Re: Mach2 Unguided testing continues


Steven
 

Didn't take long, he's posed and ready to strike, eh. What reply do you think would be suitable?
S


From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 10:19 PM
To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
 
Okay, you are using MaximDL or SkyX Pro, but you still need to script operations if you want to do multiple targets in one night.
You said it "it does what it does easily" on multiple objects in a night. If I gave you three targets, what specifically would you
have to do personally to drive the telescope, camera, filters, focuser, etc.? That is, what software are *you* using to handle
taking those different exposure images (training and science) at multiple locations in the sky?

-Ray Gralak
Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver


> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 7:00 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>
> That's right. I'm using this thru ASCOM, you can use SkyX also, and MaximDL. You just need to set up a
> 'Watch Folder' for your images, ATrack and PinPoint do the rest. You can save your config profile for next time
> if you like, or not, whatever you prefer.
> S
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:52 PM
> To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
>
> It appears that ATrack doesn't actually take any images or control cameras, it just monitors a folder for new
> images. Is that
> correct?
>
> So,  which software package are you using to set up taking training images and your science images?
>
> -Ray Gralak
> Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro <https://www.astro-
> physics.com/apcc-pro>
> Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 6:31 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> >
> > I know at first glance this might seem complex but it is actually very quick and easy to do and it works very
> > well. I am not an expert, but with less effort than a few minutes using ATrack it gives me excellent images
> with
> > little to no fuss, something I've been struggling with for years with good autoguiding programs, and it works
> > every time, very robust. This is not an autoguiding program, it requires a very slightly modified mind-set,
> that's
> > all. I can speak from experience that it is simple and it works well and I now have no need at all to go back to
> > autoguiding. Set-up is minor and the software doesn't use the PC registry, thus quick set-up and use. Read
> thru
> > the book, takes five minutes to see how to set it up. Calibration takes less time and effort than any
> autoguiding
> > software.
> >
> >
> >
> > S
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 8:28 PM
> > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> >
> > >        ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
> > > necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The
> > methodology
> > > uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.
> > >
> > >
> > >        Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
> > > 1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
> > > software.
> >
> > Technically, it is closed loop tracking (auto-guiding) since it using feedback from images to adjust tracking.
> >
> > Also, it looks like there is some setup required to create a script or configure the training images for each
> > target. Which software
> > package are you using to do that?
> >
> > -Ray Gralak
> > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 4:30 PM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > >
> > >        The 20 second images are "training" images used by ATrack to determine the drift - just like the
> > > calibration images in PHD and Maxim, etc. You can use 5 second images, or as many or as long as you
> > want.
> > > And you can space them out however you like. For example, you can make 10 x 5 second images with a 1
> > > minute gap between each. Or you can make 2 x 20 second images with a 5 minute gap between each.
> > Ideally
> > > though, the best is a sequence of 10 x 20 second consecutive images. The reason is because 20 seconds
> > > tends to smooth out seeing conditions. 10 images provides enough data to derive a good average of the
> drift.
> > > The more points the better. So it is up to the user to define what is best for the ATrack training sequence.
> And
> > > after that you begin your 5 or 10 minute science images, or whatever lengths you like.
> > >
> > >
> > >        Typically, the drift rate of a telescope does not change terribly much in 10 minutes. Since ATrack sets
> > > the motors properly, it'll be fine. Obviously, if the seeing changes or something in the system 'jumps' the
> > scope
> > > (think "PE", or a physical bump), then it won't work properly, in that case, just re-train. You can insert a
> > training
> > > sequence prior to each 10 minute image if you want to ensure that it has the best rates set in the mount
> > before
> > > starting.
> > >
> > >
> > >        ATrack can use each subsequent science image to monitor how things are going and re-center as
> > > necessary thereby avoiding accumulative errors. This can work in parallel with an AP model. The
> > methodology
> > > uses a plate solve of each image and gets information from each previous image. It is very effective.
> > >
> > >
> > >        Here's a 10 minute (not autoguided) image I made with ATrack a couple of days ago - 3% AR, using
> > > 1100GTO, no AE, TEC140 on the QHY9 cam. There are many more, and they're easy to obtain using this
> > > software.
> > >
> > >        S
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > > Sent: Friday, 29 May 2020 9:31 AM
> > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > >
> > > > It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then
> another
> > > > ~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image at
> > the
> > > > normal exposure you decide.
> > >
> > > Okay, that's what I understood from what Craig has said previously.
> > >
> > > But I think most imagers want longer exposures than 20 seconds. How would this work if a user wants to do
> > 10
> > > minute exposures?
> > > Without an initial correction there might be enough star trailing in a 10-minute image that plate solves would
> > fail
> > > and no images
> > > would ever get collected.
> > >
> > > I'm interested because APCC has a built-in declination-arc modeling feature. That is, it plate solves along
> the
> > > same declination at
> > > different hour angles and produces a best-fit tracking rate model for each declination it samples. APCC
> > > interpolates rates between
> > > individual declination arcs to produce a really accurate tracking rate model throughout the sky and falls
> back
> > to
> > > the regular
> > > all-sky tracking rate model if the user goes out of the area of the sky where there were no declination arcs
> to
> > > rely on. I showed
> > > this feature to a number of people at AIC last November.
> > >
> > > -Ray Gralak
> > > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 10:17 PM
> > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > >
> > > > It isn't set on the first image, it sets on the second one, so a short ~20 sec image is made first, then
> another
> > > > ~20 sec image is made, and the initial tracking corrections are then applied on the third science image at
> > the
> > > > normal exposure you decide. Each subsequent exposure is calculated according to the tracking
> information
> > > > gained from the previous image, and each one adjusts the motor speed as required to keep within the
> limits
> > > > that you configure. Once the initial tracking rate is set, subsequent corrections are fine adjustments made
> > by
> > > > the software. In order not to chase the seeing conditions, you can configure AT to make adjustments
> every
> > > nth
> > > > image, as described in the User Guide (which is in abbreviated form at the moment, but more than
> > adequate
> > > > for our purposes).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > S
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > >
> > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak <groups3@...>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 11:04 PM
> > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > >
> > > > > Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology
> > incorporates
> > > a
> > > > > plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does what
> > it's
> > > > > supposed to do, easily.
> > > >
> > > > So, in a first time setup how is the tracking rate set for the very first image?
> > > >
> > > > -Ray Gralak
> > > > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > > > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > > > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 6:27 PM
> > > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, it works at multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky. The methodology
> > incorporates
> > > a
> > > > > plate solve of each image and subsequent correction using data from the previous image. It does what
> > it's
> > > > > supposed to do, easily.
> > > > > S
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > >
> > > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Gralak
> <groups3@...>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:15 PM
> > > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is
> > > > > > unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
> > > > >
> > > > > Does that work if you are going to do multiple new targets in one night in different parts of the sky?
> > > > >
> > > > > I think that type of application may be useful for certain types of telescopes that are hard to model, like
> > > some
> > > > of
> > > > > the larger inexpensive truss tube scopes. If one is using a solid refractor the all-sky model that APCC
> Pro
> > > > > creates will give excellent results throughout the sky. I've posted images up to 30 minutes unguided at
> > > > > 1.74"/pixel with round stars.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Ray Gralak
> > > > > Author of APCC (Astro-Physics Command Center): https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro
> <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > > <https://www.astro-physics.com/apcc-pro>  <https://www.astro-
> > > > > physics.com/apcc-pro>
> > > > > Author of PEMPro V3:  https://www.ccdware.com
> > > > > Author of Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM Driver: https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver
> <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > > <https://www.siriusimaging.com/apdriver>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io [mailto:main@ap-gto.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven Steven
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 2:15 PM
> > > > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks Don, it's easy to use and I've been getting aspect ratios of around 2% to 6% regularly. This is
> > > > > > unprecedented with me. I set it up and go to sleep. Enjoy!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Steve
> > > > > >
> > > > > > PS: The plate solve is very useful and helpful in getting accuracy - to the pixel.
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Donald Rudny
> > > > > > <mkea13800@...>
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 5:02 PM
> > > > > > To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, Steven.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here's a link to the manual.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf
> <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > > > <https://forum.starkeeper.it/uploads/short-url/ikk1ph2GnqeBVLWNdbsui6rHZjH.pdf>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Don Rudny
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >        On May 28, 2020, at 10:42 AM, Steven Steven <steven447@...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                ATrack (Adaptive Tracking) has been around for a year doing the same thing and recently I
> > > have
> > > > > > switched to it for unguided imaging.  So if anyone wants to use ATrack while waiting for AP to add the
> > > > > software
> > > > > > to APCC then they should contact Craig Young at Crystal Lake Observatory.  The use of PinPoint is
> > > > requierd,
> > > > > > and that's easy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > >
> > > > > >        From: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io> on behalf of Terri Zittritsch
> > > > > > <theresamarie11@...>
> > > > > >        Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:26 AM
> > > > > >        To: main@ap-gto.groups.io <main@ap-gto.groups.io>
> > > > > >        Subject: Re: [ap-gto] Mach2 Unguided testing continues
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >        Roland, this looks exciting, any ETA for release?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >        This seems like a great feature for us mobile (non fixed installation) users.      Given how easy
> and
> > > fast
> > > > > > this is, 5 minutes/hour of object tracking, will this be usable if you also have a PC connected (for
> things
> > > like
> > > > > > plate solving) and do you use it with, or instead of, APCC?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >        Terri
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