In a message dated 6/19/2007 8:10:43 PM Central Daylight Time,
mal@... writes:

When I connect to the mount it works fine for the first few objects
than the scope points at the ground or almost crashes into the mount.

If Sky Tools is sending RA/DEC co-ordinates only to the mount in the AP
protocol, then the mount will never crash into the ground.

If Sky Tools is sending these co-ordinates in some other language, then it is
possible for the mount to lose position.

If Sky Tools is sending a "Sync" signal to the mount, or if you are doing a
"Sync" in Sky Tools, then it is possible for the mount to reconfigure its
orientation at each Sync. If you do this at some point with the scope under the
mount, then the mount will dutifully pick up every subsequent object with the
scope under the mount.

The servo requires only RA/DEC numbers, nothing else. If it gets this, it
will never be lost. I suspect that Sky Tools is sending other stuff besides the
basic RA/DEC numbers whenever you do a GoTo. Only way to know this would be to
look at the port and see what is being sent out.

Rolando



**************************************
See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Hi Roland,
Good point. I forgot about the power for the display. Leave it the
way it is. I love it, and have been able to do everything I need "As
Is".
Thanks, Rick

--- In ap-gto@..., chris1011@... wrote:

In a message dated 6/18/2007 5:25:02 PM Central Daylight Time,
rickwiggins@... writes:

B) Bluetooth >> maybe $25 to eliminate the serial cable and $75

to

eliminate the handcontroller cable.

The problem again with the keypad (hand controller) is that we

chose to use a

type of display that works down to -40F. This display uses a lot

of power.

Batteries to power the keypad would not work very long. The keypad

must get 12

volt power from somewhere, thus the cord. The alternative is to

use an LCD

display which uses almost no power, but which freezes up in the

cold, or becomes

slow and unreadable.

Rolando


**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.

At 10:16 AM 6/19/2007, chris1011@... wrote:

In a message dated 6/18/2007 11:38:22 PM Central Daylight Time,
ve3gyq@... writes:

Roland: users CAN use Bluetooth between their computer and the mount
by adding a Bluetooth-Serial adaptor without YOU having to do anything ...
And that would be a cheaper solution too ... easier than YOU adding
it to the mount.

Thanks, but the issue is the keypad. This item, like a laptop computer,
requires a certain amount of power for the electronics and display. Thus the need
for the cord.

Rolando

Yes, I saw that part of the discussion ... if it HAS to be plugged in for power, it might just as well be plugged into the mount. I wouldn't want to see that nice display go away just to do away with the cable. If folks don't mind (temporarily) giving up the hand-controller, they could make a bluetooth connection from a Pocket PC running TheSky Pocket Edition.

Dave

Indeed, my LX200GPS handbox's LCD starts to fail at about 35°F. Worse yet, the handbox circuitry itself goes at about 28°F.

-- Jeff.



________________________________

From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...] On Behalf Of chris1011@...
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 3:14 PM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] New features



In a message dated 6/18/2007 9:19:39 PM Central Daylight Time,
J.Zeglinski@... <mailto:J.Zeglinski%40rogers.com> writes:

> Are all the other cheap,
> made in China, competitive hand pads having LCD problems with cold?

Yes. None of the ones we tested worked well in freezing temps.

Rolando

**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com. <http://www.aol.com.>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I see a consensus building here that says GPS on an AP mount is non-
essential, not much more than a gimmick, and probably wouldn't
improve AP's competitive stance.

what drives the AP market is sheer product quality. What impedes AP's
competitiveness (but certainly contributes to the mythology and keeps
the pre-owned market hot)is the long wait for delivery.

But adding USB ports? Absolutely. I've never experienced a flaky USB
product, but getting a new (serial-less) laptop to talk to my AP900
through flaky serial-to-USB adapters is the only inconvenience I've
experienced with this mount.

Belkin's flopped but Radio Shack's has proved fairly reliable. The
fact is, though, that serial ports have gone the way of floppy disks.
Sooner or later, lack of USB ports will begin to make AP mounts feel
a bit, well, old-fashioned. Bad for marketing.

Rgds / Bob



--- In ap-gto@..., "woodworkjkt" <woodworkt@...> wrote:

Well, I'm brand new to this group, having just moved from a previous
Gemini based system to an AP900. However, I can say that my one and
only trepidation in making the switch had nothing to do with GPS,

but

rather the absence of an on-board alignment modeling program a la
T-Point or Gemini's equivalent. It certainly wasn't enough to keep

me

with a Gemini based product, and this isn't intended to be a

complaint

of any sort, but if you're looking for feedback from customers who
have used or considered "alternative options," I'd say that's a much
bigger deal than GPS.

In contrast, GPS seems more gimmicky than something really useful.
Frankly, I used to use a handheld GPS for geocoords (and time check)
with my Gemini, but never even found it worth my time to order the
relatively inexpensive cable I could have used to hook the two
together. That should say something. Moreover, the fact that I can
store multiple locations in the AP900's memory (e.g., our club's
various dark sites), and then just pick them based on which one I am
at, beats the heck out of trying to synch up with GPS every time.

On the USB discussion, I do have a suspicion that before too long,

all

the manufacturers in this industry will have to go USB vs. RS-232
serial. You can't find a laptop any more with a built in serial

port,

and who knows how many years are left before people will stop making
quality USB to RS232 adapters (or equally important, reliable

software

drivers for our ever evolving operating systems). Like many of AP's
customers, I purchased from AP because I was willing to make a
substantial investment in a mount that I have confidence will last

far

longer than any computer I own. From that perspective, I think it
does make sense to consider what sort of computer people are going

to

want to use with the mount 5 or 10 years down the road, and what

sort

of interfaces that computer is likely to have available.

Again, my new 900 is a fantastic product, so please don't take any

of

that as criticism of it (especially from a newbie)... but since

you're

discussing possible tweaks for future versions, I thought I'd go

ahead

and add this.

--Ken T.

--- In ap-gto@..., chris1011@ wrote:

Hello All,

Marj informs me that our main competitor has now offered a GPS for

the Gemini

GoTo system. I realize that GPS is vital for Alt-Az mountings,

since

tracking

rate of any object in the sky is variable and directly affected

by your

location on earth. However, since the tracking rate of a polar

aligned GEM is

always fixed at sidereal, I question the need for this added

complication to the

system (another thing to go wrong out in the field). Myself, I

think

of it like

having anti-lock brakes on a speedboat, however Marj is totally

convinced that

we will need this vital bit of technology in order to not be left

behind by

the competition.

So what exactly does GPS offer to a GEM (it won't help you to

polar

align)?

Any thoughts from the advanced users out there?

Rolando


**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 09:36 AM 6/19/2007, Rick K wrote:

And which batteryless Bluetooth adapter will do this job? AFAIK the
serial port on the AP mounts have NO provision for supplying power to
attached serial devices. As well any of those serial devices are about
2 inches long and would stick up waiting to get ripped off the
controller as the scope or camera passed by. No thanks. Integrated is
by far the best solution.

The Socket CSA is 2" or less in size, and can get its power from Pin 9 ... you can wire pin 9 on your mount with 5 volts.
The adaptor doesn't seem to stick out any further than a DB9 would .... I don't think it would be too vulnerable to "attack" if I recall where the connector is.

BTW, I think reworking the mount's electronics to add Bluetooth would very well require RECERTIFICATION by the FCC ...
If I recall correctly, that can cost upwards of $20k - Roland could comment as I am sure he knows the cost.

(The electronics have to be evaluated for the FCC to prove that they do not have significant RF radiation - I'm not sure if a simple rework
would require this, but it would not surprise me)

Your mileage may vary.

Dave

And which batteryless Bluetooth adapter will do this job? AFAIK the
serial port on the AP mounts have NO provision for supplying power to
attached serial devices. As well any of those serial devices are about
2 inches long and would stick up waiting to get ripped off the
controller as the scope or camera passed by. No thanks. Integrated is
by far the best solution.

The top serial port could be retained for legacy. The bottom serial
port should be changed to a USB 2.0 port and provide a hub with a
couple or three or four additional connections.

As far as the wired hand controller goes, keep it that way. I like the
reliability and ruggedness. It is simple to use and works well for
those evenings that I jsut want to use teh scope and mount quickly
without setting up all the imaging frills.

For imaging purposes, I use an edgeport USB to 4 port serial box so
that I can control the mount, two focusers and a Pyxis rotator. In
front of that I have a powered USB 2.0 hub which connects to the
Edgeport, CCD and guider camera. Each device requires power as well.
There are wires everywhere. I think it is Joe, who has a box he made
which contains all the various cables, power adapters, etc ready for
use. Unfortunately I have yet to get around to doing this. It would be
so nice to move completely to USB with three cables to the mount, one
supplying power to the mount, one supplying power to the camera and
one USB to run everything.

Bluetooth doesn't have the capacity to replace the USB connection for
use with large arrays and high speeds. It might have in a generation
or two. I might agree that it looks like it would be best left out for
the time being, but since the mount CAN be run without using the hand
controller, say from a PDA or whatever, it is time to think about how
to implement such communications. A single chip or modular approach
which can be easily user upgraded might be worth a look.

Rick.


--- In ap-gto@..., "David B. Toth" <ve3gyq@...> wrote:

At 06:42 PM 6/18/2007, chris1011@... wrote:

In a message dated 6/18/2007 5:25:02 PM Central Daylight Time,
rickwiggins@... writes:

B) Bluetooth >> maybe $25 to eliminate the serial cable and $75 to
eliminate the handcontroller cable.

The problem again with the keypad (hand controller) is that we

chose to use a

type of display that works down to -40F. This display uses a lot of

power.

Batteries to power the keypad would not work very long. The keypad
must get 12
volt power from somewhere, thus the cord. The alternative is to use

an LCD

display which uses almost no power, but which freezes up in the
cold, or becomes
slow and unreadable.

Roland: users CAN use Bluetooth between their computer and the mount
by adding a Bluetooth-Serial adaptor without YOU having to do

anything ...

And that would be a cheaper solution too ... easier than YOU adding
it to the mount.

Dave

Hi Mark,

It would be good to know how much misalignment you're seeing, but my
guess is that the issue is not with the mounting hardware, it's in the
C-14 - either you are seeing mirror flop (which would produce
inconsistent pointing errors depending on what part of the sky the
scope was pointing to - or (just as likely, I think) the optical and
mechanical axes of the C-14 are not aligned. All it takes for that to
happen is for the central pipe on which the moving primary slides to
be slightly out of alignment with the mechanical axis of the OTA. In
that instance the "wedge" you're chasing is actually in the scope.

My advice: determine whether the error is reproducible over all areas
of the sky, which would favor my hypothesis #2, and then either
machine some clearance in the bolt holes so the cradle can be moved
slightly side-to-side, or (my favorite) just live with it. If you get
it sorted out once, I guaranteee that it will go out of whack in the
future. There are just too many sources of mechanical error in the
C-14. Good scope and good value but IMHO the design and mechanicals
are overtaxed at this aperture.

good luck,

Eric
www.taconicobservatory.com

In a message dated 6/18/2007 11:38:22 PM Central Daylight Time,
ve3gyq@... writes:

Roland: users CAN use Bluetooth between their computer and the mount
by adding a Bluetooth-Serial adaptor without YOU having to do anything ...
And that would be a cheaper solution too ... easier than YOU adding
it to the mount.

Thanks, but the issue is the keypad. This item, like a laptop computer,
requires a certain amount of power for the electronics and display. Thus the need
for the cord.

Rolando


**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.

In a message dated 6/18/2007 9:19:39 PM Central Daylight Time,
J.Zeglinski@... writes:

Are all the other cheap,
made in China, competitive hand pads having LCD problems with cold?

Yes. None of the ones we tested worked well in freezing temps.

Rolando


**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.

The best way to install it is by using a set of Parallax Rings and
installing it a sliding bar. Here's my setup:

http://jupiter.cstoneind.com

Regards,
Chris

Good day!
I'm looking at buying a Celestron C11 OTA, which I would use on my
900GTO.
Any recommendations on the best way to mount it? I already own the 15"
dovetail/sliding bar accessories.
Many thanks, and clearer skies,
Neil

Here's a fast two links...





http://www.blackbox.com/Catalog/Detail.aspx?cid=45,659,875
<http://www.blackbox.com/Catalog/Detail.aspx?cid=45,659,875&mid=4304>
&mid=4304



http://www.l-com.com/item.aspx?id=8656



Steve





From: ap-gto@... [mailto:ap-gto@...] On Behalf Of
Rick K
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 2:02 AM
To: ap-gto@...
Subject: [ap-gto] Re: New features



--- In ap-gto@... <mailto:ap-gto%40yahoogroups.com> , "David B.
Toth" <ve3gyq@...> wrote:

At 09:36 AM 6/19/2007, Rick K wrote:

And which batteryless Bluetooth adapter will do this job? AFAIK the
serial port on the AP mounts have NO provision for supplying power to
attached serial devices. As well any of those serial devices are about
2 inches long and would stick up waiting to get ripped off the
controller as the scope or camera passed by. No thanks. Integrated is
by far the best solution.

The Socket CSA is 2" or less in size, and can get its power from Pin
9 ... you can wire pin 9 on your mount with 5 volts.
The adaptor doesn't seem to stick out any further than a DB9 would
.... I don't think it would be too vulnerable to "attack" if I recall
where the connector is.

BTW, I think reworking the mount's electronics to add Bluetooth would
very well require RECERTIFICATION by the FCC ...
If I recall correctly, that can cost upwards of $20k - Roland could
comment as I am sure he knows the cost.

(The electronics have to be evaluated for the FCC to prove that they
do not have significant RF radiation - I'm not sure if a simple rework
would require this, but it would not surprise me)

Your mileage may vary.

Dave

Sorry, but I have looked into this and 2 inches is over a half inch
too high. The clearance on the mount from both the big 900 and 1200
plates is inadequate to allow a 2" projection. It barely clears a
1.25" projection. I actually tie the serial cables down out of the way
specifically so that they stay out of the way. I have been on the
lookout for right angle DB9 connectors but since RS232 is essentially
obsolete, such items are virtually impossible to find. As it stands,
for Bluetooth, I could wire up a short 'serial' extender cable and
modify the port to supply power but this is just a kludge. A proper
built-in Bluetooth implementation would be better. Of course, all this
pales when compared to adding USB connectivity. THAT is way more
important. Shelve Bluetooth entirely if it is going to be a choice
between that and USB.

Although I would be completely at ease modifying the controller to
supply power to the Bluetooth adapter, I am wondering what Roland
would think about this. I expect that he might not be amused and that
it would void the warranty.

At 06:42 PM 6/18/2007, chris1011@... wrote:

In a message dated 6/18/2007 5:25:02 PM Central Daylight Time,
rickwiggins@... writes:

B) Bluetooth >> maybe $25 to eliminate the serial cable and $75 to
eliminate the handcontroller cable.

The problem again with the keypad (hand controller) is that we chose to use a
type of display that works down to -40F. This display uses a lot of power.
Batteries to power the keypad would not work very long. The keypad must get 12
volt power from somewhere, thus the cord. The alternative is to use an LCD
display which uses almost no power, but which freezes up in the cold, or becomes
slow and unreadable.

Roland: users CAN use Bluetooth between their computer and the mount by adding a Bluetooth-Serial adaptor without YOU having to do anything ...
And that would be a cheaper solution too ... easier than YOU adding it to the mount.

Dave

Dans un e-mail daté du 19/06/2007 09:42:26 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été),
neil.mack@... a écrit :

Good day!
I'm looking at buying a Celestron C11 OTA, which I would use on my
900GTO.
Any recommendations on the best way to mount it? I already own the 15"
dovetail/sliding bar accessories.
Many thanks, and clearer skies,
Neil


You should use the DOVELM2 or 16S with a DC11.

Gilles






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Jim,

I didn't notice the discrepancy, until you mentioned it.
The rule for selecting sex in the design of a cable connector is that if it
provides power, the receptacle should be a female, socket type, so there is
little chance of accidentally shorting the power carrying pins. In the case of
the Y-Cable, the GTOCP3 provides power for the motors, so the controller
end of the Y-cable should be, and is male (pins), because the hot power
pins in the controller socket are effectively already "guarded" from shorting.
At the far end, the RA/DEC Y-cable connectors should be female, for the same
reason, with pin receptacles, rather than sockets, on the motor housings.
In such case, Jim, you would not have made the accidental cabling error. But
this was likely a rare occurrence. Perhaps colour coded connector
sleeves/boots could be used, or painted - e.g. AP white on the controller
end, red and blue for RA & DEC. (Just a thought, for next cable design).

Of course, there are exceptions to the rule - the DB9 serial port on a
laptop has male pins, yet it carries signal power to the external serial
device. I'm just glad that house wiring receptacles do follow the rule -
imagine facing the "fangs" of 110 VAC on a wall, especially if they got bent,
if it weren't a female socket :-)

But surely AP must have known this when they laid down the harness spec,
so I assume this brand of high quality connector wasn't available in both
sex types for cable use - or there was some other good technical or practical
reason for this selection.

Joe

Roland,

Obviously, LCD's can be heated. There are even ruggedized laptops with
heated LCD displays. For the size of the pad LCD display, power would not
be an issue. Besides, the new rubber mitt would help redirect the
electronics heat toward an LCD display, to help. Are all the other cheap,
made in China, competitive hand pads having LCD problems with cold? I don't
think so.

There must be other issues. In any case, I don't mind the cord, since the
AP pad display is so clear to read with tired eyes at night - I hate squinting
on those LCD's - and given a choice, I would keep the AP pad just the way it
is ... well, maybe thinner, than such a brick, if possible.

Joe

Dec motor is just fine..............Thanks for your help...I just had
the cables reversed.

Thanks again for the response.

Jim Collins





--- In ap-gto@..., chris1011@... wrote:

In a message dated 6/18/2007 10:18:42 AM Central Daylight Time,
jimstar11gps@... writes:

Dec motor problem.............Oops my newbie error. Just an FYI--

it's

possible to get the control box connector plugged into the RA

motor and

the RA Motor connector plugged into the control box. MY
DUMB ERROR. I realized this right after I shot-off this "Help"

post.

Regards........"the cable fumbler"

Jim Collins

So your mount works ok now?

Rolando


**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,
I had to chime in on the continuing "GPS etc." discussion. I have 5
AP mounts, one Paramount, and I used to have a Celestron CGE. Here
are several points as I see them form personal use:
1. Having Bluetooth or some wireless connection would be useful
especially for portable. The caveat here is that it is super robust
and doesn't interfere with other communications devices. I usually
tend towards wired connections for everything to avoid radio signal
issues. The wires going to the mount are not really a problem as
these do not hang off the scope and move around like the cameras
wires.
2. Having GPS would be some value in instances where one is
traveling and wants to look up their positional coordinates (not
really needed for mount). In addition, one could have the mount
powered up in the back of his truck and use it for a navigational
sytem while driving! (just seeing who is awake here).
3. Serial & USB ports. I find serial ports to be very reliable and
USB ports and devices to be flaky at times. I find many of the
converter products to be flaky also. I have found that the Edgeport
4:1 (USB to serial) converters and Quatech products to work well,
but I don't trust the cheap converters. I like the serial ports and
operate them via the Edgeport 4:1.

So...how much would I pay for these features...
A) GPS >> less than $50 becasue I could tape a commerial unit on for
$50, and it really has no use for the mount.
B) Bluetooth >> maybe $25 to eliminate the serial cable and $75 to
eliminate the handcontroller cable.
C) USB >> probably nothing, as there is no bandwidth issue and
serial seems more reliable to me.

...Moving my name up on the waiting list...Priceless!!!

My 2 cents!
Rick

How do the guiding rates, 1.0x, 0.5x, 0.25x etc translate to motion of
the mount? What are the units?
If I am using PHD guiding and it gives a 50ms pulse and the keypad
guide rate is set at 1.0x does the motor or mount move a specific
amount? Is this translated to a certain number of steps of the servo
motor?
In the AP 900 is there a specific number of "steps" per arc minute of
RA movement?