Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues


Ray Gralak
 

Didn't take long, he's posed and ready to strike, eh. What reply do you think would be suitable?
ROFL - Just as I thought. Don't you have anything better to do than make up things? :-)

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 7:32 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Didn't take long, he's posed and ready to strike, eh. What reply do you think would be suitable?
S

________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 10:19 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Okay, you are using MaximDL or SkyX Pro, but you still need to script operations if you want to do multiple
targets in one night.
You said it "it does what it does easily" on multiple objects in a night. If I gave you three targets, what
specifically would you
have to do personally to drive the telescope, camera, filters, focuser, etc.? That is, what software are *you*
using to handle
taking those different exposure images (training and science) at multiple locations in the sky?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 7:00 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

That's right. I'm using this thru ASCOM, you can use SkyX also, and MaximDL. You just need to set up a
'Watch Folder' for your images, ATrack and PinPoint do the rest. You can save your config profile for next
time
if you like, or not, whatever you prefer.
S

________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:52 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

It appears that ATrack doesn't actually take any images or control cameras, it just monitors a folder for new
images. Is that
correct?

So, which software package are you using to set up taking training images and your science images?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro> <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 6:31 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

I know at first glance this might seem complex but it is actually very quick and easy to do and it works very
well. I am not an expert, but with less effort than a few minutes using ATrack it gives me excellent images
with
little to no fuss, something I've been struggling with for years with good autoguiding programs, and it works
every time, very robust. This is not an autoguiding program, it requires a very slightly modified mind-set,
that's
all. I can speak from experience that it is simple and it works well and I now have no need at all to go back
to
autoguiding. Set-up is minor and the software doesn't use the PC registry, thus quick set-up and use. Read
thru
the book, takes five minutes to see how to set it up. Calibration takes less time and effort than any
autoguiding
software.



S

________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 8:28 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The
methodology
uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.


Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
software.
Technically, it is closed loop tracking (auto-guiding) since it using feedback from images to adjust tracking.

Also, it looks like there is some setup required to create a script or configure the training images for each
target. Which software
package are you using to do that?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro> <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 4:30 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

The 20 second images are "training" images used by ATrack to determine the drift - just like the
calibration images in PHD and Maxim, etc. You can use 5 second images, or as many or as long as you
want.
And you can space them out however you like. For example, you can make 10 x 5 second images with a
1
minute gap between each. Or you can make 2 x 20 second images with a 5 minute gap between each.
Ideally
though, the best is a sequence of 10 x 20 second consecutive images. The reason is because 20
seconds
tends to smooth out seeing conditions. 10 images provides enough data to derive a good average of the
drift.
The more points the better. So it is up to the user to define what is best for the ATrack training sequence.
And
after that you begin your 5 or 10 minute science images, or whatever lengths you like.


Typically, the drift rate of a telescope does not change terribly much in 10 minutes. Since ATrack
sets
the motors properly, it'll be fine. Obviously, if the seeing changes or something in the system 'jumps' the
scope
(think "PE", or a physical bump), then it won't work properly, in that case, just re-train. You can insert a
training
sequence prior to each 10 minute image if you want to ensure that it has the best rates set in the mount
before
starting.


ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The
methodology
uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.


Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
software.

S



________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:31 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then
another
~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image
at
the
normal exposure you decide.
Okay, that's what I understood from what Craig has said previously.

But I think most imagers want longer exposures than 20 seconds. How would this work if a user wants to
do
10
minute exposures?
Without an initial correction there might be enough star trailing in a 10-minute image that plate solves
would
fail
and no images
would ever get collected.

I'm interested because APCC has a built-in declination-arc modeling feature. That is, it plate solves along
the
same declination at
different hour angles and produces a best-fit tracking rate model for each declination it samples. APCC
interpolates rates between
individual declination arcs to produce a really accurate tracking rate model throughout the sky and falls
back
to
the regular
all-sky tracking rate model if the user goes out of the area of the sky where there were no declination arcs
to
rely on. I showed
this feature to a number of people at AIC last November.

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro> <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>

-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 10:17 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then
another
~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image
at
the
normal exposure you decide. Each subsequent exposure is calculated according to the tracking
information
gained from the previous image, and each one adjusts the motor speed as required to keep within the
limits
that you configure. Once the initial tracking rate is set, subsequent corrections are fine adjustments
made
by
the software. In order not to chase the seeing conditions, you can configure AT to make adjustments
every
nth
image, as described in the User Guide (which is in abbreviated form at the moment, but more than
adequate
for our purposes).


S

________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak
<groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 11:04 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology
incorporates
a
plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does
what
it's
supposed to do, easily.
So, in a first time setup how is the tracking rate set for the very first image?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro> <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 6:27 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology
incorporates
a
plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does
what
it's
supposed to do, easily.
S

________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak
<groups3@gralak.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:15 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This
is
unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
Does that work if you are going to do multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky?

I think that type of application may be useful for certain types of telescopes that are hard to model,
like
some
of
the larger inexpensive truss tube scopes. If one is using a solid refractor the all-sky model that APCC
Pro
creates will give excellent results throughout the sky. I've posted images up to 30 minutes unguided
at
1.74"/pixel with round stars.

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
<https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro> <https://www.astro-
physics.com/apcc-pro>
Author of PEMPro V3: https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
<https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>


-----Original Message-----
From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 2:15 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This
is
unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!

Steve

PS: The plate solve is very useful and helpful in getting accuracy - to the pixel.
________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Donald Rudny
<mkea13800@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 5:02 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues

Thanks, Steven.

Here's a link to the manual.


https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
<https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>


Don Rudny



On May 28, 2020, at 10:42 AM, Steven Steven <steven447@hotmail.com> wrote:





ATrack (Adaptive Tracking) has been around for a year doing the same thing and recently
I
have
switched to it for unguided imaging. So if anyone wants to use ATrack while waiting for AP to add
the
software
to APCC then they should contact Craig Young at Crystal Lake Observatory. The use of PinPoint is
requierd,
and that's easy.



________________________________

From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Terri Zittritsch
<theresamarie11@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:26 AM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues


Roland, this looks exciting, any ETA for release?

This seems like a great feature for us mobile (non fixed installation) users. Given how easy
and
fast
this is, 5 minutes/hour of object tracking, will this be usable if you also have a PC connected (for
things
like
plate solving) and do you use it with, or instead of, APCC?



Terri

























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