Re: Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?


Joe Zeglinski
 

Hi Ray,
 
    Tube Currents in a Truss.
Which 18” truss OTA do you use, and do the fans blow at the back of the primary to cool  off the day heated glass, or blow out from the back, drawing ambient air stream in TOWARD the primary?
 
    I have an RCOS 14.5 truss OTA, and the fans on the back plate draw air from the front onto the face of the primary. I think the heat plumes image distortions (if any), are much less, since the ambient is already cooling off (being cooler than the glass), and the fans are not blowing latent mirror heat upward into the path of the light cone. RCOS pointed the fans to blow mirror heat backwards,  instead of upward,  in front of the primary.
 
    I think that is a better way. Simple solution next time you remove the primary, is to reverse your fans. May help a lot.
 
Joe
 

From: Ray Gralak
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 1:08 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
 
Hi Joe,

>     Not worried by “tube currents” – it is a 14.5” truss rather than a solid tube.

I have an 18" truss tube with cooling fans, so I can say that you can have tube currents even with a truss tube. I found that heat can waft off of the primary, secondary, and even the ground through a nylon cover over the truss tubes. :-)

That said, I will confirm proper operation, and fix if needed, by doing a polar alignment test with the latest build of PEMPro (v3.00.33) when the skies clear up here in Northern California.

-Ray Gralak
Author of PEMPro
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 9:56 AM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
>
> Hi Ray,
>
>     Not worried by “tube currents” – it is a 14.5” truss rather than a solid tube.
> A little reluctant to experiment with greatly offsetting the polar axis, after spending around 6 hours getting it close
> to (IIRC) around a 40 arc second drift.
> Your warning about careful attention to step 2 & 3 – I assume you mean getting the mouse pointer dead centered
> on the star trail ends and the sampled star in the three test images. I used your “magnifying glass curser to center
> on the three samples, then moved the curser grid with the keyboard direction keys, for ultimate precision. to get
> the curser dead center on the star or trail. That was a GREAT idea, as so very many of yours are,  in recent
> versions of PemPro.
>
>     The plan is to do an East side run, with the camera oriented as it was, and always is when I set up for a
> session. I’ll also pick a spot further away  from the prime meridian, since I was already crowding your default 5
> degree proximity for the tracking starting position’s initial user slew.
>
>     Finally, IIRC you once said that PEC being on or off  didn’t matter for the polar alignment process, as PEMPRO
> already compensates for it, during the analysis.  I always leave it turned OFF when starting PEMPRO – especially
> now, since this CP4 unit is under its first use since repair two years ago, so there is no valid PEC curve recorded
> in it.
>
>     Not to worry – PEMPRO is and always was,  a great tool, fun to use, provides a wealth of detail about the scope
> and controller. The program and I just have to come to terms on our sense of adjustment directions :-)
>
> Joe Z.
>
> From: Ray Gralak
> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 11:23 AM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
>
> Hi Joe,
>
> If you want to confirm your findings, and that you aren't getting fooled by something else like tube currents, try
> purposely offsetting the polar alignment by a large amount in both Alt and Az. Make sure you accurately perform
> steps 2 and 3, otherwise you might see the behavior you saw.
>
> I would try it myself with the latest version but have been socked in by the marine layer and smoke from fires. That
> said, I used PEMPro to tweak polar alignment just a couple weeks ago and the directions were not reversed for
> me.
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of PEMPro
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physicscom/apcc-pro
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
> > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 5:56 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
> >
> > Yes Ray.
> >
> >     We’re on the same page, and I’ve got my bearings.
> > It is a standard  “Push-Pull” system. Screwing-in the right side knob  (on the west side on an AP-1200),   where
> the
> > AZ adjuster is located on the AP-1200 North side of the pier, pushes  the mount’s base plate around,  away
> from
> > the pier-fixed  center post – and turns the entire mount counter-clockwise.
> >
> >     I’ve done it lots of times, and every time I do, I try to envisage what each turn of a knob results in.
> >
> > Joe.
> >
> > From: Ray Gralak
> > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 7:04 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
> >
> > Hi Joe,
> >
> > Just to be sure you are adjusting the correct knobs, for a 1200GTO, to rotate the mount clockwise, you tighten
> the
> > knob facing to the East. To rotate the mount counter-clockwise, you tighten the knob facing to the West. After
> each
> > adjustment, you should tighten all mount knobs so that you are measuring the drift in the state that the mount
> will
> > be in when you will be using it.
> >
> > -Ray Gralak
> > Author of PEMPro
> > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physicscom/apcc-pro
> > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
> > > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 3:10 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro..Suggestions for my AP600e?
> > >
> > > Hi Ray,
> > >
> > >     It was a very long night, so I must have redone PEMPRO about 5 or 6 times.  I could have made the same
> > > mistake in the lead up to the drift graph,  every time, but I doubt it I’m not new to PEMPRO use, but it is
> > infrequent.
> > > Luckily, the instructions are simple.
> > >
> > >     As Tom mentioned earlier, after a few tries following screen hints, it was obvious that doing so made the
> drift
> > > error progressively worse, so I reversed the logic, and turned the AZ “knobs” to rotate the mount towards the
> > other
> > > direction. This made it settle down, and using the reverse direction was then consistently better.
> > > By reversal, I mean that the entire run was giving contrary directions, as did the reruns after that. It wasn’t a
> logic
> > > reversal DURING a run.
> > >
> > >     At each correction, I looked down at the mount baseplate, and considered which knob would “push it
> towards
> > or
> > > away from the AZ post” in the direction for the mount to rotate, (horizontally in AZ), per the given instruction. I
> still
> > > “suspect” that this reversal of procedure may have to do with choosing one side of the meridian, while the
> > camera
> > > is either straight up, or inverted. But, that should have been determined automatically,  during the calibration
> > steps
> > > of clicking on the star trail, and the three star image targets.
> > >
> > >     PEMPRO worked fine for me a couple of years ago, using an earlier revision, but has also happened the
> weird
> > > way, at other times in the past. I have used several versions over more than a decade. I’ll continue to
> investigate
> > > its problem, or possibly mine. Perhaps I will discover a unique set of conditions that causes the logic  reversal.
> > >
> > >     Please stay safe out there Ray. We need you healthy at all times.
> > > Best regards,
> > > Joe Z.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Ray Gralak
> > > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 4:14 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro..Suggestions for my AP600e?
> > >
> > > Hi Joe,
> > >
> > > I have used PEMPro a number of times in the last few months on my 1100AE and 1200 mounts, and haven't
> > seen
> > > any direction reversals, but I can double check the next year (lol) that my California skies are clear enough.
> > > Assuming you went through the calibration steps correctly, is it possible you could have adjusted the wrong
> > > Azimuth knob?
> > >
> > > Also, being above or below the pole will not affect the Az direction at all.
> > >
> > > >     I also had problems with connecting the camera to the software (CCDSOFT) – kept getting the
> “Unavailable
> > > > ACTIVEX module” error, unless I run both the camera software (CCDSOFT) and PEMPRO-V3, “as ADMIN”.
> > The
> > > > website claims this is only necessary to do once, to register CCDSOFT’s Activex module – but that does
> NOT
> > > > seem to be the case. It has to be started  in Admin mode (before) starting PEMPRO,   every time.
> > >
> > > CCDSoft (and any other ActiveX control) should register itself when it is installed, which it doesn't. If it can't
> > register
> > > itself even when running as Administrator, then maybe there is reason. You might try changing the
> compatibility
> > > mode of CCDSoft to Windows 7.
> > >
> > > -Ray Gralak
> > > Author of PEMPro
> > > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physicscom/apcc-pro
> > > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joe Zeglinski
> > > > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 12:19 PM
> > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro..Suggestions for my AP600e?
> > > >
> > > > Hi Tom,
> > > >
> > > >     Funny that you should mention the odd “adjustment direction” misbehaviour running PEMPRO.
> > > >
> > > >     Like you, I have years of familiarity with PEMPRO, and it is actually fun to use. However, I spent hours
> last
> > > > night,  trying to get it to behave with my AP-1200/CP4. I quickly realized that I should do the opposite,  to the
> > > > direction it was asking me to adjust the AZ. Every time it said Clockwise rotation, I rotated the AZ COUNTER
> > > > clockwise, and that worked fine. Otherwise, as in your experience, following its suggestion, the gap just
> > widened
> > > > with every suggested direction adjustment.
> > > >
> > > >     I think the initial setup calibration  pointing to either your East side or West of the meridian, should
> > > automatically
> > > > determine if the camera ‘s vertical direction, Mine was upside down, during the run, pointing to   West of the
> > PM.
> > > > Next time out, I will rerun PEMPRO, but with the scope pointing to the East side of the PM, and see if the
> > > direction
> > > > to turn then becomes correct. As I recall, the older versions had “hockey sticks” on the drift graph, for us to
> help
> > > > specify the camera orientation. Now it is supposed to be automatic.
> > > >
> > > >     Ray, is it possible that without doing the DEC adjustment, the scope axis is pointing below or above
> Polaris,
> > > and
> > > > this makes it offer the contrary direction suggestions?
> > > >
> > > >     I also had problems with connecting the camera to the software (CCDSOFT) – kept getting the
> “Unavailable
> > > > ACTIVEX module” error, unless I run both the camera software (CCDSOFT) and PEMPRO-V3, “as ADMIN”.
> > The
> > > > website claims this is only necessary to do once, to register CCDSOFT’s Activex module – but that does
> NOT
> > > > seem to be the case. It has to be started  in Admin mode (before) starting PEMPRO,   every time.
> > > >
> > > >     It is a great program, but seems to have some “direction prompting” quirks, as we have both witnessed,
> and
> > > > which I will investigate further to double check my observations.
> > > >
> > > > Joe Z.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Tom Blahovici
> > > > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 2:08 PM
> > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > Subject: [ap-gto] Takes hours for me to polar align with PemPro...Suggestions for my AP600e?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > I am using an AP600e with a CP4 controller and am attempting to polar align with PemPro.
> > > >
> > > > I am quite familiar with the software. That is not an issue. However, how to use it properly is obviously not
> > > > apparent in my case.  I have spend at least 2 hours trying to get the polar alignment even within 1 arc
> minute.
> > > > I did the first alignment last week, and it seemed I was within 1 minute  I checked it yesterday, and it was a
> > > degree
> > > > off. I kept trying to adjust both azimuth and altitude, but the trend lines were never stable seeing to go all
> over
> > the
> > > > place.
> > > > It would show a line being off by 6 minutes and I would adjust the mount in the right direction only to find it
> was
> > > > even higher.  Not only that, when I did get it close, the trend line would be fine for the first 3 minutes only to
> > then
> > > > start slanting again.
> > > > It should not be this unstable.
> > > > A bit about the mount: It is mounted on a 10 inch diameter pier on top of a solid 3' x 3' concrete block that is
> 6
> > > feet
> > > > long buried in the ground. It has been there for 5 years or so. There is no flexing on the mounting at all.
> Rock
> > > > solid.  Scope is an FSQ106 with Moonlight nightcrawler with screw in adapters.  The drive has a very
> smooth 3
> > > arc
> > > > second peak to peak tracking.  With PEM, +-2.8.
> > > > I am using APCC standard and the pointing has been calibrated.
> > > > Any hints please?
> > > > Thanks, Tom
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>



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