physics.com/tech_support/mounts/servo/cp3-chipupgrade.htm>



We hope to release APCC Standard version by the first of December and the Pro version shortly after that. The "S" chip must be installed before your download. The price of the standard version is $250, the price of the Pro version has not been established yet. Please refer to this link for information.



www.astro-physics.com/products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc.htm<http://www.astro-physics.com/products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc.htm>



Astro-Physics will be closed for the Thanksgiving holiday on Thursday and Friday of this week. Please be patient regarding shipment of your new chip.



Thank you very much.



Clear Skies!



Marj Christen

Vice President

Astro-Physics, Inc

11250 Forest Hills Road

Machesney Park, IL 61115

Phone: 815-282-1513

Fax: 815-282-9847

www.astro-physics.com

Please include this e-mail with your response.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Solar filters

Alan Pryor
 

Talk to Lunt Solar Systems about a Hydrogen alpha etalon and the blocking filter that must be used with it.
Alan

--- On Tue, 11/27/12, naabimike <naabimike@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: naabimike <naabimike@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ap-gto] Solar filters
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 27, 2012, 3:50 AM

Can anyone lend some knowledge to assist me in choosing a solar filter setup for my A-P 127 Starfire?
I am new to the field and may ask questions that are common to the rest of you.  We all have to start somewhere...  I have been looking at the skies since living in Quartz Hill Ca as a 6th grader (very dark skies then).
I thank you in advance and look forward to hearing from you.

Kind Regards, Jim Hamilton



------------------------------------

To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-gto list
see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-gtoYahoo! Groups Links





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Solar filters

OlivDeso
 

+1 Baader Herschel prism

For imaging, you may add a band pass filter, centered at the best performance wave length of the refractor (i.e. lowest spherical error).
Usually the refractors perform best in the green channel, so the baader continuum filter, which is a narrow band green filter, usually helps on refractors (a little bit on apo refractors, more on achromats).
Not sure at what wavelegnt the 127 is optimized, may be a little bit longer, but the difference should have a marginal effect at the end.
This filter is usefull whatever is the pre-filtering : either the Herschel or the astrosolar. The Herschel is much saffer for public sessions or with children around : if someone removes it it is much less dangerous than if someone removes the astrosolar input filter.


Olivier



________________________________
De : Geert Vandenbulcke (Gmail) <geert.vandenbulcke@gmail.com>
À : ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Envoyé le : Mardi 27 novembre 2012 8h01
Objet : RE: [ap-gto] Solar filters


 
Jim,

The cheapest and good filter is a Baader Astro-Solar filter that is put in
front of the objective. The best but expensive solution is to use a
(Baader) Herschel prism. Both available from Astro-Physics (see products,
solar accessories).

Best regards,

Geert Vandenbulcke

Belgium

Van: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ap-gto@yahoogroups.com] Namens naabimike
Verzonden: dinsdag 27 november 2012 3:51
Aan: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: [ap-gto] Solar filters

Can anyone lend some knowledge to assist me in choosing a solar filter setup
for my A-P 127 Starfire?
I am new to the field and may ask questions that are common to the rest of
you. We all have to start somewhere... I have been looking at the skies
since living in Quartz Hill Ca as a 6th grader (very dark skies then).
I thank you in advance and look forward to hearing from you.

Kind Regards, Jim Hamilton

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Solar filters

Geert
 

Jim,



The cheapest and good filter is a Baader Astro-Solar filter that is put in
front of the objective. The best but expensive solution is to use a
(Baader) Herschel prism. Both available from Astro-Physics (see products,
solar accessories).



Best regards,



Geert Vandenbulcke

Belgium



Van: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ap-gto@yahoogroups.com] Namens naabimike
Verzonden: dinsdag 27 november 2012 3:51
Aan: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: [ap-gto] Solar filters





Can anyone lend some knowledge to assist me in choosing a solar filter setup
for my A-P 127 Starfire?
I am new to the field and may ask questions that are common to the rest of
you. We all have to start somewhere... I have been looking at the skies
since living in Quartz Hill Ca as a 6th grader (very dark skies then).
I thank you in advance and look forward to hearing from you.

Kind Regards, Jim Hamilton


Re: Field Battery for 1600GTO

roywellington
 

Armand,

ANY deep-cycle AGM battery will do.

I wonder if 55Ah will be enough. Mount by itself for one night; yes. I also have a low power PC (12w), cooled CCD camera (50-60w) and sometimes a dew strip (maybe 120w) plus other incidentals. I use a 80Ah (mount + PC on a boost converter) and a 100Ah battery (everything else). I regularly go to 50% depth of discharge on a normal night. Actually, on a normal night the dew or clouds roll in. On a clear night, 50%.

Deep-cycle batteries will survive a deep discharge better which is what will shorten battery life.

Roy

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "ap1600gto" <ap1600gto@...> wrote:

I've been searching around for a field battery for my 1600GTO. I've heard rumors that Optima Bluetops are good, but they are dual purpose: starting and deep-cycle; the Yellowtops, however, are strictly for deep-cycle applications. After talking with the owner of a battery shop, he convinced me to purchase a CSB battery (EVX12520: 12V, 55Ah) instead of Optima (to save some money). He assured me it's strictly for deep-cycle applications. Has anyone used CSB batteries before? Any problems? Any joys? Or do I just have to concern myself with ANY deep-cycle battery?

Thanks,

Armand


Solar filters

naabimike <naabimike@...>
 

Can anyone lend some knowledge to assist me in choosing a solar filter setup for my A-P 127 Starfire?
I am new to the field and may ask questions that are common to the rest of you. We all have to start somewhere... I have been looking at the skies since living in Quartz Hill Ca as a 6th grader (very dark skies then).
I thank you in advance and look forward to hearing from you.

Kind Regards, Jim Hamilton


Re: The Horsehead and the Flame

parijat_singh
 

Stunningly awesome image, Floyd!!

Parijat

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "bakersfieldbiker" <fblue@...> wrote:

http://www.astrophotogallery.org/floyd-s-pics/p10599-horsehead-nebula-bern.html

Here is my latest image from November. This was a target that I avoided due to halos on Alnatak. But after finally getting filters that do not halo (Astrodon Gen2) I was able to capture it.

Hope you like it.

TEC-140 @ f/5.4
ML833
AP-900

22x10 minutes each color RGB & Synthetic Luminance.
Floyd


Re: Confusion After Installing the "S" Chip

Ray Gralak <groups1@...>
 

Hank,

Its been awhile, but I thought I remember Ray telling me that you can use
PemPro to download the curve thats loaded in the mount and save it on your
PC, for just such an occasion. Then I believe you can restore it to the
mount with the new chip installed without having to re-do it.
You can do that but the problem is that I believe the worm's index value is lost in the upgrade and this cannot be
restored.

-Ray Gralak
Author of Astro-Physics Command Center (APCC)
Author of PEMPro: http://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: http://www.gralak.com/apdriver
Author of PulseGuide: http://www.pulseguide.com
Author of Sigma: http://www.gralak.com/sigma


-----Original Message-----
From: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ap-gto@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hank Sielski
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 4:28 PM
To: ap-gto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Re: Confusion After Installing the "S" Chip



Gerald,

Its been awhile, but I thought I remember Ray telling me that you can use
PemPro to download the curve thats loaded in the mount and save it on your
PC, for just such an occasion. Then I believe you can restore it to the
mount with the new chip installed without having to re-do it.

At least it wouldn't hurt to try to back up the old curve before you remove
the chip.

Maybe Ray can remind us...

OTOH, if its been some time since its been updated, then maybe you want to
do another.

Good luck with your upgrade.

Hank

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:09 PM, gmillerok <grmok1@swbell.net <mailto:grmok1%40swbell.net> > wrote:

**


No. Didn't think of that at the time. I just plan on doing another Pempro
run.

Gerald


--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> , "Larry Phillips" <llp41astro@...> wrote:

Gerald, thanks for the feedback. Was anything said about losing the
PEMPRO input previously saved for Q or earlier?

Larry

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> , "gmillerok" <grmok1@> wrote:

After talking to George, I believe this is the case for "Q" chips and
earlier:

The controller won't be synced to the correct position to the last
location when the mount was powered down. The term "initialization" simply
means to turn on the keypad and there are three options on powerup
depending on how it was set up before. Autoconnect set to yes, no, or EXT
as we all are aware.

When referring to "Initialization", this simply means that the
controller needs to know with a sync where the mount is pointed again as
the last location was not saved after the chip upgrade. So either sync on a
known star or unpark from Park 1 (option 4) is required. It cannot resume
from any other park position because it won't know where that location was
the last time the mount was turned off. Nothing need be done for date,
time, location, etc. is my understanding.

Mine was set on EXT, and when I connected to The SkyXPro, it seemed to
work normally as it did before as it resumed from Park 1 using ASCOM. I'm
not sure if that information is sent to the controller by the ASCOM driver
or the The SkyXPro. Maybe Ray can further explain this option.

But, in any event, there would appear there is nothing you need to do
beside turn on the mount, and either sync on a star or unpark from park 1
position, which is what I normally do anyway, and PEM will then have to be
re-recorded.

That's it.

Gerald

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> , "astrokattner" <kattnerk@> wrote:

Check out the link below from their website. It says Q or earlier.
It also notes that the keypad info will not change so date time location is
still in there, but that info has to be downloaded to the servo firmware
for it to be reinitialized into the mount.

http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc

Hope this helps.


--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> , "Larry Phillips" <llp41astro@>
wrote:

I had the same experience with my O chip. Also, not sure about PEC.

Larry

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> , "gmillerok" <grmok1@> wrote:

I posted the exact same question. All I can tell you is that
after I replaced the Q chip with the S chip, the GTOCP3 booted up as it
normally would before. Location data, time, date all was as it was before
the chip upgrade.

Not sure about PEC. That's a bit hard to tell.

Gerald

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> , "Larry Phillips" <llp41astro@>
wrote:

Hello anyone who can help.

I have just received and installed my "S" chip replacing one
which is version "O".

There seems to be a contradiction in the two instructions
sheets received with the chip. The one titled "Installing New ROM Chip into
GTO Control Box-Model GTOCP3, Chip Version "R" and later", in the last
paragraph with the subheading titled "After the ROM chip
replacement-Versions "R" and later", it says "If your previous ROM chip was
version "Q" or earlier, you must perform a full initialization on your
first power-up, and you will also need to redo the mount's PEM. Etc."

In the second sheet titled "Your first observing session" it
says in the next to last paragraph titled "After a ROM chip
replacement-GTOCP3-Version Q and earlier", "Install your new chip and
proceed normally as if nothing had changed. Etc."

I had the "O" chip, do I need to do an initialization on first
start up and redo PEM or not?

Larry





Re: Confusion After Installing the "S" Chip

Hank Sielski
 

Gerald,

Its been awhile, but I thought I remember Ray telling me that you can use
PemPro to download the curve thats loaded in the mount and save it on your
PC, for just such an occasion. Then I believe you can restore it to the
mount with the new chip installed without having to re-do it.

At least it wouldn't hurt to try to back up the old curve before you remove
the chip.

Maybe Ray can remind us...

OTOH, if its been some time since its been updated, then maybe you want to
do another.

Good luck with your upgrade.

Hank

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:09 PM, gmillerok <grmok1@swbell.net> wrote:

**


No. Didn't think of that at the time. I just plan on doing another Pempro
run.

Gerald


--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Phillips" <llp41astro@...> wrote:

Gerald, thanks for the feedback. Was anything said about losing the
PEMPRO input previously saved for Q or earlier?

Larry

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "gmillerok" <grmok1@> wrote:

After talking to George, I believe this is the case for "Q" chips and
earlier:

The controller won't be synced to the correct position to the last
location when the mount was powered down. The term "initialization" simply
means to turn on the keypad and there are three options on powerup
depending on how it was set up before. Autoconnect set to yes, no, or EXT
as we all are aware.

When referring to "Initialization", this simply means that the
controller needs to know with a sync where the mount is pointed again as
the last location was not saved after the chip upgrade. So either sync on a
known star or unpark from Park 1 (option 4) is required. It cannot resume
from any other park position because it won't know where that location was
the last time the mount was turned off. Nothing need be done for date,
time, location, etc. is my understanding.

Mine was set on EXT, and when I connected to The SkyXPro, it seemed to
work normally as it did before as it resumed from Park 1 using ASCOM. I'm
not sure if that information is sent to the controller by the ASCOM driver
or the The SkyXPro. Maybe Ray can further explain this option.

But, in any event, there would appear there is nothing you need to do
beside turn on the mount, and either sync on a star or unpark from park 1
position, which is what I normally do anyway, and PEM will then have to be
re-recorded.

That's it.

Gerald

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "astrokattner" <kattnerk@> wrote:

Check out the link below from their website. It says Q or earlier.
It also notes that the keypad info will not change so date time location is
still in there, but that info has to be downloaded to the servo firmware
for it to be reinitialized into the mount.

http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc

Hope this helps.


--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Phillips" <llp41astro@> wrote:

I had the same experience with my O chip. Also, not sure about PEC.

Larry

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "gmillerok" <grmok1@> wrote:

I posted the exact same question. All I can tell you is that
after I replaced the Q chip with the S chip, the GTOCP3 booted up as it
normally would before. Location data, time, date all was as it was before
the chip upgrade.

Not sure about PEC. That's a bit hard to tell.

Gerald

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Phillips" <llp41astro@>
wrote:

Hello anyone who can help.

I have just received and installed my "S" chip replacing one
which is version "O".

There seems to be a contradiction in the two instructions
sheets received with the chip. The one titled "Installing New ROM Chip into
GTO Control Box-Model GTOCP3, Chip Version "R" and later", in the last
paragraph with the subheading titled "After the ROM chip
replacement-Versions "R" and later", it says "If your previous ROM chip was
version "Q" or earlier, you must perform a full initialization on your
first power-up, and you will also need to redo the mount's PEM. Etc."

In the second sheet titled "Your first observing session" it
says in the next to last paragraph titled "After a ROM chip
replacement-GTOCP3-Version Q and earlier", "Install your new chip and
proceed normally as if nothing had changed. Etc."

I had the "O" chip, do I need to do an initialization on first
start up and redo PEM or not?

Larry


Re: Confusion After Installing the "S" Chip

Gerald Miller
 

No. Didn't think of that at the time. I just plan on doing another Pempro run.

Gerald

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Phillips" <llp41astro@...> wrote:

Gerald, thanks for the feedback. Was anything said about losing the PEMPRO input previously saved for Q or earlier?

Larry

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "gmillerok" <grmok1@> wrote:

After talking to George, I believe this is the case for "Q" chips and earlier:

The controller won't be synced to the correct position to the last location when the mount was powered down. The term "initialization" simply means to turn on the keypad and there are three options on powerup depending on how it was set up before. Autoconnect set to yes, no, or EXT as we all are aware.

When referring to "Initialization", this simply means that the controller needs to know with a sync where the mount is pointed again as the last location was not saved after the chip upgrade. So either sync on a known star or unpark from Park 1 (option 4) is required. It cannot resume from any other park position because it won't know where that location was the last time the mount was turned off. Nothing need be done for date, time, location, etc. is my understanding.

Mine was set on EXT, and when I connected to The SkyXPro, it seemed to work normally as it did before as it resumed from Park 1 using ASCOM. I'm not sure if that information is sent to the controller by the ASCOM driver or the The SkyXPro. Maybe Ray can further explain this option.

But, in any event, there would appear there is nothing you need to do beside turn on the mount, and either sync on a star or unpark from park 1 position, which is what I normally do anyway, and PEM will then have to be re-recorded.

That's it.

Gerald

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "astrokattner" <kattnerk@> wrote:

Check out the link below from their website. It says Q or earlier. It also notes that the keypad info will not change so date time location is still in there, but that info has to be downloaded to the servo firmware for it to be reinitialized into the mount.

http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc

Hope this helps.


--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Phillips" <llp41astro@> wrote:

I had the same experience with my O chip. Also, not sure about PEC.

Larry

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "gmillerok" <grmok1@> wrote:

I posted the exact same question. All I can tell you is that after I replaced the Q chip with the S chip, the GTOCP3 booted up as it normally would before. Location data, time, date all was as it was before the chip upgrade.

Not sure about PEC. That's a bit hard to tell.

Gerald

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Phillips" <llp41astro@> wrote:

Hello anyone who can help.

I have just received and installed my "S" chip replacing one which is version "O".

There seems to be a contradiction in the two instructions sheets received with the chip. The one titled "Installing New ROM Chip into GTO Control Box-Model GTOCP3, Chip Version "R" and later", in the last paragraph with the subheading titled "After the ROM chip replacement-Versions "R" and later", it says "If your previous ROM chip was version "Q" or earlier, you must perform a full initialization on your first power-up, and you will also need to redo the mount's PEM. Etc."

In the second sheet titled "Your first observing session" it says in the next to last paragraph titled "After a ROM chip replacement-GTOCP3-Version Q and earlier", "Install your new chip and proceed normally as if nothing had changed. Etc."

I had the "O" chip, do I need to do an initialization on first start up and redo PEM or not?

Larry


Re: Confusion After Installing the "S" Chip

Larry Phillips
 

Gerald, thanks for the feedback. Was anything said about losing the PEMPRO input previously saved for Q or earlier?

Larry

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "gmillerok" <grmok1@...> wrote:

After talking to George, I believe this is the case for "Q" chips and earlier:

The controller won't be synced to the correct position to the last location when the mount was powered down. The term "initialization" simply means to turn on the keypad and there are three options on powerup depending on how it was set up before. Autoconnect set to yes, no, or EXT as we all are aware.

When referring to "Initialization", this simply means that the controller needs to know with a sync where the mount is pointed again as the last location was not saved after the chip upgrade. So either sync on a known star or unpark from Park 1 (option 4) is required. It cannot resume from any other park position because it won't know where that location was the last time the mount was turned off. Nothing need be done for date, time, location, etc. is my understanding.

Mine was set on EXT, and when I connected to The SkyXPro, it seemed to work normally as it did before as it resumed from Park 1 using ASCOM. I'm not sure if that information is sent to the controller by the ASCOM driver or the The SkyXPro. Maybe Ray can further explain this option.

But, in any event, there would appear there is nothing you need to do beside turn on the mount, and either sync on a star or unpark from park 1 position, which is what I normally do anyway, and PEM will then have to be re-recorded.

That's it.

Gerald

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "astrokattner" <kattnerk@> wrote:

Check out the link below from their website. It says Q or earlier. It also notes that the keypad info will not change so date time location is still in there, but that info has to be downloaded to the servo firmware for it to be reinitialized into the mount.

http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc

Hope this helps.


--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Phillips" <llp41astro@> wrote:

I had the same experience with my O chip. Also, not sure about PEC.

Larry

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "gmillerok" <grmok1@> wrote:

I posted the exact same question. All I can tell you is that after I replaced the Q chip with the S chip, the GTOCP3 booted up as it normally would before. Location data, time, date all was as it was before the chip upgrade.

Not sure about PEC. That's a bit hard to tell.

Gerald

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Phillips" <llp41astro@> wrote:

Hello anyone who can help.

I have just received and installed my "S" chip replacing one which is version "O".

There seems to be a contradiction in the two instructions sheets received with the chip. The one titled "Installing New ROM Chip into GTO Control Box-Model GTOCP3, Chip Version "R" and later", in the last paragraph with the subheading titled "After the ROM chip replacement-Versions "R" and later", it says "If your previous ROM chip was version "Q" or earlier, you must perform a full initialization on your first power-up, and you will also need to redo the mount's PEM. Etc."

In the second sheet titled "Your first observing session" it says in the next to last paragraph titled "After a ROM chip replacement-GTOCP3-Version Q and earlier", "Install your new chip and proceed normally as if nothing had changed. Etc."

I had the "O" chip, do I need to do an initialization on first start up and redo PEM or not?

Larry


Re: APCC and ASCOM

Donghun
 

Hi Tom,

Sure no problem.

Thank you.
Dong Hun

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "tucstargzr" <tucstargzr@...> wrote:

Hello Dong,

As I'm doing a bit of homework on this, mind if I help you a bit by pasteing this?

Tom

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, Marj <marj@> wrote:

Please check this link. It lists the features of both. When they are
available for trial use, you can determine which version is most useful for your
application.
http://www.astro-physics.com/products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc.htm


Clear Skies!

Marj Christen
Vice President
Astro-Physics, Inc
11250 Forest Hills Road
Machesney Park, IL 61115
Phone: 815-282-1513
Fax: 815-282-9847
www.astro-physics.com
Please include this e-mail with your response.


--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Dong Hun" <malonee72@> wrote:

Hi guys,

I'm an owner of Mach1GTO.
I'm very interested in APCC but I don't fully understand what exactly it is.

Is APCC an application using the AP ASCOM driver or some sort of driver?

I'm using Sequence Generator Pro and several other planetarium software such as SkyTools and Cartes Du Ciel for image capture, plate solving and syncing etc. These software uses the ASCOM driver to move the mount and send the Recal command.

For example I do an initial Recal with Cartes Du Ciel for a star and use Sequence Generator Pro to do plate solving to go to the target to match the image from the previous night or go back to the target after re-focusing. Sequence Generator Pro do the plate solving using PinPoint or Elbrus.

What would be the work flow if I use the plate solving feature of the APCC?
Can APCC work with the other software using the ASCOM driver (other software sending the RECAL command)?

My setup is not a permanent setup.

Thank you.
Dong Hun


Re: Confusion After Installing the "S" Chip

Gerald Miller
 

After talking to George, I believe this is the case for "Q" chips and earlier:

The controller won't be synced to the correct position to the last location when the mount was powered down. The term "initialization" simply means to turn on the keypad and there are three options on powerup depending on how it was set up before. Autoconnect set to yes, no, or EXT as we all are aware.

When referring to "Initialization", this simply means that the controller needs to know with a sync where the mount is pointed again as the last location was not saved after the chip upgrade. So either sync on a known star or unpark from Park 1 (option 4) is required. It cannot resume from any other park position because it won't know where that location was the last time the mount was turned off. Nothing need be done for date, time, location, etc. is my understanding.

Mine was set on EXT, and when I connected to The SkyXPro, it seemed to work normally as it did before as it resumed from Park 1 using ASCOM. I'm not sure if that information is sent to the controller by the ASCOM driver or the The SkyXPro. Maybe Ray can further explain this option.

But, in any event, there would appear there is nothing you need to do beside turn on the mount, and either sync on a star or unpark from park 1 position, which is what I normally do anyway, and PEM will then have to be re-recorded.

That's it.

Gerald

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "astrokattner" <kattnerk@...> wrote:

Check out the link below from their website. It says Q or earlier. It also notes that the keypad info will not change so date time location is still in there, but that info has to be downloaded to the servo firmware for it to be reinitialized into the mount.

http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc

Hope this helps.


--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Phillips" <llp41astro@> wrote:

I had the same experience with my O chip. Also, not sure about PEC.

Larry

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "gmillerok" <grmok1@> wrote:

I posted the exact same question. All I can tell you is that after I replaced the Q chip with the S chip, the GTOCP3 booted up as it normally would before. Location data, time, date all was as it was before the chip upgrade.

Not sure about PEC. That's a bit hard to tell.

Gerald

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Phillips" <llp41astro@> wrote:

Hello anyone who can help.

I have just received and installed my "S" chip replacing one which is version "O".

There seems to be a contradiction in the two instructions sheets received with the chip. The one titled "Installing New ROM Chip into GTO Control Box-Model GTOCP3, Chip Version "R" and later", in the last paragraph with the subheading titled "After the ROM chip replacement-Versions "R" and later", it says "If your previous ROM chip was version "Q" or earlier, you must perform a full initialization on your first power-up, and you will also need to redo the mount's PEM. Etc."

In the second sheet titled "Your first observing session" it says in the next to last paragraph titled "After a ROM chip replacement-GTOCP3-Version Q and earlier", "Install your new chip and proceed normally as if nothing had changed. Etc."

I had the "O" chip, do I need to do an initialization on first start up and redo PEM or not?

Larry


Re: seeing, and optimum guiding

lacour.morten
 

Hi Roy

Thank you for replying
I looked at your spreadsheet, which is very usefull.
I made a similar excersise

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/27494488/simulation.xls

But wanted to simulate the reduction of the noise in the centroid signal obtained by increasing the exposure time. I think this is probably one of the most important parameters because you have to guide through a lot of seeing induced centroid noise. This relationship cannot be calculated without knowledge of the time dependencies of the various components of seeing, so I figured that if somebody had measured the relationship empirically, i wouldn't have to do it.

M

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "roywellington" <roywellington@...> wrote:

Morten,

Please find a spreadsheet in the Stark-Labs yahoo group called "Guiding Worksheet". The spreadsheet was designed to test the effects of the PHD parameters Aggressiveness and Hysteresis. I got an estimate of Seeing from the PHD log which is likely exposure dependent. The spreadsheet does not directly address your question but I hope you find some value nonetheless.

I usually use a guide camera exposure setting of four seconds. I feel I must reach for "Star Mass" at least as much as minimizing fluctuations from seeing.

I put a copy of the spreadsheet at http://goo.gl/sc1SC

Roy

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "lacour.morten" <lacour.morten@> wrote:

Dear group

One of the problems autoguiding AP mounts is that the corrections needed are small compared to the fluctuations of the guider centroid caused by seeing, at least in my area. One way to reduce centroid vatiation is to increase guider exposure time. In order to optimize the parameters without wasting preciuos observation time, I need an empirical relationship between exposure time and centroid vatiation.
If some of you already have made that exercise I would very much appreciate the conclusion, and/or the data. I.e. phd og maxim guidelog files with different exposure times for the guider.

Morten


Re: Motor Stall & Amber Light Experience!!!

Roland Christen
 

The amber light comes on if the servo senses that the motor is not responding to commanded movement. This can happen in a number of ways.

1) severe imbalance of the RA axis such that the RA motor cannot drive the mount at the sideral rate due to overload. Can also occur if the battery or power supply cannot supply enough current to overcome the severe unbalanced load.

2) poor connection of the cables going to the motor/encoder. If the motor does not receive power to move, the servo senses this and will shut the power off and turn on the amber light.

3) encoder signals not getting to the servo due to bad connection. The encoder signals tell the servo that the motor shaft is turning at the selected rates. If there is no feedback from the encoder, the motor will run away rapidly since the servo is trying to send more and more power to a "stalled" motor to get it to move. It senses a stall condition because the encoder signal is zero due to bad connection, and after 2 seconds will shut down the power to prevent damage to the motor. However, for 2 seconds the motor might run away at full speed because of this loss of encoder signal.

4) low battery voltage. If the voltage drops below 11.5 volts, the servo will go into stall mode and turn on the amber light.

Make sure that all wires on all the outside motor cable connectors are properly attached to the pins. You could have one wire making contact on a pin, but not actually attached - it may have broken off at some point and is just touching the pin. Examine all the connections and re-solder any that are questionable.

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Angelini <trtags@yahoo.com>
To: ap-gto <ap-gto@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Nov 23, 2012 7:22 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] Motor Stall & Amber Light Experience!!!


I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

I recently encountered a problem with my 2001 vintage AP 1200 GTO. This system
drives my Parallax HD150C GEM. During some routine maintenance at my small
roll-off roof observatory, I was making adjustments to the pier. I needed to
step outside briefly so I did not see the sudden event, a high speed slew which
caused the scope, a 180mm APO to be driven into the pier. Ouch! Fortunately
there was no serious damage, just some small scuff marks on the tube and paint
scrapes on the pier. When I attempted to reset the drive, I got the dreaded
amber light. I followed all of the trouble shooting guideline on the forum and
on the AP web site to no avail. So, it appeared that the system would have to
go back to AP for evaluation/repair.

I contacted Joe Nastasi at Parallax. Joe said, that it was difficult to be sure
what had happened but that the electronics would have to go back to AP for
test. He further explained that AP had made some changes over the years to
protect the motors. The new motors now have anti-surge protection. Apparently
it had be discovered that electrical surges could cause erratic sometimes
runaway conditions with the motors. He felt that my recent experience sounded
like one of these events. Since my electronics was over 10 years old, it
sounded like a good idea to have the system upgraded.

The following day, I removed the motor/encoder units from the RA and Dec axes
and returned these along with the control box, keypad, Y-cable and power cord.
I'll need the complete AP electronics with cabling, keypad, controller and also
both motors with their small spur gears, to AP. I was told that as a minimum
there would be a charge for repairs and troubleshooting and that there was the
possibility that the control box would have to be replaced.

About a week later we got a complete report from AP. I was impressed with their
response time. This is the essence of the report:

• Installed new anti-surge chips for each motor which offers extra protection
against surges. This is how all of our new motors are equipped. The motors
themselves are just fine.

• Keypad has been upgraded to the newest version, new keypad cable was
installed. New keypad battery and keypad protector was also installed

• Y-cable and power cord checked - OK

• The main issue that needed addressing was the control box. (referring to my
original old control box) Here's the issue: The problem I had experienced
appears to be in the control box. It is old and its performance is "unstable."
Some contacts might have oxidized over time. It might be beyond repair.

I had 2 choices: I could wait and have the old box fully analyzed by the outside
engineer who designed it or AP could provide a brand new, up to date control
box. AP had tested the balance of my system, with a new control box and
everything worked fine. I opted for the new control box.

The package from AP arrived earlier this week. After opening it and examining
everything I connected it up on the dining room table. Although this would not
be an accurate test it was a mockup of the system and at least I should be able
to check basic system operation. I connected the control box to my Pyramid 10
amp regulated DC [power supply and turned it on. The voltage at the PS
terminals measured 13.96 V. The keypad read, "AP Ver. 4.7" and the led lit up
red and stayed red. No amber light. No motor stall message on the keypad. I
was able to move each drive motor by using the NSEW keys. The site information
had been saved and the internal clock was working. I even simulated slewing to
an object and both motors operated, including the reversal in direction at the
very end of the slew. I planned to visit the observatory the next day to
install the motors and test the system.

I installed the motors in the RA and Dec gearboxes and adjusted the lash between
the Byers worm and ring gear. I reconnected the Y-cable, keypad , power cable.


Switch On PS = 13.92 V, Red LED on control box, Keypad reads, "AP ver. 4.7",
what AMBER LIGHT Arrrrrrgh!!!! Oh no! But everything worked at home yesterday.
Power Off.

A few minutes later, after I was able to regain my composure, I turned off the
power, and checked all of the connections. Everything looked OK

Let's try again. Switch On PS = 13.92 V, Red LED on control box, Keypad
reads, "AP ver. 4.7", a couple of seconds and AMBER LIGHT. What the h….

I called Joe Nastasi and carefully described everything that I had done so far.
He was very surprised that I was getting a motor stall. We agreed that the main
difference between the home simulation and the real one at the observatory was:
• Power source – perhaps I was getting a stall due to inadequate voltage.
• Load on the servo motors
I quickly eliminated the voltage as a problem by double checking the Pyramid PS
with another digital voltmeter. The no-load terminal voltage was 13.96. I
turned on everything in the observatory and rechecked the voltage. The meter
read 13.92.

In order to eliminate the possibility of a stuck gear, I loosened and withdrew
the worms from both ring gears. The servos were now totally isolated from the
RA and Dec drive gears I checked and was able to turn each motor shaft easily
in both directions.

The moment of truth. Switch On PS = 13.92 V, Red LED on control box, Keypad
reads, "AP ver. 4.7", a couple of seconds and AMBER LIGHT. No!

Called Joe back. He will try to contact AP, but tomorrow is Thanksgiving so no
promises.

I spent the remainder of the day and evening scouring this forum and the AP web
site for anything I could find concerning the amber light and motor stall. This
is when I discovered the motor stall pdf. I read it through a few times. Very
interesting, but it seemed like I had done everything listed in the document. I
decided to return to the observatory early on Thanksgiving morning and following
the instructions I had just read.

Thanksgiving morning I started with the system in the condition I had left it
the day before. Everything was connected but the worms were retracted from the
ring gears. I re-meshed the gears since I wanted to test the system with
everything in normal state.

Referring to the motor stall pdf, I easily got through step 1 and part of step
2. When I powered up the tracking rate was set to sidereal. So I changed it to
stop. Now when I pressed the direction keys, the drives seemed to move
correctly. I changed the slew rate to 600 and the button rate to 64. I pressed
the NSEW buttons and the drive moved. No amber light. No motor stall. All
stop. What did I do to correct the original problem? This is not clear. Power
down. 1 minute. Power up. Red LED AP ver. 4.7. No amber light. Check site
data OK. Set tracking to sidereal. OK Try NSEW buttons OK So far so good.
Power down. I spent the next hour balancing the mount and setting up PARK.
With the mount balanced, adjusted and the clutches tightened, and roughly polar
aligned, I powered up and tested a go to. Selected the sun and bingo fairly
good. With the mount tracking, I decided to move the Y-cable, key pad cable and
power cord suspecting to find a loose connection. No malfunction. Parked and
powered down. Powered up and repeated another go to, this time Polaris. Good!
Parked, powered down. Repeated this five or six times with no problem. I am
satisfied that the system is working but the engineer in me is troubled. I
really didn't do anything that I hadn't done before. So, why is the system
working now? In the future if I am preparing for a once in a lifetime shot,
will the amber light return? Until I have a definitive answer to these
questions I will move forward but with some trepidation!

Your comments would be appreciated!











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Re: The Horsehead and the Flame

Roland Christen
 

Really really nice image!

Rolando

-----Original Message-----
From: bakersfieldbiker <fblue@bak.rr.com>
To: ap-gto <ap-gto@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Nov 23, 2012 12:46 pm
Subject: [ap-gto] The Horsehead and the Flame


http://www.astrophotogallery.org/floyd-s-pics/p10599-horsehead-nebula-bern.html

Here is my latest image from November. This was a target that I avoided due to
halos on Alnatak. But after finally getting filters that do not halo (Astrodon
Gen2) I was able to capture it.

Hope you like it.

TEC-140 @ f/5.4
ML833
AP-900

22x10 minutes each color RGB & Synthetic Luminance.
Floyd



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Re: Confusion After Installing the "S" Chip

astrokattner
 

Check out the link below from their website. It says Q or earlier. It also notes that the keypad info will not change so date time location is still in there, but that info has to be downloaded to the servo firmware for it to be reinitialized into the mount.

http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/accessories/software/apcc/apcc

Hope this helps.

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Phillips" <llp41astro@...> wrote:

I had the same experience with my O chip. Also, not sure about PEC.

Larry

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "gmillerok" <grmok1@> wrote:

I posted the exact same question. All I can tell you is that after I replaced the Q chip with the S chip, the GTOCP3 booted up as it normally would before. Location data, time, date all was as it was before the chip upgrade.

Not sure about PEC. That's a bit hard to tell.

Gerald

--- In ap-gto@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Phillips" <llp41astro@> wrote:

Hello anyone who can help.

I have just received and installed my "S" chip replacing one which is version "O".

There seems to be a contradiction in the two instructions sheets received with the chip. The one titled "Installing New ROM Chip into GTO Control Box-Model GTOCP3, Chip Version "R" and later", in the last paragraph with the subheading titled "After the ROM chip replacement-Versions "R" and later", it says "If your previous ROM chip was version "Q" or earlier, you must perform a full initialization on your first power-up, and you will also need to redo the mount's PEM. Etc."

In the second sheet titled "Your first observing session" it says in the next to last paragraph titled "After a ROM chip replacement-GTOCP3-Version Q and earlier", "Install your new chip and proceed normally as if nothing had changed. Etc."

I had the "O" chip, do I need to do an initialization on first start up and redo PEM or not?

Larry