Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues


Steven
 

That comment has to do with a long-time on-line chess game, not for you/forum. Sorry, it's wrong context, I've a busy day on email today.

In reply to your own query, you set up each object separately. I use the Autosave feature on Maxim and when finished with one object, move to it, train ATrack, an make the second one. It's that simple. The User Guide is a good start and will answer your queries without reference to chess moves. 😉 

S



From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 10:40 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
 
> Didn't take long, he's posed and ready to strike, eh. What reply do you think would be suitable?

ROFL - Just as I thought. Don't you have anything better to do than make up things? :-)

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 7:32 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>
> Didn't take long, he's posed and ready to strike, eh. What reply do you think would be suitable?
> S
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 10:19 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>
> Okay, you are using MaximDL or SkyX Pro, but you still need to script operations if you want to do multiple
> targets in one night.
> You said it "it does what it does easily" on multiple objects in a night. If I gave you three targets, what
> specifically would you
> have to do personally to drive the telescope, camera, filters, focuser, etc.? That is, what software are *you*
> using to handle
> taking those different exposure images (training and science) at multiple locations in the sky?
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro <https://www.astro-
> physics.com/apcc-pro>
> Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 7:00 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> >
> > That's right. I'm using this thru ASCOM, you can use SkyX also, and MaximDL. You just need to set up a
> > 'Watch Folder' for your images, ATrack and PinPoint do the rest. You can save your config profile for next
> time
> > if you like, or not, whatever you prefer.
> > S
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:52 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> >
> > It appears that ATrack doesn't actually take any images or control cameras, it just monitors a folder for new
> > images. Is that
> > correct?
> >
> > So,  which software package are you using to set up taking training images and your science images?
> >
> > -Ray Gralak
> > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 6:31 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > >
> > > I know at first glance this might seem complex but it is actually very quick and easy to do and it works very
> > > well. I am not an expert, but with less effort than a few minutes using ATrack it gives me excellent images
> > with
> > > little to no fuss, something I've been struggling with for years with good autoguiding programs, and it works
> > > every time, very robust. This is not an autoguiding program, it requires a very slightly modified mind-set,
> > that's
> > > all. I can speak from experience that it is simple and it works well and I now have no need at all to go back
> to
> > > autoguiding. Set-up is minor and the software doesn't use the PC registry, thus quick set-up and use. Read
> > thru
> > > the book, takes five minutes to see how to set it up. Calibration takes less time and effort than any
> > autoguiding
> > > software.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > S
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > > Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 8:28 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > >
> > > >        ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
> > > > necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The
> > > methodology
> > > > uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >        Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
> > > > 1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
> > > > software.
> > >
> > > Technically, it is closed loop tracking (auto-guiding) since it using feedback from images to adjust tracking.
> > >
> > > Also, it looks like there is some setup required to create a script or configure the training images for each
> > > target. Which software
> > > package are you using to do that?
> > >
> > > -Ray Gralak
> > > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 4:30 PM
> > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > >
> > > >        The 20 second images are "training" images used by ATrack to determine the drift - just like the
> > > > calibration images in PHD and Maxim, etc. You can use 5 second images, or as many or as long as you
> > > want.
> > > > And you can space them out however you like. For example, you can make 10 x 5 second images with a
> 1
> > > > minute gap between each. Or you can make 2 x 20 second images with a 5 minute gap between each.
> > > Ideally
> > > > though, the best is a sequence of 10 x 20 second consecutive images. The reason is because 20
> seconds
> > > > tends to smooth out seeing conditions. 10 images provides enough data to derive a good average of the
> > drift.
> > > > The more points the better. So it is up to the user to define what is best for the ATrack training sequence.
> > And
> > > > after that you begin your 5 or 10 minute science images, or whatever lengths you like.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >        Typically, the drift rate of a telescope does not change terribly much in 10 minutes. Since ATrack
> sets
> > > > the motors properly, it'll be fine. Obviously, if the seeing changes or something in the system 'jumps' the
> > > scope
> > > > (think "PE", or a physical bump), then it won't work properly, in that case, just re-train. You can insert a
> > > training
> > > > sequence prior to each 10 minute image if you want to ensure that it has the best rates set in the mount
> > > before
> > > > starting.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >        ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
> > > > necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The
> > > methodology
> > > > uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >        Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
> > > > 1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
> > > > software.
> > > >
> > > >        S
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > >
> > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > > > Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:31 AM
> > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > >
> > > > > It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then
> > another
> > > > > ~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image
> at
> > > the
> > > > > normal exposure you decide.
> > > >
> > > > Okay, that's what I understood from what Craig has said previously.
> > > >
> > > > But I think most imagers want longer exposures than 20 seconds. How would this work if a user wants to
> do
> > > 10
> > > > minute exposures?
> > > > Without an initial correction there might be enough star trailing in a 10-minute image that plate solves
> would
> > > fail
> > > > and no images
> > > > would ever get collected.
> > > >
> > > > I'm interested because APCC has a built-in declination-arc modeling feature. That is, it plate solves along
> > the
> > > > same declination at
> > > > different hour angles and produces a best-fit tracking rate model for each declination it samples. APCC
> > > > interpolates rates between
> > > > individual declination arcs to produce a really accurate tracking rate model throughout the sky and falls
> > back
> > > to
> > > > the regular
> > > > all-sky tracking rate model if the user goes out of the area of the sky where there were no declination arcs
> > to
> > > > rely on. I showed
> > > > this feature to a number of people at AIC last November.
> > > >
> > > > -Ray Gralak
> > > > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > > > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > > > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 10:17 PM
> > > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > >
> > > > > It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then
> > another
> > > > > ~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image
> at
> > > the
> > > > > normal exposure you decide. Each subsequent exposure is calculated according to the tracking
> > information
> > > > > gained from the previous image, and each one adjusts the motor speed as required to keep within the
> > limits
> > > > > that you configure. Once the initial tracking rate is set, subsequent corrections are fine adjustments
> made
> > > by
> > > > > the software. In order not to chase the seeing conditions, you can configure AT to make adjustments
> > every
> > > > nth
> > > > > image, as described in the User Guide (which is in abbreviated form at the moment, but more than
> > > adequate
> > > > > for our purposes).
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > S
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > >
> > > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak
> <groups3@...>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 11:04 PM
> > > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology
> > > incorporates
> > > > a
> > > > > > plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does
> what
> > > it's
> > > > > > supposed to do, easily.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, in a first time setup how is the tracking rate set for the very first image?
> > > > >
> > > > > -Ray Gralak
> > > > > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > > > > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > > > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > > > > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 6:27 PM
> > > > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology
> > > incorporates
> > > > a
> > > > > > plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does
> what
> > > it's
> > > > > > supposed to do, easily.
> > > > > > S
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak
> > <groups3@...>
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:15 PM
> > > > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This
> is
> > > > > > > unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Does that work if you are going to do multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think that type of application may be useful for certain types of telescopes that are hard to model,
> like
> > > > some
> > > > > of
> > > > > > the larger inexpensive truss tube scopes. If one is using a solid refractor the all-sky model that APCC
> > Pro
> > > > > > creates will give excellent results throughout the sky. I've posted images up to 30 minutes unguided
> at
> > > > > > 1.74"/pixel with round stars.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Ray Gralak
> > > > > > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > > > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > > > > > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > > > > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > > > > > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 2:15 PM
> > > > > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This
> is
> > > > > > > unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Steve
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > PS: The plate solve is very useful and helpful in getting accuracy - to the pixel.
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Donald Rudny
> > > > > > > <mkea13800@...>
> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 5:02 PM
> > > > > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks, Steven.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here's a link to the manual.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf
> <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > > > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > > > > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Don Rudny
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >        On May 28, 2020, at 10:42 AM, Steven Steven <steven447@...> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >                ATrack (Adaptive Tracking) has been around for a year doing the same thing and recently
> I
> > > > have
> > > > > > > switched to it for unguided imaging.  So if anyone wants to use ATrack while waiting for AP to add
> the
> > > > > > software
> > > > > > > to APCC then they should contact Craig Young at Crystal Lake Observatory.  The use of PinPoint is
> > > > > requierd,
> > > > > > > and that's easy.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >        From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Terri Zittritsch
> > > > > > > <theresamarie11@...>
> > > > > > >        Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:26 AM
> > > > > > >        To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > > > >        Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >        Roland, this looks exciting, any ETA for release?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >        This seems like a great feature for us mobile (non fixed installation) users.      Given how easy
> > and
> > > > fast
> > > > > > > this is, 5 minutes/hour of object tracking, will this be usable if you also have a PC connected (for
> > things
> > > > like
> > > > > > > plate solving) and do you use it with, or instead of, APCC?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >        Terri
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